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Whither Djoko?

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:46 pm

So, what did we conclude?

Is "Djoko" coming or going?

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:57 pm

He won't get back to the very top, unless he has the luck of Fed and Nadal with most top players being injured. Tennis moves on.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Jahu on Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:35 pm

Djoko playing Miami, guy is simply just chasing sponsorship money, does not know where he is or wtf is he doing.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:54 pm

I can and I can’t believe he is playing Miami...but he needs matches...this is reminding me of Nadal’s mega slow comeback in 2013 (.?) when he was teying to play from the baseline.

That aside, my conclusion os that No,e’s will is so strong he’s gonna do it....no idea how, but he has no other choice.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:52 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I can and I can’t believe he is playing Miami...but he needs matches...this is reminding me of Nadal’s mega slow comeback in 2013 (.?) when he was teying to play from the baseline.

That aside, my conclusion os that No,e’s will is so strong he’s gonna do it....no idea how, but he has no other choice.
Yes he has a lot of willpower....this is his main strength actually. But when you have tested defeat or let's say flirted with the dark side then it becomes much harder to succeed on willpower alone..as it won;t be the same again.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:04 am

barrystar wrote:I know we are both talking about "potential" top 10 wins - and if you keep 3-4 Masters tournaments off your schedule and get knocked out early on in some of the ones you do play it is you primarily who has reduced the 'potential'.  Fed could have faced more top 10 players in 2004 had he played more Masters tournaments and gone deep in every draw.  He didn't; Djoko did in 2015 and maxed out.
Yes, he could have faced more top-10 players, but I think it is pretty clear from the numbers that he could not have faced them 36 times like Djokovic did no matter what (I quickly eyeballed it - and I think maybe at a stretch he could have gotten to 30).  Anyway, I thought it was in general obvious from the numbers that the max "potential" for Federer was in general far lower in 2004-07 than for Nole in 2011-16.  But I am not going to painstakingly go through all the tournaments to see how many top 10 players each of them could have faced (except noting that in 2006 where it is easy to check Fed could not have gone above 23), so if you think it is not clear from those numbers, so be it.

In the end, I do not think we disagree all that much anyway:

1.  I think we both agree that "dominance" is a somewhat nebulous term, that both Fed and Nole were very dominant during their best stretches.  I would view Fed as being more dominant of the two, you would perhaps pick Djokovic, but there is no clear cut right or wrong there.

2.  I also think that we both agree that even in the more narrow scope of "dominance over top 10" it is not quite clear what measures to employ, that total number of wins has its shortcomings (e.g., because the number of potential top 10 opponents is not fully in a player's control) as does the percentage of matches won (e.g., because of the reasons you mention).  I would say that, more often that not, percentage gives a better measure, you seem to think otherwise, but this is a rather niche question and reasonable people can disagree anyway.

So I will leave it at that.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:05 am

noleisthebest wrote:So, what did we conclude?

Is "Djoko" coming or going?
I just hope he retires.  He is almost 31, has had a good career, time to move on.  His heart is not in it anymore anyway.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by gallery play on Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:49 am

It's Becker's fault, he set the bar too high for his pupil: it burned him out eventually.
To me it's a case of getting his joy for playing back. if he does, there's no reason why he can't come back real strong.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Daniel on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:51 am

Djok can win the odd slam again.  But that's not nailed on.  Like most players, he may simply fade away at this age.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by barrystar on Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:50 am

summerblues wrote:
barrystar wrote:I know we are both talking about "potential" top 10 wins - and if you keep 3-4 Masters tournaments off your schedule and get knocked out early on in some of the ones you do play it is you primarily who has reduced the 'potential'.  Fed could have faced more top 10 players in 2004 had he played more Masters tournaments and gone deep in every draw.  He didn't; Djoko did in 2015 and maxed out.
Yes, he could have faced more top-10 players, but I think it is pretty clear from the numbers that he could not have faced them 36 times like Djokovic did no matter what (I quickly eyeballed it - and I think maybe at a stretch he could have gotten to 30).  Anyway, I thought it was in general obvious from the numbers that the max "potential" for Federer was in general far lower in 2004-07 than for Nole in 2011-16.  But I am not going to painstakingly go through all the tournaments to see how many top 10 players each of them could have faced (except noting that in 2006 where it is easy to check Fed could not have gone above 23), so if you think it is not clear from those numbers, so be it.

In the end, I do not think we disagree all that much anyway:

1.  I think we both agree that "dominance" is a somewhat nebulous term, that both Fed and Nole were very dominant during their best stretches.  I would view Fed as being more dominant of the two, you would perhaps pick Djokovic, but there is no clear cut right or wrong there.

2.  I also think that we both agree that even in the more narrow scope of "dominance over top 10" it is not quite clear what measures to employ, that total number of wins has its shortcomings (e.g., because the number of potential top 10 opponents is not fully in a player's control) as does the percentage of matches won (e.g., because of the reasons you mention).  I would say that, more often that not, percentage gives a better measure, you seem to think otherwise, but this is a rather niche question and reasonable people can disagree anyway.

So I will leave it at that.

Amen to that!

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by legendkillar on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:06 am

noleisthebest wrote:So, what did we conclude?

Is "Djoko" coming or going?

Going I fear. There's just no love being reciprocated to him. I think if there was a shred, it would be enough to feed motivation for sure.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:12 am

The global ecstasy at Federer's resurgence must be a wind-up to Djokovic. He must know that if he comes back it won't be made such a thing of.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:25 pm

bogbrush wrote:The global ecstasy at Federer's resurgence must be a wind-up to Djokovic. He must know that if he comes back it won't be made such a thing of.

That certaiily plays a part, but not that much...
It's Nole's dad that's stressed out by Fed.

A few years ago he made a mega stupid and annoying statement, stg to the effect: "What's the matter/wrong with Federer? Why is he still playing? Why doesn't he retire..."

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:27 pm

legendkillar wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:So, what did we conclude?

Is "Djoko" coming or going?

Going I fear. There's just no love being reciprocated to him. I think if there was a shred, it would be enough to feed motivation for sure.

Nole's main problem is fitness right now. And confidence.
But even if it was all back as in 2015, he'd be finding it harder to win.


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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:28 pm

gallery play wrote:It's Becker's fault, he set the bar too high for his pupil: it burned him out eventually.
To me it's a case of getting his joy for playing back. if he does, there's no reason why he can't come back real strong.

Becker surely burnt him physically. But what else could he do...he had a perfect winning machine and who wants to turn that off, knowing how hard it is to start it and build momentum.

The wife did the rest.

But I know the wolf inside him is still hungry and alive. Just a bit wounded.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:30 pm

summerblues wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:So, what did we conclude?

Is "Djoko" coming or going?
I just hope he retires.  He is almost 31, has had a good career, time to move on.  His heart is not in it anymore anyway.
How do you know that?

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:32 pm

Tenez wrote:He won't get back to the very top, unless he has the luck of Fed and Nadal with most top players being injured. Tennis moves on.
Yes, I have a similar feeling.
He has a very small window to come back, 2018&19.

Never underestimate that will, though.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by AceofDeath on Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:46 pm

I'll judge him next time he plays a top 10 player in a slam. He needs 2 more months before he can be anywhere near the top players, but really he doesn't look like he enjoys long rallies and it's the long rallies where he could take control in a match.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:20 pm

I just didn’t get how he looked so feeble and was completely gassed after a few undemanding sets. I mean, he was playing in Australia abd didn’t look like that.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:37 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
summerblues wrote:His heart is not in it anymore anyway.
How do you know that?
I do not know it for a fact, but the signs are there.  I do not believe his problems are entirely physical.  Dumping his entire winning team and working with a loopy guru do not point to a player focused 100% on tennis.  Did not Becker, after he left, also imply that Djokovic was not fully committed to tennis?

Plus, it is not unheard of in tennis.  Tennis is a lonely sport, with a lot of pressure on top.  Borg, Wilander, and to a lesser extent McEnroe, all cracked at one point and were never able to put it back together.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:52 pm

summerblues wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
summerblues wrote:His heart is not in it anymore anyway.
How do you know that?
I do not know it for a fact, but the signs are there.  I do not believe his problems are entirely physical.  Dumping his entire winning team and working with a loopy guru do not point to a player focused 100% on tennis.  Did not Becker, after he left, also imply that Djokovic was not fully committed to tennis?
Plus, it is not unheard of in tennis.  Tennis is a lonely sport, with a lot of pressure on top.  Borg, Wilander, and to a lesser extent McEnroe, all cracked at one point and were never able to put it back together.
Nole is a bit tougher than Borg, Mac and Wilander.

They stepped down because their game was passe.

Nole’s problems are completely different.

Watching Federer starting to profusely mention “his wife” with almost teary eyes every time he wins something tells me he wanted to quit the sport, too, and it was Mirka that picked up the pieces and told him - off you go to training!

Nothing wrong with that, on the contrary, but I am just illustrating how fine a line it all is behind the scenes.

Nole gets on my nerves for a million and one reason, but there is a bond there which wants him to get out this  pit on a human level, and I can only see him do it through tennis (if not through Jesus).

The desire to play is too strong to quit just like that.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:07 am

Nole's game is also obsolete. As mentioned before.....he won a lot but he won a lot of close matches....like Nadal. But suddenly they start to lose those close matches especially when the fitness is not what it used to be.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:12 am

We shall see, nitb.  Bookies have him as the main favorite for the USO - ahead of Fed! - so clearly not everyone agrees with me, but I do think he is not mentally there, and is unlikely to ever make it back.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:17 am

Tenez wrote:Nole's game is also obsolete. As mentioned before.....he won a lot but he won a lot of close matches....like Nadal. But suddenly they start to lose those close matches especially when the fitness is not what it used to be.

Nole’s game is a lot less obsolete than Nadal’s and Nadal was number one until recently, so I disagree.

Fed was also becoming obsolete until he changed the racquet.

I think a fit and healthy Nole can still win...we’ll see..

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:18 am

noleisthebest wrote:Nole’s game is a lot less obsolete than Nadal’s and Nadal was number one until recently, so I disagree.

Fed was also becoming obsolete until he changed the racquet.

I think a fit and healthy Nole can still win...we’ll see..

But Nadal has clay and clearly his game still works there as long as he can stay fit. Without clay Nadal woudl be no where number 1. Nole has not got that luxury. he has competition on all other surfaces.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:22 am

It is not just clay for Rafa.  Just last year, his results on HC were about as good as ever - all the way from the AO, IW, Miami through USO and fall.

Games do not become obsolete that quickly.  Both Nole and Nadal can still be successful with their games, maybe with some minor tinkering, if they can continue executing well.  I just do not think Nole will ever pick himself up again.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:25 am

Tenez wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Nole’s game is a lot less obsolete than Nadal’s and Nadal was number one until recently, so I disagree.

Fed was also becoming obsolete until he changed the racquet.

I think a fit and healthy Nole can still win...we’ll see..

But Nadal has clay and clearly his game still works there as long as he can stay fit. Without clay Nadal woudl be no where number 1. Nole has not got that luxury. he has competition on all other surfaces.

Nadal didn’t win RG in ‘15 and ‘16.
He was picking up mickey mouse tournaments like Monte Carlo in those years...

As soon as Nole and Stan were out with injuries he started winning on clay.

Even a fit Murray could cause him trouble now.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:09 am

summerblues wrote:It is not just clay for Rafa.  Just last year, his results on HC were about as good as ever - all the way from the AO, IW, Miami through USO and fall.
yes but Djoko would be capable of that outside clay too and I am sure an average fit Djoko woudl have caused Nadal trouble outside clay. Still Nadal grabbed around 50% of his points on clay and since he managed to win the USO playing like he does on clay and made the most of Djoko and Murray drop of form on clay and HC. What Nadal has and Djoko hasnt is a surface where he can feel confident his power can still make the difference against most players. Djoko can, even at his peak, struggle versus Dolgo, Simon, Fed or Kyrgios and many others.

Games do not become obsolete that quickly.  Both Nole and Nadal can still be successful with their games, maybe with some minor tinkering, if they can continue executing well.  I just do not think Nole will ever pick himself up again.
They do. In 2006 Fed's game suddenly looked outdated when facing Nadal. In 2011 Nadal's game became obsolete v Djoko.

Nadal on clay is a bit of an exception as it is simply based on power and stamina. So unless one can sustain those long rallies (which Djoko could at one stage) then he is going to have an extended lease.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:31 am

Tenez wrote:
summerblues wrote:Games do not become obsolete that quickly
They do. In 2006 Fed's game suddenly looked outdated when facing Nadal. In 2011 Nadal's game became obsolete v Djoko.
Fed and Rafa had both run into one extraordinary player who was able to beat them.  It takes much longer to become obsolete to the point where you cannot win big titles.  Nadal, even last year, another 6 years later, was still ahead of the field with basically the same game + some minor enhancements..  Similarly, Federer, in 2012 - also six years later - still won a slam with more-or-less the same game.  If Nole can get back to where he used to be, he will still be successful.  But I do not think he can.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:35 am

We will see. My point is I am sure that by the time he gets back to his best, youngsters will be able to beat him.

Nadal, and maybe Federer to an extend, are back to winning ways cause Djoko, Nishi, Murray, Stan dropped form.

Nadal is one who did not face many top players in his quest to number 1. he struggled against Zverev, Dimi in AO and we know now with a bit more perspective that those guys are far from being Slam material. Nadal only has a potent game on clay (or clay like) cause of his fitness.


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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:37 am

Q. What impressed you about Chung tonight? What about his game?

ROGER FEDERER: Good intensity. Solid in his mind. I like his speed of shots, you know, forehand and backhand. There’s always — yeah, it’s a heavy ball, and he’s very consistent. In today’s game, that’s a lot. And then he’s good on the defense, and he also likes to come to the net.

So I see a lot of good things moving forward for him.
===================
I was pleased to see Fed using the same words to describe Chung words.

I see Chung as a real threat on clay. His run last year was actually quite impressive, especially considering that he hardly played on it and yet managed to get to the QF v Nadal after having had to qualify.

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/hyeon-chung/ch27/player-activity?year=2017

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by gallery play on Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:03 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:Nole's game is also obsolete. As mentioned before.....he won a lot but he won a lot of close matches....like Nadal. But suddenly they start to lose those close matches especially when the fitness is not what it used to be.

Nole’s game is a lot less obsolete than Nadal’s and Nadal was number one until recently, so I disagree.

Fed was also becoming obsolete until he changed the racquet.

I think a fit and healthy Nole can still win...we’ll see..
Agree on that.
I don't believe in games being obsolete. Sure Fed's racquet did help, but it only helped him to execute his usual game a bit better. Before Wawrinka won 3 slams the SHBH was considered to be dead. S&V was dead, and yet guys like M zverev and Muller went deep in the second week of a slam. NAdal and his game, how often was he written off? 

It's all about execution. If a certain game is executed to perfection, it's going to be succesfull, no matter what type of game it is. As for Nole: we can't say his game is obsolete, because for now he's not close to his former self.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:49 am

gallery play wrote:Agree on that.
I don't believe in games being obsolete. Sure Fed's racquet did help, but it only helped him to execute his usual game a bit better. Before Wawrinka won 3 slams the SHBH was considered to be dead. S&V was dead, and yet guys like M zverev and Muller went deep in the second week of a slam. NAdal and his game, how often was he written off? 
I am not saying a type of game becomes obsolete though it can also happen (Wilander, Nystrom, Sundstrom moonballing v Mecir, SVing when new strings arrive), I am saying a player's game can become obsolete. Retrieving game by Nadal and Djoko making Hewitt outdated suddenly. Federer's is classy, so by definition is meant to resist the effect of time...but all those who had a similar game, Blake, Gasquet, Haas, got all a short successful career when the new generation arrived. Federer managed to survive it thanks to his amazing eye/hand coord. If I remember correctly, though my memory is not as good as yours, you also said that of Federer's game was obsolete (in 2014?) and that Stan was adapting better to the new game..until we saw what fed coudl really do with that new racquet. But Fed's game really looked outdated with his old racquet.

It's all about execution. If a certain game is executed to perfection, it's going to be succesfull, no matter what type of game it is. As for Nole: we can't say his game is obsolete, because for now he's not close to his former self.
I am not saying Nole's game is obsolete because he is not as good as then...I am saying he is obsolete cause I have seen players who will become better than him very soon.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:53 am

In fact to me Nishi had a better game than Djoko already when Djoko was at his best. Problem was NIshi's mind and injury but the best of Nishi was better than the best of Djoko. But it doesn;t mean he won't win anything from then on....but simply much less.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:35 pm

Tenez wrote:In fact to me Nishi had a better game than Djoko already when Djoko was at his best. Problem was NIshi's mind and injury but the best of Nishi was better than the best of Djoko. But it doesn;t mean he won't win anything from then on....but simply much less.
Not with his serve and his return.

Nishi is only better in short bursts.

I saw an injury free Nishi vs Nole in O2 SF a few years ago. Nishi was brilliant...but for less than a set, of course when he was behind.

Hasse was better than Fed in his first set in Rotterdam, too. He was actually outplaying him for a good part of it.

But one set doesn’t tell a full story, does it, and it’s not all about fitness, either.

With his ball-striking talent, Nishi should have done better when he was not injured, but why didn’t he?

Why does he allow emotions to influence his game?
I’d say probably because he doesn’t trust it enough.

There is a lot of depth in that sentence from Federer anout Chung:

“ yeah, it’s he’s very consistent. In today’s game, that’s a lot. “

And Nishi is simply too lightweight for today's game. Just like Kholi against Delpo yesterday.


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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:37 pm

It's going to be interesting to see how those 2 make their returns.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:48 pm

gallery play wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:Nole's game is also obsolete. As mentioned before.....he won a lot but he won a lot of close matches....like Nadal. But suddenly they start to lose those close matches especially when the fitness is not what it used to be.
Nole’s game is a lot less obsolete than Nadal’s and Nadal was number one until recently, so I disagree.
Fed was also becoming obsolete until he changed the racquet.
I think a fit and healthy Nole can still win...we’ll see..
Agree on that.
I don't believe in games being obsolete. Sure Fed's racquet did help, but it only helped him to execute his usual game a bit better. Before Wawrinka won 3 slams the SHBH was considered to be dead. S&V was dead, and yet guys like M zverev and Muller went deep in the second week of a slam. NAdal and his game, how often was he written off? 
It's all about execution. If a certain game is executed to perfection, it's going to be succesfull, no matter what type of game it is. As for Nole: we can't say his game is obsolete, because for now he's not close to his former self.

Yes, which is why Federer is still playing, going for the biggest titles, trusting his game, that tennis “chip” which is the same no matter what...while others of his generation have retired.

Nadal is quite a peculiar case because he, too has the same drive yet so much less “game” to rely on (and to me his main drive comes from wanting to overtake Fed in slams).

But with him, I feel it’s his legs, rather than arms that need to execute. His legs are his game, despite the big bicep. When he’s moving smoothly, all is well in his world.

Tennis is so complex and fascinating and I’m glad we we had this long dominance of a group of colourful players, we can analyse them to bits! Big Grin

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:02 pm

noleisthebest wrote:There is a lot of depth in that sentence from Federer anout Chung:

“ yeah, it’s he’s very consistent. In today’s game, that’s a lot. “
I had noticed this comment too smiley.  Fed has always liked to give backhanded compliments.  But his statement is true, no doubt about it.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:04 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I’m glad we we had this long dominance of a group of colourful players, we can analyse them to bits! Big Grin
Awwwww, you will miss Rafa. Shooo shweeet.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by gallery play on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:58 am

Tenez wrote:In fact to me Nishi had a better game than Djoko already when Djoko was at his best. Problem was NIshi's mind and injury but the best of Nishi was better than the best of Djoko. But it doesn;t mean he won't win anything from then on....but simply much less.

Nishi is a good example of someone with a game  which is difficult to execute. We know that if players like Nishi, Cilic or Safin execute well, they become unplayable. They can only win that way. But like a poker player who goes for 'all in' all the time: he wins big, but loses more often.

It's like in gymnastics: the final score is determined by the combination of the difficulty score and the execution score. That means that a slightly inferior gymnast will have to push the difficulty level in order to win. It's like going for broke. Like Nishi has to. Does that make him the better player? Some days: yes, but overall?

Nole did not have to push "the difficulty", because he executioned his game perfectly. And if he does again, it remains to be seen the Nextgen can stand up to it.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:35 am

gallery play wrote:Nishi is a good example of someone with a game  which is difficult to execute. We know that if players like Nishi, Cilic or Safin execute well, they become unplayable. They can only win that way. But like a poker player who goes for 'all in' all the time: he wins big, but loses more often.
Isn't Federer's game, even more difficult to execute? His talent, like Nishi's can make the difference. I would not put Nishi in the same league as Cilic. Cilic simply has not got that talent, he has the power and may have a good patch of a few games over 3 sets but in my view will always be "playable". Nishi can really be unplayable and make Nadal look stupid on clay or beat Djoko's best on hard. The problem is that he is physically and mentally weak but can beat those guys.

It's like in gymnastics: the final score is determined by the combination of the difficulty score and the execution score. That means that a slightly inferior gymnast will have to push the difficulty level in order to win. It's like going for broke. Like Nishi has to. Does that make him the better player? Some days: yes, but overall?
I see the point but again, I see this more in Cilic than Nishi. The latter just needs an injury free patch...which unfortunately may never happen as he tends to blame his fitness when his mind falters. However my point is he has the game, Cilic hasn't cause unlike Nishi, Cilic cannot cope with pace. Anyway Nadal and Djoko have a game which will suffer badly from now on. It took years for Nadal and Djoko to reach Coric's 21yo level and that is normal cause Coric was trained in a tougher arena than Nadal and Djoko were.

Nole did not have to push "the difficulty", because he executioned his game perfectly. And if he does again, it remains to be seen the Nextgen can stand up to it.
You say that but how many SPs and MPs did Nole (and Nadal) save over his career? He was the ultimate professional, being as fit as one can be and again, made the difference in those close matches by outlasting anyone. But iI did not see a game able to blast his opponent off the court. That nextgen can do that and are much better than Cilic at doing it...and hopefully fitter than Nishi!

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:25 am

gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:In fact to me Nishi had a better game than Djoko already when Djoko was at his best. Problem was NIshi's mind and injury but the best of Nishi was better than the best of Djoko. But it doesn;t mean he won't win anything from then on....but simply much less.

Nishi is a good example of someone with a game  which is difficult to execute. We know that if players like Nishi, Cilic or Safin execute well, they become unplayable. They can only win that way. But like a poker player who goes for 'all in' all the time: he wins big, but loses more often.
I.e. they simply don’t play within themselves...not enough depth in their arsenal, talent.

I have always thought that Nishi lacks that innate creativity, simething in his game is very Japanese and repetitive, at best it appears to look like a “flight”, but there is no element of quantum in it.
In a way he is similar to Fognini (though Fognini’s flights are genuine, and his best I’d always take over Nishi’s) Beautiful when on but how rarely can they pull it off?
gallery play wrote:
Nole did not have to push "the difficulty", because he executioned his game perfectly. And if he does again, it remains to be seen the Nextgen can stand up to it.
Exactly.
I am sure Nole could do a magical set like Nishi, but wouldn’t be able to maintain consistency.
Too tough on the nerves.

Only Federer is able to do it all the time.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:32 am

Tenez wrote:
I see the point but again, I see this more in Cilic than Nishi. The latter just needs an injury free patch...which unfortunately may never happen as he tends to blame his fitness when his mind falters. However my point is he has the game, Cilic hasn't cause unlike Nishi, Cilic cannot cope with pace. Anyway Nadal and Djoko have a game which will suffer badly from now on. It took years for Nadal and Djoko to reach Coric's 21yo level and that is normal cause Coric was trained in a tougher arena than Nadal and Djoko were.
Yes, but mind does not falter for no reason.
At the end of the day, Cilic’s best beat Nishi’s best in that USO final.

Nishi’s game hits glass celing simply because his game is lacking..serve!

So he has two options: try to play on his talent (which he does and we see how far it has taken him), or do a Ferrer and turn into a shotmaking rr...for which his body (coupled with the mind) is just too fragile.

So his whole game is stuck in this limbo of creativity vs efficiency.

At least he is trying to make the most of his talent, though he would’ve been probably even less successful in the fittnes option....so again he is playing the best he can, getting the most out of himself.
Don’t forget, he is a Bolettieri boy!

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:29 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Yes, but mind does not falter for no reason.
It does. This is the very reason why Djoko and Nadal chose to play with high margins at the expense of having to run more. Nishi needs to find is right balance and sometimes does but his fitness never gave him the ability to play steadily a risky game. But when he does, he is in my view the most dangerous player.

At the end of the day, Cilic’s best beat Nishi’s best in that USO final.
In spite of all his injures, Nishi still leads their H2H.

Nishi’s game hits glass celing simply because his game is lacking..serve!
Indeed. So imagine with a serve....

So he has two options: try to play on his talent (which he does and we see how far it has taken him), or do a Ferrer and turn into a shotmaking rr...for which his body (coupled with the mind) is just too fragile.

So his whole game is stuck in this limbo of creativity vs efficiency.
You coudl have said teh same of Stan at the same age. Let's wait and see.

At least he is trying to make the most of his talent, though he would’ve been probably even less successful in the fittnes option....so again he is playing the best he can, getting the most out of himself.
Don’t forget, he is a Bolettieri boy!
A bit like Nalbandian...He has not achieved much but on the day they can cream anyone. I don;t even Safin was good at his very best....And I liked Safin a lot.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:15 pm

On the basis of that crap at Miami I can’t see where he’s going. That was even worse than against Daniel in Indian Wells.

He seems done in by the end of the knock up and I cannot see what that’s got to do with a bad elbow or even a month or so out of the game.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Tenez on Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:55 pm

Yeah...not sure what it is..The mouvement is certainly not there, and the shots are either full of fear or elbow is still hurting.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:25 pm

I said it before and will say it again.  I do not believe his heart is in it anymore.  And that makes it very difficult to force himself to get ready.  I thought those comments about "finally having two pain-free days" were also telling.  A guy who has been out for almost a year will finally achieve pain-free days between his loss in IW and his first match in Miami?  Yeah, right.  To me it sounded like he was just trying to convince himself - on the cheap, without having to do the hard work - that things would now get better.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by summerblues on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:27 pm

I have to say that Djokovic vintage 2018 is my favorite Djokovic vintage.  Would love to have some more of that over the next few weeks.

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by Jahu on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:32 pm

Hahahaha

Now you all remember when I used to remind you lot here that DJOKO SUCKSSSS  Laugh Laugh

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Re: Whither Djoko?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:55 pm

At this rate we’ll have to wait until he’s unseeded to see him play Federer.

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