The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Tenez wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/31949668

Interesting..Odesnik getting another doping ban...a life time one this time. And again, steroids and other substances were part of the cocktail.

Woudl be interesting if he starts to talk....cause teh funny think is Odesnik was never known for his amazing fitness.....it says so much about those who are known for their fitness.

I can't believe Murray's tweet...
Doubt Odesnik will talk beating in mind Fuentes received death threats...

what is it?
..

Just read it! yes.....I think that's quite funny. I think what Murray is saying is that if you are not professional enough to dope without being caught..just don;t dope cause it affects the sport.

It's not the doping that annoys the top players of course...it's the damage such story does to the sport. .

"Bye bye Wayne...Good riddance!"

"The ban was cut to 12 months after he gave "substantial assistance" to the International Tennis Federation."
Substantial assistance was actually I won't talk about the others.

he obviously can't give names as he won't have substantial proof himself but hopefully he will give "substantial" clues this time around.

I wonder whether this tweet from Murray will fire back on him. If I were Odesnik, I might take that badly.

Good that Murray is standing up to doping in the sport

Tenez wrote:"The ban was cut to 12 months after he gave "substantial assistance" to the International Tennis Federation."
Substantial assistance was actually I won't talk about the others.

he obviously can't give names as he won't have substantial proof himself but hopefully he will give "substantial" clues this time around.

I wonder whether this tweet from Murray will fire back on him. If I were Odesnik, I might take that badly.

I would, too, with interest...but Odesnik does come across as a slime-ball, so don't think he's got the spine.

Murray is so thick it's painful.

luvsports! wrote:Roddick tweeted: "I hate that he has a US flag next to his name when he's cheating. Good riddance."


MAKES MY BLOOD BOIL WITH THIS HYPOCRISY!
SCREW THESE GUYS!

Especially after Rod admitting players are now 20lb heavier than 10 years ago.

This was my tweet to ROddick.

@andyroddick What were your thoughts when Agassi had his failed drug test for crystal meth usage and lied to the ATP?

youdaman

Haha cheers.
Ive emailed the ITF and hoping to get an interview.
Hopefully can get something out of those feckers. 
It's beyond a joke this. Investigative journalism ftw!

It shows that the ITF is also involved. If both can't say what Odesnik said to justify a ban reduction, it means they are hiding something worse.

I think the reaction from Murray (and other big names) probably shows that Odesnik was ready to give some names away. Now Murray feels he can tweet such things cause he is legally protected, so indeed "it's a good riddance" from Murray's view.

ITF is definitely involved.

If anyone lifts the lid on it, it will be Troicki and maybe even Nole.
Troicki in particular has lots of guts and Serbs have a defiant streak in them.
Serbian DC captain Obradovic, too.

The latest episode with Odwsnik actually could potentially lead somewhere.
The thing is, it's tough when you are in it by youself and ITF & WADA like true bullies bank on fear.

Murray has always been zealous to throw the first stone...

No chance they will.

Probably not, but no way they'd put up with being knocked about like Odesnik...
Somebody needs to tell him he'd probably make more money from selling his biography than tennis...

But..if he's been involved in match fixing which is rife, then we have mafia involved and they are worse than any lawyers, so he'll definitely say nothing.

He was a douche 2bh. Horrible tanking (like the badminton players at 2012 olympics) etc.
But the response of some tennis players is more telling. OMERTA!

As sad as it is, the omerta is best...if there is no proof out there. However I feel the prove are rampant and the effort is more on silencing it than uncovering it....no different than UCI/Armstrong.

If people had our mindsets to uncover the truth, the world would be a better place

How is omerta best?

If there is an institutionalised network of doping that is so sophisticated that stays within the teams and people are none the wiser, but it doesn't happen much. Few bad apples...

Cause speculating is worse.....without tangible proof. We can here speculate as we see fit cause we are a small forum but it would be bad to say the same things at large media scale without having any proof. It can affect the popularity of a sport affecting the revenue of many players (clean and not clean).

Omerta from the players is annoying....but normal....it;s the covering from the ITF which frustrates me (a la Agassi) cause they do have the smoking guns.

200 blood bags with positive tests were quite a tangible proof.

ITF and their smoking guns...with beaurocratic rubber bullets.

Doesn't matter...I know this is a small forum.

But at the same time I am glad I asked Nadal about Fuentes during the final last year.
It felt good.

He was "hushed up" by the ATP last time by giving him a reduced sentence, and it's just shows the stupidity of dopers that he thought he could continue to get away with it.  Question is now: do they pay him off with a settlement and buy his silence or does he start to speak what he knows now that he can't use it as a bargaining chip to get back into the game?

truffin1 wrote:....Question is now: do they pay him off with a settlement and buy his silence or does he start to speak what he knows now that he can't use it as a bargaining chip to get back into the game?

I think he knows or have some good inside knowledge about it all but to prove others are cheating would be extremely difficult to substantiate. Even when Landis threw everything at Lance, it led nowhere without possessing a contaminated sample. So Odesnik can risk being sued for $$millions for just opening his mouth....and this is why Murray is happy to mock him...
..Murray who of course can't walk normally such his thighs are huge.

Odesnik may well have been threatening to give names in his first attempt..and Murray and Roddick were likely on this list.

Tenez wrote:what is it?
..

Just read it! yes.....I think that's quite funny. I think what Murray is saying is that if you are not professional enough to dope without being caught..just don;t dope cause it affects the sport.

It's not the doping that annoys the top players of course...it's the damage such story does to the sport.

Another question that may seem stupid but anyway...how would such a story damage tennis?

I don't think Ben Johnson & LA scandal damaged athletics and cycling.

Agassi openly admited taking drugs and what happened...he is still as "popular" as ever.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:what is it?
..

Just read it! yes.....I think that's quite funny. I think what Murray is saying is that if you are not professional enough to dope without being caught..just don;t dope cause it affects the sport.

It's not the doping that annoys the top players of course...it's the damage such story does to the sport.

Another question that may seem stupid but anyway...how would such a story damage tennis?

I don't think Ben Johnson & LA scandal damaged athletics and cycling.

Agassi openly admited taking drugs and what happened...he is still as "popular" as ever.

I think the truth is the public actually rewards a sport when it comes clean.    The public is the one that must rebel, forcing the owners of the sport to clean it up, then the public will come back.

I keep coming back to the example of American baseball.

Most of the steroid era- baseball was booming.  Then it got so ridiculous and obscene with slightly above avg players like McGwire and Sosa destroying hallowed homerun records, Bonds steamrolling to pass Babe Ruth and Aarron in total home runs- that the public began shouting out about it.   Only once fans stayed away in droves at the ball parks, started calling their representatives to the point Congress wanted to make it a show, did the owners take notice and start to make real changes.

What happened once we saw baseball truly make an attempt to clean things up?   Fans came back and then some- higher levels than ever before, record tv deals,etc.   The Sport was rewarded for it's honesty.

Now- even when a great star like Rodriguez gets busted- the public just applauds. No one boycotts the league.... in the end- a sport will make more money when the public feels there is a fair chance for everyone to succeed and reach limits of human ability naturally.

I can see how it worked with baseball in the states.
From what I know, supporting a baseball team there is a family, life-long kind of local loyalty, people are really into it and it's a big cultural element, don't know how the league and competition works  in baseball, but I can imagine it being heavily TV-based, religious keeping of Saturday (or whichever day it is) night just for watching your team etc....

Tennis  on the ither hand is different as players come and go and their nationality rarely matters.
It's so diverse in every possible way and it keeps growing and evolving.
Look how much everything has changed since the open era: popularity was a big part of bringing in mega bucks etc...to the extent it's now almost become a one man Show.

How is tennis nation typing like me behind an ipad going to moan and get anywhere with it like general public in the US was able to?

Even if Nadal got exposed tomorrow, Wimbledon will certainly have no trouble selling their expensive tickets.

I feel there are powerful political lobbies in tennis, some nations are more protected than others and it's not always related to sponsors.

If Nadal got caught, tennis would keep going like it did while he was "injured" during his silent ban.

The game has always been bigger than players. It's just that a few beaurocratics cowards running it atm that are blocking any progress

Where there is a will there is a way.

The ones that disgust me most are former players like Mac selling the sport so cheaply now with lies.
Commentators are not far behind - instead of educating they are brainwashing. Forums are full of people parroting their stupid, meainingless phrases, it's painful...

Q. What are your thoughts on Wayne Odesnik's ban?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, I only heard it this morning, like all of you guys, I guess.
What do you want me to tell you? I think it's good you catch guys who don't do things they shouldn't be doing. Players and athletes should know if they cheat, they get caught, I guess. That's the moral of the story here.
I didn't know him at all, personally, to be quite honest. But I'm all for a clean sport, and that's why you've got to catch those guys who don't do the things they are supposed to be doing.
============================
Simply put ...but what else can he really say?

At least he is not as harsh as some obvious other dopers.

Q. You're well‑connected with all the American guys. What's kind of the reaction to the news about Wayne Odesnik and what's your personal reaction to it, as well?
JACK SOCK: Yeah, I saw it this morning. I mean, unfortunate for him, but, you know, second violation. I mean, we have rules in this sport, and if you're not going to obey them or abide by them, you've got to pay the consequence.
It's sad, of course. Yeah, he's an American. But, you know, it kind of is what it is. And if you're going to do it not only once but twice, then you have to pay the price.
=====================
Genuine response from a young, inexperience player, as it says that being caught was problem essentially.

Tenez wrote:Q.  What are your thoughts on Wayne Odesnik's ban?
ROGER FEDERER:  Well, I only heard it this morning, like all of you guys, I guess.
What do you want me to tell you?  I think it's good you catch guys who don't do things they shouldn't be doing.  Players and athletes should know if they cheat, they get caught, I guess.  That's the moral of the story here.
I didn't know him at all, personally, to be quite honest.  But I'm all for a clean sport, and that's why you've got to catch those guys who don't do the things they are supposed to be doing.
============================
Simply put ...but what else can he really say?

At least he is not as harsh as some obvious other dopers.

This is what he could've said:
"I am glad a player was caught and got a life long ban.
We also need  to demand the names of 200 athletes from Fuentes case who also tested positive and find out who and why is trying to cover up and protect them by ordering the evidence to be destroyed.
I have been on tour 15 years and witnessed drastic change in physical levels that cannot be achieved wihout illegal substances."

They are all cowards infatuated with their bank accounts and I don't feel sorry for any of them.
They can jolly well kill each other in 15 hour long matches, be happy for Nadal winning 9 RGs, ache and let the fat beurocrats who haven't played a day of sport in their lives make a living out of their blood sweat and tears.

I wish Federer was brave off court as he is on it.

noleisthebest wrote:This is what he could've said:
"I am glad a player was caught and got a life long ban.
We also need  to demand the names of 200 athletes from Fuentes case who also tested positive and find out who and why is trying to cover up and protect them by ordering the evidence to be destroyed.
I have been on tour 15 years and witnessed drastic change in physical levels that cannot be achieved wihout illegal substances."

they would tell him/you that it's not your business, It's WADA's business and that is already taking care by the institutions. It's gonna make you look weird by millions of fans, all his tennis peers will hate him for that like they hated Rochus when he said it all...but above all without having yourself a red sample, you will only look like a bad loser and put yourself into £millions of legal claims.

Frankly, without any tangible proof, it's better to believe the sport is clean and put all negative/suspecting thoughts aside.

At the show which make millions of people happy. And we are no different. If we want to hurt the sport and its system, let's simply not watch it. We can't do that ourself even though we don;t earn millions from it, so why ask to those who do?

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:This is what he could've said:
"I am glad a player was caught and got a life long ban.
We also need  to demand the names of 200 athletes from Fuentes case who also tested positive and find out who and why is trying to cover up and protect them by ordering the evidence to be destroyed.
I have been on tour 15 years and witnessed drastic change in physical levels that cannot be achieved wihout illegal substances."

they would tell him/you that it's not your business, It's WADA's business and that is already taking care by the institutions. It's gonna make you look weird by millions of fans, all his tennis peers will hate him for that like they hated Rochus when he said it all...but above all without having yourself a red sample, you will only look like a bad loser and put yourself into £millions of legal claims.

I couldn't care less if I looked like a bad loser in the eyes of millions of ignorant people, don't see why he should either.
Also, I don't think he could get sued on the sentence in my quoted post.
It's just gutless to think that way.

Tenez wrote:
Frankly, without any tangible proof, it's better to believe the sport is clean and put all negative/suspecting thoughts aside.

There is plenty of tangible proof, what are those 200 bags in Fuentes case if not tangible proof?

Tenez wrote:
At the show which make millions of people happy. And we are no different. If we want to hurt the sport and its system, let's simply not watch it. We can't do that ourself even though we don;t earn millions from it, so why ask to those who do?

Again you come with this cliche "hurt the sport".
How is sport going to get hurt?
As long as it bring money it never will like it never has in the past.

I am happy not to watch it if it can fix anything, but it won't. Yes, I can live without it.

The way to deal with the problem is to approach zero tolerance policy, to talk about it, to show no fear, not to cave to it like Federer does.
He of all players should say something, the world would listen.
What does he do instead?
Suck up to Nadal at every possible opportunity and give out wishy-washy safe hints which most people can't decipher.

I've had several cases in personal experience where standing up for truth cost me dearly.
But I wouldn't have it any other way.

You can live without it but you are still glued to it despite knowing the majority of them dope.

The zero tolerance policy should apply to us first: "I won;t care who wins or lose as I won't be watching until they tell me who those 200 blood bags belong to".

End of.

OK, I won't watch it then.

zero tolerance doesn't work. Sky are testament to that.
It's a very complex issue and one that will never go away.

Sucking up to Nadal, sticking head in the sand, pretending everything's great won't fix it either.

I know the problem is virtually unfixable but the way one deals with it with it makes the world of difference.

luvsports! wrote:zero tolerance doesn't work. Sky are testament to that.
It's a very complex issue and one that will never go away.

Yep we cannot ask for a man to fix the sport when we as a people cannot fix the level of corruption we have in our governments.

How do you end an omerta?
A few brave journo's and players who are willing to sacrifice all.
But what is the incentive? Nothing. You make lots of money if you keep schtum. 
Dollar values supersede moral values. SImple.

People have this naive view that sport is holier than any other walk of life. It isn't. Far from it. A radical change in terms of a cultural mindset needs to occur. So many fans are ignorant and they blissfully fawn over it.

And this is why those who know - a bit more - have got the duty to say Mannarino is much more talented than Murray. That is all that can be said. Mannarino could probably drug a bit but chose not to (certainly by the looks of it). We in the know appreciate that. The rest will be simply supportive of Marvelous Machiavellian Murray.

Another form of doping...

https://fr.sports.yahoo.com/news/schumacher-devrait-navoir-six-titres-142723548.html

Revealing a high level of doping at the top level going on, does hurt the sport. I still remember the 1998 Festina Affair at the TdF. That was a different time, more innocent maybe, people still believed more than today that sport maybe clean. So everybody was extremely shocked back then. Consequences included major TV stations stopping broadcast and sponsors withdrawing. Some teams had to dissolve because their main sponsor didn't want to be associated what had become to be seen as a "dirty sport". So the doping scandals of the time cost the sport and its stars real money.

Now maybe people have become more cynical about it and sponsors/ broadcasting stations wouldn't care about top stars caught for doping, but I doubt it. These sponsors don't mind their athletes showing superhuman feats in their name, but they gotta have a squeaky-clean image, else the dirt would wash on the sponsors. You might say that even the most obvious doper Nadal is still sought after by the sponsors despite the doubts surrounding him, but that would probably change should he actually get caught and exposed. The pretense could not be maintained in that case. Catching Nadal might of course not be the most horrific scenario for the sport (that would be catching Fed), because he is so obvious and already suspected by many. Still it would possibly lead to withdrawal of certain sponsors, and surely to disappointed fans (the Nadal fans in particular seem to be very naive wrt doping) who would turn their back to the sport and wouldn't spend their money on it any longer.

Truffin, interesting what you wrote about baseball and it might apply in the future to tennis, but not yet. Maybe when people get bored with the superhuman level of defending and the repeated, extended baseline rallies, high percentage game, they will no longer follow the sport. When players like Nadal start to threaten all-time records, the alarm clock should be ringing, tbh. He must be the most hated player of all time for sure. NITB called Nadal the death of tennis and he might be in a very real sense.

Should things remain the way they are now, i.e. nothing serious done to cleanse the sport and superhuman levels of fitness to sideline what is special about the sport, i.e. supreme shotmaking, the sport may indeed die a slow death. Should the big players be exposed otoh, it would be a huge shock with hopes of a new beginning.

I guess we just have to consider tennis as a form of wrestling show...just not as bad. I don't like wrestling as it is very fake, but we can still see amazing talents shine through in tennis.....they might not be the winners...that's all.

Autumnleaf wrote:He must be the most hated player of all time for sure. NITB called Nadal the death of tennis and he might be in a very real sense.

Hah! Only because of some upset Federer fans who cry over the Slam H2H between Federer and Nadal, and spend huge amounts of time making excuses for it to try and compensate for it.
Nadal is loved by many, his popularity is huge especially among the younger generations.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

Autumnleaf wrote:He must be the most hated player of all time for sure. NITB called Nadal the death of tennis and he might be in a very real sense.

Hah! Only because of some upset Federer fans who cry over the Slam H2H between Federer and Nadal, and spend huge amounts of time making excuses for it to try and compensate for it.
Nadal is loved by many, his popularity is huge especially among the younger generations.

From what I've seen, Nadal fans are either little blokes, or fat 50+ women...

lol. Kim fits the bill then.

I'm not fat