Indian Wells Thread

[N2D2L]

Indian Wells Masters 1000 2014:

Defending Champion: Nadal
2012 Champion: Federer
2011 Champion: Djokovic

Thoughts on the event:
Well it seems like Nadal's second biggest fan Larry has decided he wants to see his hero play some tough matches this year, and Rafito Nadal does have hard draw. Wawrinka Fed could be an interesting QF if it materialises, while Nadal could face Murray for a first time in a long time.

My Pick: I think Djokovic is favourite, but he has to up his game from Dubai tbh.

[N2D2L]

Murray beat Rosol in 3 sets, Federer now up against PHM.

[truffin1]

Well, don't worry- Ellison made up for giving Nadal a avg to most players draw by creating the slowest high bouncing hard court I've ever seen.  Even you have to admit- this court is glacier slow...

[N2D2L]

Yes it's slower than the clay surfaces of South America from what I've seen so far.

[N2D2L]

This surface is too slow for Nadal, he's not getting the zip he needs.

[N2D2L]

Not a sharp set from Nadal, really poor.

[truffin1]

This surface is too slow for Nadal, he's not getting the zip he needs.

lol-- the conditions are what saved him...   I've never seen a tournament owner like Ellison so openly rooting for a player.. How could anyone see that and not understand how this court was purposely slowed to favor Nadal. Even a delusional Nadal fan has to understand that.. 

I actually think Stepanek was the best chance of upsetting Nadal before the final.. Murray is just not in form.

[Tenez]

Larry is an idiot. A rich idiot but an idiot.

Really weird from Nadal to struggle v a 35 yo....on a dead slow court. and he doesn;t have Federer's physical problem.

[N2D2L]

I like Larry.

Truffin, I think Nadals optimum conditions is medium/medium slow perhaps; if it is this slow he struggles to get zip and open up the court.

[Daniel]

I think Nadals optimum conditions is medium/medium slow perhaps

And that's why he's the goat, everyone....

[N2D2L]

?
Why would that line have anything to do with the GOAT debate.

Slow courts are as valid as faster ones, people should stop with this superiority complex, it's not as if god said 'let there be fast courts' on the 5th day.

[N2D2L]

Anyway in other news, Nadal hit 8 double faults against Stepanek, and has confirmed his back is seriously hindering his serve.

[summerblues]

I think it does have to do with the goat debate to the extent it shows such debates are ultimately pointless.

Some people will feel it no longer is tennis if conditions stray too far from where they have been traditionally. Others will feel all conditions are equally valid. Neither view is "right" or "wrong", it is a matter of personal taste. But whatever view one selects will have significant impact on how players end up being ranked.

If you take the view that tennis greatness has to come from traditional tennis skills then Federer will rank ahead of Rafa, but if you take the view that the conditions that matter are whatever conditions prevail at the time the player is playing, then Rafa may yet end up on top. ....and if you take the view that clay court tennis is the only real tennis, then Rafa will be ahead of Roger.

[summerblues]

"confirmed" or "claimed"?

[N2D2L]

"confirmed" or "claimed"?

Well it's what he said, I don't know which one that applies to.

[summerblues]

Rafa was very poor last night. Stepanek did well to try to take it to him but if Rafa had played anywhere his usual level, it would have never been close.

[summerblues]

I was just being playful. I like it how media's choice of these verbs always reflects their bias. You may have two sides arguing against each other, and the verbs that the media will attribute to one side will be say:

"claimed", "insisted"

while from the other side they may be:

"confirmed", "explained", "stated", or even "admitted" (as in "A admitted they had no choice but to bomb B").

[truffin1]

I like Larry.

Truffin, I think Nadals optimum conditions is medium/medium slow perhaps; if it is this slow he struggles to get zip and open up the court.

As usual you take a Nadal only view and can't see the big picture... Even if you are correct and Nadal's game wasn't optimized by the conditions, how do you think Stepanek's game was affected?  The guy who had to try and hit ultra aggressive through the court, rely on easy points on serve, come to the net, serve and volley in order to beat Nadal.  Who's game would be far more affected by the slow court? Stepanek of course.    Nadal loves slow conditions, loves the ball biting and exploding off the court. These conditions were tailor made for him- he just played poorly last night, no Toni to give him signals to move in and cut off the outwide serve, bad timing.    On a faster court with the form both were in, Stepanek would have beaten him.  The conditions saved Nadal because the conditions hurt his opponent far worse than him.

I see your point in other posts about slow courts are just as valid as fast-fair enough- but what most knowlegable tennis fans want is variety..  the three months of clay, various slow courts are enough-  grass should be fast, most hard courts should be medium to fast-  rewarding skill and talent.   What we have now is slow to ultra slow with a medium court thrown in once every few months.   On top of that- to see a friend and fan of Nadal buy a tournament and purposely change the court to suit Nadals style verges on collusion.  It's an outrage and even you can't deny that is what happened..   Ellison was openly rooting AGAINST Nadals opponenet last night- what owner does that?  It's a travesty- to see one of the biggest tournaments changed to help one player because the owner is a fan...   

Going forward- every Nadal opponent goes into the match knowing that the strategy that can and would beat Nadal is virtually impossible on this court--- when the nature of the court and the intent of this surface should be that that strategy would work. To have the players robbed of that because an owner purposely eliminated that from them- in a Masters 1000- is outrageous.

[N2D2L]

As usual you take a Nadal only view and can't see the big picture...

The court is not perfect for Nadal, but it suited him better than Stepanek. When did I say anything to the contrary?

no Toni to give him signals to move in and cut off the outwide serve,

Do you genuinely believe this is an actual reason as to why Nadal played poorly? Nadal has won many tournaments when Toni isn't there, and that includes his masterclass display against Djokovic in Montreal 2013 (the performance I rate as the best of his career on HC).

I see your point in other posts about slow courts are just as valid as fast-fair enough- but what most knowlegable tennis fans want is variety..

Yes, not only do I agree with you but I have written an article before agreeing with your point.
Let's not make the logical fallacy though and then insist that this means somehow slow courts or fast courts are more/less valid, and I am glad you have said so yourself here that's it's not the case.

Ellison was openly rooting AGAINST Nadals opponenet last night- what owner does that? It's a travesty- to see one of the biggest tournaments changed to help one player because the owner is a fan...

What do you think should be done about it? Free market in a capitalist system, no?

[truffin1]

No- I was just teasing you with the Toni remark. If Toni had been there I do know he would have made the adjustement for Nadal which would have changed the outcome- but Toni not being there was not why Nadal played poorly. 

In all seriousness though- you mention Nadal playing great when Toni isn't there- obviously true-- the problem with the coaching is that when Nadal is not playing great or his opponent is playing better-  Nadal has shown at times an inability to make a proper adjustment- especially on return of serve...  AS we saw against Berdych at the AO a few years ago- Toni is the one who tells Nadal to make the change and it changed the match. He certainly would have last night as well and life would have been easier for Nadal.  Same thing last year when the linesperson who spoke Spanish busted Toni for telling Nadal where to stand on ROS... and Nadal tried to lie not knowing the linesperson actually understood their dialect. 
That's the travesty of the coaching- it takes a weakness of Nadal as a tennis player and helps him overcome it illegaly- while other players are left out there to figure it out for themselves.


Of course, Ellison has the right to root for whoever he wants. Frankly- he does have the right to change the court as he owns it..... but even you can't dispute he changed the court to better suit Nadal and from a sporting standpoint- that is wrong.  This isn't a home 250 level tournament where the hometown guy gets the red carpet treatment and a tournament where players don't have to show up to. this is a MAsters 1000- a tournament that the organizers are trying to present as a mini Major, that counts for a tremendous amount of points-- and the owner is rigging the conditions so that his favorite player is benefited and others players are hampered. That is wrong from a sport standpoint...  maybe not from a free market standpoint- but it's not what fans of tennis should see or have thrust upon them.  Of course as a fan of Nadal you appreciate the help- but it's not right, and I don't know of another player who has been afforded that help- esp in a Masters.

If Anne Wintour (obsessed with Federer editor of Vogue) bought a Masters 1000 that was slow and the next year Nadal showed up and the court was lightening fast with Extremely low bounce--  you and Nadal fans would be saying the same thing as I did..   It's not the right thing to do--  no player including Federer should have the conditions of a big tournament changed to enhance his game and even more so- hurt the game of other players-- just because the owner is a fan.

[N2D2L]

No- I was just teasing you with the Toni remark.

Ok lol

Nadal has shown at times an inability to make a proper adjustment- especially on return of serve...

All I can say is this: it's very important to not get stuck in the fallacy where a few rare events get painted as what the trend is.
I can count very few matches where Nadal has had any problem with standing to return serve, forget needing help from Toni. There was one point against Tomas, that's all I can remember from his whole career.

Same thing last year when the linesperson who spoke Spanish busted Toni for telling Nadal where to stand on ROS...

Are you sure about that truffin?
I may be mistaken, as I don't have the tap from the match, but from what I quite accurately seem to recall is that Toni told Nadal something which roughly translates to 'go, get him' in Catalan, not Spanish. Again I can't remember the exact words as I don't have the clip, but I can't remember anything to do with standing on the baseline.

Frankly- he does have the right to change the court as he owns it.....
{abridge}
That is wrong from a sport standpoint... maybe not from a free market standpoint- but it's not what fans of tennis should see or have thrust upon them. Of course as a fan of Nadal you appreciate the help- but it's not right,

Yes, you make some fair points... but I think it raises the question though- to what extent should tennis be controlled by the free market?

[Tenez]

With Berdych out early it means federer is in good position to finish above him next week, Just needs to reach 1/4F. So 2 up as sadly delpo will drop further even. Having said that Federer's form in that 2 set v PHM is very worrying.

[truffin1]

On the coaching at Indian Wells- my recollection is the linesperson is called over by the Umpire after Nadal tries to use the excuse that they were speaking in Spanish (which is what Nadal first says) and the linesperson can't understand. The umpire says the linesperson can and the linesperson comes over and says something to the effect-  the coach told him to stand to the left, stand there, hit to his back hand.  Nadal looks shocked, utterly embarrassed and then says they were speaking in Catalan? (msp?)  which the linesperson says he understands that as well, and Nadal sulks off.

One thing I may be mistaken is that it could have been on Nadals serve.. not ROS- but coaching either way.

I looked around and lots of forums talking about it but mostly just screaming how Nadal looked like a fool and is a cheat and doesn't give detail, but several do mention the linesperson said he was being told to hit to backhand (which is specific coaching) and not encouragement as you like to pretend. Several had links to video but when I click on the videos have been removed for copyright infringement.

One post says the linesperson says Toni said "reves" and then the poster says :
In Spanish, backhand is revés and google translate says that revés in Spanish is revés in Catalan.

This blog which seems to be proNadal or at least nonbiased and the guy gets mad that nadal got the coaching violation and says it's silly for Toni to tell him to hit to backhand since Nadal was doing it all night (as if that matters)  but this blogger does say it was about hitting to the backhand.
http://www.changeovertennis.com/liveanalysis-rafael-nadal-vs-ernests-gulbis-in-the-indian-wells-fourth-round/

Another recap which is how I remember as well, but the video link has been disabled.

Originally Posted by Homeboy Hotel
During the 3rd set of the Gulbis match, Nadal goes and stands near his box and gets some standard illegal coaching in spanish, however, the multi-lingual lines man catches on to what his box were saying and then reports that to the umpire.

Nadal thought he could catch the linesman bluff, attempting to challenge him - asking to repeat what he thought he overhead, but the reaction from Nadal when the linesman repeats exactly what he was told by his box was priceless.

And I mean, come on, it wasn't worth it. 1-1 in the third set and toni says "play to Gulbis backhand"

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCadthJ8iqY#t=59m59s


Not once does anyone say that what he said translated to "go get him" I am positive after looking at all these different posts you are wrong about that.. Really- you have to stop pretending that Toni just gives words of encouragement.  Toni ADMITS he coaches and gives direction, Nadal admits it, NAdal has been fined, caught multiple times..

http://www.ubitennis.com/sport/tennis/2010/09/16/385737-nadal_admit_cheating_during_open_final.shtml


http://larrybrownsports.com/tennis/rafael-nadal-uncle-toni-cheats-coaching-during-matches/196908
“Hablo con Rafel durante los partidos. Ya sé que no está muy permitido pero considero que a mi edad, tampoco tengo que esconderme,” Toni Nadal told Spanish journalist David Nadal recently.
The translation for that comment is: I talk to Rafa during matches. I know that it’s not allowed, but I think that at my age I have nothing to hide.
Toni is Rafa’s longtime coach and introduced the star to the game when his nephew was very young. He is a regular in the player’s box and there have long been complaints about him coaching his nephew during matches. At Wimbledon in 2010, Toni received a warning from the chair umpire for coaching Rafa. Roger Federer infamously complained during a match at Rome in 2006 about Toni coaching Rafa.
“He was coaching a little bit too much again today. I caught him in the act. I told him many times already, through the entire match in Monaco, but it seems like they don’t keep a close enough eye on him,” Federer said at the time.
Toni responded by saying the rule was the problem, not him.
“I think all the sports make an evolution,” he said. “It’s not natural that you pay a coach and this coach travels to Australia and to New York to watch his player and he can’t say nothing.”
Will tennis adjust the rules because they know coaches are breaking them? I doubt it. Maybe if Uncle Toni cares about being more discreet — which it seems like he doesn’t — then he could try this approach.

[N2D2L]

I am trying to find the clip but I can't unfortunately, will keep trying.

I am always a bit sceptical I'm believing things on forums; but in this instance I will give the BoD.

As I said in my earlier post, it's important not to get confused between what is rare, and what is a trend.
Federer has sworn before on court which is unacceptable, but it is rare rather than a tend.

Same with this, I don't think you can even show instances and even provide evidence for 2% of Nadal matches. It is true in general Toni is a loudmouth, and Nadal does say in his autobiography that Toni is overbearing... But he is his uncle so the relationship is complex.
However having watched a lot of Nadal matches, and being close to Toni a few times before, I can vouch that I never saw anything from Toni that I myself wasn't saying 'Vamos' etc.

[truffin1]

With  Berdych out early it means federer is in good position to finish above him next week, Just needs to reach 1/4F. So 2 up as sadly delpo will drop further even. Having said that Federer's form in that 2 set v PHM is very worrying.

Fed is hinting pretty strongly of not playing Miami to be ready for David Cup and given Mirka's situation-- all understandable, but potentially negating his gain in points on the players ahead of him.  If he had a good run in IW and Miami he could really set himself up for top 4 by Wimby which is very important---   I hope he plays Miami- but wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't.

[Tenez]

I also think it is unlikely Federer plays Miami...unless he loses today or next round...maybe.

But the thing is that Federer has zero points to defend there while the guys in front have lots. Murray (the title) and Ferrer (the final) will most likely struggle to retain their points. Berdych is actually the one who could overtake Fed again.

So chances for Federer to be 4th after Miami are still quite high....I think.

[noleisthebest]

On the coaching at Indian Wells- my recollection is the linesperson is called over by the Umpire after Nadal tries to use the excuse that they were speaking in Spanish (which is what Nadal first says) and the linesperson can't understand. The umpire says the linesperson can and the linesperson comes over and says something to the effect-  the coach told him to stand to the left, stand there, hit to his back hand.  Nadal looks shocked, utterly embarrassed and then says they were speaking in Catalan? (msp?)  which the linesperson says he understands that as well, and Nadal sulks off.

I was just rewatching that interview clip of Federer  where he talks about his time on tour and new generations of players; how he enjoys his life in a different way now etc...
What struck me was how nicely he has matured, how well he understands his position and how responsible he has been all these years.

And then you compare and contrast him to Nadal whose selfishness seems to know no end, what a way to carry on....

[Tenez]

Toni responded by saying the rule was the problem, not him.
“I think all the sports make an evolution,” he said. “It’s not natural that you pay a coach and this coach travels to Australia and to New York to watch his player and he can’t say nothing.”
--------------------------
Those kind of comments from Toni drive me mad. he has said things like that a few times. Only people who care about tennis would notice such aberrations!...oh and Nadal's fans of course but they still find excuses.
 
This to me is no different than saying sport should evolve and accept doping, which is very clearly what Toni thinks too. Those mindsets have no respect for rules and it's all about money. There is no player in the history of the game who has distorted all possible rules to his advantage. It might even be across sports too as I do not know any other sports where rules could be bent as much.
 
The equivalent would be to pick up a race distance which fits best an athelete..such as suddenly creating the 115m track race to benefit one athlete who could not win the 100m nor the 200m.

In fact there is a bit of history already with Pancho gonazales when the tennis association changed the rules against him cause he was winning too easily. can't remember what it was then (probably only one serve). So it is interesting to see how the "establishment" can destroy or make a player's career.

[noleisthebest]

Unfortunately, too many people are indifferent, after all this is the era of The Show "business".

Fedal has  propelled tennis popularity to great heights, at the heart of it having such polar opposites.
One of the first things I said when I started my "noleisthebest" existence on BBC 606  was that Federer was the best thing that happened to tennis, and Nadal was the death of tennis.

As time went on every time I remembered it, tennis looked a little worse off, peaking with Nadal's USO 2010 win, and all that surrounded it.

In a perverse way, Nadal's losses brought more joy than Nole's wins. I loved 2011, the year of the slaying the beast...2012 AO win was sweet.

Then 7 months of Nadal-free bliss followed by 2013, annus horribilis.

Despite all the damage Nadal&Team have done, I still believe tennis will recover when he's gone.
2014 has had a great start, and may it looooooooooong continue.

[noleisthebest]

Some good matches today, Dolgopolov - Nadal should be interesting,  provided Dolgo's doesn't have any form fluctuations

The one I really look forward to is tomorrow, Dimitrov - Gulbis, both playing well, Earnie surely relishing a chance for a rematch after the last week's loss in Acapulco.

Btw, what is going on with Tsonga, is he injured?

[N2D2L]

In a perverse way, Nadal's losses brought more joy than Nole's wins.

Yes, that's the perverse way you and Nadal haters think, isn't it?

[Daniel]

In a perverse way, Nadal's losses brought more joy than Nole's wins.

Yes, that's the perverse way you and Nadal haters think, isn't it?

It's natural to want to see a cheat lose. It's not natural to support one.

[N2D2L]

In a perverse way, Nadal's losses brought more joy than Nole's wins.

Yes, that's the perverse way you and Nadal haters think, isn't it?

It's natural to want to see a cheat lose.  It's not natural to support one.

If we are going to play that game, do you want me to bring up my clips of Federer pointing to the wrong mark?
And if breaking the rules is cheating, then surely all football players who have got yellow cards as they have broken the rules are cheats?

This is what haters do, we see it with the BNP against black people, constantly bring up rare occurrences, and as part of their agenda try and make it seem like a common trend when it simply isn't.

[Tenez]

In a perverse way, Nadal's losses brought more joy than Nole's wins.

Yes, that's the perverse way you and Nadal haters think, isn't it?

It's natural to want to see a cheat lose.  It's not natural to support one.

If we are going to play that game, do you want me to bring up my clips of Federer pointing to the wrong mark?
And if breaking the rules is cheating, then surely all football players who have got yellow cards as they have broken the rules are cheats?

Yes and people who cheat then tend to be disliked. I don't think football fans like to see their hero diving. We kind of understand it may happen once or twice in a full moon because of pressure or because many other cheats more systematically tempting the less inclined to cheat back.

This is what haters do, we see it with the BNP against black people, constantly bring up rare occurrences, and as part of their agenda try and make it seem like a common trend when it simply isn't.

Not sure what the BNP has got to do with that conversation but let's take the logic further...do you seriously think Nadal cheats on rare occurences?

[N2D2L]

Yes and people who cheat then tend to be disliked. I don't think football fans like to see their hero diving.

If you saw what I said carefully, I was saying breaking rules in general; so that would includes fouls which are not only against the rules but also tend to be more violent. Do you not support any player who has fouled?

Not sure what the BNP has got to do with that conversation but let's take the logic further...do you seriously think Nadal cheats on rare occurences?

Intentionally yes, it is rare. He breaks the time rule often (as to reasons I've explained at length), but either way not supporting someone because of that is ludicrous.
And I'm not saying this is literally to do with the BNP, but their logic is similar to what we hear on here, repeat rare occurrences ad infinitum and try to create an impression that is indeed false.

[noleisthebest]

Just started watching Fed-Tursunov, what happened on the 1set?
looks like it was close....

[Tenez]

not sure...connecting now...

[noleisthebest]

Oh, he just got broken...looks sluggish and in no mood to play. It's one of those matches he'll have to grind...
But breaks back to love straight away!
This has got to be the most high-bouncing court in the world.

[noleisthebest]

At least the rallies are short...and Tursunov is playing well. You can see the difference in the tennis this older generation of players is playing, no scrambling at all.

[Tenez]

very high bouncing indeed.

[Tenez]

I am not sure how fed served in that 1st set but he seems ok now serve wise.

[Tenez]

This drop shot with a BH slice from fed in that 11th game is typical of his new larger frame. he will get comfortable with shots he would not have dared with his 90in racquet...even if he lost that point.

[noleisthebest]

What I don't like is the fact the court is slowing him down. Good job he's got this bigger racquet now!

[noleisthebest]

This drop shot with a BH slice from fed in that 11th game is typical of his new larger frame. he will get comfortable with shots he would not have dared with his 90in racquet...even if he lost that point.

Yes!
And did you see that BH body return from Fed in Tursunov's previous service game?

[Tenez]

Well Tursu played well in that second set. The depth and pace of his shots are amongst the best. I think his mind is still his main problem but a beautiful player.

[Tenez]

This drop shot with a BH slice from fed in that 11th game is typical of his new larger frame. he will get comfortable with shots he would not have dared with his 90in racquet...even if he lost that point.

Yes!
And did you see that BH body return from Fed in Tursunov's previous service game?

Yes the returns are getting pacier too.

[noleisthebest]

It was a nice little match...no grunting, no towelling, just tennis!

[Tenez]

It must be something Russian to be sending those pacy deep balls cause the other player who does that, though using a different style is Davydenko....and Medvedev and Kafel were also kings of pacy and deep rallies.

[Daniel]

It's natural to want to see a cheat lose. It's not natural to support one.

[noleisthebest]

Yes, grinding doesn't seem to be in their blood, life's too short for that.
Russians still take pride in sport that used to be huge during communism.

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