The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

I think this is what makes the Fuentes case so paramount. It needs exposure. The list with the athletes on needs to be addressed and the athletes need to be held accountable. Also how credible will the list be? If we argue that top footballers and even tennis stars are not named, what is the likelihood that the list has been tampered by the authorities?

The sad thing is I can see the lesser known athletes will be made the scapegoats of the whole report. If there is so much at stake, like titles and succes, I can't see the authorities if it is carried out in Spain will hang out their top stars.

Anyway, lies, money and corruption are best friends.

The more there is at stake, the higher the price is paid.
Remember David Kelly and his "suicide"?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/09/david-kelly-new-inquest-ruled-out

We underestimate the power of fear.

I think this is what makes the Fuentes case so paramount. It needs exposure. The list with the athletes on needs to be addressed and the athletes need to be held accountable. Also how credible will the list be? If we argue that top footballers and even tennis stars are not named, what is the likelihood that the list has been tampered by the authorities?

The sad thing is I can see the lesser known athletes will be made the scapegoats of the whole report. If there is so much at stake, like titles and succes, I can't see the authorities if it is carried out in Spain will hang out their top stars.

noleisthebest wrote:For me, it was a telling comment when, a few years ago, Federer said he would not mind his samples being frozen until the testing technology picked up.
That happened at the time when Nadal and Murray were moaning about having to be woken up in the morning to give samples.

Remember very well. Fed said specifically asked for hsi samples to be frozen....and not "would not mind".

Well it's clear that doped or not Federer's game comes with outstanding talent and grace. I wish it was available in pills. I'd take some!

I would like to be proven wrong, but this Fuentes case is just going to be a lot of smoke and an occasional spark that would eventually spit out a Z-list name and keep protecting the big ones.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:For me, it was a telling comment when, a few years ago, Federer said he would not mind his samples being frozen until the testing technology picked up.
That happened at the time when Nadal and Murray were moaning about having to be woken up in the morning to give samples.

Remember very well. Fed said specifically asked for hsi samples to be frozen....and not "would not mind".

Well it's clear that doped or not Federer's game comes with outstanding talent and grace. I wish it was available in pills. I'd take some!

who wouldn't.....

But remember that in the Fuentes/Puerto case, it was McQuaid himself that said in 2006 that the list of 200 athletes contained other sports citing "football, cycling, and others.". He then had to retract and openly denied having said that.

The guy has been lying for years...and he is not very good at it!

I wonder if Noah has seen the list.

Tenez wrote:... the list of 200 athletes contained other sports citing "football, cycling, and others.".

I am assuming the list would have to go public during the case in January, or am I being naive?

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:... the list of 200 athletes contained other sports citing "football, cycling, and others.".

I am assuming the list would have to go public during the case in January, or am I being naive?

It will be made public apparently.

I would certainly like to see those names, though I am sceptical whether it will have any real big names mentioned. The lesser ones will get hung out to dry.

That may prove to be the catalyst in the big names in a sweat when the lesser athletes lobby for all things equal and call out the bigger names.

In terms of Federer and doping. If anything I think if he was and it is a big if, it would be more in health terms than performance enhancers. Like I said though. Big 'IF'

My favourite player, Murray. All that he has done for the cause of British tennis, like I said I have raised eye brows and if he doped, I would be bitterly disappointed.

Makes you wonder individually, what would you do if you worked with an athlete who wanted to dope or had been doping and what you would do? Would you continue and mask the deception? Or would shop them in knowing that your career as coach may well be over just for being associated with them?

legendkillar wrote:
Makes you wonder individually, what would you do if you worked with an athlete who wanted to dope or had been doping and what you would do? Would you continue and mask the deception? Or would shop them in knowing that your career as coach may well be over just for being associated with them?

Players and coaches are that close today I doubt there are any players who dope without their coaches' condoning & assisting it.
Everyone's got the choice.
Some prefer to have luxurious lifestyle; others - sweet sleep.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:... the list of 200 athletes contained other sports citing "football, cycling, and others.".

I am assuming the list would have to go public during the case in January, or am I being naive?

Naive not sure but it's the SPanish law which actually prevented it to go public 6 years ago. As mentioned the reason then was that blood doping was not illegal!!!!

Not sure about this january. They tried to burn and delete the files and any trace of evidence last year but for some reasons that was postponed.

Amritia3ee wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:... the list of 200 athletes contained other sports citing "football, cycling, and others.".

I am assuming the list would have to go public during the case in January, or am I being naive?

It will be made public apparently.

That would be brilliant!
Where did you find out about it?

Though let's be fair. If Nadal's name does not appear, will that spurn further curiosity and conspiracy? I know I have declared that the list might not out the high profile athletes, but will Nadal be given some breathing space from his detractors?

legendkillar wrote:Though let's be fair. If Nadal's name does not appear, will that spurn further curiosity and conspiracy? I know I have declared that the list might not out the high profile athletes, but will Nadal be given some breathing space from his detractors?

You'll have to wait and see....

legendkillar wrote:Makes you wonder individually, what would you do if you worked with an athlete who wanted to dope or had been doping and what you would do? Would you continue and mask the deception? Or would shop them in knowing that your career as coach may well be over just for being associated with them?

Easy. one works all his/her life to be the best and it's clear one is not going to accept being second best to a cheat...so one cheats, especially if you know the system is turning a blind eye to the top athlete.

This is why when people blame Djoko for taking extra time between points I have lots more time for him cause he is simply using the tricks which have allowed the pioneer in that matter to succeed. When in his Dec 2010 interview Djoko said he coudl have cut corners to get to the very top I find it extremelly enlightening ....especially knowing how well he did the following 10 months of that interview. Can you blame him or Murray if they doped? It's a difficult question.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Makes you wonder individually, what would you do if you worked with an athlete who wanted to dope or had been doping and what you would do? Would you continue and mask the deception? Or would shop them in knowing that your career as coach may well be over just for being associated with them?

Easy. one works all his/her life to be the best and it's clear one is not going to accept being second best to a cheat...so one cheats, especially if you know the system is turning a blind eye to the top athlete.

This is why when people blame Djoko for taking extra time between points I have lots more time for him cause he is simply using the tricks which have allowed the pioneer in that matter to succeed. When in his Dec 2010 interview Djoko said he coudl have cut corners to get to the very top I find it extremelly enlightening ....especially knowing how well he did the following 10 months of that interview. Can you blame him or Murray if they doped? It's a difficult question.

I love it when you pull that interview out of the bag esp as I've got it word perfect at the forefront of my mind....I'm afraid you read a bit into it. And this is not the fan in me saying it.

When exactly did Djokovic say that?

legendkillar wrote:Though let's be fair. If Nadal's name does not appear, will that spurn further curiosity and conspiracy? I know I have declared that the list might not out the high profile athletes, but will Nadal be given some breathing space from his detractors?

Not from me cause very simply I know one thing: It's simply impossible physiologically to hit the ball that hard and for so long. Exactly like it was impossible physiologically to ride the TDF that fast during LA's years.

There is no point looking beyond those simple facts!

And yes of course, some said a "freak" of nature back then....strangely now we have 3 freaks in tennis alone!

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Makes you wonder individually, what would you do if you worked with an athlete who wanted to dope or had been doping and what you would do? Would you continue and mask the deception? Or would shop them in knowing that your career as coach may well be over just for being associated with them?

Easy. one works all his/her life to be the best and it's clear one is not going to accept being second best to a cheat...so one cheats, especially if you know the system is turning a blind eye to the top athlete.

This is why when people blame Djoko for taking extra time between points I have lots more time for him cause he is simply using the tricks which have allowed the pioneer in that matter to succeed. When in his Dec 2010 interview Djoko said he coudl have cut corners to get to the very top I find it extremelly enlightening ....especially knowing how well he did the following 10 months of that interview. Can you blame him or Murray if they doped? It's a difficult question.

But individually how would it sit with you?

Say you had an athlete and his doctor was recommending doping and he did, would you cut ties with the athlete or head down and keep on with it?

I have to say that yes if one cheats and gets away with it why would the others not be spurred on by it. Yes Nadal hasn't warmed himself to me with some of his comments and some of his thoughts on tennis and where it should go in terms of the self benefits it had for him. I think sometimes Nadal get's hammered too much by detractors. Yes he certainly pushed the bar and the limits of the game and even the human body, but if other players are doping to match his brand of tennis, by all means do we hold Nadal accountable? I think there is only so much you can put on his shoulders. Yes the time rule irritates the life out of me, but it infuriates me more seeing piss weak chair umpires not enforcing the rules!

Amritia3ee wrote:When exactly did Djokovic say that?

As I said in Dec 2010!

noleisthebest wrote:
I love it when you pull that interview out of the bag esp as I've got it word perfect at the forefront of my mind....I'm afraid you read a bit into it. And this is not the fan in me saying it.

I don;t think there is any other way to read it. It's pretty clear!

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:
I love it when you pull that interview out of the bag esp as I've got it word perfect at the forefront of my mind....I'm afraid you read a bit into it. And this is not the fan in me saying it.

I don;t think there is any other way to read it. It's pretty clear!

I don't have the time to dig it out now, but you can, than we can talk
It was a video interview, so we have the extra advantage of body language, as well.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Though let's be fair. If Nadal's name does not appear, will that spurn further curiosity and conspiracy? I know I have declared that the list might not out the high profile athletes, but will Nadal be given some breathing space from his detractors?

Not from me cause very simply I know one thing: It's simply impossible physiologically to hit the ball that hard and for so long. Exactly like it was impossible physiologically to ride the TDF that fast during LA's years.

There is no point looking beyond those simple facts!

And yes of course, some said a "freak" of nature back then....strangely now we have 3 freaks in tennis alone!

You really want to nail his balls to the wall

I have to say I have seen it across all sports by where someone/team push the sport to new levels.

In case of the TDF. From what I heard from experts and others I know who have cycled at a high level that it is near on impossible to gain so much time in the mountain chase when your not known for that to be your main 'strength'

I raised questions on Roddick many moons ago as I for the life of me could not see how someone could serve that hard and not have a major shoulder injury! I can recall myself trying to cram the ball some and the next day needing the ice and even have someone stand on my shoulder as it felt like it came out of the socket!

legendkillar wrote:

I raised questions on Roddick many moons ago as I for the life of me could not see how someone could serve that hard and not have a major shoulder injury

You keep forgetting Roddick is an American!

They can run better, jump higher and longer, swim faster, serve harder.....

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:When exactly did Djokovic say that?

As I said in Dec 2010!

Kl kl.
Can you find me a link

Amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:When exactly did Djokovic say that?

As I said in Dec 2010!

Kl kl.
Can you find me a link

Talking of links, can you find the one which says the list with 200 names will be published during Fuentes trial.

noleisthebest wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:When exactly did Djokovic say that?

As I said in Dec 2010!

Kl kl.
Can you find me a link

Talking of link, can you find the one which says the list with 200 names will be published during Fuentes trial.

djlovesyou from 606v2 (who is convinced that usian bolt, blake, nadal and practically everyone is doping) informed me. Not sure if he is to be trusted or not, but there you go.
Anyway where's the link from the djokovic interview December 2010.

Amritia3ee wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:When exactly did Djokovic say that?

As I said in Dec 2010!

Kl kl.
Can you find me a link

Talking of link, can you find the one which says the list with 200 names will be published during Fuentes trial.

djlovesyou from 606v2 (who is convinced that usian bolt, blake, nadal and practically everyone is doping) informed me. Not sure if he is to be trusted or not, but there you go.
Anyway where's the link from the djokovic interview December 2010.

I'll find it when I've got the time. It's a lot of interviews to go through and I can't even remember what tournament it was. I am positive it wasn't incriminating him in any way.

Nothing spectacular to get your hopes high, I'm afraid.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:
I love it when you pull that interview out of the bag esp as I've got it word perfect at the forefront of my mind....I'm afraid you read a bit into it. And this is not the fan in me saying it.

I don;t think there is any other way to read it. It's pretty clear!

I don't have the time to dig it out now, but you can, than we can talk
It was a video interview, so we have the extra advantage of body language, as well.

Ah - I only saw the text form.

If you are really keen to know now, look through V2, Tenez did post it there at the time .

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:
I love it when you pull that interview out of the bag esp as I've got it word perfect at the forefront of my mind....I'm afraid you read a bit into it. And this is not the fan in me saying it.

I don;t think there is any other way to read it. It's pretty clear!

I don't have the time to dig it out now, but you can, than we can talk
It was a video interview, so we have the extra advantage of body language, as well.

Ah - I only saw the text form.

Where did you see it?

http://www.espn.co.uk/tennis/sport/story/67063.html

Last paragraph.

Thanks Tenez

I read it, I don't think it really implicates doping. He is talking about his funny personality (vs a more serious one) more than anything.

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:See THASP has a lot to offer you Laverfan,the world of tennis hasnt fallen because you decided to read a bit of whats discussed there.Plus you can even be selective in what your chose from there to back your arguments up with

No it does not. Richard Ings does. It is rather unfortunate that Richard Ings decided to not have this discussion with WADA/ITF but chose the THASP route.

As LK says, if the body has alternative pathways and can produce variants, there is no test which is conclusive or will ever be.

1-5 ng/ml is a tough nut to crack. If the body can be stimulated to take specific pathways which already have a blueprint, I do not envy Dick Pound or his successors, micro-doses or not.

Regarding the Gender confusion, Caster Semenya is the latest example. ( http://www.sbnation.com/london-olympics-2012/2012/8/11/3234345/caster-semenya-gender-controversy-brings-back-images-of-babe-didrikson )

Going back to images, here is one...

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Rafael+Nadal/Championships+Wimbledon+2012+Day+Four/1dD3_RvDKBt

See the body is relatively still and notice the RH vs LH difference. This is during the Rosol match.

One factor that I have noticed is that as high-speed photography becomes more prevalent, images during strenuous activity for athletes will cause further controversy.

Why would Richard not want to discuss whatever he found or learned during his time as chief director of Nandrolone?
I thought he was employed by WADA anyway,or at least he would have had to be linked to them.Going by his comments he clearly suggests that he was in contact with them

Where I was wrong in my previous comment to you about the link that was written by Magnus Norman was assuming that the tests actually detected Nandrolone- ie Deca Durobolin,I never knew a positive Nandrolone test was solely the result detecting an abnormal level of the hormone 19N
I find it hard to believe that considering the popularity of the steroid and its longevity on the steroid scene,that thats the way they run drug tests for the steroid.I always knew it could easily be traced in a urine sample,but this just exposes a huge flaw in drug testing and how pathetic it actually is.The test clearly leaves much room for grey areas,its not as black and white as a drug test should be.Not only that,as I mentioned earlier,theres even talk of the possibility that the method of testing could directly result in a higher level of 19N in urine samples
Basically whats happening is they run the tests and if 19N levels are below the allowed limited,its supposedly proves youre clean from Nandrolone.The test doesnt seem to conclude much else apart from that so no one will ever know if the levels of 19N are natural or related to drug abuse.The levels of 19N will significantly drop when cycling down and most people who use the drug will do a recovery cycle of other drugs and supplements to level out your hormone levels and bring your body back to "normal" after cycling up on steroids,so the test is totally pointless as most dopers would opt to cycle the drug out of competition

That whole episode about the South African runner was just was disgrace,did they really have to drag it out like a soap opera in the media and humiliate her in the process?
If they thought she was a hermaphrodite,why the hell didnt they run test first before making accusations.

Amritia3ee wrote:Thanks Tenez

I read it, I don't think it really implicates doping. He is talking about his funny personality (vs a more serious one) more than anything.

What did you expect? Him to spell it out? He is not talking about his funny personality, he is talking about being a "good" person....I guess as opposed being a "bad" person who wants to win at all cost.

I am amazed how you would want to read it differently. It's in teh same vein as congratulating the "winner AND his team". It's smart talking! and Nadal was not duped as he also return the compliment next time around.

Well he said he would remain a good person, he didn't say he'd change his attitude to win at all costs.
Also NITB mentioned that Djokovic stopped having gluten in his diet, could this explain how his stamina and endurance increased to the levels it did?
I think so.

legendkillar wrote:

Veejay wrote:Excellent points Legendkiller

I think the biggest problem about doping in sport is that no one really wants to talk about it.The first step to addressing the problem should be to get rid of whatever taboo is attached to the subject and have a frank open discussion about it.No need to name names, just create a healthy discussion and educate people about the truth,the ins and outs,put the correct information out there,cause even I have to admit that all our/my speculation ends up doing more damage then good
Until everyone,especially the professionals in the sport are willing to admit there is a problem things will only get bleaker
Yannick Noah tried to create debate,but went about it the wrong way by singling out an entire country
Thats where I think the real problem lies,the refusal to even admit there is a problem,and the general response to those who want to talk about it

I quite agree with that. Have top faces of the sports talk about it. Even if it does mean exposing weaknesses in the current testing program and methods which athletes go to to avoid detection.

I think if there was an open forum for athletes to talk about it, we might get rough idea who is comfortable about the subject and who isn't. It is all well and good athletes promoting fair play and clean sports and say no campaigns, but if athletes spoke of the ease it is to take banned substances and access them, maybe then WADA and other anti-doping agencies might find routes to close out.

Why can their not be a sporting forum for all athletes from many sports to have which talks about drug taking and other doping methods and talks about the risks, accessibility and punishments applied to such offences and what can be done to erradicate it.

I guess thats what the person behind the THASP blog had in mind
As corrupt as the world of cycling is,you have to commend them for trying to keep their sport clean,regardless of who it ends up exposing.The world of tennis seems to adopt the complete opposite attitude with regards to the doping issue as they dont even want to admit there is a problem.Nothing will ever change unless that changes
The plus side is that its become a hot topic that more and more people want to discuss.In the last year the doping argument has gone from lunatic conspiracy theories,to something thats being given a fair bit attention in the media

Veejay wrote:As corrupt as the world of cycling is,you have to commend them for trying to keep their sport clean,regardless of who it ends up exposing.

Not sure they tried very hard. If it was not for that German journalist reporting the Contador's results, I am not sure we would have ever known about it. And again it was USADA and not UCI who did the work there. If anything remember how a couple of months ago UCI and LA were trying to prevent the trial to go on with USADA. I think UCI is probably worse than LA...and The ITF/ATP not far behind.

Tenez wrote:

Veejay wrote:As corrupt as the world of cycling is,you have to commend them for trying to keep their sport clean,regardless of who it ends up exposing.

Not sure they tried very hard. If it was not for that German journalist reporting the Contador's results, I am not sure we would have ever known about it. And again it was USADA and not UCI who did the work there. If anything remember how a couple of months ago UCI and LA were trying to prevent the trial to go on with USADA. I think UCI is probably worse than LA...and The ITF/ATP not far behind.

Yes I recall you mentioned something about that and also how former TDF winner were supporting LA,well I guess the results we see in cycling is better then nothing that has to count for something
At least the cycling community admit there is a problem,they don't go around pretending that nothing is going on
I just dont think we will ever see a similar thing case like LA happen to one of the top players in tennis unless the tennis community are willing to accept that there is a problem

UCI are an absolute sham! they are a disgrace from getting paid off by lance to hush up failed tests and anti doping measures (that didn't involve himself) and spreading such calumny and slander!

luvsports! wrote:UCI are an absolute sham! they are a disgrace from getting paid off by lance to hush up failed tests and anti doping measures (that didn't involve himself) and spreading such calumny and slander!

Inspite of all of the above,the truth still somehow found a way to have the last laugh.
I expected him to again get away with it again,I never imagined that things would implode so spectacularly

I guess us tennis fans just need to be patient

I read this thread from the very beginning. I tried my best to keep as open mind as possible.

Some of the arguments and circumstances surrounding Nadal do look troubling. The thing is there is no way to disprove anything as these are only speculations. Even the most damning thing, that he failed a drug test is from a second hand. Do you really want to crucify this kid? And why?

Another thing that bothers me is absolute disdain for Nadal as a player and a human being. And all this from a bunch of totally blinded Federinas (NITB not withstanding).

And then Tenez, this guy is just a lunatic, everyone is doping, they are all evil, only Fed can save the World. Inhaler Novak used in one match is proof enough for him that he is a doper. Come on, the guy is a fruitcake.

Again, I hope to God none of them are doping, I would be very disappointed if Nadal's name shows up on that list. I would be absolutely crushed to find out that Nole was doping. But I promise to keep an open mind on this issue.

I am sorry I will not be able to post here again, have a nice life Tenez, tin foil and all.

I think that is quite rude to come and slate some of the posters on here.

What was the point if your going to be a one post guy?!

Johnnn wrote:I read this thread from the very beginning. I tried my best to keep as open mind as possible.

Some of the arguments and circumstances surrounding Nadal do look troubling. The thing is there is no way to disprove anything as these are only speculations. Even the most damning thing, that he failed a drug test is from a second hand. Do you really want to crucify this kid? And why?

Another thing that bothers me is absolute disdain for Nadal as a player and a human being. And all this from a bunch of totally blinded Federinas (NITB not withstanding).

And then Tenez, this guy is just a lunatic, everyone is doping, they are all evil, only Fed can save the World. Inhaler Novak used in one match is proof enough for him that he is a doper. Come on, the guy is a fruitcake.

Again, I hope to God none of them are doping, I would be very disappointed if Nadal's name shows up on that list. I would be absolutely crushed to find out that Nole was doping. But I promise to keep an open mind on this issue.

I am sorry I will not be able to post here again, have a nice life Tenez, tin foil and all.

Looks like you specifically signed up to take a cheap shot at someone rather then get involved in this discussion Jonty
Youre asking me why Ive lost all respect for Nadal? Im not the one to be blamed for the opinion Ive been forced into forming of him.You make it sound like the problem lies with me,I am not the one who breaks the rules,fakes and lies about injuries,get coached from the stand in just about every single match,tries to bully and intimidate the opposition like he did with Rosol,the list goes on and on and on,I could literally go on forever.Im not saying everyone else is innocent,but Nadals shenanigans are on a whole different level
Instead of recognising how fundamentally wrong every dirty trick,tactic,lie and any other form of poor sportsmanship is,you instead attack me for highlighting it.I am the one who is wrong for making a stand for integrity,ethics and good old fashioned sportsmanship.If you cant grasp the point by now then you most likely never will

I expect to be excommunicated from here by Moderator but here is hoping for the best.

I don't think Tenez deserves better, I don't think he holds anything back so I am sure he expects to receive the same.

Is this really you Jonty?

Welcome and make yourself at home. Here's a .
Now, the WTA championships have just started in Istambul, why not write a thread on it as you follow WTA?

Johnnn wrote:I expect to be excommunicated from here by Moderator but here is hoping for the best.

I don't think Tenez deserves better, I don't think he holds anything back so I am sure he expects to receive the same.

But youre the one losing sleep over it....

Johnnn wrote:I expect to be excommunicated from here by Moderator but here is hoping for the best.

I don't think Tenez deserves better, I don't think he holds anything back so I am sure he expects to receive the same.

Why do you think you'd be excommunicated? There is no thought police here like on some other forums. Civility prevails, and strong opinions flourish.
You obviously feel and think differently, feel free to fight tooth an nail.
Personal slandering is not encouraged or popular, though.