Nadal out for another 2 months

Veejay wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Veejay, hey liar are you going to back up your allegation I got you kicked off of 606v2. For once in your life can you back up one of your unfounded smears of other people?

Changing the subject again,geese...
I will give you browny points for at least trying,if I was you,I would have thought doing a runner would be better but I give you credit for sticking it out
Pity it only hurts your credibility far more then betters it...even bigger pity that you cant see it

I dont need any pity my friend, you are the one who has been exposed as liar, Smearjay. You make stuff up and use it to smear people. That is the kind of person you are frankly. So I won't let you change the subject, provide evidence of how I got you and others kicked out of 606v2, oh let me guess you don't have any.

I love it the guy gets caught lying and he thinks I am threatening to leave or asking for pity. No I am just driving the knife in right now and showing everyone on the site that you just make stuff up, that is why you will forever be Smearjay to me. You didn't have much credibilty to begin with but now it is incontestable that you make stuff up, to smear people. That is your modus operandi.

socal1976 wrote:I love it the guy gets caught lying and he thinks I am threatening to leave or asking for pity. No I am just driving the knife in right now and showing everyone on the site that you just make stuff up, that is why you will forever be Smearjay to me. You didn't have much credibilty to begin with but now it is incontestable that you make stuff up, to smear people. That is your modus operandi.

Youre still here? I thought you left
I guess
1 your threat was empty and you had no balls to follow through
2 I never lied like you claimed I did otherwise you would have left no?
3 all of the above and youre just trying to save face


Smearjay...luvs it..
I was just reading through the comments...you havent answered a single question,its quite clear you came onto this forum just to create a hostile atmosphere
You havent debated anything,you just came here to stir and to attack those who wish to talk about Nadals poor sportsmanship
Cause it drives people like you and Amritia crazy cause you know as well as I do that its true,if you could argue against it you would,instead you made this debate about my personal steroids use and tried to link it to being on the same level as cheating in a professional sport
Even Laverfan will admit to it cause she claimed he admits to it in his book
As for the "incontestable" stuff I make up...geese,you really love spending loads of time reading and responding to it
Even after claiming you had no time for me,no time for liars and little time for my writing style
Do you ever make a single comment without ending up contradicting yourself?

I dont need any pity my friend, you are the one who has been exposed as liar, Smearjay. You make stuff up and use it to smear people. That is the kind of person you are frankly. So I won't let you change the subject, provide evidence of how I got you and others kicked out of 606v2, oh let me guess you don't have any.[quote]


How have I been exposed as a liar?
I believe youre the one who claimed I lied about you having me banned from v2...
Seeing that I never have that would make you the liar no?

Like I said you now have two lies to explain.

1. I never threatened to leave, although you now claim I did.

2. I had nothing to do with anyone's expulsion from 606v2 despite your Smearjay that I did.

Until you address your massive credibility problem it isn't worth it to go into other subjects. Like I said if you are going to keep pulling things out of your ass, take a peak in there and see if you can find your head stuck up in there.

Veejay wrote:LMAO @ Socal...
Socal actually thinks threatening to leave this forum will ruin us...
Sorry Socal...we survived pretty well before you and we will survive even better without you...threatening to leave won't see our forum come crashing down

Lie #1 I never threatened to leave in fact I said I liked it here and never talked about ruining anyone or leaving anything. Do you think I am scared of debating you or anyone for that matter? You vastly overestimate the impact of your "one run on sentence style of writing" in a debate.

They all got rid of us cause they didnt like hearing the truth about Nadal,now they came here to try and prevent us from debating it too...
How pathetic is Socal going on about my writing style ...what a cop out...no one has complained up to now accept him...
He is just looking for excuses as to why he cant debate the actual subject



Lie number #2

Like I said you got caught lying twice in the span of 30 minutes, if anyone should run and hide in order to save the thin shred of credibility they possess it is you. Are you going to continue to Smearjay me? Or do you retract you lie and character assassination that I had anything to do with getting you, Tenez, and Nitb kicked off of 606v2. If I have so much pull over there why have I been banned twice over there temporarily? In short you are now a known quantity. A virulent liar with an agenda.

socal1976 wrote:Like I said you got caught lying twice in the span of 30 minutes, if anyone should run and hide in order to save the thin shred of credibility they possess it is you. Are you going to continue to Smearjay me? Or do you retract you lie and character assassination that I had anything to do with getting you, Tenez, and Nitb kicked off of 606v2. If I have so much pull over there why have I been banned twice over there temporarily? In short you are now a known quantity. A virulent liar with an agenda.

I wasnt caught in any lie...
I believe this is what you said..."I don't converse with a known liar till you either retract your lie that I got you kicked off of 606v2 and that I got tenez and Nitb kicked off of 606v2, I am done here

That clearly suggests youre done here,in fact it could be read that you made an ultimatum/threat that either I owned up to a lie or you were done with this forum.I told you you can leave,no one will miss you,even Amritia as he still comments on v2

This is what I said:

"They all got rid of us cause they didnt like hearing the truth about Nadal,now they came here to try and prevent us from debating it too..."
As you can see theres no Socal in there,but as I said if you wish to put Socal in there by all means go ahead,I could care less
If you want to call me a liar,thats fine,I wont be losing sleep over a liar calling me a liar..that in itself proves what a liar you are
If you wish to make this entire argument about who lied about what,then youre on your own...
But it comes as no surprise that you wish to talk about that rather then the actual subject
Gee...I wonder why...
I have to laugh though,you have brought absolutely nothing to the tabke by joining this forum,no information,nothing credible,nothing of any substance,you havent added anything worth while to the debate,nothing to strengthen the argument or strengthen the opposing opinion,all you have brought to the table is..."he lied about this,he lied about that" while proving you to be the biggest liar of them all"
Childish playground banter...

You do have a problem understanding the english language. I am done here does not mean quote "I am leaving the website", it means I am done with the conversation or the line of reasoning. Second, you lied again when you stated I had anything to do with getting you or any one kicked off of V2. The only person I have ever managed to get kicked off of V2 is myself, and temporarily at that. So again I provided the quotes and people interested in it can review the smear you levelled at me and make up their own mind.

You and Nitb accused me in having a role in your expulsion or leaving of 606v2, in fact I spoke up against kicking anyone out and my record exists to prove that fact. That is ok I don't expect honest debating from a guy who can't write in complete sentences, it is beyond your steroid soaked brain's capabilities.

You must be really mad at little old Socal, it must be 1 in the morning where you are. Well enjoy your late night treat. I just have on request man, please don't Smearjay me anymore.

Amritia3ee wrote:

Veejay wrote:LMAO @ Socal...
Socal actually thinks threatening to leave this forum will ruin us...

Is this another lie?
Sorry VJ, when did he say this?

Amrtia
Youve relly exposed your true colours tonight,yesterday you were acting like my best buddy sending me private messages,look how you have behaved tonight just because Socal arrived

socal1976 wrote:You do have a problem understanding the english language. I am done here does not mean quote "I am leaving the website", it means I am done with the conversation or the line of reasoning. Second, you lied again when you stated I had anything to do with getting you or any one kicked off of V2. The only person I have ever managed to get kicked off of V2 is myself, and temporarily at that. So again I provided the quotes and people interested in it can review the smear you levelled at me and make up their own mind.

You and Nitb accused me in having a role in your expulsion or leaving of 606v2, in fact I spoke up against kicking anyone out and my record exists to prove that fact. That is ok I don't expect honest debating from a guy who can't write in complete sentences, it is beyond your steroid soaked brain's capabilities.

No it seems you do...
Please explain to me how personal use of steroids is the same as cheating in a pro sport and please explain to me how that makes me a hypocrite
Seeing that you justify cheating please justify Nadals poor sportsmanship
I dont know what your attempt here is,if its to cover your ass,by all means go ahead I could care less,but don't ignore how suspicious that makes you look in the process...Im not here to debate who got who banned,I just found it funny how everyone seemed to have such a big problem with criticism of Nadal over on v2,yet some of the biggest mouths who couldnt wait to be rid of the Nadal hatred have now come here
I guess it must be really boring over on v2
Your insults to try and belittle me just make you look more pathetic,its a clear sign of someone who is way out of depth.If you could really hurt me with facts about the subject you would,but you cant so you try to personally attack me.
I find it hard to believe you're an attorney,I couldnt imagine anyone defending anything this way in a legal environment

Veejay wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:

Veejay wrote:LMAO @ Socal...
Socal actually thinks threatening to leave this forum will ruin us...

Is this another lie?
Sorry VJ, when did he say this?

Amrtia
Youve relly exposed your true colours tonight,yesterday you were acting like my best buddy sending me private messages,look how you have behaved tonight just because Socal arrived

Amiritia is one of the fairest posters I know, don't berate her because she pointed out how you misrepresented my comments. Tell me where did you get this idea that I claimed OTF would be "ruined" if I left? You made it up like most of things you have been saying. You made up a mythical claim that I was threatening to run off and that I was claiming OTF would be ruined without me, of course this is pure fantasy. Your addled mind got all of that from my quote, "I am done here". Where did you pull "ruin" out of? Plz put an end to the Smearjay campaign, end the madness now.

Let me explain to you again Veejay until you explain what evidence you have that I helped get people kicked off of V2 I won't address anything else. I will just call you the liar that you are, and keep repeating the lie that you told. So what evidence do you have that I was involved in the expulsion of anyone? You don't have anything because in fact the opposite is true.

[quote="socal1976"]

Veejay wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:

Veejay wrote:LMAO @ Socal...
Socal actually thinks threatening to leave this forum will ruin us...

Is this another lie?
Sorry VJ, when did he say this?

Amrtia
Youve relly exposed your true colours tonight,yesterday you were acting like my best buddy sending me private messages,look how you have behaved tonight just because Socal arrived

Amiritia is one of the fairest posters I know, don't berate her because she pointed out how you misrepresented my comments. Tell me where did you get this idea that I claimed OTF would be "ruined" if I left? You made it up like most of things you have been saying. You made up a mythical claim that I was going to run off and that OTF would be ruined without me, of course this is pure fantasy. Plz put an end to the Smearjay campaign, end the madness now.

I never said you claimed it,I said you thinked it...big difference

Why else would you make such an ultimatum? The whole "either you own up to lying or Im done"
Did you really think being done was going to scare me or anyone...
If you want to leave...go....no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to stay here
No one forced you to come here either
We were happy here without you and we will continue to be happy without you if you decide to leave
I guess seeing that youre STILL here means,I never lied or your ultimatum was just an empty threat,otherwise you would be gone by now no?
As for Amritia,shes done nothing but ass lick Socal's ass ever since you arrived,youre clearly loving it so obviously you will defend her- no brainer

socal1976 wrote:Let me explain to you again Veejay until you explain what evidence you have that I helped get people kicked off of V2 I won't address anything else. I will just call you the liar that you are, and keep repeating the lie that you told. So what evidence do you have that I was involved in the expulsion of anyone? You don't have anything because in fact the opposite is true.

You should read this,you may actually learn something about the subject of the debate

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-8723603

I'm done here means I am done with the conversation, not all the additional nonsense you added to it. That is a famous dishonest debating tactic called building a strawman. You misrepresent and lie about my comment and then attack the lie you created.

Bottom line Veejay, you levelled a very serious charge against me with no evidence and in fact I take offense because the opposite is true, at the time I spoke up against tenez and nitb being kicked off V2. I guess no one should be surprised that you make stuff up with no proof and use it to attack people. That seems to be your favorite hobby.

socal1976 wrote:Veejay why would you take pleasure in that if it happened to be true? I am sick of the scandal and disgrace. Haven't you admitted to substance abuse yourself? Even if Nadal did cheat would it make you happy to see the man destroyed, I don't think you are that vengeful of a person are you? All that does is hurt Nadal, his family, his friends, and the game of tennis itself.

What if Nadal did cheat? Well that is an interesting question. His game is based on power and stamina. As soon as he drops 1% of form he gets beaten by the likes of Dodig and Rosol....so clearly he is a player that would have made his name solely on his doctor's talent and therefore there is nothing I woudl like to remember for such individual. Just another LA.

If he is not a cheat that is a very different story and therefore we want to know.

It's quite different when considering Federer cause he has a very solid and efficient techinique and he has proven he can beat most other players without breaking much sweat so doping has not got quite the same impact when considering him. He might still be a cheat but he has much more in his game that cannot be given through a pill or injection. We cannot say teh same of other players.

And damn straight I will defend Amiritia, he is my friend and I will also defend Laverfan if I feel either is being bullied or unfairly criticized. And calling someone an asslicker in my mind is unfair criticism, for pointing out your misrepresentation politely by the way. If you call any other poster an asslicker I would defend them as well regardless of my affinity for them. At least they never used their own ass like pin cushions.

socal1976 wrote:I'm done here means I am done with the conversation, not all the additional nonsense you added to it. That is a famous dishonest debating tactic called building a strawman. You misrepresent and lie about my comment and then attack the lie you created.

Bottom line Veejay, you levelled a very serious charge against me with no evidence and in fact I take offense because the opposite is true, at the time I spoke up against tenez and nitb being kicked off V2. I guess no one should be surprised that you make stuff up with no proof and use it to attack people. That seems to be your favorite hobby.

Wheres the charge? Where did I ever say "Socal was behind the reason why everyone was banned"
Please show me where I said that
If its such a serious charge why don't you sue me for defamation of characther or libel?
Everyone here knows I told Gav he could shove his forum up his ass and told him to delete my profile so I dont know where you coming off saying I claimed you were behind it
Your grasping a straws here,youre making a much bigger thing out of this cause you cant debate the subject at hand
I will be waiting for your evidence to prove I said that..in the mean time heres more stuff you can learn about the subject we were on before you butt in

http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2011/06/rafael_nadal_and_the_dark_art.html

Tenez wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Veejay why would you take pleasure in that if it happened to be true? I am sick of the scandal and disgrace. Haven't you admitted to substance abuse yourself? Even if Nadal did cheat would it make you happy to see the man destroyed, I don't think you are that vengeful of a person are you? All that does is hurt Nadal, his family, his friends, and the game of tennis itself.

What if Nadal did cheat? Well that is an interesting question. His game is based on power and stamina. As soon as he drops 1% of form he gets beaten by the likes of Dodig and Rosol....so clearly he is a player that would have made his name solely on his doctor's talent and therefore there is nothing I woudl like to remember for such individual. Just another LA.

If he is not a cheat that is a very different story and therefore we want to know.

It's quite different when considering Federer cause he has a very solid and efficient techinique and he has proven he can beat most other players without breaking much sweat so doping has not got quite the same impact when considering him. He might still be a cheat but he has much more in his game that cannot be given through a pill or injection. We cannot say teh same of other players.

But Tenez, even you must see he isn't the only one (if for argument sake he is doping) and my point is a larger societal and philosophical question. In this drug infested society is it appropriate to single out pro athletes for a standard that society itself does not follow. If you remember I have until recently been 100 against PEDs and for stricter enforcement like all of you. But recently I just got sick of it, maybe I was demoralized by all the doping scandals. What we have right now is a cycle of player deceit, then the rumor mill, then the endless investigations, and finally someone's sporting hero is destoryed and torn to shreds. The current system is not working, we either have to get super invasive with the testing and go after athletes really hard from now till the day they die or we might have to look at other solutions.

socal1976 wrote:And damn straight I will defend Amiritia, he is my friend and I will also defend Laverfan if I feel either is being bullied or unfairly criticized. And calling someone an asslicker in my mind is unfair criticism, for pointing out your misrepresentation politely by the way. If you call any other poster an asslicker I would defend them as well regardless of my affinity for them. At least they never used their own ass like pin cushions.

Heres more stuff you can learn about the subject at hand

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/tennis/3670565/John-McEnroe-tells-Andy-Murray-not-to-put-up-with-Rafa-Nadals-mind-games.html#ixzz1QoomjUA8

Tenez wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Veejay why would you take pleasure in that if it happened to be true? I am sick of the scandal and disgrace. Haven't you admitted to substance abuse yourself? Even if Nadal did cheat would it make you happy to see the man destroyed, I don't think you are that vengeful of a person are you? All that does is hurt Nadal, his family, his friends, and the game of tennis itself.

What if Nadal did cheat? Well that is an interesting question. His game is based on power and stamina. As soon as he drops 1% of form he gets beaten by the likes of Dodig and Rosol....so clearly he is a player that would have made his name solely on his doctor's talent and therefore there is nothing I woudl like to remember for such individual. Just another LA.

If he is not a cheat that is a very different story and therefore we want to know.

It's quite different when considering Federer cause he has a very solid and efficient techinique and he has proven he can beat most other players without breaking much sweat so doping has not got quite the same impact when considering him. He might still be a cheat but he has much more in his game that cannot be given through a pill or injection. We cannot say teh same of other players.

Jesus Christ Federinez,

Anyone can run into Rosol on a given day.

DelPo was not exactly lighting it up in Basel, Fed was just sub par. Rosol from W would have beaten him too. It has happened to Fed before.

Fed is not the dominant talent you think he is. He can beat anyone on a given day but he can also get beat by any of the other top 3 + Berd, Tsonga. DelPo if they play inspired game. Fed is the weakest link among top 4. I have no idea why are you blind to these facts. Fed's game has many things that are not top notch. His BH is a liability. He cannot win a rally against any of the top 3. He has the easiest time with Novak as Novak has a hard time reading his serve. This typical leads to frustration and lower level of play. Rafa has no such issues. He reads Fed easily and beats him like a drum.

You keep insisting that Rafa needs stamina and endurance to play yet that is never an issue in Rafa/Fed H2H. Rafa just owns Fed because he takes advantage of Feds weaknesses.

Amritia3ee wrote:Veejay, why does Laverfan asking a question make something the official thread topic? If LF asks you a question, your respond to LF.

Anyway I'm sorry I'm frankly disgusted by your disgraceful shameful post which you have not yet apologised for.

Do you still not understand?
Laverfan asked me a question,Tenez made a comment,I restated what my opinion was and then Socal butted in
When did I ever say this was the oficial topic.This is what were were debating and this is what Scoal decided to stick his nose into
You and Socal have a really bad habit of putting words in peoples mouths

legendkillar wrote:Veejay,

I do recall the Wimbledon match with Del Potro in 2011 the first set by where he called an MTO during the TB IIRC. Del Potro didn't complain, but to me the timing was odd and I felt it was 'gamesmanship' given how close the match was at that point.

Now beyond that, I can only recall the Wimbledon match with Rosol where he was up to little mind games. I can't recall anything that was prominent in Nadal winning a match.

He did the same thing the year before in a bumpy victory against Petzchner at Wimbledon
He did the same thing to Federer at last years RG when Roger was about to serve for the 1st set
He did the same thing to Federer at IW earlier this year
His on court coaching has a direct impact in matches,like the AO for instance
He was losing pretty badly to Berdych,it was not till his uncle signalled for him to move in on Berdychs serve was he finally able to break Berdcyh and that changed the entire dynamic of the match
If Nadal couldnt have figured that out on his own by that stage that its fair to say he never would have if his uncle didnt signal it to him
I had a link about Djokovics father complaining about how much coaching Nadal was receiving in the RG final but I cant find it
Look it may seem like I single one player out but seriously,show me one player out there who is accused of everything Nadal is,shoe mw one player who has these kinds of articles writen about them,not even Serena and the media tend to hate her
I know Im not imagining this cause the links I posted confirms that Im not the only one who saw what I saw
The commentators constantly speak about his on court coaching but none of them have the balls to really call him out on it,they just try to be very diplomatic about it
Theres no 'being diplomatic" the rules are the rules,everyone has to abide by them,if you dont you break the rules-case closed

Veejay wrote:Then theres all the on court coaching...thats cheating no?

Yes, for which a fine at W was paid. What bothers me more is the emotionally charged response on this subject. Can you help explain, if Cedric Mourier can call a coaching penalty, why are the rest of umpires not calling it? Are they incompetent, despite having the authority to do so.

Veejay wrote:I had a link of Djokovics father complaining that the whole RG final, Nadal was being coached by his uncle but I cant find it.

Yes, and there is also stuff in his post-USO 2010 interview. Again, why are umpires so clueless but fans are so much better than the chair umpires that they can discern such instances? BTW, did you know there were microphones at USO 2012 in players boxes?

Veejay wrote:Then there the bullying like what he did to Rosol,may not be cheating but bumping into someone like that is a clear rule break
Thats not the only rules he breaks

1. ATP Rules 8.03 Player Conduct Section M, 4, c

i) Players shall not at any time physically abuse any official, opponent, spectator or other person within the precincts of the tournament site. For purposes of this rule, physical abuse is the unauthorized touching of an official, opponent, and spectator or other person.
ii) Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $10,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match, the player shall be penalized in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule. In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, a single violation of this section shall also constitute the player Major Offense of Aggravated Behavior.

Why was this rule not enforced by the chair umpire, Jack Garner, IIRC? Rosol could also have complained, either during or after the match.

2. He apologised, Rosol did not make a big deal, umpires did not intervene, but yet, this forum is still hung up on that incident. Why?

Q. In the second set he bumped into you on a changeover. Do you feel he did that on purpose?
LUKAS ROSOL: Yeah, it's okay. He wanted to take my concentration. It was in second set or third set? Yeah, but it was okay. I mean, I knew that he will try something, but I was concentrate and was good.

Q. Why do you think he was upset?
LUKAS ROSOL: He was not upset. He talked to me a little bit. He just wanted to take my concentration. I think it's normal somebody do it like this.

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=81114

Veejay wrote:He breaks the serving rule to upset his opponents rhythm and also tries to slow matches down the the pace he wants it to be played at which also impacts his opponents rhythm or their momentum he is forever pulling a trick or doing something that takes something away from his opponent and gives him a better advantage

Please start watching at 38:00+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woUp5TTHybQ

I was planning to a full transcript of the discussion and post it here, but our discussion preempted that.

Also, are his opponents' concentration so fragile, but Nadal's must be much better, that he can do these side tricks, and yet win majority of his matches? (also the clip is very clear... 25 seconds is not the factor that determines the outcome of the match)

@Johnnn... let us not bash Federer as well. Remember Federer is 31+ now. The other Top 3 are a few years younger and have quite a bit of Tennis left in them. Nadal came on the scene in 2005, but there is still an age gap.

We need a less emotional discussion.

laverfan wrote:@Johnnn... let us not bash Federer as well. Remember Federer is 31+ now. The other Top 3 are a few years younger and have quite a bit of Tennis left in them. Nadal came on the scene in 2005, but there is still an age gap.

We need a less emotional discussion.

I do not feel like I have been bashing Federer at all. He is a great player with unmatched achievements but he is certainly not what some here think he is. I do not see him as technically superior in every way to any of the top 4. To me the most remarkable thing about Fed is his court sense. He understands what the probabilities are of each of his options on every inch of the court, he sort of has mapping in his head that is unmatched. But, he also has weaknesses.

why are the rest of umpires not calling it

I dont know why umpires dont enforce the rules of the game better,Im not an umpire and neither are you so we cant really speak for them,only assume things like perhaps its because they dont see everything we do or the camera does,or maybe its just because they think Nadal is bigger then the game and overlook these things
Perhaps they are part of the problem,but regardless of that,just because Nadal is getting away with it doesnt make it right,nor does it mean he isnt doing anything wrong
It also doesnt mean that getting away with it justifies it,breaking the rules of the game is still breaking the rules of the game which all equates to cheating
No pro athlete should even be trying to breaks the rules of the game to get an unfair advantage,regardless of whether they are successful or not,thats irrelevant,the the action of breaking the rule is whats wrong,not the result there of
I.E its not wrong if it doesnt result in what Nadal hoped for and only wrong if it results in what he set out to achieve.No,in both instances its wrong
I see you didnt address any of the links I posted Laverfan,did you not read them or if you did,why have you ignored it?
Clearly many believe that while Nadal may be within his rights,bending and abusing rules the way he does is considered cheating

About bumping into the Rosol,all of what youre saying is fine and dandy but its a prime example of the core of Nadals character.This is truly his nature and exactly what I mean by why the sport will be better off without him and what we are referring to when speaking about his poor sportsmanship
You dont see this nature in any of the other players ,the way Nadal bumped into Rosol was really hostile,I have never seen a tennis player behave so badly,You may think is innocent but its exactly the way someone goes about picking a fight,to push someone like that,Rosol even waited for him and he still tried to intimidate him
Nadal cant keep doing these things and then afterward just say sorry,sorry isnt enough when its your motive,at some point you have to realise that he is doing it because he knows he can get away with it by just saying sorry afterwards and then everything will be ok till the next match.You have to draw the line somewhere
You dont see this character in any of the other players,they are never trying every trick they can to upset or disrupt their opponent.The tactics Nadal resorts to is fundamentally wrong in the spirit of sport
He is the only player out there who has articles like the ones I posted written about him,that speaks volumes,if it was all as innocent as youre trying to portray it is,then those articles wouldnt have been written in the first place

Socal said:
An antiobiotic is also a performance enahcing drug, so are anti inflammatories, and dozens of other approved medications

Can you go into detail about that please,take us though step by step which antibiotics,anti inflammatories and dozens of other approved medications are performance enhancing
What makes them performance enhancing?
And seeing that you claim that I am nothing more then an "unabashed user who has no interest in cleaning up PEDS" can you take us through a detailed plan on how you propose the sport cleans up the PED problem

Veejay wrote:

Socal said:
An antiobiotic is also a performance enahcing drug, so are anti inflammatories, and dozens of other approved medications

Can you go into detail about that please,take us though step by step which antibiotics,anti inflammatories and dozens of other approved medications are performance enhancing
What makes them performance enhancing?
And seeing that you claim that I am nothing more then an "unabashed user who has no interest in cleaning up PEDS" can you take us through a detailed plan on how you propose the sport cleans up the PED problem

Yes I can but I got to watch my La Lakers season opener right now, but since you asked so nicely tomorrow I will give you a specific, point by point plan that you can look at. But please, i tell you this because I want to benefit both of us, try to follow the normal rules of syntax and sentence structure, I am not making this up, it really is confusing and hard on the eyes.

laverfan wrote:

SR wrote:"@SR... non-believers is a phrase used to denigrate religions."

LF, says who? What’s the basis of this random statement?
Can you clarify what you’re trying to say?

There is a stronger word - infidel - which implies lack of fidelity, loyalty, true faith, etc. It seems to me that there is line being drawn between believers and non-believers, which is an over-simplification. Does that help clarify?

Not really, but thanks. I never intended to drag religion into tennis and I haven't a clue why you've done so. YOu can't clarify anything by purposefully going out of context, You've only added more confusion to the big picture, you know that.

laverfan wrote:

SR wrote:...you remain silent about LF apologizing for calling me (indirectly) a "religious fanatic"?

Your choice of the language was called religious fanatics'. I would strongly recommend looking at the usage of an apostrophe. But I guess you have moved on...

No need. No usage of an apostrophe or any other punctuation marks can cover up a fantastic bluff you made up. I think where you live they call it the language of phony-baloney. You just don't have the guts to attack me directly. You go around and attacked my "language" instead. What's the difference? An attack is an attack.

So yes I have moved on.

But you haven't - you're stuck. Tough.

Veejay wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Veejay,

I do recall the Wimbledon match with Del Potro in 2011 the first set by where he called an MTO during the TB IIRC. Del Potro didn't complain, but to me the timing was odd and I felt it was 'gamesmanship' given how close the match was at that point.

Now beyond that, I can only recall the Wimbledon match with Rosol where he was up to little mind games. I can't recall anything that was prominent in Nadal winning a match.

He did the same thing the year before in a bumpy victory against Petzchner at Wimbledon
He did the same thing to Federer at last years RG when Roger was about to serve for the 1st set
He did the same thing to Federer at IW earlier this year
His on court coaching has a direct impact in matches,like the AO for instance
He was losing pretty badly to Berdych,it was not till his uncle signalled for him to move in on Berdychs serve was he finally able to break Berdcyh and that changed the entire dynamic of the match
If Nadal couldnt have figured that out on his own by that stage that its fair to say he never would have if his uncle didnt signal it to him
I had a link about Djokovics father complaining about how much coaching Nadal was receiving in the RG final but I cant find it
Look it may seem like I single one player out but seriously,show me one player out there who is accused of everything Nadal is,shoe mw one player who has these kinds of articles writen about them,not even Serena and the media tend to hate her
I know Im not imagining this cause the links I posted confirms that Im not the only one who saw what I saw
The commentators constantly speak about his on court coaching but none of them have the balls to really call him out on it,they just try to be very diplomatic about it
Theres no 'being diplomatic" the rules are the rules,everyone has to abide by them,if you dont you break the rules-case closed

I am partially with LF. I agree that Nadal himself has a personal responsibility to adhere to the rules of the game, that said I think the umpires to enforce the rules. Rosol coming out and being able to rise above it and expect it shows a hell of a lot of maturity given it was their first encounter. If players are really affected by his gamesmanship, they have a voice and they can complain to the umpire or even bring it to the attention of the players council. There are many routes players can go down if they feel the rules are being flauted to such an extent and manner. People can read many things into MTO's and such. There was Murray at the FO and also Federer himself at Wimbledon.

I look at tennis being very lenient. Look at football. Players foul and dive. They get penalised on the pitch. Sometimes they can be financially penalised. Cricket if players conduct is not up to standards, they are fined. The ATP/ITF could easily fine players for time infringements or the pace of the match or lack of effort. I think much rather than jump on the players and carry out full character assassinations, why not look at the ATP/ITF and hope that players/officials can lean on them to bring in deterrants to rule breakers. If players were fined for improper conduct, you will see a massive improvement in the players attitude and conduct.

In cricket they fine the captain of the bowling team for slow over-rate I believe.

I am appalled by Veejay's lies and fake allegations.

And let's not mention his disgusting comment about 'Nadal' and 'Hitler.'. He's crossed the boundary there I'm afraid.

Amritia3ee wrote:I am appalled by Veejay's lies and fake allegations.

And let's not mention his disgusting comment about 'Nadal' and 'Hitler.'. He's crossed the boundary there I'm afraid.

I just don't understand you nadal fans. You come over hear to bitch about how disgusted you are and yet you're glued to OTF. Why don't you just stay in v2 where you can hear all the nice things about nadal? Better yet, why don't you just join a Nadal fan site? Get over it, amri, don't waste your love for nadal here and accept the fact that as much as you love the guy, there are plenty of people who can't stand him. And in this special forum, there is no censorship or self-censorship, lies, allegations not withstanding, OK?

lol

You don't like Nadal, Tenez doesn't like Nadal etc. I'm fine with that.

What did cross the line though is Veejay's comments with Nadal and Hitler, and I don't think you have to be a Nadal fan to recognise that.

So what? No body else seems to care?

socal1976 wrote:


But Tenez, even you must see he isn't the only one (if for argument sake he is doping) and my point is a larger societal and philosophical question. In this drug infested society is it appropriate to single out pro athletes for a standard that society itself does not follow. If you remember I have until recently been 100 against PEDs and for stricter enforcement like all of you. But recently I just got sick of it, maybe I was demoralized by all the doping scandals. What we have right now is a cycle of player deceit, then the rumor mill, then the endless investigations, and finally someone's sporting hero is destoryed and torn to shreds. The current system is not working, we either have to get super invasive with the testing and go after athletes really hard from now till the day they die or we might have to look at other solutions.

No you right Nadal isn't the only, but he certainly is the one that made it obvious at the very top. LA was certainly not teh only one but he belongs to those people who can be successful essentially based on doping and it gives the others a green light to dope too....no different to what happened with time taken between points (which is also linked to doping BTW). Djokovic, Delpo and Murray now may never had that habit if Nadal popularity had not made it acceptable.

Regarding you being demoralised by all the doping scandals I understand but we simply have no choice but to keep on the fight. The LA case is excellent as it can make some think about the downside of being exposed. I will stop watching any sport including tennis teh day PEDs are validated. I will just keep an unhealthy interest in the sport's obituaries section.

Amritia3ee wrote:I am appalled by Veejay's lies and fake allegations.

And let's not mention his disgusting comment about 'Nadal' and 'Hitler.'. He's crossed the boundary there I'm afraid.

Im still waiting for you and Socal to point you those lies and fake allegations
If I am lying why hasnt anyone else picked up on that?
The two of you have done nothing but go on some kind of smearing crusade since Socal arrived here,instead of sticking to debating the subject,because if you could have hurt me with actual fact of the debate you would have by now,but seeing that you cant,you personally attack me to try (key word) and take my credibility away
Pity you failed so miserably
If youre so appalled by what I said,why not spare yourself from being appalled and leave the forum...no one is forcing you to stay here and put up with being appalled.Practice your free will by either leaving,or shutting up and debating the subjects
Youve been going on and on about what a wonderful place v2 is,so why are you here putting up with all this " being appalled" crap?
Can you give me one logical explanation?
If you really want me to give you a real reason to be appalled just ask..

legendkillar wrote:

Veejay wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Veejay,

I do recall the Wimbledon match with Del Potro in 2011 the first set by where he called an MTO during the TB IIRC. Del Potro didn't complain, but to me the timing was odd and I felt it was 'gamesmanship' given how close the match was at that point.

Now beyond that, I can only recall the Wimbledon match with Rosol where he was up to little mind games. I can't recall anything that was prominent in Nadal winning a match.

He did the same thing the year before in a bumpy victory against Petzchner at Wimbledon
He did the same thing to Federer at last years RG when Roger was about to serve for the 1st set
He did the same thing to Federer at IW earlier this year
His on court coaching has a direct impact in matches,like the AO for instance
He was losing pretty badly to Berdych,it was not till his uncle signalled for him to move in on Berdychs serve was he finally able to break Berdcyh and that changed the entire dynamic of the match
If Nadal couldnt have figured that out on his own by that stage that its fair to say he never would have if his uncle didnt signal it to him
I had a link about Djokovics father complaining about how much coaching Nadal was receiving in the RG final but I cant find it
Look it may seem like I single one player out but seriously,show me one player out there who is accused of everything Nadal is,shoe mw one player who has these kinds of articles writen about them,not even Serena and the media tend to hate her
I know Im not imagining this cause the links I posted confirms that Im not the only one who saw what I saw
The commentators constantly speak about his on court coaching but none of them have the balls to really call him out on it,they just try to be very diplomatic about it
Theres no 'being diplomatic" the rules are the rules,everyone has to abide by them,if you dont you break the rules-case closed

I am partially with LF. I agree that Nadal himself has a personal responsibility to adhere to the rules of the game, that said I think the umpires to enforce the rules. Rosol coming out and being able to rise above it and expect it shows a hell of a lot of maturity given it was their first encounter. If players are really affected by his gamesmanship, they have a voice and they can complain to the umpire or even bring it to the attention of the players council. There are many routes players can go down if they feel the rules are being flauted to such an extent and manner. People can read many things into MTO's and such. There was Murray at the FO and also Federer himself at Wimbledon.

I look at tennis being very lenient. Look at football. Players foul and dive. They get penalised on the pitch. Sometimes they can be financially penalised. Cricket if players conduct is not up to standards, they are fined. The ATP/ITF could easily fine players for time infringements or the pace of the match or lack of effort. I think much rather than jump on the players and carry out full character assassinations, why not look at the ATP/ITF and hope that players/officials can lean on them to bring in deterrants to rule breakers. If players were fined for improper conduct, you will see a massive improvement in the players attitude and conduct.

The main issue here is that the rules are the rules,either you have the rules and everyone (including Nadal) abides by it,or you dont have the rules,but you cant have it both ways
Its frustrating seeing one rule being applied to one player and another rule being applied to another player,so I agree there needs to be more consistency across the board.I know life is full of double standards but this is sport and there are people who are paid to try and enforce the rules of the game and ensure the game is fair for all.So maybe the blame does partially lie with the umpires,but that still doesnt mean that it entitles a player to bend or the break the rules.That is really where the essence of the wrong lies,cause no player should be trying to take advantage in any sense
I dont know why players dont take things up with the umpire,the Del Potro camp only accused Nadal of gamesmanship after the match.Federer only complained about Nadal taking his time during a press conference.You have point that they should have said something during the match,but I still maintain that however Nadals tactics affects his opponent is not the crime.The criminal is the one who is breaking or bending the rules,we shouldn't try to put the blame elsewhere and say that players should deal with such situations better,we should be saying that no player should even be trying to pull such dirty tricks in the first place.
Point the finger at the culprit not the victim and say the victim should learn to deal with what the culprit does better
The victim hasnt done anything wrong,the culprit has,the victim shouldnt even have to learn to deal with such situations because the culprit shouldnt be doing it in the first place

Even Big Mac suggested players should bend the umpires ear when facing Nadal.

Yes rules are rules, but so many in various sports are bent or broken. For me tennis is too lenient. I think the whole violation warning does nothing. For me fine the bugger. Look at his set times and say "look this is taking the piss as it is not just affecting your opponent, but the schedule too."

Fine him. His appearance fee or chunk of prize money. I think the ATP/ITF are soft. The umpires are. The players complain after the match and it seems they never learn from it as they tow the line even if Nadal use the same tricks. The umpires should intervene. We see that stats of average time between points and even Murray and Djokovic were pushing it to new heights in Shanghai and nothing was said or done. Come on umpires. Grow a set.

Veejay wrote:

why are the rest of umpires not calling it

I dont know why umpires dont enforce the rules of the game better,Im not an umpire and neither are you so we cant really speak for them,only assume things like perhaps its because they dont see everything we do or the camera does,or maybe its just because they think Nadal is bigger then the game and overlook these things
Perhaps they are part of the problem,but regardless of that,just because Nadal is getting away with it doesnt make it right,nor does it mean he isnt doing anything wrong
It also doesnt mean that getting away with it justifies it,breaking the rules of the game is still breaking the rules of the game which all equates to cheating
No pro athlete should even be trying to breaks the rules of the game to get an unfair advantage,regardless of whether they are successful or not,thats irrelevant,the the action of breaking the rule is whats wrong,not the result there of

I used to listen to Tennis, not watch. Just because there is a camera at 1080p 24fps, does not mean that spectators become judges. This is not reality TV show with audience voting on whether a call should be made or not. The umpires can be given access to the camera feeds, like they have for hawkeye calls. US NFL does that. Cricket now has a TV umpire. Let Tennis have a TV umpire too.

Veejay wrote:I.E its not wrong if it doesnt result in what Nadal hoped for and only wrong if it results in what he set out to achieve.No,in both instances its wrong

I disagree. Let us no go into morality, otherwise we will end up with questions that are outside the scope of Tennis. For example, the Del Potro challenges at USO 2009 that Jack Garner allowed, were not very good, but the umpire was the authority to make the call.

Veejay wrote:I see you didnt address any of the links I posted Laverfan,did you not read them or if you did,why have you ignored it?
Clearly many believe that while Nadal may be within his rights,bending and abusing rules the way he does is considered cheating

I have read the links, most of which are opinions. There is not much I can address. Bending of such rules is considered cheating by spectators not by umpires. . For example AO 2012 final, Pascal Maria allowed both players extra time to recover, because he, in his judgement, was allowing the match to continue at the pace appropriate for both players.

Veejay wrote:About bumping into the Rosol,all of what youre saying is fine and dandy but its a prime example of the core of Nadals character.This is truly his nature and exactly what I mean by why the sport will be better off without him and what we are referring to when speaking about his poor sportsmanship
You dont see this nature in any of the other players ,the way Nadal bumped into Rosol was really hostile,I have never seen a tennis player behave so badly,You may think is innocent but its exactly the way someone goes about picking a fight,to push someone like that,Rosol even waited for him and he still tried to intimidate him

He also picked up Rosol's racquet that was thrown at the net. . Do you see your own subjectivity?

Veejay wrote:Nadal cant keep doing these things and then afterward just say sorry,sorry isnt enough when its your motive,at some point you have to realise that he is doing it because he knows he can get away with it by just saying sorry afterwards and then everything will be ok till the next match.You have to draw the line somewhere

Yet again, let the umpire be the judges. Let them prove that no player is bigger than the sport and it's rules.

Veejay wrote:You dont see this character in any of the other players,they are never trying every trick they can to upset or disrupt their opponent.The tactics Nadal resorts to is fundamentally wrong in the spirit of sport

What do you mean by every trick? I gave you Del Potro's example earlier. Yesterday, Benne was arguing with Lahyani about a point given to Tsonga. McEnroe and Connors have defaulted matches. If the sport was self-governing, why would one need umpires? . Is breaking a racquet in the spirit of the sport?

For me spirit of the sport is Roger Taylor offering to replay a MP against a 17-yo Borg. There will never be anything close to it as long as I live.

Veejay wrote:He is the only player out there who has articles like the ones I posted written about him,that speaks volumes,if it was all as innocent as youre trying to portray it is,then those articles wouldnt have been written in the first place

I can write articles, as I showed to Raiders and create the equivalents of THASP, per player, without any fear of lawsuits. Libel and Slander has no universal laws. . For example, McEnroe confessed to his mind games when he was playing.

One thing for sure is that we cannot blame the referees. They have instructions from higher. This is why it is up to the players not to abuse of their popularity.

Nadal has been trying to change the game (time/on court coaching), its schedule, its anti-doping system and its ranking system to suit his agenda.

I find this disgraceful as the game gave him so much.

Amri you have to understand that had Nadal not done all the above, I woudl not mind him. Again I do only know him through what I see on the court....so I have no personal reasons not to like him. I am open to any player. I have hardly seen Berankis play and have no opinion on him...the more I will see him behave on court the more I'll make up my mind. It works teh same for all players.

Well in the Shanghai final the average time between points going into the 3rd were as followed:

Murray: 32 seconds

Djokovic: 28 seconds

Nothing was said or done about it. They had almost hit the 3 hour mark after 2 sets. Now by the letter of the law that is a right piss take!

Still nothing in the press, commentators or spectators said a word about it.

Veejay wrote:The victim hasnt done anything wrong,the culprit has,the victim shouldnt even have to learn to deal with such situations because the culprit shouldnt be doing it in the first place

This is now becoming a moral debate. If you fined Nadal enough for time violations, he will change. He knows to serve inside the service box. It is a very rigid rule, that no one in the sport can change.

I can give you examples, where the victim has the right to complain and the responsibility to bring it to notice of authorities.

For example, Tsonga complained to umpires in Miami against Nadal. Soderling did against Nadal at W. Federer, in his interview also makes the umpires responsible. If they can call 'time', they can also call timing violations.

By your own logic, should WADA be disbanded, since the players already know doping is not allowed?

legendkillar wrote:Even Big Mac suggested players should bend the umpires ear when facing Nadal.

Yes rules are rules, but so many in various sports are bent or broken. For me tennis is too lenient. I think the whole violation warning does nothing. For me fine the bugger. Look at his set times and say "look this is taking the piss as it is not just affecting your opponent, but the schedule too."

Fine him. His appearance fee or chunk of prize money. I think the ATP/ITF are soft. The umpires are. The players complain after the match and it seems they never learn from it as they tow the line even if Nadal use the same tricks. The umpires should intervene. We see that stats of average time between points and even Murray and Djokovic were pushing it to new heights in Shanghai and nothing was said or done. Come on umpires. Grow a set.

Yes indeed...bar that umpires have no say in this. A gutsy umpire would not be invited the following year. The ATP is partly responsible but ultimately...we are responsible to accept it. I have always said that and it;s teh truth. You can;t blame either the millions of fans who want to see their champion win and don;t care whether that requires him to take some breathing between games.

This is why we, at large have to understand what is at stake there, and one way to do that woudl be to set a timer on court. People woudl then be aware of what teh rule is and players would be reminded of the time left. This is what Ljubo wanted to implement and this is probably why it cost him teh job at the ATP. Very disappointing!

One thing for sure is that we cannot blame the referees. They have instructions from higher.

I am sorry Tenez, I don't agree with that. Referees are there to enforce rules. If they are not doing their job properly, shouldn't be out on court. Influence by organisers and sponsors should not enter the fray if we are talking about the integrity of the sport.

Nadal has been trying to change the game (time/on court coaching), its schedule, its anti-doping system and its ranking system to suit his agenda.

I will agree on the matter of the protected ranking he wanted considered when he was on the council. The fact he resigned showed that the game had no intention of undergoing major changes. The time and coaching is punished by warnings which for me is not enough.

The anti-doping system I am not sure. I don't follow his comments or those made by his team.