Re: Whither Djoko?

by Jahu Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:12 am

La Coste crying it self to death, ROI = never!!!

by summerblues Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:56 am

bogbrush wrote:At this rate we’ll have to wait until he’s unseeded to see him play Federer.

Haha, very true. Luckily, at this rate he will be unseeded by the time Fed is playing his next tournament.

Still, I do not quite understand why you guys want to see more Fed-Rafa, Fed-Nole matches. I want to watch Fed-Shapo, Fed-Chung etc. over the next few years.

by bogbrush Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:08 am

Generally, yeah, though right now a few Fed-Djoko would be fun to get the h2h the right way round. The matches wouldn’t take too long either.

by Emancipator Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:56 am

Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:Agree on that.
I don't believe in games being obsolete. Sure Fed's racquet did help, but it only helped him to execute his usual game a bit better. Before Wawrinka won 3 slams the SHBH was considered to be dead. S&V was dead, and yet guys like M zverev and Muller went deep in the second week of a slam. NAdal and his game, how often was he written off?
I am not saying a type of game becomes obsolete though it can also happen (Wilander, Nystrom, Sundstrom moonballing v Mecir, SVing when new strings arrive), I am saying a player's game can become obsolete. Retrieving game by Nadal and Djoko making Hewitt outdated suddenly. Federer's is classy, so by definition is meant to resist the effect of time...but all those who had a similar game, Blake, Gasquet, Haas, got all a short successful career when the new generation arrived. Federer managed to survive it thanks to his amazing eye/hand coord. If I remember correctly, though my memory is not as good as yours, you also said that of Federer's game was obsolete (in 2014?) and that Stan was adapting better to the new game..until we saw what fed coudl really do with that new racquet. But Fed's game really looked outdated with his old racquet.

It's all about execution. If a certain game is executed to perfection, it's going to be succesfull, no matter what type of game it is. As for Nole: we can't say his game is obsolete, because for now he's not close to his former self.
I am not saying Nole's game is obsolete because he is not as good as then...I am saying he is obsolete cause I have seen players who will become better than him very soon.

Spectacularly failed with this example. The only similarity between Federer's game and Blake's is that they both play with a SHBH. Blake is 'hit as hard as you can - doesn't matter where the ball goes' - blunt trauma - he is the antithesis of Federer's guile.

by Emancipator Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:04 pm

gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:In fact to me Nishi had a better game than Djoko already when Djoko was at his best. Problem was NIshi's mind and injury but the best of Nishi was better than the best of Djoko. But it doesn;t mean he won't win anything from then on....but simply much less.

Nishi is a good example of someone with a game which is difficult to execute. We know that if players like Nishi, Cilic or Safin execute well, they become unplayable. They can only win that way. But like a poker player who goes for 'all in' all the time: he wins big, but loses more often.

It's like in gymnastics: the final score is determined by the combination of the difficulty score and the execution score. That means that a slightly inferior gymnast will have to push the difficulty level in order to win. It's like going for broke. Like Nishi has to. Does that make him the better player? Some days: yes, but overall?

Nole did not have to push "the difficulty", because he executioned his game perfectly. And if he does again, it remains to be seen the Nextgen can stand up to it.

LMFAO - show me one example where Nishi has been 'unplayable' against the trio.

He is a good striker of the ball (but not in Nalbandian's league) and moves well. End quote. Most of the time he plays with big margins off both wings and grinds - just like the vast majority of the tour. Davydenko was a similar player but better and took the ball earlier.

by Emancipator Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:14 pm

summerblues wrote:
bogbrush wrote:At this rate we’ll have to wait until he’s unseeded to see him play Federer.
Haha, very true. Luckily, at this rate he will be unseeded by the time Fed is playing his next tournament.

Still, I do not quite understand why you guys want to see more Fed-Rafa, Fed-Nole matches. I want to watch Fed-Shapo, Fed-Chung etc. over the next few years.

Thoroughly enjoying the demise of Screech. Just a shame that Socal is not around to add to the entertainment.

In any case I have nothing against Screech who comes across to me as a playful individual. However, I have to say the absence of the rabid, frothing, chip on shoulder, aggressive, but barely-able-to-construct-a- coherent-sentence-in-English surly Serbian contingent from the fora is a welcome bonus (prime example being innit; NITB exempted of course).

Here's to further decline of the Srdan/Dijana clan.

ghost

Emancipator

by Emancipator Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:22 pm

summerblues wrote:
bogbrush wrote:At this rate we’ll have to wait until he’s unseeded to see him play Federer.
Haha, very true. Luckily, at this rate he will be unseeded by the time Fed is playing his next tournament.

Still, I do not quite understand why you guys want to see more Fed-Rafa, Fed-Nole matches. I want to watch Fed-Shapo, Fed-Chung etc. over the next few years.

Really? For what? - do you enjoy watching lambs get slaughtered?

Chung is rubbish - it is an insult to Djokovic to compare the two. The media began these comparisons because Chung stated that Screech was his idol. Federer was right in pointing out that only one aspect of their games is similar. Of course Djokovic does/did everything better. Chung is a weaponless grinder. The epitomy of today's stale drudging tour.

A player like Chung cannot stretch Federer if the latter is playing well. So it's basically target practice.

by Tenez Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:28 pm

Emancipator wrote:
Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:Agree on that.
I don't believe in games being obsolete. Sure Fed's racquet did help, but it only helped him to execute his usual game a bit better. Before Wawrinka won 3 slams the SHBH was considered to be dead. S&V was dead, and yet guys like M zverev and Muller went deep in the second week of a slam. NAdal and his game, how often was he written off?
I am not saying a type of game becomes obsolete though it can also happen (Wilander, Nystrom, Sundstrom moonballing v Mecir, SVing when new strings arrive), I am saying a player's game can become obsolete. Retrieving game by Nadal and Djoko making Hewitt outdated suddenly. Federer's is classy, so by definition is meant to resist the effect of time...but all those who had a similar game, Blake, Gasquet, Haas, got all a short successful career when the new generation arrived. Federer managed to survive it thanks to his amazing eye/hand coord. If I remember correctly, though my memory is not as good as yours, you also said that of Federer's game was obsolete (in 2014?) and that Stan was adapting better to the new game..until we saw what fed coudl really do with that new racquet. But Fed's game really looked outdated with his old racquet.

It's all about execution. If a certain game is executed to perfection, it's going to be succesfull, no matter what type of game it is. As for Nole: we can't say his game is obsolete, because for now he's not close to his former self.
I am not saying Nole's game is obsolete because he is not as good as then...I am saying he is obsolete cause I have seen players who will become better than him very soon.

Spectacularly failed with this example. The only similarity between Federer's game and Blake's is that they both play with a SHBH. Blake is 'hit as hard as you can - doesn't matter where the ball goes' - blunt trauma - he is the antithesis of Federer's guile.

What is your point? That Federer and Blake are different? Well done! Good sense of observation! Shame you missed the very point though. Blake was a shot maker, like all those guys I have listed. Which is the point I am trying to make. He did not belong to the RRunner generation! Those guys all learnt to play the game with high quality risky shots cause then it was paying back. Unfortuantely they all bumped into the RR generation who would not want to take as much risk as the "hit as hard as you can" type of guy.

Oh and Blake was extremely talented too. Hitting hard and reaching top 5 requires amazing talent!

by Emancipator Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:44 pm

If by shotmaker you mean - close your eyes and hit the ball as hard as you can - then yes, he was indeed a shotmaker.

And so too am I Big Grin

by Emancipator Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:46 pm

In any case your definition of 'similar player' is too broad to be meaningful.

Isner and Federer are similar players. Let's throw in Karlovic too.

by Emancipator Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:47 pm

I will be back - just popping out to kill Emancipator junior the second - 2 years overdue Grr

by summerblues Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:50 pm

Emancipator wrote:Really? For what? - do you enjoy watching lambs get slaughtered?

Yes if Fed is doing the slaughtering.

But that is not really what I meant. I just cherish the thought of seeing Fed's generation go, then Rafa/Nole/Andy and their generation go, maybe even Raonic/Dimitrov and their cohort decline and go, and then watching Fed playing for the big trophies against the generation that follows. And if he slaughters them, so much the better.

Unlike BB I do not care for H2Hs, so I have no time for more Fed-Nole matches. As far as Nole goes, it would be best if he keeps losing until he is chased out of the tour with his tail between his legs.

by summerblues Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:53 pm

Emancipator wrote:He is a good striker of the ball (but not in Nalbandian's league) and moves well. End quote. Most of the time he plays with big margins off both wings and grinds - just like the vast majority of the tour.

Agreed. Nishi is overrated on here. In the end, his game is not that different from most "modern" players - hit solid off both wings from the baseline, and base everything else off that. His game is slightly more entertaining - albeit far worse quality-wise - than Nole's.

by bogbrush Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:07 pm

Got to say I never got the love for Nishikoris level.

by noleisthebest Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:16 pm

summerblues wrote:I said it before and will say it again. I do not believe his heart is in it anymore. And that makes it very difficult to force himself to get ready. I thought those comments about "finally having two pain-free days" were also telling. A guy who has been out for almost a year will finally achieve pain-free days between his loss in IW and his first match in Miami? Yeah, right. To me it sounded like he was just trying to convince himself - on the cheap, without having to do the hard work - that things would now get better.

I think the opposite.

He is raring to play as before, but it’s hard to get off the ground.

He is playing with no confidence, that is the main problem.

I think he’ll get back to his best, just that it will take him a bit longer.

by Daniel Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:13 pm

Thought you were on about Fed for a second. Though wouldnt surprise me.

Djok is not going to be an exception to the age rule, as Fed and Nadal are. Esp the former. It's just how it goes. A few more losses. An injury. And it's over.

by summerblues Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:58 am

noleisthebest wrote:I think the opposite.

He is raring to play as before, but it’s hard to get off the ground.

I am sure you do. But you also think that he ran into the net because of Rafa's black magic, that he tanked his W final vs Murray and that he switched to Head as a sacrifice to help Serbia. Which is all admirably devoted and loyal of you, but is not related to reality. Same with his desire or lack thereof.

by Daniel Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:06 pm

summerblues wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:I think the opposite.

He is raring to play as before, but it’s hard to get off the ground.
I am sure you do. But you also think that he ran into the net because of Rafa's black magic, that he tanked his W final vs Murray and that he switched to Head as a sacrifice to help Serbia. Which is all admirably devoted and loyal of you, but is not related to reality. Same with his desire or lack thereof.

Hands down the funniest comment I have read on here. I was laughing my head off at work. Laugh

Rafa's black magic! Doh

by barrystar Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:24 pm

The answer to my OP 16 months later is, to a pretty damn good place, and only a few months after that post was written.

He's the best (most effective) in the world, and kudos to him, the motivation is evidently still there. That said, to me he still plays a relatively joyless and efficient game and wants too much to be loved as much as Federer or Nadal rather than accepted on his own terms - a sort of Sampras of the baseline.

by Tenez Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:41 pm

barrystar wrote:....
He's the best (most effective) in the world, .....

I'd say that is true over a week or 2 (TMS 1000 or a slam) and this is where is joyless, uninspiring tennis helps him a lot.....However on the day he is certainly not the best nor the most effective. He is just the most consistent.

by Jahu Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:07 pm

He was grilled nicely yesterday on press conference about his criminal Gimlestob friend who helped him ruin ATP, moron.

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