Re: Decoding Amri's Jinxes: Nobody saw it coming but Nadal did, that's why he lost.

by noleisthebest Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:43 pm

Nadal does not smash racquets, and verbally abuse his opponents or umpires, but he bullies them with his arrogant rule bending.
Even if the only thing he ever did was abuse time between the points, that is worse than all vulgar language players volley out to relieve tension and all the smashed racquets put together.

by N2D2L Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:50 pm

Is it really?

by Tenez Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:53 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Tenez wrote:but he is booed cause it a hot day and people were having fun.
'Federer fan blames hot weather for Roger getting booed'

Again, a spontaneous reaction here. Nothing calculated, strategically done to upset the opponent like a 50s abused time between points. Or a strategic back problem, bandage badly done. How often does Nadal asks for a time out for redoing his foot bandage? twice in his career, 3 times maybe out of the 600 matches he has played? how strange it had to happen in a slam final,, you know slams finals are quite important so I thnk his foot bandage must have been done with more care even than at any other time.

Besides you need to dig an old clip in a 10 year career to see Fed being booed....I can find 100 of those for Nadal despite his popularity.

by N2D2L Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:58 pm

Nothing calculated, strategically done to upset the opponent

How do you know this?
The Murray incident could be him trying to intimidate Murray, in USO he could have been trying to intimidate Del Potro and umpire; the Madrid incident was simply pointing to the wrong mark and cheating.
And what about Federer needing to coincidentally take a MTO when losing against Canas in 2007... to retape foot blisters (which you just ridiculed).

by Daniel Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:44 pm

There's a big difference between smashing racquets and being a fat cheat, like Nadal. I am the fairest person on the planet, but I smash racquets. Holy cow, does that really need to be explained?

by N2D2L Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:59 pm

Federer smashing rackets was not in the 'Federer-criticism' post I wrote and we were discussing.
It was just brought up as he was booed at the time.

by SayonaRa Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:35 pm

FedererKing wrote:There's a big difference between smashing racquets and being a fat cheat, like Nadal. I am the fairest person on the planet, but I smash racquets. Holy cow, does that really need to be explained?

Of course. A player cursing, smashing racquets, shouting etc is just a human being losing temper. But that can only hurt his/her own focus during play. Even good-boy Ferrer made a mini commotion yelling at the umpire the other day in AO. These random personal outbursts and frustrations are NOT aimed to distract the opponent on the other side of the net.

Yes, while Amris is in her selective “learning disability” mode, we need to explain to her the self-evident: that Federer/Djoko/Murray et al losing their temper is not an artificial act utilized as something to rob the opponent of winning momentum. That’s day-and-night different from Nadal’s assorted foul play PURPOSEFULLY DESIGNED and utilized as a tool to force his opponent to lose concentration and thereby giving himself an advantage.

Now Amri, if you tells us you understand and ACKNOWLEDGE the fundamental difference between Fed’s losing composure and Nadal’s gamesmanship, I’ll retract my statement/teasing about your “learning disability.”

by truffin1 Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:10 pm

Nadal dopes. He enters every single match cheating with the worst infraction there is (maybe match fixing would be comparable). Bad words, mto's- that's all just stuff for fans to throw at each other. Even the coaching in every match is nothing compared to the doping. The bottom line is nadal and other who dope are the worst of the worst and trumps any human nature behavior we see from every player.

by Tenez Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:42 pm

truffin1 wrote:Nadal dopes. He enters every single match cheating with the worst infraction there is (maybe match fixing would be comparable). Bad words, mto's- that's all just stuff for fans to throw at each other. Even the coaching in every match is nothing compared to the doping. The bottom line is nadal and other who dope are the worst of the worst and trumps any human nature behavior we see from every player.

Most likely. But we know that many before him were also regular dopers....so what is it that with nadal we find it harder to deal with? Very much like LA, we knew he was and we knew the rest of the field was also doping, yet LA's success was much harder to accept.

I guess the reason is that they are very good at it. For me it is more the fact that his whole success is based on it. There is nothing left to talent and chance in his game. It's all about breaking the talent factor of his opponent and bring it down to a physical fight where he knows he is better equipped to win. This is how smart Toni has been in that respect...and how lucky he was too as without the new technology Nadal would have hardly broken into the top 50 and without the slow courts he would have only shone on clay, like Bruguera. Even Bruguera game was obsolete on clay from the mid 90s, so string technology was essential to Nadal's success.

However, despite all that, I don't mind him as much....I mind the system who did everything for him to succeed:

- Turning a blind eye to extra time between points,
- slowing all courts
- cutting doping tests all year long since Nadal arrived on top of the stage
- working on making draws easier, in particular making sure Djoko was on the other side...right from the time Nadal admits in an interview he fears Djoko most (spring 2008).

he is the proof we can manufacture a champion! ...no different than LA.

by truffin1 Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:54 pm

I think that's it. It's hypocritical, but we tend to disregard or not pay attention to lesser players who are doping. When it comes to the legends though, guys playing for history- you want them to be clean and the focus is greater because now we are comparing and putting them in the federer,laver mountaintop- guys who did it right and with talent.

There is no question in my mind that doping is a major factor in tennis, and nadal is the most extreme and perfect example of it. His game, physicality, style is more effective then the other dopers so it enhances him to greater heights. The coaching,mto, time wasting are all bad, but his entire success is first and formost built on true deception.

You are right if course, the system has allowed it which is shameful but certainly not unusual

by SayonaRa Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:01 pm

How true. And Amri attempts to compare the most fraudulent tennis practice, doping and all, with Fed merely losing his temper! SMH

by luvsports! Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:33 pm

Truffin just saying how do you know that Feds doesn't dope?
That would mean that he too is guilty of entering "every single match cheating with the worst infraction there is."

by truffin1 Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:37 pm

Luv- well, that's certainly valid point. Like anything in life, without an absolute definitive answer like a true comprehensive test on every player, we have to go with our best judgement- hopefully based on experience and knowledge.

I've seen and been around doped athletes before as have various friends/collegues. I've yet to be surprised when someone I've thought was doping was caught, and so far no one has been caught that I couldn't tell was doping. In this case nadal exhibits all the classic attributes of a doper athlete, the cycling up and down, inconsistency in ability to maintain a level over a long period of time, physical look including going rapidly bald in mid 20's,etc. Federer exhibits none of this.

We next have to look at the culture around them and the system they were brought up under. It is no secret that the Spanish ruling class has had a cultural belief in "personal gain through deception is to be lauded and admired" Fir hundreds of years. It's just a cultural thing. We also know factually the the Spanish both personally and with government help have been one of the biggest proponents of athletes doping for years, and their doctors have been at the very cutting edge of doping technology. Nadal was brought up and trained under this system. The Swiss are very much the opposite culturally and haven't had a whiff of systematic doping program scandals like the Spanish. This is the system federer was raised and trained in.

We then look at the personal behavior of the player and team. We know factually that Toni and nadal are admitted, unapologetic breakers of the coaching rule. We know that at times nadal can lie with a straight face that he isn't being coached and didn't start to admit it until Toni started openly thumbing his nose at the rules and saying he did it. Simply put- if they are willing to systematically break a major rule like that- why would you think they wouldn't break the doping rule. In federer, we have never seen any systematic long term breaking of a major rule to try and gain an advantage.

We know that federe has worked openly as head of players council to push for more testing including asking for the ultimate deterrant- long term storage of samples for future possibly legacy destroying testing. We know that nadal publicly and his team behind the scenes has argued for no extra testing.

Finally - have you ever seen major long term rumors and accusations against athletes and public figure not turn out to be true? Think about it. In today's world, rumors don't make the public realm unless well sourced. How many athletes have been rumored to be dopers and it turn out NOT to be true? All the while swearing up and down they are innocent- even sworn under oath to congress as American baseball players did. How many rumors of impending diviorce, spouses cheating, sexuality, etc turned out not to be true once the media started reporting on it? Never- everytime it eventually turns out to be correct. Simply: where there is smoke there is fire- there is a reason for that saying- because it's true. In this case, the rumors have dogged nadal since the beginning including rumors of specific failed tests. Nothing like this attached to federer on the real media and tennis world.

Federer is too in love with the sport and history of it to perpetrate such a massive fraud. You can see it clearly in his soul. Nadal admittedly is more enthralled with the competitive side, the pushing the body to breaking point limits. Do some research and you will see this is a classic personality trait is someone willing to dope.

Everything I know, backed by the beliefs and info of people I know and respect, all the public info out there that any balanced observer could look at tells me that nadal dopes and federe does not.

by N2D2L Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:02 pm

SR wrote:How true. And Amri attempts to compare the most fraudulent tennis practice, doping and all, with Fed merely losing his temper! SMH

No, my post was more a criticism of the tenuous gaps in logic Nadal haters use, rather than anything at Roger. Did you read the posts above and below?

OK, if you want to continue.... I can

by N2D2L Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:05 pm

My next post will be a continuation of the one from Page 1.

by N2D2L Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:34 pm

luvsports! wrote:Truffin just saying how do you know that Feds doesn't dope?
That would mean that he too is guilty of entering "every single match cheating with the worst infraction there is."

Good question Luvsports, and there is one simple answer I'm afraid: Like Rafael Dopal, Roger Federer is a massive doper

The only people who can't accept it, are too clueless and naive, are the dumb Roger Federer worshippers themselves
THey conveniently fall for the NIKE image that is sent out by the PR HQ of Roger Federer, and all the other false nonsense that his fans subscribe to like sheep.

Firstly ITF admitted that they did blood tests for EPO only if initial drugs test indicated it was likely. THASP obtained the list of players who were tested in the secondary tests for EPO, after initially indications, from ITF doping statistics. And guess who was the player who was the most suspected? ROGER FEDERER.
Yes, that's right, Roger Federer had screened the most times for being likely to take EPO... but of course by the time the secondary tests came they EPO was long gone from his system...
Link: http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/epo-testing-revisited-wrap-up-part-four.html

But there's more, there's more
Did you know Luvsports what one of the side effects of EPO is? Mononucelosis. Mono. Remember which athlete had that
An article about the connection: http://ezinearticles.com/?Mononucleosis-and-EPO---Is-There-a-Connection?&id=1063041
Do Federer fans really things it's a coincidence that their hero got mono :laugh:I guess so, they are so blind they will follow anything the Federer PR camps tells them LMAO

Another article on the clear connection between mono and EPO usage: http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/on-mononucleosis.html
An extract from there:
THASP wrote:Here's what 20 minutes on Google can get you regarding cyclists and glandular fever:

1. David Millar: 2002 mononucleosis. Fyi: Busted in 2004 for doping, admits using EPO in 2001 and 2003.

2. Michael Rasmussen: 2010 "glandular fever". Fyi: Suspended for missing doping tests in 2007. Investigated by Italian authorities in 2011.

3. Damiano Cunego: 2005 "glandular fever". Fyi: Questioned in 2011 by Italian authorities as part of a doping investigation, including EPO.

4. Bart Wellens: 2009 "glandular fever". Fyi: Investigated for doping in 2006, cleared in 2009; investigated again in 2012; and apparently cleared again.

5. Michael Rogers: 2007 & 2011

6. Philip Deignan: 2006

7. Glenn O'Shea: 2010

8. Dani King: 2010

9. Thorwald Veneberg: 2006

10. Jonathan Tiernan-Locke: 2005

11. Allan Davis: 2011

12. Cameron Wurf: 2009

So what defence do the Federer worshippers use to defend the serial doper? You guessed it, the Lance Armstrong defence LMAO.
When Federer talks against blood doping and calls for more doping tests (like Lance Armstrong did), he knows his fans will for it like screaming Justin Bieber fans at a concert. :laugh:He said he wants doping samples do be kept and stored, but have we had any indication that Federer is trying to convince the ITF? More words from Federer, just like Lance Armstrong, he may as well go on Oprah now with a 'I want really strict blood testing regime, believe me promise' T-shirt LMAO

truffin1 wrote:Federer is too in love with the sport and history of it to perpetrate such a massive fraud. You can see it clearly in his soul.
:hug:You can see it in his soul LMAO. The defence of Federer fans is so weak they are rambling on about the fraud's 'love' and his 'soul' Awwww

Have you ever seen major long term rumors and accusations against athletes and public figure not turn out to be true? Think about it. In today's world, rumors don't make the public realm unless well sourced. How many athletes have been rumored to be dopers and it turn out NOT to be true? All the while swearing up and down they are innocent- even sworn under oath to congress as American baseball players did. How many rumors of impending diviorce, spouses cheating, sexuality, etc turned out not to be true once the media started reporting on it? Never- everytime it eventually turns out to be correct. Simply: where there is smoke there is fire- there is a reason for that saying- because it's true.
Roger Federer has shown himself already to be a massive cheat, did you see this video where he points to the wrong mark on purpose in an order to deceive and con the umpire into giving him the point rather than Nadal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPBwjZwpOKw
This cheat can blatantly lie and point to a wrong mark in front of the stadium with the whole crowd watching, imagine what he can do behind the scenes when he has the power of being the biggest name in the sport and the money of ATP and NIKE behind him. Just imagine.

So does this cheating fraud have any defenders left :laugh:Only his naive followers will still stick with this pathetic cheat, infact the only people who can really stand behind his disgraceful actions have... well how can I put it... a mental disability.

by N2D2L Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:38 pm

Just to clarify again, that above ^ is meant to be an imitation, not my analysis.

by noleisthebest Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:40 pm

Amri, can you edit that long post, please, it's difficult to see who is saying what as it's all in the highlighted "quoted" colour?

by N2D2L Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:44 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Amri, can you edit that long post, please, it's all difficult to see who said what as it's all in the highlighted "quoted" colour?

The whole quoted bit is me, apart from the list from THASP and Truffin's short bit.
I want to keep the whole response quoted, to make the distinction between my normal posting, and my imitations..

by noleisthebest Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:48 pm

Why the need to "imitate"?
Don't you have your own opinion, or are you ashamed to articulate them directly?

by N2D2L Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:50 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Why the need to "imitate"?
Don't you have your own opinion, or are you ashamed to articulate them directly?

I do, and I am always backing my opinion up.

In this instance, for this issue, the best way to get my opinion across is in this way, if you cannot understand what I'm trying to say... don't worry about it.

by noleisthebest Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:55 pm

Well, it's a very interesting topic, so I am interested.

by SayonaRa Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:02 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
SR wrote:How true. And Amri attempts to compare the most fraudulent tennis practice, doping and all, with Fed merely losing his temper! SMH
No, my post was more a criticism of the tenuous gaps in logic Nadal haters use, rather than anything at Roger. Did you read the posts above and below?

"criticism of the tenuous gaps in logic Nadal haters use" Laugh

No, I don't pay much attention to pointless rubbish from anonymous sources with zero credibility. I go with named journalists writing for respected newspapers such as this:

http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2011/06/rafael_nadal_and_the_dark_art.html

And no, I give up. Done talking to a brick wall actually. Run

by truffin1 Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:14 pm

Problem with your imitation is you take it to great extremes, far fetched examples and write on a vitriolic way. Yes, there are some nadal haters who do the same, but as a response to my post- you simply miss the mark. I don't use far fetched reasoning, I use logic an knowledge. Where I give an example of nadal cheating (coaching) that is something that even his fans admit he does, he and his coaches admit he does, he has been fined for and given umpire warnings multiple times. (Including last week), you use a one off example of federer pointing out a wrong mark which no one knows if was a simple mistake, no fines or umpire warnings were given, and federe has never admitted too. To try and show a May or May not have done it on purpose one time example and compare it to a career long admitted and proven rule breaking is comical... But of course that's what your good for in here- comedy.

A far reaching hysterical post like yours proves nothing in the face of an experienced knowlagable post like mine. Sadly instead of acknowledging the problem tennis faces and disicussing it in an adult manner, you continue the tradition of sticking your head in the sand .

What you can't understand which is clear from framing your "imitation" in a hateful way, is that people like me realize that there are multiple factors in an athlete deciding to dope. It doesn't mean they are bad people, doesn't mean they are uncaring and don't do good works, doesn't mean they aren't great athletes in their own right. Usually it's from what's acceptable in your culture, in the leaders of your system you are brought up under, pressures from outside forces, and a desire to wrong every bit of ability you can out of your body. In many ways, nadal is probably a victim in all this- pushed by a corrupt nationalistic program and his own handlers. He might be a great guy who dopes. I've seen many that are and have even known some.

by N2D2L Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:42 pm

Apart from the one paragraph I ironically took from your post, it not was meant to be a imitation of you... you're not the one who combines abbreviations, laugh faces, and lots of big grins.

And anyway, you did not even address the main points, it was the link from ITF which showed Fed has the most suspected with blood screening, and the connection of EPO and mononucelosis.

by truffin1 Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:29 am

The mono thing is stupid at best. The 1st article states that it would be a very rare complication for epo use to lead to mono with 3 million people using epo in a legit way. The author also makes sure to say that an athlete who gets mono is not evidence that they did dope epo.
The various respitory and viral illnesses that could be a rare side effect of epo or red blood cell doping are so common that nearly every human being in the world will be afflicted with one of these illnesses. I and many people close to me have had mono and none of us epo dope. To try and tie someone getting a common viral infection that is so easy to get you can catch it from taking a sip of someone's water bottle is grasping for major straws. It also ignores the counter and well known fact in the athletic world that world class athletes put such stress on their bodies that they actually have lower immune systems and catch higher rates of virus and colds. The mono thing means as much as waking up with swollen glands and googling it to then see you have the main symptom of a thousand different diseases.

Let's back up a second with epo- as I am sure you know from your studies epo is naturally occurring and everyone's levels are different. That was the beauty if it back in the day- it was a common doping regimen during my time in sports. Since everyone had different levels it was extremely hard to figure out what was your natural level or not. Also the tests were very poor in distinguishin between natural and made epo. So it was a common dope. However since the 90s the testing to distinguish man made epo is virtually foolproof and there is pretty compelling evidence that epo isn't even an effective performance enhancer. I would be shocked if anyone with the means of a nadal, feder, djokocic were doping with epo. Top class dopers have moved on far from that.

The other list if multiple test show me that federer, nadal, djokovic, Delpo all had multiple tests and the highly accurate test for synthetic epo came back negative on all of them. Doesn't surprise me in the least. Like I said, I would be shocked even if nadal epo doped at this point in doping technology. Why was fed given 1 more test than djoko and 2 more than nadal? Without knowing how many overall test they took that year it's statistically irrelevent. We know they random test players at different numbers and one year a player may be tested more than another and the next it flips. Fed even in a round about way defended nadal last year when nadal was complaining about being tested extra during his injury absence and fed said he thought it strange how random the times and number of tests that are given and he had gone a string of 5 tournies that he either won or beached the last stages and hadn't been tested even 1 time. He thought that unfair to others and strange since you would think his success would prompt a look. It could be as simple and common as Feds natural level of epo is closer to the level that sets off the second test than some other players. It could even be if we go back and put substance to the mono article that wada puts extra attention on an athlete coming off of mono and test them more. Since 2008 was when federer had mono- that makes sense if true that he then get some extra tests just as nadal claimed he was tested more than usual coming off of his injury break.

As I've said on here many times- I also beleive that every top athlete with the means is taking things to the very limit of acceptable levels. If the speed limit of a race is 100 and anything over that disqualifies you, and you have a car capable of reaching 100 with some help of a legal additive it would be stupid to just drive along at 80. Your competitors are going 100, so you gas the car so you can go 100 too-- it's those that then try to hide some more of the extra additive to get to 105 and trick the readings to show you only went 100 that are cheating, I bet federer, nadal, djoko are all adding into their bodies the very limits that are legal of all the different performance factors. It is my firm belief though that nadal and esp the Spanish but also other players are willing to break those limits.

Wrote this on my phone off the cuff and from memory so sorry for spelling/ grammar mistakes

by N2D2L Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:41 am

I agree with you, I do not think Roger is doping.

For the mono thing, I think you're right in making the important distinction; mono may be a side effect of EPO, but that doesn't mean that people with mono can be presumed guilty for EPO use.

truffin1 wrote:It could even be if we go back and put substance to the mono article that wada puts extra attention on an athlete coming off of mono and test them more.

Yes, this could make sense actually.
But what do you make of the ITF saying that they only tested for EPO after an initial screening which indicates it? This means they found this for Federer, Nadal, Djokovic etc.

by truffin1 Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:00 am

My reading of it the articles and from what I know is generally done in most doping tests is the 1st testing is just to get a reading of the level. If you are above the natural level in certain hormones where a known level exists, then you have failed and then they'll check your b sample for confirmation. Then the athlete is busted and has to fight to prove innocence. With certain things like epo- there is no set level- certainly there is a level that just can't be natural, but for the most part- everyone has a different level and wada sets the testing level to what they feel in the normal range for most. My reading of the article which really was specultive at best and the email was a very generic answer and certainly leads to interpretation is that if the 1st test shows a higher level than wada average (which could mean the person just has a naturally higher level) or even just close to then level that they want a more detailed look-then then 2nd more comprehensive test is given to see if the epo level is natural or enhanced. Seems like all those guys came back as natural or what they did enhance synthetically was just at and not past legal limits. I can't tell from that sparcely detailed article if they were the only ones who were retested for the year or even if that was the only reason to be retested. It seems the the author kind of infers that the 2nd test is ONLY after a high 1st test. Could be those 4 guys had the most success and were looked at more closely. If they truly are the only ones than my guess is they being the most successful and having the means we're taking their levels to right at the legal limits. Nothing wrong with that as I said and in all the top athletes. At that time period though they knew epo doesn't do enough for you to risk doping illegally. They may enhance it to the very limit as I would expect they do with every hormone, but no way IMO they are trying to sneak an illegal dope with epo with what was known then. There are far more effective hormones and methods. I include nadal when I say I highly doubt the top guys are trying to beat epo tests. If you dope, your on to much more high tech stuff.

by noleisthebest Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:50 am

Thanks Truffin.
I know very litle about technical ins and outs of doping, so it was very informative for me to see that you claim EPO is now obsolete.

A few months ago I spoke to a young woman who was trying to break into professional waters of women's football.

We were both trying to crack the airport's free WIFI code and got talking, I asked her on her opinion of doping and she said it in a very matter-of-fact tone that everybody in professional sport now dopes, the higher the level they compete is - the better they get at it.

Stoll being a bit naive in that area, I asked how did she know for sure, and she just smiled saying - you can see just hoe long they can run and how strong they are.

Every sport requires different skills, and I guess diferent doping method.

To me, even when I knew virtually nothing about it, Nadal was so obvious with his style of play, endless source of energy, enormous sweating, fake muscles...

Then, little by little I learnt that you don't need to "look" like him to be doped, so that was an eyeopener for me. Although I play tennis only for fun, I have realised that however fit you are, it's impossible to physically execute long rallies for very long time in an energy inefficient way, as so many players seem to be doing today with relative ease.

So, my question is now, if EPO is a thing of the past, what are the most common, advanced and effect methods in tennis?

by luvsports! Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:51 am

Ever think of taking up lecturing truffin?
I'd be the first to sign up Big Grin

by SayonaRa Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:57 pm

LS, I understand you were non-committal before. Do you agree with truffin now nadal dopes? What's your take on the matter?

by luvsports! Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:13 pm

Sr - I did my dissertation on drugs in sport & i think all sports are rife with drugs.
I'm gonna do a blog on it, so stay tuned smiley

.

In regards to tennis (im a big cycling fan as well among other sports), I suspect a lot are on drugs but I won't go as far as categorically saying they are as I simply don't know, despite strong suspicions. I have been suspicious of nadal for years, djoko ever since turn of '11 and Murray in the last couple of years, same for ferrer.

For me i think nadal, djoko, murray & ferrer are on drugs and many others as well but I just don't know about feds and that is what pains me.

by noleisthebest Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:17 pm

I reckon they all are.
Nobody can play 5 sets of gruelling tennis on orange juice and a bowl of pasta week in week out.

by Tenez Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:25 pm

I still think EPO was and still is a strong doping substance. To increase the amount of red cells in blood is actually key for stamina. There might be other ways to increase red cells such training on altitude or Djoko's egg for instance.

I'd certainly be interested in hearing from bluenose on this as well.

Also, you know I have been very open about who might or might not be doping and I think it is important to be able to discuss freely about doping as it is simply an essential ingredient of success in sport, well in our sport for sure. However, I would not like to have it focused too much on Nadal, even if I made the point above, he more than anyone else based his success essentially on his physique.

Points well made Truffin, you seem to have even convinced JS! Winking

by Tenez Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:48 pm

luvsports! wrote:Sr - I did my dissertation on drugs in sport & i think all sports are rife with drugs.
I'm gonna do a blog on it, so stay tuned .

In regards to tennis (im a big cycling fan as well among other sports), I suspect a lot are on drugs but I won't go as far as categorically saying they are as I simply don't know, despite strong suspicions. I have been suspicious of nadal for years, djoko ever since turn of '11 and Murray in the last couple of years, same for ferrer.

For me i think nadal, djoko, murray & ferrer are on drugs and many others as well but I just don't know about feds and that is what pains me.

Murray's doping was as obvious as 2006 or 7!...even before as he went to "train" in spain in his youth for a very good reason, imo. His training with Michael Johnson and coming back with added kilos of muscles over xmas spent in "Miami vice" is simply an open admission....nothing else!

Regarding Federer, I think he is a great athlete, doping or not. Take away the stamina, the strength (and timing) he has in his arms to flick those BHs passes with his wrist. I guess being a Swiss he is built like a climber, long thin muscles so requiring les oxygene than volume ones. It also explains his great footwork, strong but thin and light muscles. And despite all that he has a pretty bad 5 setter record for someone who essentially impose to others the running while doing less of it himself.

As we saw a few times, when on form he can win sets easily, effortlessly, requiring little sweating (WTF v Nadal 63 60 for instance).....so I am not sure the risk of doping is really worth it as he doesn't wish to use that stamina. At 32 he beat Murray going to the net and shortening rallies again. So personally I have yet to see clear signs.

by SayonaRa Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:51 pm

You said there're 9 or 10 in your most-suspected list.

On the Spanish side: nadal, ferrer, vedasco, robredo

Elsewhere, djokovich, Murray, monfils, troicki, cilic,

Is that close? Who else, please elaborate.

by Tenez Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:00 pm

Well I think Stan, Tsonga, Berdych (for sure),and maybe Federer as though I think he doesn't I am not too sure. But otherwise I think nowadays it's impossible to reach the top without help. Though again players who can make a quick point easy are the less suspect.

This is how I approach it btw, Style tells you who would win if doping was not around. Simply because nowadays, unlike Borg's time, it's kind of easy to with technology to pull winners...probem is that with amazing fitness (doping technology) it's also easier to retrieve those points.

Remember when Federer reached his success peak in 2006/7, despite guys being super fit like Hewitt and so on, Not many could retrieve his winners, he was gunning them all down. Then Nadal, Djoko and Murray (also doped Canas), started to retrieve those unretrievable shots....that was the end of his amazing reign.

by luvsports! Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:10 pm

Me?
Tipsarevic probs, you seen his thighs? Same with Berdych imo.
Monaco, Haas possibly, Seppi. So many probs.

by SayonaRa Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:35 pm

Tenez, Funny you mention Stan. I would like to think he's clean. But his style of play puts him with the current School of Tennis Gladiators. No matter how good his backhand, he won't stand a chance without enhanced fitness.

By contrast, it seems to me that Fed likes to win using his own tennis brain. When he's in form, you can see him calculating the court logistics and constructing points spreading himself all over the place. Wasn't 'that the point when tennis was originally invented and played by monks in their monastery in between monastic duties? The aim was to outsmart your opponent and hit winners as soon as you can. Who had time to rally all day at the base-line?

I think Roger learned to play tennis and the challenge of the sport the way it was meant to be based on from the skill, speed and natural abilities. I believe he won all his slams that way. That was still the primary methodology he used to beat Murray so late in his career in 2013. I don't think he needed anything more than his full court coverage and a very well planned and well executed strategy.

I also venture to think that even if he has easy access to PEDs today, he'd decline, simply because he wants to win on his own terms or not at all, not on the terms of a PED schedule owed to a doctor.

by SayonaRa Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:41 pm

Why Berdych "for sure"?

by noleisthebest Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:07 pm

He, he SR, I would like to think they were ALL clean, but they are not...it's just the norm now.

But as Tenez says, Nadal benefited most from it as he, being a very poor ball-striker (read talentless Winking

) would have not won a single title without dope, whereas Fed, Nole and others would.
So they were all robbed because of ATP/ITF slowing down conditions in order to propel Nadal and the golden egg laying hen Fedal, ruiningtennis and an entire generation of players in the process.
Masses wanted The Show, and they got it!
Take away dope (zero chance) or speed up conditions (realistic), and we will see tennis talent shine again, not ridiculously fit athletes safely return the ball ad nauseum.

by truffin1 Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:08 am

I don't think all dope- especially in today's money can buy anything world- for the avg player- if you don't come from a country and program that promotes doping and helps facilitate it- the player is going to have a hard time keeping up with the technology the top guys can buy. The testing as deficient as it is will catch the common and poorly masked doping agents. Perhaps that's why we see so few breaking into the top? Why the top has been so stable? Countries like Spain whose government has a long history of providing doping doctors and whose culture does not view it poorly will help those who want to enhance their natural abilities. Some of the highly nationlistic countries like Serbia as well- The thing is though you need a great athlete to start with or someone who has the physical abilities and attributes. Peds enhance the athlete and push them to greater heights but it can't turn bread into wine.

It also simply comes down to the person. I have been around many athletes from several different sports and different skills. I knew many that doped, but also knew many that didn't. Those that didn't tended to be the ultra talents who simply were satisfied with what they could achieve naturally- who excelled to a degree that they didn't want the side effects, the potential of getting caught. Also some I knew came from families (cultures in a less specific way) that simply instilled in them a hate for cheating. One common attribute I saw in those I knew were clean and still holds true( even if amri belittles it) is some athletes have a true intense love for the history of their sports, a love of the game they have since children. I've met many an athlete where the love of the sport is just a part of them, the ones who can recite what the trailblazers of the sport did, that seek out and try to be close to the legends. These guys simply would not tarnish the thing they love most.

Where you see the dopers are the kids that were pushed into the sport after being targeted by a parent or national program as having potential even if the kid is ambivalent- the Agassi types. Then you have those who exhibit physical abilities and can be molded by coaches and the program into something very good- but need the push to be elite. Then there are simply the guys who have no morals and just do whatever it takes to be successful. Also, the guys who do get to an elite level, but want more- pressures from home, their nations, simple greed.

Let's be realisitc- djokovic is a fabulous player- but stuck at #3 behind a physical monster with patterns and style you hardly play against and who know is enhanced by Peds, and a once In a lifetime talent who is so used to winning and shows no sign of burnout or lack of motivation. Djoko has intense pressure from his nation, his mentors, and his ambition to pass these guys. What are his choices? Wait for federer to get old, hurt , or lose motivation, and hope nadal gets hurts or gets caught. Or capitalize on his wealth, his close and protective team and dope to take him to that next level. Many of us faced wrote the same choices would take the same road he did. Murray? Stuck behind 3 guys who year after year simply showed they had a little more than him- same choice for him. Nadal is like Drago from rocky 4- seen from an early age as having huge physical potential prob could have played multiple sports but his uncle- a ambitious and do anything for the glory of winning guy- molds him into the ultimate efficient tennis machine with one singular goal- figure out what it takes to beat who Toni obsessively calls the GOAT tennis player - federer- knowing if you can create a player that can beat federer the others will fall as well. Problem is- nadal is like the others- can get to a certain point but has limits that block him from the top of the mountain- what is the choice? Peds.

For people like LA, Barry Bonds, Nadal - they are so close to breaking through, but can't- they need the help, and they have support systems in place that will.

Ok- no more lectures - as forest gump says- "and that's all I have to say about that" :-)

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:37 am

luvsports! wrote:Ever think of taking up lecturing truffin?
I'd be the first to sign up

I'll join in too. Great to have a poster like Truffin on OTF. artist

by Tenez Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:32 am

Truffin wrote:Problem is- nadal is like the others- can get to a certain point but has limits that block him from the top of the mountain- what is the choice? Peds

I see it differently. I don't think PED gives just the extra bit that takes close-to-be-champion to champion. PED in sport if really well done, can make an average racer to a super athlete/champion.

Ben Johnson, LA and Nadal would have been pretty average (and for 2 of them were) before taking drugs. Nadal would have been even worse off as without that extra power, we see most players able to beat him. Having that extra bite on the ball makes so much difference. It turns a ball any top 100 player could whack past him into a ball that is so difficult to handle that Nadal gets tons of UEs from.

by noleisthebest Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:36 am

I think that people underestimate how average Nadal's ball-striking is as well as what enables the power/energy his shots produce.
Once they understand that, everything else falls into place.

by noleisthebest Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:55 am

truffin1 wrote:I don't think all dope- especially in today's money can buy anything world- for the avg player- if you don't come from a country and program that promotes doping and helps facilitate it- the player is going to have a hard time keeping up with the technology the top guys can buy. The testing as deficient as it is will catch the common and poorly masked doping agents. Perhaps that's why we see so few breaking into the top? Why the top has been so stable? Countries like Spain whose government has a long history of providing doping doctors and whose culture does not view it poorly will help those who want to enhance their natural abilities. Some of the highly nationlistic countries like Serbia as well- The thing is though you need a great athlete to start with or someone who has the physical abilities and attributes. Peds enhance the athlete and push them to greater heights but it can't turn bread into wine.

It also simply comes down to the person. I have been around many athletes from several different sports and different skills. I knew many that doped, but also knew many that didn't. Those that didn't tended to be the ultra talents who simply were satisfied with what they could achieve naturally- who excelled to a degree that they didn't want the side effects, the potential of getting caught.
Let's be realisitc- djokovic is a fabulous player- but stuck at #3 behind a physical monster with patterns and style you hardly play against and who know is enhanced by Peds, and a once In a lifetime talent who is so used to winning and shows no sign of burnout or lack of motivation. Djoko has intense pressure from his nation, his mentors, and his ambition to pass these guys. What are his choices? Wait for federer to get old, hurt , or lose motivation, and hope nadal gets hurts or gets caught. Or capitalize on his wealth, his close and protective team and dope to take him to that next level. Many of us faced wrote the same choices would take the same road he did. Murray? choice? Peds.

For people like LA, Barry Bonds, Nadal - they are so close to breaking through, but can't- they need the help, and they have support systems in place that will.

I wish I was as optimistic as you, Truffin, and believe that there are players out there who for the love of sport don't dope.
I am sure talented players love sport more than those without it, but the problem I have there is the silence.
It is the silence that gives them all away.

They may love the sport, but they obviously love money a lot more, otherwise, they'd speak out.

Of all the players, it was actually Novak who showed most teeth recently when he challenged WADA's boss and refused to be talked down by him.

John Fahey, WADA's president then came out with this condesending statement:

"I don’t think Novak Djokovic has the faintest idea what we do and if he wants to understand what we do I’m more than happy to pick up the phone and talk to him, if he wants to talk to me. If he wishes to then make a comment I might listen to him but for the moment I don’t think that was an informed statement."

Seeing that he obviously had nothing to lose, especially the way Troicki's appeal case panned out, Novak fired back a sharp, and very telling response:

"I am not going to call WADA president John Fahey because I know more than he thinks I know
So for me this is a total injustice. It shows again the system does not work and there is nothing that they can say to convince me that it does."

I want to see more of that from other players.

The only reason they don't for me is they are all in it together. That's why they all praise "Rafa" and his team.
Even Norman Magnus the other day "had to" say:

"proud of this team. Also great sportmanship from the Nadal camp. All good lads!"

What's all that about?

As for Switzerland, I lived there for a while and I can reassure you it is one of the more crooked places. You just need to know a bit about some of their banks' wealth management practices to quickly realise it is not the postcard idyll from Haidi's novel.
Think of Martina Higgins.

by N2D2L Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:59 am

You do realise Djokovic was claiming the punishments were too harsh, rather than too lenient?

He was angry Troicki were punished so severely.

by noleisthebest Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:15 pm

I'm glad you noticed that.
If you continue to read you'll notice the word "injustice".
What do you think Novak was referring to there?

by N2D2L Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:22 pm

Troicki's punishment?

by N2D2L Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:23 pm

I mean according to you, Djokovic himself dopes, so what exactly do you think he's saying?
He was clearly talking about Troicki.

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