Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Murray and his future.....
Yesterday at 2:51 pm by Jahu

» Laver Cup - seriously?
Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:35 pm by DEC1M7

» Men's Final - USO 2018
Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:36 pm by legendkillar

» How good is Stefanos Tsitsipas?
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:15 pm by Jahu

» Ladies Final - USO 2018
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:48 am by bogbrush

» Why the big 3 Slam tally might never be matched
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:26 pm by Jahu

» Has there ever been a more eventful grand slam?
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:51 pm by Jahu

» Mens SF - USO2018
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:41 pm by Tenez

» Screech is back - and not a moment too soon
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:44 pm by Daniel

September 2018
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
     12
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930

Calendar Calendar

Affiliates
free forum


The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Page 22 of 22 Previous  1 ... 12 ... 20, 21, 22

Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:14 pm

Well in principle power and money corrupts. The Greeks knew that 1000s years ago.

I'll return the question, gives me the name of any entity (could be organisation, religion, association, etc...) which doesn't turn bad (not to say evil) while growing or getting wealthier?

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:21 pm

legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:I will still enjoy Froome being covered in spit and urine in that TDF. Those things will happen for a reason. Likewise those things won't happen to Federer for the same reasons.


It's a bit much.

There are ways in which affinity to a person can be conveyed without being so primitive.
It's just part of the deal. one yields what one sows.

In the same way smart people exploit credulous people, frustrated people with no power react the way they can.

If Froome were to be duly punished, he would not be facing those frustrated people. he won't win on every front.

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:29 pm

1) I know that's your point, I have acknowledged that and attempted to explain why it is an inevitable risk of a system that is workable, which doesn't require re-invention of the wheel every time.  I would agree that when setting the rules a Lab should be involved as to what is a necessary and achievable precaution - mis-communication of that sort would be truly incompetent.  You will, however, find that it is also human for employees of some Labs who cock up to want to create a smokescreen about 'pettifogging technicalities' rather than own up to having screwed up against pre-warned procedures and thus having handed a technical defence to a likely cheat.  I see it all the time when a case is won and the explanation given to the public is a 'technicality' designed to hide the incompetence and poor judgment of the losers and their lawyers.

2) Oddly enough, I think you are being more idealistic now.  I believe that the urge to win in some is so strong, and the feeling of indestructability in the young so powerful that relying on self-administration would be a non-starter.  Given a clear run at pharmaceuticals there is almost nothing some competitors wouldn't do, and we'd be cheering on mutants and reading about their exploits on the back pages whilst reading more Flo-jo life stories in the obituary pages; I think most people would recoil at that.

3) No I am not 'confident' in the current system and I hate cheats; I am merely accepting that it's not perfect, it never will be, and we have to live with it whilst putting pressure for improvements, including deciding to switch off or not buy endorsed products, and it's also as well to accept that the pace of change will be slow.  I therefore have to build in my own calibrations.  I don't believe that somebody who has never tested positive is a 100% clean athlete - I just won't call them out as a cheat unless there is strong evidence (like there was with Armstrong or Flo Jo).   Unfortunately, in that respect sport mirrors life.  I think that your short-cut will most likely produce a worse system with unintended consequence of injustice of a different sort.  Accepting that radical speedy changes for the better are unlikely does not mean I think the current system 'will do', some changes are obviously needed and vigilance is always needed too.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:41 pm

It is interesting Tenez, how you appear to be absolutely determined not to describe where your lines fall and why, and I surmise that the reason is apparent.  You know that your position falls down on the details and you are not therefore prepared to expose your views to the bacon slicer.

We can all agree that power and money tends to corrupt and that PED abuse is horrific, but having accepted that principle one needs to press on into the thicket and try to devise rules to deal with that, accepting that human ingenuity and fallibility will invariably make the rules look foolish in some way or shape, but that somebody has to bear the burden.  Of course there are cynics and hypocrites too; I have often accepted that PED control in sport is a lot to do with creating the impression of fair-play to keep sponsors happy.  But it remains the case that for a critic to be taken seriously he/she needs to suggest improvements and acknowledge that in matters of regulation there are lines, that difficult cases fall either side of those lines, and that their position has to be justified.  That is a tough business, not one for people who find it disagreeable to admit that they may be wrong.

In this respect, unfortunately, I think that your's is a coward's way out of castigating all and sundry as corrupt and disgraceful and painting yourself as having an Olympian ability to see what's wrong with them - this extends to being content to see people have piss thrown at them as part of mob justice without having any detailed suggestion as to how these real life problems can be dealt with practically and fairly to all.

So again - what are the limits on mob justice that your discernment process suggests to you?

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:44 pm

barrystar wrote:....   Unfortunately, in that respect sport mirrors life.  I think that your short-cut will most likely produce a worse system with unintended consequence of injustice of a different sort.  Accepting that radical speedy changes for the better are unlikely does not mean I think the current system 'will do', some changes are obviously needed and vigilance is always needed too.
Is there a worst system than we have today? I am not sure. Water always finds the lowest point. Likewise, the smarter people will always find a way to have it their way exploiting weaknesses wherever they see it.

Asking me how to discern is like asking me to give full colour vision to a colour blind person. One can either see all colours or they don't.

Those who see clear differences between red and green have a clear advantage over those who can;t....but unfortunately cannot help.

I am fully aware that my discernment is not perfect, in the same way as a normal human can see the difference between green and red, this person cannot see or discern colours other animals can. But a normal person can point when a coulour blind get it wrong.

Froome is a cheat and so is SKY team. You might not see or want to see it, I do. It's very clear to me.

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:46 pm

1) But it's not re-inventing the wheel. It's a shift in direction. Re-inventing the wheel is simply just copying and pasting. 2 different things.

2) Not at all. Let me ask you barry, would you accept each and every time a doctor prescribing you a drug for sport that you didn't need to ingest? I am not saying that every athlete would think like that and doctors are paid by athletes to provide that expertise and in some instances be more focused on edges than health, however putting the emphasis on the athlete for me has wider accountabilities as well as considerations. When the edge is out of the bag, why would competitors keep using? Not convinced you've considered that.

3) Wow that's half glass full and empty. Say no more I will.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:50 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:Quite - it is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't like what you see, or to dislike the whole concept of TUE - and then stop following the sport or campaign for a change, but it is not acceptable to say that XX is a cheat unless XX has had an opportunity to respond to a fair process.  A lot of the reaction is from people who feel deprived of a scalp.  I get why Sky is unpopular and I also understand why there is suspicion of TUE, but not at the cost of throwing fair procedure out of the window.
Nah....completely disagree with that. In an ideal world, yes it makes sense. But this is not an ideal world Barry, far from it. UCI is, historically, a corrupt organisation. They obey today to the same financial pressures of the past. They are just getting better (or worse imo actually) at protecting their sport.

You have got be so gullible to believe whatever comes out of it after their past.
That's what I find depressing with the human race, they never learn! Barry tomorrow Bush and Blair (or their successors) were to "legally" justify another invasion of a 3rd world country, you would bite again!
As smart and educated as one might be, if he/she has no discernement skills, he is pretty much a stuffed turkey!
But that road takes you to abolishing Juries, trials and law and just going with the discernment skills of whoever is in charge. It's been tried and doesn't produce the least-harm outcome.

I don't offer a solution. There is no solution to people's credulity. The world has always been corrupt and always will be because people are gullible and the smarter ones know to exploit that credulity.

However as a human I learn to discern. Some are really slow and poor at that.
Well offering no solution is pretty lame, to be honest.

The solution lies, as always, in the market. If a product is poor it does't sell. With a powerful brand like the Tour it might take a long time but in the end it will die if people don't want to buy it. Someone might set up an alternative event with their own meaningful controls and then some might buy it. If they want to buy it even if it's openly tainted then that's the product they want.

What I do think is terrible is advocating mob violence including spitting or throwing urine on people. That is an attack and I wonder why if you look forward to that you aren't keen to see tacks on the road, clubs taken to riders as they pass, ride-by knifings or just push them off something in the Alps. Or maybe you do. I mean, why not, or does your discernment extend to deciding the appropriate level of violence to be instigated as well as deciding guilt or innocence?

bogbrush

Posts : 2413
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:00 pm

legendkillar wrote:1) But it's not re-inventing the wheel. It's a shift in direction. Re-inventing the wheel is simply just copying and pasting. 2 different things.

2) Not at all. Let me ask you barry, would you accept each and every time a doctor prescribing you a drug for sport that you didn't need to ingest? I am not saying that every athlete would think like that and doctors are paid by athletes to provide that expertise and in some instances be more focused on edges than health, however putting the emphasis on the athlete for me has wider accountabilities as well as considerations. When the edge is out of the bag, why would competitors keep using? Not convinced you've considered that.

3) Wow that's half glass full and empty. Say no more I will.

1) Athlete A gets +ve test, he wants to challenge the handling of the specimen and suggest it might have been contaminated.  This leads to a detailed examination of what happened and whether the sample was contaminated as a result.  The rules body learn from this expense and difficulty and set procedures for specimen handling which, if followed, have the twin merits of reducing both the risk of contamination and the avenues of challenge open to Athlete B.  This, of course, creates traps for the unwary laboratory - if they don't follow procedures Athlete B may get an unmeritorious defence.  However, if you don't set procedures and require them to be followed then Athlete B goes through a similar set of wide-ranging arguments as Athlete A did, as so do Athletes C, D, &c &c - each time the wheel is re-invented, perhaps with the 'assistance' of an ever-increasing mountain of case-law from early cases - but you might have different experts who take a different view in later cases.  Procedures have to be realistic and kept under review, but without them for each subsequent case the whole shebang is at large again.

2) No, I would not, but I am not the problem - people like Lance Armstrong and Flo Jo are the problem, as are dishonest Doctors (and I am afraid they exist).  These people have a will to win and a preparedness to cut corners that we can't dream of.  When the edge you describe is out of the bag, they'll rummage around another bag for a new edge.  And if they stop using it those who retain the edge by using it will become the winners.

3) Well life is complicated - everybody has a choice as to how they deal with that.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:16 pm

1) Getting hung up here on the contamination element. I brought it into the argument by saying when at the outset we were discussing "fairness" and I did ask the question and you didn't answer as to whether a failed test which is then deemed "inconclusive" due to factors not related to the amount of a banned substance found and whether this abnormality was genuinely chemical or biological. Forget the process that's been done to death. It was just that question I really wanted your view on in terms of fairness. Promise I will say no more, but just wanted your view on fairness in that instance.

2) I know your not the problem, however I am going in a cultural direction in whereby more emphasis is on the athlete. You might feel there already is given they carry the can in the current system and I would agree, however I think transparency goes a long way. Yes it can lead to a race to the bottom, but no athlete would know by the register what substance has what effect on the competition and what carries the most potency. At this point I would be willing to give it a shot as I see this levels a playing field and would prevent some of the farces seen in sport. Not saying it's perfect, but just might iron some creases out. I totally respect the views opposing.

3) Life is complicated. What would it be if it wasn't eh? Yikes

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
Tenez wrote:I will still enjoy Froome being covered in spit and urine in that TDF. Those things will happen for a reason. Likewise those things won't happen to Federer for the same reasons.


It's a bit much.

There are ways in which affinity to a person can be conveyed without being so primitive.
It's just part of the deal. one yields what one sows.

In the same way smart people exploit credulous people, frustrated people with no power react the way they can.

If Froome were to be duly punished, he would not be facing those frustrated people. he won't win on every front.

I don't know about that.

I hate Love Island, but I wouldn't empty my bowels on them. Might leave them a bad review.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:02 pm

bogbrush wrote:Well offering no solution is pretty lame, to be honest.
Why? I don;t want to start our philosophical discussion again, but there are no solutions to lots of things. We just have to make do. A bit like the clip I posted earlier. It;s about accepting reality. The solution is what we have or will get. Like the solution to the October 1929 crisis was WW2.

The solution lies, as always, in the market. If a product is poor it does't sell. With a powerful brand like the Tour it might take a long time but in the end it will die if people don't want to buy it. Someone might set up an alternative event with their own meaningful controls and then some might buy it. If they want to buy it even if it's openly tainted then that's the product they want.
The market is actually the main problem. Too much money has killed sport if anything. If you are talking about in a 1000 years things will sort themselves out, then you agree with me that there is no solution now, and our only salvation is to learn to discern over the years, like life learnt to fly or to see. But then again, this is ignoring an important factor: the destructive forces of chaos which also learn to destroy better.
I must say, I find you a bit gullible as well to believe the market is the solution...though you are clearly expressing what I have always said about you and the golden calf. It is your religion! Nothing wrong with that btw.

What I do think is terrible is advocating mob violence including spitting or throwing urine on people. That is an attack and I wonder why if you look forward to that you aren't keen to see tacks on the road, clubs taken to riders as they pass, ride-by knifings or just push them off something in the Alps. Or maybe you do. I mean, why not, or does your discernment extend to deciding the appropriate level of violence to be instigated as well as deciding guilt or innocence?
It's just a reaction to an action. Like most, if not all, forms of violence.

I don;t like to cheat nor to spit but to be fair, I have more sympathy for the ones who spit (as it is a reaction) than those who cheat. It's just a point of view. I wish there woudl be no systematic cheating and covering up...so no-one would feel frustrated, in particular those who love the sport and the possible clean atheltes we will never know.


Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:04 pm

legendkillar wrote:1) Getting hung up here on the contamination element. I brought it into the argument by saying when at the outset we were discussing "fairness" and I did ask the question and you didn't answer as to whether a failed test which is then deemed "inconclusive" due to factors not related to the amount of a banned substance found and whether this abnormality was genuinely chemical or biological. Forget the process that's been done to death. It was just that question I really wanted your view on in terms of fairness. Promise I will say no more, but just wanted your view on fairness in that instance.

2) I know your not the problem, however I am going in a cultural direction in whereby more emphasis is on the athlete. You might feel there already is given they carry the can in the current system and I would agree, however I think transparency goes a long way. Yes it can lead to a race to the bottom, but no athlete would know by the register what substance has what effect on the competition and what carries the most potency. At this point I would be willing to give it a shot as I see this levels a playing field and would prevent some of the farces seen in sport. Not saying it's perfect, but just might iron some creases out. I totally respect the views opposing.

3) Life is complicated. What would it be if it wasn't eh? Yikes

Sorry about 1), my mistake.  I did not answer directly.  If someone gets off on a technicality not related to the substance of the matter it is often not fair and it makes me grit my teeth.  What I was trying to illustrate by reference to the contamination point is that you need to create rules and procedures to make these regimes workable, and these often involve possible pratfalls for the unwary prosecutor with the risk of non-compliance allowing the guilty to go free on a technicality.  My view is that in any system some level of 'wrong' results in individual cases has to be accepted as a very regrettable price we have to pay for overall clarity of rules and procedures, so long as they are seen to work in a sufficiently large majority of cases.  That does not mean that we should avoid from striving to avoid them happening, but the maxim 'hard cases make bad law' is true; efforts to bend rules to achieve justice in particular cases frequently open up a can of worms for the next case.  

Do we have a system that makes 'wrong' results acceptable, namely one that works in the majority of cases, and if we don't what could be better?  Those are far more difficult questions to answer - like many I strongly suspect that doping is more widespread than tests suggest, and far too many get away with it, so not a strongly confident answer to the first question, and as to the second I don't know - I have not heard of many suggestions that are realistic, including that could be afforded.

There are inherent problems including a massive mismatch of resources between the athletes and the dopers and disincentives to uncover doping if it's going cause havoc on a sport like Festina did to cycling.

You will often find that in these cases where an 'unfair' result is reached, there is an element of justice because the athlete's reputation is hit and does not recover (and sometime's the sport's too) so whilst they can compete, they don't get the full benefit of any success they enjoy such as sponsorship &c.  So, I agree with BB to an extent that the salutary effect of the market has its force.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:05 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Well offering no solution is pretty lame, to be honest.
Why? I don;t want to start our philosophical discussion again, but there are no solutions to lots of things. We just have to make do. A bit like the clip I posted earlier. It;s about accepting reality.  The solution is what we have or will get. Like the solution to the October 1929 crisis was WW2.  

The solution lies, as always, in the market. If a product is poor it does't sell. With a powerful brand like the Tour it might take a long time but in the end it will die if people don't want to buy it. Someone might set up an alternative event with their own meaningful controls and then some might buy it. If they want to buy it even if it's openly tainted then that's the product they want.
The market is actually the main problem. Too much money has killed sport if anything. If you are talking about in a 1000 years things will sort themselves out, then you agree with me that there is no solution now, and our only salvation is to learn to discern over the years, like life learnt to fly or to see. But then again, this is ignoring an important factor: the destructive forces of chaos which also learn to destroy better.
I must say, I find you a bit gullible as well to believe the market is the solution...though you are clearly expressing what I have always said about you and the golden calf. It is your religion! Nothing wrong with that btw.

What I do think is terrible is advocating mob violence including spitting or throwing urine on people. That is an attack and I wonder why if you look forward to that you aren't keen to see tacks on the road, clubs taken to riders as they pass, ride-by knifings or just push them off something in the Alps. Or maybe you do. I mean, why not, or does your discernment extend to deciding the appropriate level of violence to be instigated as well as deciding guilt or innocence?
It's just a reaction to an action. Like most, if not all, forms of violence.

I don;t like to cheat nor to spit but to be fair, I have more sympathy for the ones who spit (as it is a reaction) than those who cheat. It's just a point of view. I wish there woudl be no systematic cheating and covering up...so no-one would feel frustrated, in particular those who love the sport and the possible clean atheltes we will never know.


These are obfuscations and as long as you run away from trying to describe where the line falls you render your contributions on this subject suspect to say the least.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:18 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Well offering no solution is pretty lame, to be honest.
Why? I don;t want to start our philosophical discussion again, but there are no solutions to lots of things. We just have to make do. A bit like the clip I posted earlier. It;s about accepting reality.  The solution is what we have or will get. Like the solution to the October 1929 crisis was WW2.  

The solution lies, as always, in the market. If a product is poor it does't sell. With a powerful brand like the Tour it might take a long time but in the end it will die if people don't want to buy it. Someone might set up an alternative event with their own meaningful controls and then some might buy it. If they want to buy it even if it's openly tainted then that's the product they want.
The market is actually the main problem. Too much money has killed sport if anything. If you are talking about in a 1000 years things will sort themselves out, then you agree with me that there is no solution now, and our only salvation is to learn to discern over the years, like life learnt to fly or to see. But then again, this is ignoring an important factor: the destructive forces of chaos which also learn to destroy better.
I must say, I find you a bit gullible as well to believe the market is the solution...though you are clearly expressing what I have always said about you and the golden calf. It is your religion! Nothing wrong with that btw.

What I do think is terrible is advocating mob violence including spitting or throwing urine on people. That is an attack and I wonder why if you look forward to that you aren't keen to see tacks on the road, clubs taken to riders as they pass, ride-by knifings or just push them off something in the Alps. Or maybe you do. I mean, why not, or does your discernment extend to deciding the appropriate level of violence to be instigated as well as deciding guilt or innocence?
It's just a reaction to an action. Like most, if not all, forms of violence.

I don;t like to cheat nor to spit but to be fair, I have more sympathy for the ones who spit (as it is a reaction) than those who cheat. It's just a point of view. I wish there woudl be no systematic cheating and covering up...so no-one would feel frustrated, in particular those who love the sport and the possible clean atheltes we will never know.

You don't understand what the market is. It is people making choices, nothing else (it isn't fat bankers in stripey trousers). 

There is no excuse for violence. Knowing a bit about you from here I'm confident you'd not do it so don't lower yourself by condoning the w@nker$ who do.

bogbrush

Posts : 2413
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:59 pm

But those who have really lowered themselves here are not the mobs wtching the tour, it is the sport itself and their top athletes..and may I say those who support this circus.

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:11 pm

Come on Tenez - where do you draw the line for mob justice?

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:15 pm

Tenez wrote:But those who have really lowered themselves here are not the mobs wtching the tour, it is the sport itself and their top athletes..and may I say those who support this circus.
Oh come on, people spitting and throwing piss on people for no other reason than they have decided they are guilty are very, very low. I have to also wonder whether the French crowd at the Tour would be quite so emphatic if it was a French rider rather than a Rosbif. One Englishman winning the Tour might have been acceptable but a brace of them owning it, well.....

bogbrush

Posts : 2413
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:24 pm

barrystar wrote:Come on Tenez - where do you draw the line for mob justice?
a couple of centuries ago, French mobs chopped the heads of our royals and their justice system and set up their own system since. It is not perfect but it also works.

I don;t take side. I am a spectator trying to understand.

The smarter ones exploit the less clever ones who need to wake up and learn but who in turn revolt themselves when there feel cheated or exploited. You and I cannot do anything about it. It is the spectacle of life.

But again if people were less credulous, we would not have 70% of asthmatics amongst athletes. I don;t care whether it is legal or not. the legal is at the service of powerful people most of the time.

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:30 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:But those who have really lowered themselves here are not the mobs wtching the tour, it is the sport itself and their top athletes..and may I say those who support this circus.
Oh come on, people spitting and throwing piss on people for no other reason than they have decided they are guilty are very, very low. I have to also wonder whether the French crowd at the Tour would be quite so emphatic if it was a French rider rather than a Rosbif. One Englishman winning the Tour might have been acceptable but a brace of them owning it, well.....

Nah you don;t get it. Froome will be cycling the tour cause some have done everything possible in their power to clear his cheating. When you have 70% of athletes asthmatic, he doesn;t really matter what is legal and what is not. Law is man made. Reality is another thing and Law is doing its best to ignore that reality.

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:36 pm

Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:Come on Tenez - where do you draw the line for mob justice?
a couple of centuries ago, French mobs chopped the heads of our royals and their justice system and set up their own system since. It is not perfect but it also works.

I don;t take side. I am a spectator trying to understand.

The smarter ones exploit the less clever ones who need to wake up and learn but  who in turn revolt themselves when there feel cheated or exploited. You and I cannot do anything about it. It is the spectacle of life.

But again if people were less credulous, we would not have 70% of asthmatics amongst athletes. I don;t care whether it is legal or not. the legal is at the service of powerful people most of the time.
Don't take sides? Actually you wrote "I will still enjoy Froome being covered in spit and urine in that TDF. "

It's mob rule and it never, ever leads anywhere good and you can't be neutral. You are either up for that or you're not.

bogbrush

Posts : 2413
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:47 pm

bogbrush wrote:It's mob rule and it never, ever leads anywhere good and you can't be neutral. You are either up for that or you're not.
That;s your call. As mentioned France Republic is based on mobs ruling. And the way it's going we may have a second one.

This is what we call the eternal return of reality.

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:58 pm

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:It's mob rule and it never, ever leads anywhere good and you can't be neutral. You are either up for that or you're not.
That;s your call. As mentioned France Republic is based on mobs ruling. And the way it's going we may have a second one.

This is what we call the eternal return of reality.
Actually, it's not essential. Over here we developed a system of Common Law which resulted in us being able to establish constraints on our Kings even before 1000AD, and meant one guy having to sign a pledge to support many liberties in 1215 including the principle that everyone is subject to the law including the King. If you look at the places in the World that were in our Empire they have tended to have adopted our liberal democratic principles (Canada, Australia, NZ, USA, India, etc.) whereas those the Spanish / Portugese held are Hellholes (all of S America for example).

When we chopped the head off our King it was not because of his poor behaviour but because he acted traitorously in allying himself with the Pope against the people of England, and because he argued he had Divine right and stood over the Law. 

Happily we are getting out of the hideous Continental construction of the EU which is so modeled on the classic Continental system of rule of the people. Our culture is far more raucous in defense of these ancient rights.

bogbrush

Posts : 2413
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:29 pm

I know mobbing is not essential....but it is a reaction to an action in 99% of cases.


Yes you have a great system but as a country you (and France too of course) have been "mobsters" to rest of the world.

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:12 pm

We left everywhere better than we found it, and have remained friends with those we once ruled. Half of them even retain our Head of State as their own. Can’t say fairer than that! Not because we’re lovely people but because of the power of our principles of law.

Britain didn’t do it out of kindness but as empires go it was one of the better ones.


Edit: How the Hell did we get here?? Laugh

bogbrush

Posts : 2413
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:28 pm

barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:1) Getting hung up here on the contamination element. I brought it into the argument by saying when at the outset we were discussing "fairness" and I did ask the question and you didn't answer as to whether a failed test which is then deemed "inconclusive" due to factors not related to the amount of a banned substance found and whether this abnormality was genuinely chemical or biological. Forget the process that's been done to death. It was just that question I really wanted your view on in terms of fairness. Promise I will say no more, but just wanted your view on fairness in that instance.

2) I know your not the problem, however I am going in a cultural direction in whereby more emphasis is on the athlete. You might feel there already is given they carry the can in the current system and I would agree, however I think transparency goes a long way. Yes it can lead to a race to the bottom, but no athlete would know by the register what substance has what effect on the competition and what carries the most potency. At this point I would be willing to give it a shot as I see this levels a playing field and would prevent some of the farces seen in sport. Not saying it's perfect, but just might iron some creases out. I totally respect the views opposing.

3) Life is complicated. What would it be if it wasn't eh? Yikes

Sorry about 1), my mistake.  I did not answer directly.  If someone gets off on a technicality not related to the substance of the matter it is often not fair and it makes me grit my teeth.  What I was trying to illustrate by reference to the contamination point is that you need to create rules and procedures to make these regimes workable, and these often involve possible pratfalls for the unwary prosecutor with the risk of non-compliance allowing the guilty to go free on a technicality.  My view is that in any system some level of 'wrong' results in individual cases has to be accepted as a very regrettable price we have to pay for overall clarity of rules and procedures, so long as they are seen to work in a sufficiently large majority of cases.  That does not mean that we should avoid from striving to avoid them happening, but the maxim 'hard cases make bad law' is true; efforts to bend rules to achieve justice in particular cases frequently open up a can of worms for the next case.  

Do we have a system that makes 'wrong' results acceptable, namely one that works in the majority of cases, and if we don't what could be better?  Those are far more difficult questions to answer - like many I strongly suspect that doping is more widespread than tests suggest, and far too many get away with it, so not a strongly confident answer to the first question, and as to the second I don't know - I have not heard of many suggestions that are realistic, including that could be afforded.

There are inherent problems including a massive mismatch of resources between the athletes and the dopers and disincentives to uncover doping if it's going cause havoc on a sport like Festina did to cycling.

You will often find that in these cases where an 'unfair' result is reached, there is an element of justice because the athlete's reputation is hit and does not recover (and sometime's the sport's too) so whilst they can compete, they don't get the full benefit of any success they enjoy such as sponsorship &c.  So, I agree with BB to an extent that the salutary effect of the market has its force.

Fabulous smiley well I am glad we are somewhat in agreement about the fairness of such a scenario that could be plausible. 

I don't think the system makes wrong results acceptable. It's simply part and parcel of the system. It is subject to weaknesses that then get amplified. Issue with Froome was it was made public the findings and hence he is not alone by the trial by media brigade and to that extent I sympathise slightly when I know that Froome will carry that cloud of scrutiny and doubt like many before and after. Does it make it right? I am truly undecided because of the lack of confidence I have in the system and more so when you see Wiggins walk scot free given his circumstances were more suspicious than Froome's.

I know many of us debated TUE's and there's been talk of equality. Now with Froome he's asthmatic and requires Salbutamol. It would be argued that if he wasn't granted a TUE that he would be discriminated against, however allowing it then discriminates the other athletes who want a fair and equal playing field. Quite the dilemma. 

Relax the drug restrictions and many of that would dissipate.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:28 pm

bogbrush wrote:We left everywhere better than we found it, and have remained friends with those we once ruled. Half of them even retain our Head of State as their own. Can’t say fairer than that! Not because we’re lovely people but because of the power of our principles of law.

Britain didn’t do it out of kindness but as empires go it was one of the better ones.


Edit: How the Hell did we get here?? Laugh

eeerm...no.

You left Serbia with a 300% increase in cancer thanks to thousands of uranium depleted bombs you dropped in 1999.



noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:29 pm

bogbrush wrote:We left everywhere better than we found it, and have remained friends with those we once ruled. Half of them even retain our Head of State as their own. Can’t say fairer than that! Not because we’re lovely people but because of the power of our principles of law.

Britain didn’t do it out of kindness but as empires go it was one of the better ones.


Edit: How the Hell did we get here?? Laugh

Through piss and spit

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:10 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
bogbrush wrote:We left everywhere better than we found it, and have remained friends with those we once ruled. Half of them even retain our Head of State as their own. Can’t say fairer than that! Not because we’re lovely people but because of the power of our principles of law.

Britain didn’t do it out of kindness but as empires go it was one of the better ones.


Edit: How the Hell did we get here?? Laugh

eeerm...no.

You left Serbia with a 300% increase in cancer thanks to thousands of uranium depleted bombs you dropped in 1999.
I mean from our Empire. We wisely never resided in the Balkans, a very unsound part of the World to become too involved in wouldn’t you say?  Winking

bogbrush

Posts : 2413
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:14 am

Tenez wrote:
bogbrush wrote:It's mob rule and it never, ever leads anywhere good and you can't be neutral. You are either up for that or you're not.
That;s your call. As mentioned France Republic is based on mobs ruling. And the way it's going we may have a second one.

This is what we call the eternal return of reality.

As you probably know, you are currently on the Fifth Republic.

After the Revolution you have gone through the First Republic (National Convention, Directory, Consulate), First Empire, First Restoration of the Monarchy (Bourbon, King of France), 100 Days, Second Restoration (Bourbon King of France, overthrown and replaced by the Orleanist King of the French), Second Republic, Second Empire, Third Republic, Vichy - Occupation - Free French, Fourth Republic, Fifth Republic.

A pretty good indication that mob rule and top down authoritarianism doesn't last forever.  If things go tits up you will move onto your Sixth Republic - the second one ended with a coup in 1851.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:27 am

bogbrush wrote:

Actually, it's not essential. Over here we developed a system of Common Law which resulted in us being able to establish constraints on our Kings even before 1000AD, and meant one guy having to sign a pledge to support many liberties in 1215 including the principle that everyone is subject to the law including the King. If you look at the places in the World that were in our Empire they have tended to have adopted our liberal democratic principles (Canada, Australia, NZ, USA, India, etc.) whereas those the Spanish / Portugese held are Hellholes (all of S America for example).

When we chopped the head off our King it was not because of his poor behaviour but because he acted traitorously in allying himself with the Pope against the people of England, and because he argued he had Divine right and stood over the Law. 

Happily we are getting out of the hideous Continental construction of the EU which is so modeled on the classic Continental system of rule of the people. Our culture is far more raucous in defense of these ancient rights.

I'm a big fan of the Common Law too and agree that it is superior to the Napoleonic Code approach whose starting point is 'enlightened absolutism.  I think that there was a bit more to chopping of the King's head than that - but what stands out about it is that the proceedings of the Trial of King Charles I were written down and recorded for all to see, and for the most part it consisted of legal arguments as to how the King could be tried for treason when he was the fount of justice, and people could only be tired in the King's courts.  These arguments were taken seriously and recorded - to me that speaks volumes about what the Common Law gave to our political and administrative arrangements and, more importantly, habits as early as 1649, by comparison to what happened 140 years later in France.  That said, it must be admitted that the Napoleonic Code, and the idea of codifying laws, has survived robustly over the last 200 years.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Tenez on Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:24 am

barrystar wrote:As you probably know, you are currently on the Fifth Republic.

Yes "we" are flexible.

You guys are on your own planet. You have a great country, no doubt and I will always keep a foothold here in London but quality of life can be as good if not better elsewhere. There is no point discussing how good our countries are cause both are under the control of sly lobbies and this why we are going to wars neither you and I want.

So we will have this discussion again when we are really free.

Tenez

Posts : 19415
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:14 pm


legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by barrystar on Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:39 pm

legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44694122

Not sure the purpose of this.

Pretty obvious - to try and persuade people that they have nothing to hide.

barrystar

Posts : 561
Join date : 2017-11-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:47 pm

barrystar wrote:
legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44694122

Not sure the purpose of this.

Pretty obvious - to try and persuade people that they have nothing to hide.

Show the Salbutamol doses Winking might be more convinced.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:47 pm

legendkillar wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44694122

Not sure the purpose of this.

Sedative top-up for clean-sport believing masses.

noleisthebest

Posts : 27239
Join date : 2012-06-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by bogbrush on Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:18 am

I see the Tour de France has been won by a Britush guy riding for Team Sky who has never taken a TUE nor has asthma treatment.

I’m sure the French public are delighted at this news and can be counted on to cheer him to the rafters for reinforcing confidence in their race.

His insistence that, though not using either, TUEs and salbutamol use are entirely benign should also encourage fans to be reconciled to Froomes wins.

bogbrush

Posts : 2413
Join date : 2015-03-30
Location : England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:15 am

Don't think they will reconcile with Froomes wins. More so because of the lack of explanation as to why there were such high levels recorded. Generic statements, not just by Froome or Team Sky but as WADA and the UCI do nothing to enhance confidence. That may well change and Froome at some stage will probably explain more in simplistic terms the abnormal findings and how that situation occurred. 

Great win for Thomas, but sadly overshadowed by the Froome case. Controversy seems to sell more. 

The shame is right now we know that the Tdf will be tarnished by another scandal in a couple of years. It's sad.

legendkillar

Posts : 2503
Join date : 2012-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:29 am

bogbrush wrote:I see the Tour de France has been won by a Britush guy riding for Team Sky who has never taken a TUE nor has asthma treatment.

I’m sure the French public are delighted at this news and can be counted on to cheer him to the rafters for reinforcing confidence in their race.

His insistence that, though not using either, TUEs and salbutamol use are entirely benign should also encourage fans to be reconciled to Froomes wins.

Slippy

Posts : 411
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Slippy on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:32 am

Must remember that starting a post with a smiley blanks the entire post! I’ll try again without it:

6 wins in 7 years for Sky, with three different British winners. Whatever they are doing by way of marginal gains is clearly keeping them ahead of the pack.

I thought it was a fairly boring tdf. Seemed to only have two decent mountain stages with the one TT. Very little attempt to attack Thomas, although he did look immensely strong throughout.

Slippy

Posts : 411
Join date : 2016-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 22 of 22 Previous  1 ... 12 ... 20, 21, 22

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum