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Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

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Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by DECIMA on Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:14 pm

As a liberal I fully admit that 'left wingers' seem to be totally naive when it comes to the topic of Islam and religious terrorism.

The problem with many on the left has become putting feelings over facts, seeing Muslims as a minority and therefore deciding that all criticisms of Islam are bigoted and prejudiced.
Rather than pointing out that women and gays, who the 'left' normally stand up for, are oppressed in much of the middle east- their plight are ignored in this game of 'oppression Top Trumps'. And radical Islamic terrorism is never the fault of Islam, even though there is overwhelming evidence that there are some passages in the holy book which are violent, and jihadis can and do use these passages to recruit terrorists.

HOWEVER, I believe the response from someone like Donald Trump isn't just inaccurate, it's very dangerous and could actually exponentially increase the number of terrorists and jihadis in the US.
It is the 'Right', who are now putting feelings over pragmatic thinking:

Imagine you are a young 19 year old American Muslim. Things aren't going well for you in life economically, you are falling on tough times. Then a president of the United States bans your cousins and extended family from coming from abroad to even visit you. Maybe you had saved up some money and were planning to take your young cousin to Disneyland. But you can't, because your family are Muslim.
From Trump, this (ban muslim immigration) is not just inflammatory rhetoric, this is an inflammatory policy that could have lethal consequences.
Maybe Trump's friend Newt Gingrich, will have a powerful position in a Trump administration, and he will be able to implement his 'tough' policy of rounding up Muslims and interrogating them on whether they believe in Sharia, deporting the ones who answer in the affirmative and letting the others go free (a policy so dumb anyway it's beyond words). Imagine how as a young disenfranchised Muslim you would feel, how your attitude towards your country which you may have previously loved, may quickly change.

And THEN, as a young Muslim, what's the likelihood that if a preacher approached you and tried to radicalise you against the US, that they would be successful? Answer to yourself honestly.  
With needless inflammatory policies which punish people even before they've committed crimes (let's not forget our notion of British justice 'Innocent Until Proven Guilty), it will become much easier for preachers to influence young minds, and the number of jihadis could increase exponentially.

I've calculated and less than 0.000005% of Muslims living in the West in the past decade have successfully committed acts of terror.
Even if 'only' 1% of the 3 million Muslims in the US are radicalised to violence if Trump becomes president, and then 10% of them in turn commit acts of terrorism successfully there could be 3000 individual terrorists who successfully commit acts of terror on US soil. We all shit ourselves regularly over terrorism already, yet there are probably less than 100 individual terrorists who were successful in the West over the past decade in killing people. 3000 vs 100. This is speculation, but realistic, worst case scenario it's entirely possible there could be a 30x or greater risk of terrorism in the US if Trump is president. Again, it may not be that high, but the statistical likelihood will certainly be a in increase.
Now I'm not here to defend the left on this, and their rhetoric or policies, for reasons explained in the first paragraph.

But it's interesting to see those who seem to love 'facts over feeling' suddenly fall into the same trap on the other side, and support Trump because he sounds 'tough' on radical Islamic terrorism, while pragmatically his policies and rhetoric would only make the problem significantly worse.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:28 am

The Special One wrote:As a liberal I fully admit that 'left wingers' seem to be totally naive when it comes to the topic of Islam and religious terrorism.

The problem with many on the left has become putting feelings over facts, seeing Muslims as a minority and therefore deciding that all criticisms of Islam are bigoted and prejudiced.
Rather than pointing out that women and gays, who the 'left' normally stand up for, are oppressed in much of the middle east- their plight are ignored in this game of 'oppression Top Trumps'. And radical Islamic terrorism is never the fault of Islam, even though there is overwhelming evidence that there are some passages in the holy book which are violent, and jihadis can and do use these passages to recruit terrorists.
The Book is 4000 years old, the Coran is 1300 years old. Islamism and terrorism  is 10 to 15 years old. So clearly it has little to do with the Books.

Imagine you are a young 19 year old American Muslim. Things aren't going well for you in life economically, you are falling on tough times. Then a president of the United States bans your cousins and extended family from coming from abroad to even visit you. Maybe you had saved up some money and were planning to take your young cousin to Disneyland. But you can't, because your family are Muslim.
Yeah..that's one point. But for teh last 8 years they had a black president who not only did not stop the war in Irak, but started one in Lybia and Syria. And he just signed a $1.15billion weapon deal with the UAE who are in turn the first supporter economically and militarily of ISIS. So you young muslim is more likely to get mad at Obama than Trump.
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=78158


I have not read the rest of your post but until we realise that the West is actively supporting terrorism, there is no point criticizing others like Trump. I am not saying Trump will do better...but I am not sure how Bush and Obama coudl have done worse. Obama says that his greatest mistake in his years at teh the White House was not being able to prevent the Lybia's war....but supporting ISIS over Assad is as bad and it loos like he has not learnt any lesson.

I actually think he was not able to prevent all those wars....simply because he has little power despite being teh president of USA. ..and I don't think Trump will have any more power. Hillary is just madness.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Daniel on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:15 am

Apologist nonsense, as usual.  In the short run - yes it probably will.  In the long run - no it definitely will not.

Islam won't be beaten by just making concessions to it and trying to appease it.  Appeasing any deadly ideology is the dumbest thing anyone can do - as the world found out in 1939. Europe has already tried coexisting with Islam once and it didn't work - because Islam isn't like any other religion and it will never ever be truly peaceful.

France has had 250 deaths in 18 months thanks to people like you running around telling people to have kids gloves and it will all go away. Trump doesn't want to admit nutcases into the country from backward states - and Hillary does.  Reflect on that.  Because sooner or later people will lose patience and all Muslims will pay the price of it.


Last edited by FedererKing on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by DECIMA on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:18 am

Tenez wrote:
The Book is 4000 years old, the Coran is 1300 years old. Islamism and terrorism  is 10 to 15 years old. So clearly it has little to do with the Books.
Nope, it isn't 10-15 years old, you need to do a bit more research on this topic. But don't want to get into a history debate, we can have that later.


Tenez wrote:
Yeah..that's one point. But for teh last 8 years they had a black president who not only did not stop the war in Irak, but started one in Lybia and Syria. And he just signed a $1.15billion weapon deal with the UAE who are in turn the first supporter economically and militarily of ISIS. So you young muslim is more likely to get mad at Obama than Trump.
I don't doubt that Western foreign policy has helped radical preachers.
But for Muslims living in western countries, I think the combination of the foreign policy over the last decade and inflammatory rhetoric form likes of Trump.. it would be a toxic mix and likely to cause huge increase in radicalisation.
Keep in mind that in the west, over the past decade, less than 0.000005% of Musims have committed acts of terror successfully where innocents die. We need a sense of perspective, during Obama's presidency in the US in 8 years less than 200 people died due to radical Islamic terrorism, it could be exponentially worse.

As for the rest of your post, you know where I stand there in disagreement with you, but will leave that for now, this post was mainly aimed at FedKing and other Trump supporters who are convinced he will 'solve' radical Islamic terrorism just because he talks tough.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Daniel on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:19 am

Please just look through history at appeasement and then stop posting. Trump is not going to be the ultimate saviour, but he is a step in the right direction away from appeasing ridiculous leftists who allowed this crap religion and its demented followers to flourish in the West. Trump is also right that Obama's pathetic leadership has enabled IS and other whackos.

The choice between Hillary and Trump is easy to make. It's Trump every time.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by DECIMA on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:25 am

FedererKing wrote:Apologist nonsense, as usual.  In the short run - yes it probably will.  In the long run - no it definitely will not.
Is your apologist line towards me or Tenez? Not sure what I apologised for here.
I'm not sure I qualify as an apologist given every time I argue about this topic with my left wing friends, I am branded an 'Islamophobe'.
You acknowledge that in the short run it will cause more terrorism? So you agree with me in the short term, ok.
Why not the long term? Trump is not trying to deport all the Muslims in the US, they will still be living there, more than 3 million now.
I believe the percentage who are radicalised will be far greater than '2x' the previous percentage before Trump. And once they are radicalised, they may stay radicalised for a while. And it will take an awfully long while before the US Muslim population doubles due to immigration, that would be an increase of another 3 million (or maybe more if you take into account their birth rate). So in both the 'short term' and throughout the lifetimes of these radicalised people, the risk will be greater.
It's not just short term FK, it's long term.

The choice between Hillary and Trump is easy to make. It's Trump every time.
You are putting feelings over pragmatism. You don't like Muslims, and Trump is the one who is most negative when talking about Muslims, ok. But Trump's rhetoric and policies will cause far more radicalisation than Hillary.
To reiterate the point I just made in case you didn't understand it, the percentage increase in those radicalised will almost certainly be greater than the percentage increase in Muslim population due to immigration in the next 4/8 years (of Trump's term). And these people would be radicalised for their lifetimes. You're throwing logic out of the window.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Daniel on Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:31 am

http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/the-lefts-dangerous-denial-about-radical-islam/

All the Left is good for is wrecking and denying.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by DECIMA on Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:58 am

I said in the OP I'm not defending the left.

Some people read arguments with an open mind, but you seem totally close minded to any logic or rational reasoning on this topic. Getting angry and emotional isn't a substitute for reasoning and debating.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:22 pm

i personally think that the problem lies more with the muslims then what trump is saying.
dont get me wrong,to try and ban an entire religion is completely ridiculous as its impossible to even determine what any single person personally believes just by looking at them but at the same time its obvious for anyone to understand that its nothing personal anf that his motive is nothing more then to try and make a country safer 
of course  there is the possibility that enforcing such a policy will only provoke those muslims who already feel discriminated against but this is where i think the muslims are really at fault
their general silence in acts of religiously motivated terror attacks does them no favour
if the world saw more muslims making a stand against terror groups like IS or saw more reaction from muslims as seen with the brutal murder of the french priest i think that many people including someone like trump would have a different point of  view regarding muslims as a whole 
ultimately you should protect what you believe it and it just doesnt seem like enough is being done by muslims to defend their religion from the actions of extremist
muslims also tend to alienate themselves,they dont seem to want to integrate into western society and a lot of the times expect the country that they have adopted to adapt to their way of life 
if you want to live under sharia law,thats fine...you can go back to live in the countries you originally came from that enforces sharia law

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:54 pm

Veejay wrote:i personally think that the problem lies more with the muslims then what trump is saying.
dont get me wrong,to try and ban an entire religion is completely ridiculous as its impossible to even determine what any single person personally believes just by looking at them but at the same time its obvious for anyone to understand that its nothing personal anf that his motive is nothing more then to try and make a country safer 
of course  there is the possibility that enforcing such a policy will only provoke those muslims who already feel discriminated against but this is where i think the muslims are really at fault
their general silence in acts of religiously motivated terror attacks does them no favour
if the world saw more muslims making a stand against terror groups like IS or saw more reaction from muslims as seen with the brutal murder of the french priest i think that many people including someone like trump would have a different point of  view regarding muslims as a whole 
ultimately you should protect what you believe it and it just doesnt seem like enough is being done by muslims to defend their religion from the actions of extremist
muslims also tend to alienate themselves,they dont seem to want to integrate into western society and a lot of the times expect the country that they have adopted to adapt to their way of life 
if you want to live under sharia law,thats fine...you can go back to live in the countries you originally came from that enforces sharia law

What have muslims got to do with a few fools who live their lives like dogs and then suddenly commit atrocities in the name of a religion they never practiced? And don't forget that 95% of ISIS victims are actually muslims.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by DECIMA on Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:06 pm

Some good points Veejay, I would just add this-
There have been quite a few Muslims who hit out very strongly not just at ISIS but at Islamists in general, people like Maajid Nawaz. But unfortunately they don't get as much coverage.
People on the left like seeing all Muslims as victims so won't want anyone who says it is linked with religion, while TV shows who like sensationalist people and lots of 'views' will bring on Anjem Choudry.

Also Veejay, did you agree with what I said in the article, regarding a potential significant increase in terrorism if a leader with inflammatory rhetoric like Trump wins power?

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:50 pm

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:i personally think that the problem lies more with the muslims then what trump is saying.
dont get me wrong,to try and ban an entire religion is completely ridiculous as its impossible to even determine what any single person personally believes just by looking at them but at the same time its obvious for anyone to understand that its nothing personal anf that his motive is nothing more then to try and make a country safer 
of course  there is the possibility that enforcing such a policy will only provoke those muslims who already feel discriminated against but this is where i think the muslims are really at fault
their general silence in acts of religiously motivated terror attacks does them no favour
if the world saw more muslims making a stand against terror groups like IS or saw more reaction from muslims as seen with the brutal murder of the french priest i think that many people including someone like trump would have a different point of  view regarding muslims as a whole 
ultimately you should protect what you believe it and it just doesnt seem like enough is being done by muslims to defend their religion from the actions of extremist
muslims also tend to alienate themselves,they dont seem to want to integrate into western society and a lot of the times expect the country that they have adopted to adapt to their way of life 
if you want to live under sharia law,thats fine...you can go back to live in the countries you originally came from that enforces sharia law

What have muslims got to do with a few fools who live their lives like dogs and then suddenly commit atrocities in the name of a religion they never practiced? And don't forget that 95% of ISIS victims are actually muslims.
the common denominator is the religion itself,thats what links the two together 
while i understand that someone who commits terror attacks in the name of islam may not be regarded by other muslims as a true muslim,both parties still believe and worship the same god
so unfortunately the word muslim includes extremists

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:05 pm

The Special One wrote:Some good points Veejay, I would just add this-
There have been quite a few Muslims who hit out very strongly not just at ISIS but at Islamists in general, people like Maajid Nawaz. But unfortunately they don't get as much coverage.
People on the left like seeing all Muslims as victims so won't want anyone who says it is linked with religion, while TV shows who like sensationalist people and lots of 'views' will bring on Anjem Choudry.

Also Veejay, did you agree with what I said in the article, regarding a potential significant increase in terrorism if a leader with inflammatory rhetoric like Trump wins power?
of course i think that trumps comments would seriously offend any muslim any person regardless of race or religion would feel discriminated against 
the natural result would be for someone to turn extreme,you see this in any culture,when people get fed up they turn extreme
but i do believe that muslims can do more to change the perception people have of them
i dont know if the root of the problem is the fact that many alienate themselves and dont seem to want to integrate but
the truth is that the majority of americans especially in the mid west and the south would be completely ignorant as to what a normal muslim person is like
when you say the word muslim to that demographic the immediate reaction would = terrorist,anyone who wears a burka or traditional clothes= muslim
not many people will think of someone like the major of london sadiq khan

i actually had a funny experience about a year ago when i witnessed a few american tourists in knightsbrige  running like mad when they saw a bunch of  women wearing burkas in walking  down the road
obviously their first thought was that they were suicide bombers..
for a londoner thats pretty normal,but for someone coming from the sticks somewhere,its very different

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:20 pm

Veejay wrote:the common denominator is the religion itself,thats what links the two together
 That's wrong. It's too simple. Do most Christians feel responsible for new born christian GW Bush wars and the 1million death it brought? No. I personally do not identify with this guy who served the interest of a minority in the name christianity and its values. I did not see many Christians demo in the street when we started to bomb Lybia and Syria to bring again our democratic values...along with death and chaos.
If I perpetrate an atrocity tomorrow in the name of a religion I never practice does not make that religion responsible for anything. Islam is very clear about not committing suicide for instance...All those ISIS guys are ready to blow themselves to spread terror and death. Comletely opposite to the religion.
while i understand that someone who commits terror attacks in the name of islam may not be regarded by other muslims as a true muslim,both parties still believe and worship the same god
so unfortunately the word muslim includes extremists
Again. That's wrong. You cannot worship a God while doing exactly the opposite He told you to do. Just read the Coran you will see it is a million miles away from ISIS. Quite the opposite in fact.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by DECIMA on Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:58 pm

Tenez wrote:
while i understand that someone who commits terror attacks in the name of islam may not be regarded by other muslims as a true muslim,both parties still believe and worship the same god
so unfortunately the word muslim includes extremists
Again. That's wrong. You cannot worship a God while doing exactly the opposite He told you to do. Just read the Coran you will see it is a million miles away from ISIS. Quite the opposite in fact.
Please Tenez, you need to do more research on this.

Do most Muslims follow the path of violence that ISIS suggests? No, absolutely not.
Are the vast majority of Muslims against ISIS? Yes, absolutely.

But is everything in the Koran against violence for religious reasons, as ISIS believe is right? Nope, I'm afraid not.
Again, you seem to have blindly bought the left wing whitewashing on this topic, rather than do any actual research.
The Koran has plenty of verses with violence against 'unbelievers' (which can't be explained away by context), and it also calls for those who leave the religion to face the death penalty. This isn't my opinion, this is fact, if you challenge me I can go and get the quotes.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:09 pm

im not saying that muslims should take responsibility,be blamed or be responsible for the actions of the extremists,what i am saying is that if they disagree wth the actions then they should stand up to it and denounce it more,that they should do more to exclude or distance themselves from those attacks and defend their religion by pointing out that that isnt what they believe their religion is about,
their constant silence in such times leads people to think either they dont care or perhaps they quietly agree

of course in some cases there have been muslims clerics who have done that but how often do you see muslims protesting against these attacks?
we saw people from christian countries protesting the wars in iraq and afghanisten even thoosegh the wars werent fought "per say" in the name of christianity,sure bush pandered up to the reborns and told then that god told him to go free the iraqis,but the bible was never really used to justify killing the way the quoran has been in recent terror attacks

when people worshiping the same god and reading the same religious texts how often are those texts interpreted,preached,understood or practised in many different ways?
just look at all the different versions of christianity,all based on the same book,same god,same teachings yet all interpreted in so many different way and everyone believes that their interpretation is the right way,if they didnt believe that their version or interpretation was right then there would only be one version or type of christianity 

all i am trying to say is that if the muslims reacted more in the way that they did when the french priest was murdered,then i believe more people would differentiate between extremists and decent law abiding citzens who just happen to be muslim
i also think that more people would warm up to islam or muslims too cause at the moment the majority of people that i know see it as more of a militant backwards religion because of the actions of a few extremists


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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by ... on Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:11 pm

Sorry, nothing to do with politics, but I fell I need to say this.

Islam is a religion of fear.
Mohamed is The false prophet. (Rev. 13)

Delete this comment if you think it contravenes any house rules, I'm fine with it.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:42 am

noleisthebest wrote:Sorry, nothing to do with politics, but I fell I need to say this.

Islam is a religion of fear.
Mohamed is The false prophet. (Rev. 13)

Delete this comment if you think it contravenes any house rules, I'm fine with it.

And the Jews also believe Jesus is the false prophet.

Who are you NITB to sort the true from the flase prophets?

I have no such presumption.....but I can sort an idiot using religion to polarise the world from true seekers. And the sad thing nowadays is that many are fooled.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by ... on Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:09 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Sorry, nothing to do with politics, but I fell I need to say this.

Islam is a religion of fear.
Mohamed is The false prophet. (Rev. 13)

Delete this comment if you think it contravenes any house rules, I'm fine with it.

And the Jews also believe Jesus is the false prophet.



Who are you NITB to sort the true from the flase prophets?

I have no such presumption.....but I can sort an idiot using religion to polarise the world from true seekers. And the sad thing nowadays is that many are fooled.
You will find out on the Judgement Day, hopefully before.
In the meantime, keep seeking.

Mat. 7

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:28 am

Same mistake as all those religious people make (Jews, Christians, Muslims....etc...).

Prophetes unite, people divide.

One doesn't have 2 billion followers 1400 years later being a fake. Try your own sect and we will see how many people will still remember and worship you in a thousand years.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by ... on Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:45 am

Light and darkness cannot mix. It is the darkness that cannot comprehend light, not the other way round.

John 14:6

Jesus said unto him: "I am The Way, The Truth and The Light. No man comes to the Father but through Me.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:15 am

noleisthebest wrote:Light and darkness cannot mix. It is the darkness that cannot comprehend light, not the other way round.
It's one thing to throw quotes, its another to understand its meaning.


Jesus said unto him: "I am The Way, The Truth and The Light. No man comes to the Father but through Me.
And that's why the Koran talks so much about Issa (Jesus)!

But then again, "All paths lead to Rome". You see. It's easy to throw quotes that suits an argument.  Christians have been divided for centuries....which ones are right? Protestants, Church of England? Cathilics? Othodox? Jehovah? Mormons?....Muslims have 77 sects...if not more.

..But Jesus came to add to Moses and Mohamed to Jesus. Those 3 were not at war with each others.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by ... on Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:52 am

Meditate on these words:


Gospel of John, first chapter

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[b]
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[e] of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[f] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”
20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”
21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
And he answered, “No.”
22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”
23 He said: “I am
‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Make straight the way of the Lord,”’[size=10][g]
[/size]
as the prophet Isaiah said.”
24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”
28 These things were done in Bethabara[h] beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”
32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:20 am

And who is the Prostitute of Babylon? The one who slept with the kings of earth?

Meditate!

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by ... on Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:26 pm

Tenez wrote: And who is the Prostitute of Babylon? The one who slept with the kings of earth?

Meditate!



Catholic church/Vatican.
Beast sat on seven hills (Rome).

Pope being the antichrist.

ps

Phillipians 4:8


8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:28 pm

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:the common denominator is the religion itself,thats what links the two together
 That's wrong. It's too simple. Do most Christians feel responsible for new born christian GW Bush wars and the 1million death it brought? No. I personally do not identify with this guy who served the interest of a minority in the name christianity and its values. I did not see many  Christians demo in the street when we started to bomb Lybia and Syria to bring again our democratic values...along with death and chaos.
If I perpetrate an atrocity tomorrow in the name of a religion I never practice does not make that religion responsible for anything. Islam is very clear about not committing suicide for instance...All those ISIS guys are ready to blow themselves to spread terror and death. Comletely opposite to the religion.  
while i understand that someone who commits terror attacks in the name of islam may not be regarded by other muslims as a true muslim,both parties still believe and worship the same god
so unfortunately the word muslim includes extremists
Again. That's wrong. You cannot worship a God while doing exactly the opposite He told you to do. Just read the Coran you will see it is a million miles away from ISIS. Quite the opposite in fact.
I dont disagree with what youre saying,but these terrorists are claiming to be muslims and are carrying out the attacks in the name of islam while trying to use the quoran to justify it 

i think that the biggest problem with trumps comments is ignorance
we live in a world and society full of labels and stereotypes 
to a lot of people ( and most likely trump too ) the word muslim = people who wear traditional clothes who believe that their faith or god expects them to kill all unbelievers,terrorist,suicide bombers.. just like to a lot of people the word gay = paedophiles,priests who abuse boys,rapists,people who are sexually perverted 

i think that the muslim community could do more to change peoples perception of them,the reaction of the muslims community in france towards the murdered priest was definitely a step in the right direction in my opinion

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:44 pm

Veejay wrote:I dont disagree with what youre saying,but these terrorists are claiming to be muslims and are carrying out the attacks in the name of islam while trying to use the quoran to justify it 
But doing (or pretending doing) something in" the name of "..doesn't mean the "name of" is responsible. It is simple logique. If it was written in the Koran that you have to kill your neighbour, then fine....but Islam is very much against violence, believe it or not. I actually think the very purpose of ISIS, financed and supported by the West, is actually to kill a maximum of muslims (which it does at great scale) and portray the religion in its worse possible way to polarise people. "We" have spread chaos in the middle East and now we are simply financing those "Dogs of Hell" (extremists) as they are described in the Koran.

i think that the biggest problem with trumps comments is ignorance
we live in a world and society full of labels and stereotypes 
to a lot of people ( and most likely trump too ) the word muslim = people who wear traditional clothes who believe that their faith or god expects them to kill all unbelievers,terrorist,suicide bombers.. just like to a lot of people the word gay = paedophiles,priests who abuse boys,rapists,people who are sexually perverted 
Maybe though I think Trump is not that stupid. He is just trying to win elections and tries to bring as many unsatisfied and ignorant people as possible. No different than what Clinton is doing she just worked out that teh people most likely to vote for her woudl simply think differently. Hillary's change of views over decades is very well documented. It's all about getting to the top (or bottom if you ask me).

i think that the muslim community could do more to change peoples perception of them,the reaction of the muslims community in france towards the murdered priest was definitely a step in the right direction in my opinion
It's not easy for Muslims. They are squeezzed between the dogs of Hell and the millions of Westerners who do not wish to distinguish between Muslims and those who use Islam to do the worst possible things. To be fair we (the media) don;t make a huge effort in the West to distinguish between the 2.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:26 pm

yes it doesnt mean that "the name of" is responsible the responsibility lies solely with the culprits 
unfortunately people still link it to islam because the terrorists claim that they are doing it in the name of islam,even though they may be wrong,thats just the way it is which is why i think that more needs to be done by the muslims community to distance themselves from terrorists who claim to be muslims and use the quoran to justify their atrocities 
every time there is a terrorist attack of such nature the same questions are always asked...
"why dont muslims do more to de-weed and prevent extremists from radicalising muslims" 
"why dont we hear more muslims denounce these attacks and make a stand against terrorist attacks in the name of islam" 

i am also one of those who is inclined to believe that isis is financed and supported by the west 

of course trump is saying a lot of things just to get votes and be elected,it seems in this case he is pandering up to the ignorant americans in much the same way as bush did to the evangelicals

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:38 am

Veejay wrote:i am also one of those who is inclined to believe that isis is financed and supported by the west 
It cannot be clearer. The West and the US in particular (I mean those in power in the US - and it might not even be the presidents) have spread chaos everywhere in teh Muslim world except nations which support extreme islamism (UAE, Kuwait, etc...). They are supporting those very regimes that are anti-democratic while they claim to want to spread democracy in those secular countries when they only destroyed them and enraged people there.

If I were a muslim, I woudl not demonstrate against those terrorist acts made in the name of Islam...simply cause I know (and they know too) who is behind, and know the purpose.

You see, you seem to agree that it is the West that is responsible for financing those dogs of Hell but you do not do much either to sort the problem on our side. So why would Muslim be sorting out something they are not responsible in the first place.

Remember before the US went to mess up teh Middle East after WW2, there was hardly any problem with muslims and they were all turning secular and democratic....back then the problems were actually in the West again as we were constantly fighting with each others. So maybe we are messing everything around us. The good news is since we mess around in the middle east we have been at peace in the West....though I feel it is going to come back to haunt us with a vengence.


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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by ... on Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:16 am

There was A LOT of prloblems with Muslims well before WW2.

What were the Turks/Ottoman Empore doing in Serbia/Europe in the 14h century?

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Tenez on Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:25 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote: And who is the Prostitute of Babylon? The one who slept with the kings of earth?

Meditate!



Catholic church/Vatican.
Beast sat on seven hills (Rome).

Pope being the antichrist.

But don't believe the protestant or Orthodox are any better.

I don't meditate. My dreams and common sense have guided me fine so far.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by ... on Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:52 am

No need for mocking.

Meditate means to think and dwell on.

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:41 pm

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:i am also one of those who is inclined to believe that isis is financed and supported by the west 
It cannot be clearer. The West and the US in particular (I mean those in power in the US - and it might not even be the presidents) have spread chaos everywhere in teh Muslim world except nations which support extreme islamism (UAE, Kuwait, etc...). They are supporting those very regimes that are anti-democratic while they claim to want to spread democracy in those secular countries when they only destroyed them and enraged people there.

If I were a muslim, I woudl not demonstrate against those terrorist acts made in the name of Islam...simply cause I know (and they know too) who is behind, and know the purpose.

You see, you seem to agree that it is the West that is responsible for financing those dogs of Hell but you do not do much either to sort the problem on our side. So why would Muslim be sorting out something they are not responsible in the first place.

Remember before the US went to mess up teh Middle East after WW2, there was hardly any problem with muslims and they were all turning secular and democratic....back then the problems were actually in the West again as we were constantly fighting with each others. So maybe we are messing everything around us. The good news is since we mess around in the middle east we have been at peace in the West....though I feel it is going to come back to haunt us with a vengence.

isis is definitely the boogyman bin laden of today,which is why always ive been very suspicious of its legitimacy and who is really behind it
but regardless of whether there are also independent terror attacks in the name of islam which have no affiliation to isis,if hypothetically the rothschilds were using christianity to provoke terror i am sure many christians across the board would stand up and defend their religion,speak out against it and try to distance themselves from that
i wouldnt be happy to see my religion being used as a scape goat or to be used for any political agenda,so why are so many muslims complacent regardless of who is using islam to justify terror attacks and atrocities 

the problems in the middle east started once the state of isreal was formed...
very interesting documentary to see of you get a chance to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plHIwhqbZMs

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:46 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote: And who is the Prostitute of Babylon? The one who slept with the kings of earth?

Meditate!



Catholic church/Vatican.
Beast sat on seven hills (Rome).

Pope being the antichrist.

ps

Phillipians 4:8


8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
you think that the pope is the antichrist NITB?
some people actually think that the anti chritst will be jewish because he will bring peace to the middle east the jews will believe that he is their messiah
of course there is also the satanic "black pope" who many people believe to be the most powerful person in the world

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by ... on Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:40 pm

Veejay wrote:
you think that the pope is the antichrist NITB?
some people actually think that the anti chritst will be jewish because he will bring peace to the middle east the jews will believe that he is their messiah
of course there is also the satanic "black pope" who many people believe to be the most powerful person in the world

I am not sure about who the antichrist is/will be.
Revelation 13 is a very tough chapter.

======================================================
Rev. 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those[e] who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[f] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

=======================================================



He will appear in end times which have not yet begun.

I personally am not obsessed by that side. The main thing is to be ready to meet your Maker/Judgement Day whenever it may come.

I don't look forward to future as it s going to get rapidly worse, unbearable almost.



=======================================================

Matt. 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[b] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

=======================================================

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by DECIMA on Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:40 am

And I thought discussions on the anti-christ were only on the tennis section of this forum!

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

Post by Veejay on Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:19 am

are you calling your idol the anti christ amri? lol
dont blame you he certainly behaves like one

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Re: Why Trump's 'tough' stance on radical Islam... could lead to more terrorism

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