ATP 500: Basel, Valencia

Dimi is good with the ball, but his tennis is reactive, not creative.
So close yet so, so far.

That was a nice, clean, pure tennis match.
Not much drama, but after that joke between Nadal and Coric, this was bliss!
Dimi played well.

Nadal's announced he's finished the season.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/29755595

I watched the end of the first set onwards (when Fed had a few SPs down).

Fed mades lots of easy mistakes in that first set but I must say the ball looks difficult to handle so bouncy the court seems to be. However though he makes quite a few mistakes....he manages to produce many nice winners too. His return game was excellent once again....especially in that 2nd set.

Glad about Goffin.

I'm glad you were able to see it. Was it on the ipad?

NITB, I'm thinking of getting a TennisTV subscription next year- would you recommend it ?

I would, definitely.

I've had it for a few years now and think it's good.
They cover everything except slams and Davis Cup, plus there is a big archive of older matches.
I only wish I could turn commentating off, it has become almost unbearable.

Thankyou SB and NITB for feedback; I think I will get it next year then after the AO. For the AO I'll probably get Eurosport Players which is £2 for the whole month (well it was last year).

NITB wrote:I only wish I could turn commentating off, it has become almost unbearable.

Oh come on, who doesn't love Robbie !
'Someone call 911, Roger Federer has just got out of jail'

Amri. Did you actually type with a straight face on the other forum that Nadal is more talented than Federer?

I just can't even believe as fanatical as you are you believe that.

truffin1 wrote:Amri. Did you actually type with a straight face on the other forum that Nadal is more talented than Federer?

Yes, absolutely.

I posted on here last week a list of the aspects of what I see as talent in tennis, people will have different definitions, but on my aspects I see as Nadal above Federer.

Of course you are free to disagree, and no doubt you do

Also I'm curious as to why you've brought up that quote here, rather than the forum I posted on.
Is it because you know most people here apart form me don't really like Nadal, while v2 has a greater mix, so by posting it on here you can inflame people so they dislike me ?
If so, I assure you, if someone dislikes another poster because they disagree with their views, and they don't like Nadal... they will already probably not like me... so there's not much point of doing that.

FedKing; if I'm on your foes list, I can't respond to your message.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

truffin1 wrote:Amri. Did you actually type with a straight face on the other forum that Nadal is more talented than Federer?

Yes, absolutely.

I posted on here last week a list of the aspects of what I see as talent in tennis, people will have different definitions, but on my aspects I see as Nadal above Federer.

Of course you are free to disagree, and no doubt you do  

That's because you value talent more than anything I guess....Such a shame as your player isn't using any of it (probably cause he hasn't much of it).

It must be tough to be a rafa fan actually. Once you have made the most of the H2H v Federer, there is hardly anything left....just big questions?

Tenez wrote:It must be tough to be a rafa fan actually. Once you have made the most of the H2H v Federer, there is hardly anything left....just big questions?

What's good about it is that he's already won 14 slams and is joint second on the list of Grand Slams won which is far more than I ever imagined.
What's bad is the fact he has next to no chance of winning a slam again.

Ah, I love it.  Saturday morning with some nice tennis matches that will not cut too much into the rest of the day.

Fed still in with a chance to finish the year at #1.  Andy (who is now very likely to make WTF) playing David yet again, and Goffin playing Coric - two guys trying to break through.  All three matches quite interesting.

Of course on YOUR aspects you see Nadal as more talented than Federer.lol. It's just that you are laughably absurdly wrong. It's not even about who is the greater player as plenty of less talented athletes have had greater careers than those with more talent. Based on talent and talent alone, nadal is not even in the same conversation as Federer. No expert, no one who has played tennis on any meaningful level, no one who has been around top level athletes in any sport would say nadal has more talent than federer. It's just wrong.

You sink farther and farther into delusionville with views like this.

No, I did not post it here to inflame people. The other forum has just as many who view you as a joke and freely say so. Having an even more fanatical HE as an ally is hardly a greater mix. I posted it here because when I read it on the other I wasn't in a place to post, then I was on here and since you are here as well-,posted the question to you. Simple as that. Since you post the same posts and articles on both forums yourself, I hardly think I wrong to do so.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Nadal haters ecstatic over Nadal with appendicitis losing in the QF of a ATP500 tournament  

You are so funny amri..

Appendicitis. Of course the injured warrior has been playing and fighting through pain all his life. Only amri can buy that story.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

truffin1 wrote:Amri. Did you actually type with a straight face on the other forum that Nadal is more talented than Federer?

Yes, absolutely.

I posted on here last week a list of the aspects of what I see as talent in tennis, people will have different definitions, but on my aspects I see as Nadal above Federer.

Of course you are free to disagree, and no doubt you do  

Can you please list out those aspects?

Truffin wrote:It's just wrong.

That's your opinion, you are no dictator to decide what opinions other people are allowed or not allowed to have. I disagree with your opinion, if you want to present a strong case against my opinion; you are free to do so.

Truffin wrote:The other forum has just as many who view you as a joke

This comment is personally aimed at me, and it's the sort of rude and nasty comment that is totally unnecessary and out of place in a civil debate. 
Firstly what is your evidence people on v2 view me as a joke ? Apart from Bobgrush and Emanci, who are Fed-fan ultras and really dislike me, who else on v2 holds that opinion ? When I came back to v2 I got quite a few PMs, that far from calling me a joke were actually pretty complementary. 
Also notice that Emanci like you was reduced to ad hominem attacks, but many here do disagree with me but don't resort to that. Do you think NITB, LS; agree with my views ? No, of course not. But they don't always resort to personal insults because they are not nasty like some.

ROTLA wrote:Can you please list out those aspects?

Sure, I identified 5 areas and there is some overlap ofc:
-Ability to play shots
-Reflex
-Shot Selection
-Reproducibility of shots 
-Mental Strength

ROTLA wrote:Only amri can buy that story.

I'm not the only one who thinks he has appendicitis. If you stopped hating him with so much passion and anger, maybe you would see it too.

I can see where you have grounds to believe that Rafa is the goat, but talent wise nu uh!

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

ROTLA wrote:Can you please list out those aspects?

Sure, I identified 5 areas and there is some overlap ofc:
-Ability to play shots
-Reflex
-Shot Selection
-Reproducibility of shots 
-Mental Strength

  Well done..

Kim Jong-Un wrote:I'm not the only one who thinks he has appendicitis. If you stopped hating him with so much passion and anger, maybe you would see it too.

Yep.. there are lot of dodos like you. But I'm certain I won't see it, because I use my brain. Nadal taking a long off and not playing after the Wimbledon loss was so predictable... only Nadal lovers like you couldn't guess it.

ROTLA wrote:Yep.. there are lot of dodos like you. But I'm certain I won't see it, because I use my brain.

See, using personal insults and name labelling instead of debating the issue... like some others before you.
Do you think you're more intelligent than me ?

ROTLA wrote:Nadal taking a long off and not playing after the Wimbledon loss was so predictable... only Nadal lovers like you couldn't guess it.

He didn't last year. If it was so obvious, perhaps you can show some evidence where you guessed it after Wimbledon before the wrist problem ?
And he didn't have appendicitis after Wimbledon, that only emerged in the last few weeks; and anyone who watches him play recently can see he doesn't look very comfortable.

Coric vs Goffin, could be quite interesting.  Goffin should win it, but who knows; Coric has beaten better players this week...

Coric is slightly younger than Nole and Andy when they entered top 100.

Not a fan of this Coric but he seems to have a good dose of brashness, confidence and arrogance to get to the top quickly .

Those people annoy me but they are those who succeed.

I am not a huge fan of his game either, but he does look like he could be good.

Goffin is going to be tough to beat tomorrow. He can be one of the very few player taking time away from fed.

Fed will hav eto play better than v Dimi....if he gets there of course.

Goffin looked pretty good today.  Had it not been for some nerves (or lack of focus?) he could have won more easily.

agreed. Can he cope with pace himself? that's the question. A few players are good injecting pace but less are good handling it in turn (Berdych for instance can inject pace but is poor at handling it).

I didn't get to see any tennis today, but glad Goffin won, though I didn't expect Coric to take a set off him.
I didn't see much of him yesterday, or at least enough to make any judgement, he just looked like knew what he was doing (except when he failed to serve the set and bagel Nadal).
I saw a little bit of Zverev as well, so interesting to see how the newest new generation is playing.
Strangely, I can see both win slams before Dimi and esp Raonic.
Lots of belief and skill to keep the ball in play.
I think we'll have to wait for another flairful talent a bit longer than we'd like to.

Just saw Murray break poor Ferru with some shameless, obnoxious pushing.
That type of tennis should be banned!

I can't believe I'm sayin' it, but...

VAMOS DAVEEEED!!!  

As much as I want talented Ferrer to win, I think Murray is a much better addition to WTF than Ferrer.

I think they'll both qualify, anyway.

Here is live ATP race list:

1		Novak Djokovic	SRB	9020	-	Paris R32	-	9100	10010
2		Roger Federer	SUI	8210	-	Basel SF	-	8320	8520
3		Rafael Nadal	ESP	6835	-	-	Lost in Basel QF	-	-
4		Stan Wawrinka	SUI	4815	-	Paris R32	Lost in Basel R32	4895	5805
		World Tour Finals Qualification Cut (Nadal out - 9th qualifies)		4470
5		Kei Nishikori	JPN	4275	-	Paris R32	-	4355	5265
6		Marin Cilic	CRO	4150	-	-	-	-	-
7		Tomas Berdych	CZE	4115	-	Paris R32	Lost in Valencia R32	4195	5105
8		Andy Murray	GBR	4105	-	Valencia F	-	4295	4295
9		David Ferrer	ESP	3875	-	Paris R32	Lost in Valencia SF	3955	4865
10		Milos Raonic	CAN	3850	-	Paris R32	Lost in Basel QF	3930	4840
11		Grigor Dimitrov	BUL	3565	-	Paris R32	Lost in Basel QF	3645	4555

So, it will have to be decided in Paris.
Murray will have to get past Nole in the QF.

That was actually perfect timing from Murray and Ferrer, Fed-Ivo just started.
It's nice to get this feeling of good old times.
The way tennis is going....

Tenez wrote:Goffin is going to be tough to beat tomorrow. [b] He can be one of the very few player taking time away from fed. [/i] Fed will hav eto play better than v Dimi....if he gets there of course.

I really doubt he can take time away from Fed. I think only Nishi can atm. But it will be a nice match.

It appears like last night's match took its tool on Fed.
He looks rather heavy.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

Truffin wrote:It's just wrong.

That's your opinion, you are no dictator to decide what opinions other people are allowed or not allowed to have. I disagree with your opinion, if you want to present a strong case against my opinion; you are free to do so.

Truffin wrote:The other forum has just as many who view you as a joke

This comment is personally aimed at me, and it's the sort of rude and nasty comment that is totally unnecessary and out of place in a civil debate. 
Firstly what is your evidence people on v2 view me as a joke ? Apart from Bobgrush and Emanci, who are Fed-fan ultras and really dislike me, who else on v2 holds that opinion ? When I came back to v2 I got quite a few PMs, that far from calling me a joke were actually pretty complementary. 
Also notice that Emanci like you was reduced to ad hominem attacks, but many here do disagree with me but don't resort to that. Do you think NITB, LS; agree with my views ? No, of course not. But they don't always resort to personal insults because they are not nasty like some.

I'm no dictator but if 100 people can clearly see the sky is blue and one person who is fanatical about the color orange walks outside and says the sky is orange-  it's pretty clear they are wrong.

Even McEnroe whose word Nadal fanatics seem to hang their hats on now since he declared Nadal had a slight edge in the Goat debate--  about Federer during the US Open  "Mcenroe admitted, "He's the most gifted player that I've ever seen in my life.”


You can argue many things about both Federer and Nadal as tennis players- but no one save Nadal ultra fans would label him as more talented.  the fact you can't see that tells me you are either oblivious to what talent is at the highest athletic level, or fanatical towards Nadal and can't see beyond that.

Nadal does not have better reflex than Federer. Certainly not hands. the style of serve and volley and net play that Fed can execute compared to Nadal would tell even a novice that.  Fed's half volleys from the base line could tell anyone that.   Federer is better at  more difficult and intricate movement if you can understand that.  Federer has many more shots than Nadal has.   Federer's one hander and the versatility of it requires vastly more natural talent than Nadals forehand or backhand.  Federer can execute style a,b,c, and d during a match.  Even Nadal fans have said once Nadal gets to plan b he is in real trouble.  Federer floats like an Ali (ultra talent) while Nadal grinds like a Frazier (success who exceeded his natural talent) Nadal is a programmed beast with an unusual game that is enhanced in certain conditions. He has a strong will and fight.  That's what makes Nadal great.  In terms of talent though-  there are multiple players that are more talented than he, and Federer tops that list by a wide margin.


In terms of you being a joke-  before you rejoined the other forum-  your constant changing of your alias was a constant joke there and many times I saw a whole cross section of posters reminisce about some bizarre theory you had in the past.  Sure, one of the people would bring it up was someone like bogrush who doesn't like you, but they would all laugh and join in.. sorry- your viewed as a bit of a troll-   comes on to shower the forum with nadal fanboy love, disappears after it blows up in your face, then reappears down the road with a new name.

In terms of my attacking you--- well- you are right- I shouldn't resort to those things. At the same time, you have no problem calling people liars and all types of name- often without the other poster having started anything with you and was just stating their rememberance or belief..  You are a bit of a hypocrite in that area.  Two wrongs don't make a right though, so I'll try and cool it.

I have enjoyed Federer's serving in Basel. Especially his second serve.

Quite an exciting tie-break!
One of the rare times servefest actually looks good.

Tight-rope walking stuff, but I love it

That BH pass must have felt sooooooo good!

Truffin wrote:I'm no dictator but if 100 people can clearly see the sky is blue

No but a debate like this on tennis is subjective, unlike the colour of the sky which is objective. 

Truffin wrote:In terms of talent though-  there are multiple players that are more talented than he, and Federer tops that list by a wide margin.

That is your opinion... another issue with this debate is people have different definitions of talent in tennis specifically- see my list to ROTLA.

Truffin wrote:I saw a whole cross section of posters reminisce about some bizarre theory you had in the past. 

Oh come on... I know the incident you're talking about as I saw you report it on this forum- it was Lags talking about the PM I sent him saying Nadal was 3rd favourite for the French Open even though he was already in the final; it was clearly a joke as he can't even be 3rd favourite if he's in the final... I was poking fun at myself (specifically one I made about Nadal's chances in general at the FO), I didn't actually mean that literally. 

Truffin wrote:but they would all laugh and join in

Rather than making unprovable  assumptions; perhaps show some evidence and give me a list of posters on v2 who have such a low opinion of me ? I am aware when posters really don't like me, and on v2 I can think of around 4 people who have a low opinion who are currently posting... and they are all big Federer fans who dislike Nadal. 

Trufffin wrote:In terms of my attacking you--- well- you are right- I shouldn't resort to those things.

Thank-you

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

Truffin wrote:I'm no dictator but if 100 people can clearly see the sky is blue

No but a debate like this on tennis is subjective, unlike the colour of the sky which is objective. 

Truffin wrote:In terms of talent though-  there are multiple players that are more talented than he, and Federer tops that list by a wide margin.

That is your opinion... another issue with this debate is people have different definitions of talent in tennis specifically- see my list to ROTLA.

Truffin wrote:I saw a whole cross section of posters reminisce about some bizarre theory you had in the past. 

Oh come on... I know the incident you're talking about as I saw you report it on this forum- it was Lags talking about the PM I sent him saying Nadal was 3rd favourite for the French Open even though he was already in the final; it was clearly a joke as he can't even be 3rd favourite if he's in the final... I was poking fun at myself (specifically one I made about Nadal's chances in general at the FO), I didn't actually mean that literally. 

Truffin wrote:but they would all laugh and join in

Rather than making unprovable  assumptions; perhaps show some evidence and give me a list of posters on v2 who have such a low opinion of me ? I am aware when posters really don't like me, and on v2 I can think of around 4 people who have a low opinion who are currently posting... and they are all big Federer fans who dislike Nadal. 

Trufffin wrote:In terms of my attacking you--- well- you are right- I shouldn't resort to those things.

Thank-you

You are welcome.

Is it just me, or has Ivo beefed up a bit?
I don't remember him having any muscles in the past.

ouahh...3 sets to get rid of Karlo?!?! And pretty close as Karlo coudl have won in 2. Can't believe Fed got broken by Karlo.

Hope he recovers on time tomorrow. I am not sure why federer did not start to play on Monday and space up his matches.

Tomorrow looks harder now on today's karlo result!

Why do you continue to waste time debating with someone who won't ever debate?  The fact this person thinks a guy who sits behind the baseline by 100m and has a WOEFUL fast court record is the most talented player of all time, should tell you everything you need to know.  It's pointless.  You'd have the same result debating why Oswald shot Kennedy or why the moon landings weren't fake, to conspiracy nuts.

The stats that ultimately matter are these... and Amri can kick, moan, scream... they won't change.

Australia 4-1
Wimbledon 7-2
US Open 5-2
ATP Tour Finals 6-0

And Nadal beaten in his prime, three years in a row at Wimbledon, to Rank 100s.  The debate is over.  Amri has a personal crusade to prove Nadal is the greatest, and it's dead in the water.  Her opinion doesn't matter because almost all stats and professionals disagree with her. 

Lol why does everyone think Amri is a girl when he's said repeatedly he isn't.

Are you rather feminine Amri?