Asian Swing 2017: Bejing/Tokyo & Shanghai

He looked fine in the match and post-match. There’s always a possibility but it has to be based on something we can see.

DECIMA wrote:

AceofDeath wrote:
Par for the course when Nadal loses to see that reaction in tennis forums. 

Perhaps, but so is stuff like this:

AceofDeath wrote:
He lost to a 36 year old with 4 kids! Hilarious lmfao

Nah, one is a fact and the other is pure speculation.

From this clip:



It's hard to conclude Nadal had serious problem with the knee.

He was leaning on it fine for thr BH.

The problem it seems was him standing too far back as he could not play with Fed toe to toe fast from the baseline.

Plus Fed played like....oh my word!

In the second ser, when the camera is behind Federer, the net clearance in his shots is RIDICULOUS!!!!!

That's made me decide I'm going to get a very good seat to watch him in O2 if he comes to play.

bogbrush wrote:He looked fine in the match and post-match. There’s always a possibility but it has to be based on something we can see.

You can have a problem but it may not affect you much during a match, as adrenaline is such a good pain reliever, hence I criticised the butthurt Nadal fan on that American tennis forum. But that doesn't mean it cant' impact on scheduling for rest of the year.
Last week I twisted my ankle mid-set; for the rest of the match my movement was not ideal but I didn't feel much pain because I was pumped to be playing. Then immediately after the match, and for the next 2 days I was limping while walking.
For me it's not about this match, Fed deserved to win, and it's not exactly the world's most important tournament; but I hope he schedules well for the rest of the year.
Both him and Federer have shown that ending a year early isn't necessarily the worst thing for the start of a new season- I have tickets for WTF but if it benefitted his chances for slams next year to give it a miss I'd sit through watching Goffin vs Busta for 2 and a half hours at the 02.

noleisthebest wrote:In the second ser, when the camera is behind Federer, the net clearance in his shits is RIDICULOUS!!!!!

Look I don't mind some love for Federer, but praising his faeces in this fashion is over the top.

DECIMA wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:In the second ser, when the camera is behind Federer, the net clearance in his shits is RIDICULOUS!!!!!

Look I don't mind some love for Federer, but praising his faeces in this fashion is over the top.

LOL!!!!

I'd better edit that...

They were saying how Nadal looked devastated. I just wonder whether he fancied skipping tournaments and the 800 points switch by winning today would have made that affordable.

We shall see.

He was moving around like lightning yesterday, so did he pick up something today?

bogbrush wrote:They were saying how Nadal looked devastated.

Who was saying that?

On Sky. I don’t look closely enough to see.

bogbrush wrote:On Sky. I don’t look closely enough to see.

Hmm that's not good

Anyway we'll see, as I said Nadal and Fed have both shown that a bit of a rest before a new season could work in one's favour, so as long as it's nothing too long term it's not the end of the world.

See, here's the painful truth:  The level of variety and intelligence on tour at the moment from players other than Murray, Federer, and Djokovic is so low that Nadal has breezed through.  He's simply deployed a "stand miles behind baseline and keep it in play" tactic... which isn't much different from his earlier tactic which was "keep it in play".  But he's being allowed to.  Look at where he was stood v Federer... he simply couldn't stand that far back because he knew Fed would volley and drop shot.  So instead, he had far less time.  Then you add onto that the fact Federer was standing so far forward.  

Nadal has skated by because of dumb and weak players. The second he meets anyone willing to take his time away, he's dust.  It's a shocking indictment of the tour that he's managed to win 2 slams this year and have success against the likes of Kyrgios and Cilic... players who should be leaving him dead in the water.   Once again, it's up to a 36 year old to show the world how painfully one dimensional Nadal is. 

As for injury.... *yawn*.

Daniel wrote:He's simply deployed a "stand miles behind baseline and keep it in play" tactic...

Just watch his matches though, it's simply not true. It's not even a case of opinions here, try and find full match videos of his matches, he's been dictating from the baseline.

It is true.  And the proof is in the pudding that he lost when he can't do it.

Daniel wrote:It is true.  And the proof is in the pudding that he lost when he can't do it.

Even Tenez, who hates Nadal, could observe that Nadal was actually playing aggressively from the baseline. I think you're getting confused between return of serve position and then what happens during the rally.
He didn't play well today, and Fed was superb, but professional tennis players do fluctuate so be careful of generalising from one match.
Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree.

And, correcting myself, actually he did try to stand that far back a few times... and it failed miserably.

Daniel wrote:See, here's the painful truth:  The level of variety and intelligence on tour at the moment from players other than Murray, Federer, and Djokovic is so low that Nadal has breezed through.  He's simply deployed a "stand miles behind baseline and keep it in play" tactic... which isn't much different from his earlier tactic which was "keep it in play".  But he's being allowed to.  Look at where he was stood v Federer... he simply couldn't stand that far back because he knew Fed would volley and drop shot.  So instead, he had far less time.  Then you add onto that the fact Federer was standing so far forward.  

This is very true.
He was much closer to the baseline today. He knows no one beats Federer 5 yards behind the baseline, not under these conditions. But the dilemma for Nadal is: in a game of toeing the baseline, he's not going to beat Federer either. Hence his worried face, that now lasts for 5 consecutive matches against Federer.
So yes: Nadal took advantage of the poor competition he faced recent months. He was very lucky he didn't ran into a fit Federer at the USO. Like he's been lucky for a while now there are no more true early hitters around like Davydenko and Nalbandian. 

Nadal is ranked number one because there are too little players who can take him out of his comfort zone: they basically  all play the same. Djoko plays similar too, but he lasts longer than anyone else, which eventually becomes uncomfortable for Nadal.

Tennis really dies  when Federer quits.

DECIMA wrote:Rafa refusing to talk about his knee in post match conference. Some french journalist claims he's limping:

https://twitter.com/carole_bouchard

We will see if he pulls out of Basel. That should tell us more.

The number 1 being beaten 4 times by the number 2 this year...that's not good for a number 1. Unlucky Federer got a back injury at the very wrong time. I woudl have fancied him winning Montreal. Not sure about the USO though as it was so slow.

Again, it confirms that had Fed learnt to play with a bigger frame and new strings, Nadal may have never beaten him. Regardless of the surface.

Just saw a 7min hilights. Federer did not even force his talent....played very well within himself.

On the positive for Nadal I saw him for once punch a FH volley dtl in his last game. Wasn't brilliant but a novelty for Nadal.

Tenez wrote:Just saw a 7min hilights. Federer did not even force his talent....played very well within himself.

On the positive for Nadal I saw him for once punch a FH volley dtl in his last game. Wasn't brilliant but a novelty for Nadal.

I saw it, too...bless 'im!

Give him another ten years on tour and he may even attempt a SABR!

What's amazing is that Federer beat Nadal with his left hand!

I have to say that reversing the picture like that makes Nadal look better

well done federer.... end of season turns interesting...  today and in their 4 meetings this year, federer was better (even in australia, as close as it was, fed always looked the better player)

shame fed didnt want to play clay this season... but probably was the better move for him.

nadal is doing great, he must not give up and try to beat him in wtf

Given the state of the field there’s no reason why they won’t play another three times soon.

The h2h might get very interesting if things stay like this!

I have the feeling nadal wont be playing much until london

If so then #1 might be back in the balance.

I think it means a lot to Nadal, I’d be most surprised if he sits anything out.

Had Pouille converted those MPs, the race would be on. But with 2000pts difference, it ain't gonna happen.

Yeah, even if Nadal does a Basel Final, Paris SF, WTF QF, keeps No1, even if Fed wins them all. (I think)

His chance might come at the AO....if Nadal loses early.

Interesting points from Fed's yesterday interview:

ROGER FEDERER: ... The way we both play, we play so very different from one another. Also, the attitude, the way we go through our lives, you know, it’s all very different in some ways.

Yeah, we have a similar mindset in the big moments. I came to realize that when we played doubles. There is no sense of urgency or panic, I don’t want to say ever, but, you know, you could tell we have been there many, many times before. He’s a great champ, and I enjoy playing against him, even though the head-to-head is maybe not in my favor. I think he’s definitely one of the guys that make me a better player. I don’t want to thank him for that, but he made me maybe rework my game and go back to the practice courts and think about what I could change maybe to become a better player.

I think for that I’m happy about the losses I took, you know. Took them on the chin and kept moving forward. It’s nice at this late stage of the career that we still have these matches going on.
========
That's one main reason players improve past their 27 cause there is no way you can stay on tour and dominate without improving. Those new guys are new teachers to the old guard.

I guess this year is very special with so many top players missing.....there might be a bit of "regression", or at least we coudl even have had a higher level.

That one for GP:
ROGER FEDERER: ...
So he almost has to play up on the baseline, but he’s been doing that almost perfectly here this week, you know. He’s maybe even surprised some of his opponents to play this good on the baseline and outplayed those guys.
======================
Until he tired versus Dimi and Cilic, he was certainly keeping close to the BL.

And that one for NITB

Fed: "...Especially with Laver Cup now, as well, the last year. It’s been great for both of us. I’m happy to call him a friend today."

Watching the highlight I know why Nadal struggles with Federer in particular.

We know Fed's BH is more powerful and consistent nowadays but It's Fed's shots' depth which makes the difference. The ball being deep (not necessarily angled) prevents Nadal from dictating and more importantly to send Federer in corner with his loopy cross court shots. Nadal is very good at making his opponents run on every shortish ball. Fed makes sure (and Djoko too to some extends) that Nadal is nailed further back due to the deep balls.

Tenez wrote:That one for GP:
ROGER FEDERER: ...
So he almost has to play up on the baseline, but he’s been doing that almost perfectly here this week, you know. He’s maybe even surprised some of his opponents to play this good on the baseline and outplayed those guys.
======================

Do you expect Federer to say Nadal faced weak competition recently?

Federer beat the so called unbeatable NAdal today easily...and like you said, Federer didn't even played very well...

There was no upgraded version of Nadal past few months. He simply wasn't tested enough.

BTW: the part Federer said about how Nadal played today was correct.

Tenez wrote:
And that one for NITB

How thoughtful!
(I'd've preferred if you answered my question on  the other thread...I even corrected all the typos just now)

Tenez wrote:
Fed: "...Especially with Laver Cup now, as well, the last year. It’s been great for both of us. I’m happy to call him a friend today."

Now I feel obliged to say something...

And it ain't ever going to be a cliche a la - "the two greats & legends of the sport have so much respect for each other"  etc etc....

(though there definitely is the element of camaradery of two seasoned warriors lonely out there...not many to share their experiences with...)

But a friend!!!
Hahaha - my foot!

Once more Federer is a little Swiss...who is so happy he now has Nadal in his pocket he could say anything...

And really, who cares...you are the one who idolises him, not me!

gallery play wrote:

Tenez wrote:That one for GP:
ROGER FEDERER: ...
So he almost has to play up on the baseline, but he’s been doing that almost perfectly here this week, you know. He’s maybe even surprised some of his opponents to play this good on the baseline and outplayed those guys.
======================

Do you expect Federer to say Nadal faced weak competition recently?

Federer beat the so called unbeatable NAdal today easily...and like you said, Federer didn't even played very well...

There was no upgraded version of Nadal past few months. He simply wasn't tested enough.

BTW: the part Federer said about how Nadal played today was correct.

Fed is saying that Nadal now stands closer to baseline. It started in 2013 probably but then he was not nearly as close and after that he became very inconsistent doing so. Now he seems to have adapted to it and causes trouble on fast courts to guys who woudl have beaten him back then (Cilic for instance).

He had a weak competition certainly but before 2013 anybody would be a challenge for him on the Asian tour. He could even lose to Garcia Lopez. This year he has been a challenge to anyone on any surface.

noleisthebest wrote:
And it ain't ever going to be a cliche a la - "the two greats & legends of the sport have so much respect for each other"  etc etc..

Yeah, I really can't stand those cliches (Sorry Naxroy) but I think he is right when he says Nadal made him a better player.

(though there definitely is the element of camaradery of two seasoned warriors lonely out there...not many to share their experiences with...)

But a friend!!!
Hahaha - my foot!

Camaradery, friendship....what's the difference? Both will remember this shared time as prob the best of their lives

And really, who cares...you are the one who idolises him, not me!

You obviously.

BTW my pseudo is not FITB! Who is the fan here?

God Mode points vs Rafa from this year:
 

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:And really, who cares...you are the one who idolises him, not me!

You obviously.

Hehe...not any more...I have given up on it. Fed loves Nadal and that's it. He is only 98% peRFect.

Tenez wrote:

BTW my pseudo is not FITB! Who is the fan here?

Weren't you Federer Express or stg like that once upon a time?

And anyway, fandom days...I really was a idiot, actually. Amazing what state of mind I allowed myself.
That hole is now firmly plugged.
The best I can do these days in be swept by winds of poetry for a tournament at a time...it happened for Fed in Oz...when I heard tam-tams from Africa. It was a strong call.
It's funny how it works!

But I assume you are more interested about Nole.

luvsports! wrote:God Mode points vs Rafa from this year:
 

Not bad!

It's the BH. One point on the green court towards the end where he hits it DTL after Nadal had him on a string - was really out of this world.
How did he do it...

remember the many posters who thought Fed's problem v Nadal was the mind? Who was right there again?

I would like to know in what way Ljubicic helped Federer.

It's got to be stg .SBH related.

gallery play wrote:

Tenez wrote:That one for GP:
ROGER FEDERER: ...
So he almost has to play up on the baseline, but he’s been doing that almost perfectly here this week, you know. He’s maybe even surprised some of his opponents to play this good on the baseline and outplayed those guys.
======================

Do you expect Federer to say Nadal faced weak competition recently?

Federer beat the so called unbeatable NAdal today easily...and like you said, Federer didn't even played very well...

There was no upgraded version of Nadal past few months. He simply wasn't tested enough.

BTW: the part Federer said about how Nadal played today was correct.

Spot on.  The "updated Nadal" is just the same Nadal from further behind the baseline against useless opposition who won't use s and v, or drop shots, or net play, or short serves.  As soon as even a 36 year old with variety in his arsenal came along, Nadal looked like a boy scout.  There is no mystery.  It was predictable.  That's why i predicted it.

Also, I don't care what Federer says, Tenez.  We can all see how far behind Nadal has been this year.  It's been abnormal.  I even took screen caps of it in US Open. He was FORCED to play away from the baseline v Federer. Your analysis always seems to be against reality and just plain observation.  I personally think you just want to look hip by being different... like all the conspiracy nuts.

naxroy wrote:well done federer.... end of season turns interesting...  today and in their 4 meetings this year, federer was better (even in australia, as close as it was, fed always looked the better player)

shame fed didnt want to play clay this season... but probably was the better move for him.

nadal is doing great, he must not give up and try to beat him in wtf

Shame that the entire Tour is useless when it comes to grass court season.  No Masters 1000.  Precious little else to enter.  And all through their careers... or the H2H Nadal fans are so obsessed about (cause it's about the only argument they can win) would now be firmly to Federer. 

Tenez wrote:

gallery play wrote:

Tenez wrote:That one for GP:
ROGER FEDERER: ...
So he almost has to play up on the baseline, but he’s been doing that almost perfectly here this week, you know. He’s maybe even surprised some of his opponents to play this good on the baseline and outplayed those guys.
======================

Do you expect Federer to say Nadal faced weak competition recently?

Federer beat the so called unbeatable NAdal today easily...and like you said, Federer didn't even played very well...

There was no upgraded version of Nadal past few months. He simply wasn't tested enough.

BTW: the part Federer said about how Nadal played today was correct.

Fed is saying that Nadal now stands closer to baseline. It started in 2013 probably but then he was not nearly as close and after that he became very inconsistent doing so. Now he seems to have adapted to it and causes trouble on fast courts to guys who woudl have beaten him back then (Cilic for instance).

He had a weak competition certainly but before 2013 anybody would be a challenge for him on the Asian tour. He could even lose to Garcia Lopez. This year he has been a challenge to anyone on any surface.

Yeah, but let's mix 2013 and recent months because then we're not talking about the same thing. We all know as Nadal's career went on he became a more aggressive player. That's not the issue. I just don't agree he won 15 consecutive matches recently because he plays closer to the baseline than before, like you kinda insist on. Because as you can see in the clip i posted from last year in Beijing against Dimi, Nadal played closer to the baseline than recently. Nadal won 15 matches because he faced rubbish.

Nadal is not a different player today (or this year), his court positions changes marginally, depending on the opponant. But if there's one very noticeable change (since the coming of Moya) it's that he returns waaaaaay behind the baseline against a reasonably strong serve. That also means that the first few shots in a return game are hit well behind the baseline. Hence my overall feel of his court positioning.
In all tournaments he played after RG it was quite obvious. He has so powerful shots though, whereby eventually by the time the points ends he's close to the baseline. But that's nothing new. 

Anyway, we're lucky Fed's still there, because -even at 36- he seems to be the only one who can beat Nadal this year.

gallery play wrote:Yeah, but let's mix 2013 and recent months because then we're not talking about the same thing. We all know as Nadal's career went on he became a more aggressive player. That's not the issue. I just don't agree he won 15 consecutive matches recently because he plays closer to the baseline than before, like you kinda insist on. Because as you can see in the clip i posted from last year in Beijing against Dimi, Nadal played closer to the baseline than recently. Nadal won 15 matches because he faced rubbish.

well we are discussing thin margins here. We agree he has been playing closer to the baselines over the last couple of years. My point is that he has become good at it. Nowadays he holds it and feels confident there which makes a huge difference cause in your clip he did not look confident (fit?) at all.

Nadal is not a different player today (or this year), his court positions changes marginally, depending on the opponant. But if there's one very noticeable change (since the coming of Moya) it's that he returns waaaaaay behind the baseline against a reasonably strong serve. That also means that the first few shots in a return game are hit well behind the baseline. Hence my overall feel of his court positioning.

In all tournaments he played after RG it was quite obvious. He has so powerful shots though, whereby eventually by the time the points ends he's close to the baseline. But that's nothing new. 

Again, I feel it is him getting used to being closer that makes the difference. And I agree his standing way far back on the return is also helping but that has given him the best stats on the return game, he is still holding his serve much better than in the past simply because he plays better from the baseline. It's not only since RG. He has been good at it the whole year. Without Federer he could have won 6 TMS and a calendar grand slam.

Nothing new in a way but still better at it.

Anyway, we're lucky Fed's still there, because -even at 36- he seems to be the only one who can beat Nadal this year.

Indeed....and he seems so confident he will beat him as well. Very weird. He also became better at handling this kind of games.
I thought his days of playing and winning 5 matches in a row were way behind him.

I think with Nadal, slower conditions have helped him, also that he has been allowed to take time between the points...add zero competition and no wonder his confidence is rocket high.

As I said, that was all it took for Pouille miss his match point in Beijing as opposed to how Nadal missed the same forehand sitter in their USO match last year.

My view the only difference this year is the confidence that came from the poor competition/easy draws and lenient umpiring.

And even with all that, he was losing sets and matches to Shapovalov etc...

The fact he is able to be more comfortable closer to the baseline is very important but not crucial.

But the pace at Shanghai has alaways been quite fast(ish). This is why I guess he never won it.

Here is a list of players he lost to in Shanghai since 2009:

Davydenko 2009
Melzer 2010
Mayer 2011
Delpo 2013
Lopez 2014
Tsonga 2015
Troiki 2016
I don't think he woudl have lost to those guys this year (Maybe to Davy and Delpo).