ATP Masters 1000: Madrid

Jahu wrote:

summerblues wrote:Nike would not be happy if these two came to be #1/#2 in the world.

Yeah, last time 2 Adidas people met in Final of Masters must of been 10 years ago, Djoko/Andy.

Djoko and Andy used to be Adidas?  I don't remember any of it - that was ages ago.

Tenez wrote:I dislike Zverev to the point that if Nadal was chasing number 1 and nore trophies, I'd be supporting him over Zverev!

Blasphemy!

didnt expect this good level from zverev

Tenez wrote:I dislike Zverev to the point that if Nadal was chasing number 1 and nore trophies, I'd be supporting him over Zverev!

He’s got such a punchable face!

Zverev is bloody annoying suspecting all the close call to be badly called!

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I dislike Zverev to the point that if Nadal was chasing number 1 and nore trophies, I'd be supporting him over Zverev!

He’s got such a punchable face!

Agreed!

naxroy wrote:didnt expect this good level from zverev

He has been getting better and better.  In the US early this year he would not hit anything - even short balls he was just sending softly back.

So we agree he is playing well.  But where we differ is that I would love to see him beat Rafa at RG.  I know, not very likely

too much disliking in this forum

you should call it ourantinennisforum

naxroy wrote:too much disliking in this forum

you should call it ourantinennisforum

Nothing wrong with rooting against a player.

summerblues wrote:

naxroy wrote:didnt expect this good level from zverev

He has been getting better and better.  In the US early this year he would not hit anything - even short balls he was just sending softly back.

So we agree he is playing well.  But where we differ is that I would love to see him beat Rafa at RG.  I know, not very likely

I'd like to see what he does in Rome. To me he has the game to beat Nadal now like Djoko and Murray could, especially since he hits harder than them.

The only question is over B05...cause he has not been doing very well at slams.

Zverev wins

Oh well...

I don’t think Zverev would beat Nadal.

He made the most of SBH returning from Shapo and Thiem, and looked better than he actually is.

Tenez wrote:I'd like to see what he does in Rome. To me he has the game to beat Nadal now like Djoko and Murray could, especially since he hits harder than them.

The only question is over B05...cause he has not been doing very well at slams.

I agree, if he can play like this, he might have a chance.  He has been hitting harder, deeper and with fewer errors than just a couple of weeks ago.

But how likely will he be able to play like this?  As you say, he has never done anything in slams.

noleisthebest wrote:I don’t think Zverev would beat Nadal.

That would make Tenez happy.  He will be rooting for Rafa is they meet.

Tenez wrote:I dislike Zverev to the point that if Nadal was chasing number 1 and nore trophies, I'd be supporting him over Zverev!

OK, you need to lie down.

Any one wining this is better than Nadal or Djoko wining it, so at least some youngsters.

Ferrer would of beaten Zverev today 

bogbrush wrote:

Tenez wrote:I dislike Zverev to the point that if Nadal wasn't* chasing number 1 and nore trophies, I'd be supporting him over Zverev!

OK, you need to lie down.

Meant to say wasn't*

I simply don't like his game.

I agree, it’s horrible. Disappointed in today’s result.

Hopefully Thiem & Zverev get drawn to both give Nadal a match at RG. Maybe one after the other.

Pleased to see you hadn’t taken leave of your senses though!

Tenez wrote:Meant to say wasn't*

 That makes a bit of difference.  Still odd, but more acceptable like this.

This is the mental problem with Thiem. Not mentally strong to go out and do the same until the trophy is won. It shows in his next game or even the next tournament he plays. Mental fatigue. His interviews also reflect the same.

After a big win, he fails to gather himself and finish the job. He often suffers a low after a high. Last year Beat Nadal in Rome QF, but a very tame loss to Djok in SF. Beat Djoko in RG QF and suffer a meek loss in SF against Nadal.  

This year beat Nadal in Madrid QF, a tame loss in finals against an opponent he had +ve h2h. He just didn't make enough returns. Zverev was solid but nothing special. A decent Thiem that beat Nadal, should have easily beaten him.

Get a new coach. This Gunter is not going to take him any further.

Don't forget he made heavy weather of beating Anderson (though in todays weird tennis rankings he's now a solid top-tenner....)

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:This is the mental problem with Thiem. Not mentally strong to go out and do the same until the trophy is won. It shows in his next game or even the next tournament he plays. Mental fatigue. His interviews also reflect the same.

After a big win, he fails to gather himself and finish the job. He often suffers a low after a high. Last year Beat Nadal in Rome QF, but a very tame loss to Djok in SF. Beat Djoko in RG QF and suffer a meek loss in SF against Nadal.  

This year beat Nadal in Madrid QF, a tame loss in finals against an opponent he had +ve h2h. He just didn't make enough returns. Zverev was solid but nothing special. A decent Thiem that beat Nadal, should have easily beaten him.

Get a new coach. This Gunter is not going to take him any further.

I am not sure it was mental. Zverev played very solid as you say with a better serve than Thiem. Thiem had hardly any chance on the return which put a lot of pressure on his own serve. The BH to BH was also in Thiem's defavour. The DHBH v the SHBH again made the difference, especially since Zverev has one of the better ones.

Thiem was spraying returns out long or wide, Zverev wasn't serving something special.

I'm saying was mental and this assertion is not due to one incident. Its a history of performances throughout Thiem's career. If he gets a big win, he often plays poor the next match and lose to players he shouldn't. This is a pattern and he needs to work on it with his coach.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Thiem was spraying returns out long or wide, Zverev wasn't serving something special.

Maybe though it is difficult to say whether the serve is special or not on the screen. The fact is he has not lost a set this week and some HE backed up stats were showing that his serving is much more precise this year.

I'm saying was mental and this assertion is not due to one incident. Its a history of performances throughout Thiem's career. If he gets a big win, he often plays poor the next match and lose to players he shouldn't. This is a pattern and he needs to work on it with his coach.

Yes but I am always reluctant to use mental as the first reason. 99% of defeats will have an mental impacts even though 99% of the time the issue is technical.

The Federer Nadal is very much the case in point. I have had so many discussions where people were so convinced (and most still are)  that Federer was losing to Nadal because he did not believe or was not as strong mentally....now that he can handle that BH better thx to the new racquet, the mental side is in Fed's favour.

So technical is in 90% cases the real reason why mentally someone may look weaker, in particular if he has no tech solution to a game or shot. Thiem looked stronger than Nadal mentally cause he could smell blood in that 1/4F. he saw that his shots were hurting Nadal and took heart....whereas 2 weeks ago, Thiem collapsed cause clearly he realised he had not it in him.

Tenez wrote:

Yes but I am always reluctant to use mental as the first reason. 99% of defeats will have an mental impacts even though 99% of the time the issue is technical.

The Federer Nadal is very much the case in point. I have had so many discussions where people were so convinced (and most still are)  that Federer was losing to Nadal because he did not believe or was not as strong mentally....now that he can handle that BH better thx to the new racquet, the mental side is in Fed's favour.

So technical is in 90% cases the real reason why mentally someone may look weaker, in particular if he has no tech solution to a game or shot. Thiem looked stronger than Nadal mentally cause he could smell blood in that 1/4F. he saw that his shots were hurting Nadal and took heart....whereas 2 weeks ago, Thiem collapsed cause clearly he realised he had not it in him.

Yup - 100% this.  I'm sure that the 'mental battle' is not some metaphysical chimera, but that it mostly stems from a proper understanding of, and confidence in, one's fitness, preparation, and technical ability vs. the opponent - which can grow during a match as one sees how the effect of one of those factors is progressing.  Fedal is such a good example of how the change in mental edge in a rivalry can follow a technical change - one could almost see Fed dismantling Nadal's feeling of relative safety on the former's backhand side over the course of That AO final.  In relation to Thiem vs. Nadal, it's worth noting that the altitude of Madrid provides a small margin of advantage which could have contributed to the feeling of confidence, particularly if both men appreciated that was having an effect, however small, on the points.

barrystar wrote:...  In relation to Thiem vs. Nadal, it's worth noting that the altitude of Madrid provides a small margin of advantage which could have contributed to the feeling of confidence, particularly if both men appreciated that was having an effect, however small, on the points.

Yes. It helped but I also saw that Nadal looked tired (shorter shots, more sweat, and erratic (less precision in his shots)).

Tenez wrote:

barrystar wrote:...  In relation to Thiem vs. Nadal, it's worth noting that the altitude of Madrid provides a small margin of advantage which could have contributed to the feeling of confidence, particularly if both men appreciated that was having an effect, however small, on the points.

Yes. It helped but I also saw that Nadal looked tired (shorter shots, more sweat, and erratic (less precision in his shots)).

Makes sense - as I said on BB's thread, Nadal has never managed to win all three clay MS along with Barcelona and RG in one year before and there was no reason to believe that at the age of 31 pushing 32 he would achieve that for the first time.  He's still hot favourite for RG, and probably Rome too.

I think the main reason why Nadal lost in Madrid was the faster conditions, not that he was tired.

It will be interesting to see a Thiem-Nadal match in Rome. I bet it is going to be a different story.

noleisthebest wrote:I think the main reason why Nadal lost in Madrid was the faster conditions, not that he was tired.

Agree.  He was not playing that different from MC and Barcelona, but conditions and Thiem's good play combined to a loss.  Thiem played aggressive but not blindly so.  Still, faster conditions made it easier to get balls past Rafa - Rafa would likely have won if they had played in RG.

totally agree, faster conditions and a bad day mixed with a great day for thiem