Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

by Tenez Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:58 pm

This is obviously a frustration release thread as this is what those forums are all about.

1 - He made the most of a depleted field: (Djoko, Murray, Nishi, Stan..etc absent). Annoying!
2 - Unable to beat the number 2, Roger Federer, on 4 occasions this year. Pathetic!
3 - Federer being injured with a very reduced schedule open the door for Nadal. Outrageously lucky!
4 - Lucky to save 3MPs v Pouille in Tokyo otherwise the race would still be on. Luck is his god!
5 - Grabbed a USO and its 2000pts without having to beat a top 25 seed!!! Shameless!
6 - He still plays outside the rules. 29s average in his first round in Paris...as an example. Any other word but cheat!?
7 - his game is not inspiring.Nadulesque!

To be continued.....

by naxroy Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:51 pm

you cant imagine how much I enjoy this threads

by Tenez Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:06 pm

naxroy wrote:you cant imagine how much I enjoy this threads

I am sure there are plenty of people enjoying the success of a talentless lucky cheat! Winking

by N2D2L Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:11 pm

Hahaha

by noleisthebest Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:11 pm

Tenez wrote:This is obviously a frustration release thread as this is what those forums are all about.

1 - He made the most of a depleted field: (Djoko, Murray, Nishi, Stan..etc absent). Annoying!
2 - Unable to beat the number 2, Roger Federer, on 4 occasions this year. Pathetic!
3 - Federer being injured with a very reduced schedule open the door for Nadal. Outrageously lucky!
4 - Lucky to save 3MPs v Pouille in Tokyo other wise the race would still be on. Luck is his god!
5 - Grabbed a USO and its 2000pts without having to beat a top 25 seed!!! Shameless!
6 - He still plays outside the rules. 29s average in his first round in Paris...as an example. Any other word but cheat!?
7 - his game is not inspiring.Nadulesque!

To be continued.....

You got the main ones!
Still...

8 - he is not real number one because he had rigged draws on top of depleted field.
9 - he turns people off from watching tournaments. Bercy is half-empty.
10 - he may have demanded slower balls this year which is why Federer wasn’t going to bother even turning up. (though I don’t think he was going to play in the first place)
I still remember how disgusted Federer was with the balls last time he played RG.
11 - I’m trying to come up with something funny but I can’t Sad

..Nadal being given number one on a plate is depressing...
Poor Murray had to play his socks off to earn his number one last year!

by naxroy Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:51 pm

keep them coming please, dont stop now

by naxroy Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:03 pm

from atpworldtour web: (this is good read for you, shiny happy people)

At 31, Nadal is the oldest player to finish year-end No. 1 in atp history

Having previously finished at the top in 2008, 2010 and 2013, Nadal becomes the first player to hold, lose and regain the year-end No. 1 on three occasions

He is also the first player to finish No. 1 four times in non-consecutive years, the first aged over-30 and the first to finish in the top spot four years since he last achieved the feat (2013). The nine-year gap between his first year-end No. 1 season (2008) and his last (2017) is also a record.

by Tenez Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:29 pm

naxroy wrote:from atpworldtour web: (this is good read for you, shiny happy people)

At 31, Nadal is the oldest player to finish year-end No. 1 in atp history

Having previously finished at the top in 2008, 2010 and 2013, Nadal becomes the first player to hold, lose and regain the year-end No. 1 on three occasions

He is also the first player to finish No. 1 four times in non-consecutive years, the first aged over-30 and the first to finish in the top spot four years since he last achieved the feat (2013). The nine-year gap between his first year-end No. 1 season (2008) and his last (2017) is also a record.

Yes except that he is not the real number one.

by naxroy Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:44 pm

of course... Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1! 2231271509

by luvsports! Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:50 pm

Wow. This thread.
Not even a hint of credit for Rafa?

by summerblues Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:42 am

luvsports! wrote:Not even a hint of credit for Rafa?

You mean Tenez should be happy that Federer is the second best player in the world this year? Winking

by HM Murdoch Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:03 am

naxroy wrote:from atpworldtour web: (this is good read for you, shiny happy people)

At 31, Nadal is the oldest player to finish year-end No. 1 in atp history

Having previously finished at the top in 2008, 2010 and 2013, Nadal becomes the first player to hold, lose and regain the year-end No. 1 on three occasions

He is also the first player to finish No. 1 four times in non-consecutive years, the first aged over-30 and the first to finish in the top spot four years since he last achieved the feat (2013). The nine-year gap between his first year-end No. 1 season (2008) and his last (2017) is also a record.

Apart from the first one, describing these as “records” is a bit of a stretch.

Even if we ignore their horribly contrived nature (“first over 30 to finish top four years after last achieving it”?!), these “records” all depend on not being able to hang on to number 1!

The second “record” could just as accurately be stated as “first number 1 player to have previously lost the ranking three times”.

The third record could just as accurately be stated as “the first player to achieve four YE#1 without achieving consecutive years”.

I’m not interested in denigrating Nadal but heralding these things as “records” is daft.

by naxroy Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:09 am

the record is being year end number 1 at 31 and the 9 years btween first and last time.

the rest might not be records, but first time it happens, I agree

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:39 am

naxroy wrote:the record is being year end number 1 at 31 and the 9 years btween first and last time.

the rest might not be records, but first time it happens, I agree

Even this is a daft record.

by Tenez Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:44 am

Let's give Nadal another chance. He has after all 2 big tournaments left to prove he is not as lucky as he seems. Those are not clay tournaments where pure strentgh and stamina make all the difference.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:48 am

Its not even right to be #1 by not playing the full season. Fed chose to skip clay completely and hence should pay the price for it.

Last year Murray was collecting points winning events where he didn't have to beat the YE #1 contender Djokovic. But it did come down to 1 last match for the crown and Murray won that. So in that regard, he did work enough to deserve his YE#1.

The argument that Nadal isn't the true #1 because he hasn't beaten the #2 Fed this year who is also the close condenter for the #1, is same as Fed's GOAT argument where Nadal's superior h2h has been seen as a big dent in Fed's resume.

by bogbrush Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:50 am

HM Murdoch wrote:
naxroy wrote:from atpworldtour web: (this is good read for you, shiny happy people)

At 31, Nadal is the oldest player to finish year-end No. 1 in atp history

Having previously finished at the top in 2008, 2010 and 2013, Nadal becomes the first player to hold, lose and regain the year-end No. 1 on three occasions

He is also the first player to finish No. 1 four times in non-consecutive years, the first aged over-30 and the first to finish in the top spot four years since he last achieved the feat (2013). The nine-year gap between his first year-end No. 1 season (2008) and his last (2017) is also a record.

Apart from the first one, describing these as “records” is a bit of a stretch.

Even if we ignore their horribly contrived nature (“first over 30 to finish top four years after last achieving it”?!), these “records” all depend on not being able to hang on to number 1!

The second “record” could just as accurately be stated as “first number 1 player to have previously lost the ranking three times”.

The third record could just as accurately be stated as “the first player to achieve four YE#1 without achieving consecutive years”.

I’m not interested in denigrating Nadal but heralding these things as “records” is daft.

It's always a relief to see your name appear on the forum.

by naxroy Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:57 am

fact is nadal is number 1 in the atp rankings, you like it or not

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:08 am

naxroy wrote:fact is nadal is number 1 in the atp rankings, you like it or not

GS: 2W, 1F
TMS: 2W, 2F
ATP500 : 2W, 1F

I think this is not bad to be YE#1

by N2D2L Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:15 am

How dare you insult my hero like that HM Murdoch.
Next you will be playing down the significance of his very important record of being the first player in history to regain world number 1 from Andy Murray after having got to number 1 4 years ago and then dropping out of the top 4 and then going back up to number 1, all while serving at a historic 75% first serve percentage.

by HM Murdoch Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:02 am

With 75% first serve? I take it back, this is epic achievement of the highest order! Winking

Seriously though, this kind of data splicing is what they need to do to pad out the achievements of the likes of Dimitrov. I don’t think Rafa needs this kind of fluff.

YE#1 is always a worthy achievement. I would however, say that the level of play that produced the YE#1 this year is the lowest level since 2003.

by Tenez Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:50 am

HM Murdoch wrote:...
YE#1 is always a worthy achievement. I would however, say that the level of play that produced the YE#1 this year is the lowest level since 2003.

I will have to plead in Nadal's favour here and contradict a bit of my semi-sarcastic initial post. Levels on the tour don't drop. It can certainly happen that the best player(s) are absent or injured but the rest of the field still gets better. To me Murray being number 1 last year is the real drop of level observable as the number 1 at the beginning of the year came from holding the 4 slams to losing them all due to what appears now an elbow injury. Murray had not beaten Federer in his last 5 encounters and made the most of an injured Djokovic.

Djokovic and Nadal have been struggling versus hard hitters such as Kyrgios recently, such players were not present in the past years and they are forces to be reckoned and make the level as tough as before even if they cannot be consistent enough to be a constant threat. Delpotro seems also to play better and more consistently than in the past. It's fair to say that Fed would probably have not won anything had he not switched racquets. A ball comimg back softly from one side completely changes the dynamic of a game.

And in 2003, Pete had no answer to young Hewitt or Safin (and their new strings), in spite of being at top level. (We know now that players are well within their top level at 29 even if they might be prone to more injuries).

by N2D2L Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:10 pm

Nah I think HM is right. With the exception of Nadal and Federer, the field has been really poor this year.
Del Potro playing better than the past? No way, he’s much easier to outmanovre now.

by HM Murdoch Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:48 pm

Nadal has played well this year but I think he produced a higher level in 08, 10 and 13.

I also think his 2017 level is definitely not as high as Federer’s 04-07 or Djoko’s 11 and 15.

The only other post-Roddick #1s were Fed 09, Djoko 12&14 and Murray 16.

Of those four, Fed 09 and Djoko 12 were pretty good years with very high peaks.

Djoko 14 and Murray 16 could perhaps be grouped with Rafa 17: good but some way short of great.

by N2D2L Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:10 pm

I agree, Nadal is playing well but he’s not at the level he was during his prime.

by Tenez Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:31 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:Nadal has played well this year but I think he produced a higher level in 08, 10 and 13.

I also think his 2017 level is definitely not as high as Federer’s 04-07 or Djoko’s 11 and 15.

I have heard that before but this is baseless. What makes you believe so? Would you still say Nadal's 2013 was his best if Djoko had not missed that easy smash in that FO13 final? How does Nadal's performance compare there with this year's clay season? I have heard it so many times that " better before"...but with this reasoning you would end up that the Musqueteers were the "best ever". Federer was in trouble in 2004-7 versus the very young road runners and if you think he was at his best then, he woudl have been crushed by them at 36!..he is still there simply because he has now a better racquet and is not nearly as weak on the BH. He also now has teh experience to play those guys which he had not then. Experience, and exposure, to play new guys is detrimental in tennis. It's like being coached by constantly better players. And they say it: "they made me a better player". Nadal of before woudl stand no chance standing that far back. He had to learn to be more aggressive (again he says it himslf), something he did not have to with Fed's Bh being so soft for instance.

Djoko 14 and Murray 16 could perhaps be grouped with Rafa 17: good but some way short of great.

Djoko 15 is certainly the level which can be measured against. His fitness level that year was absolutely crazy and his shots were much better than in 2011. But still it doean't mean that he woudl be able to cope with a Kyrgios in form, or even the best of Federer. I believe Federer beat him 3 times that year, in spite of adapting to his new racquet.

by HM Murdoch Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:18 pm

It’s no more than the judgement of my eyes.

In 08 I could watch the speed of Nadal and see how his shots were spitting off his racquet and I knew I was watching some pretty devastating tennis. I didn’t like it aesthetically, but there was no denying its potency.

In 13, especially the US HC swing, Nadal was bludgeoning shots and consistently landing them on the line. He was also positioned aggressively, right up on the baseline. It was easy to recognise it was a good level of tennis.

He’s been good this year but other than perhaps some improved serving, I’ve seen nothing that I haven’t seen him do better before.

by noleisthebest Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:41 pm

Nadal post 2014 is a very dfferent player...he worked very very hard (as only he can!!! - think hours of daily of super sweaty drills) for a few years trying to adjust and beat Djokovic.

In addition, he has improved his BH considerably (flatter and therefore faster, topspun not chipped), and the thing that I am always surorised people don’t even see let alone appreciate - he is playing much closer to the baseline...and for him that is a gigantic improvement.

We wondered and talked about it here 3-4 years ago...I didn’t really think it was going to be possible as I thought he’d need to change the grip.

In the end, he didn’t change the grip and thanks to his great footwork is still able to play his fh with the old grip...

To me, his game as a result looks uglier than ever, but it’s keeping him competitive.

Had he left everything as in 2009...he’d’ve retired long time ago.

by noleisthebest Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:56 pm

Federer also worked very hard during his break...his BH speaks loider than any words.

If Noke comes back, I am curious to see what he will have worked on.
My guess would be flatten his FH, work on its angles CC and especially DTL.

So of course, they are all much improved versions of their ”younger” selves, however good their “level” was percieved by us at the time.

Nole’s best year will always be 2015, but he may be playing his best tennis in 2019 and win zero slams...

Successful tennis and best tennis don’t always go hand in hand.

by Tenez Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:59 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:It’s no more than the judgement of my eyes.

At least that's a fair and valid statement. I have no other way to measure (bar the fact that I have measured tennis is played at roughly a 10% faster rate than 2008/9) and use comparison results to make up my mind.

i know however that, like in everything, we get accustomed to higher performance. Sampras serve was simply the best and so was Connors returns, Safin's BH etc....But now look at what they looked like and you can see our eyes have got used to Borg amazing footwork and McEnroe's reflexes. When new strings came on board and Hewitt could afford to stand a bit further back while able to whack the ball back, Pete's serve become much less efficient and a young Karlovic was the force as he blew Hewitt off court at SW19 in 2003. BH wise Safin was amazing until Nalby came on board and then you have guys like Stan or Nishi. Regarding Federer, please watch any match he played v Nadal and see how disadvantaged he was then with that sliced or weak BH.

In 08 I could watch the speed of Nadal and see how his shots were spitting off his racquet and I knew I was watching some pretty devastating tennis. I didn’t like it aesthetically, but there was no denying its potency

I remember perfectly and I even thought no-one would be able to run as fast and as long at the time, yet a couple of years later Djoko leaves Nadal on his track and can even outlast him. Djoko became the new standard and then Murray who looked like a slug in 2008 was giving Fed trouble. Years on Murray became much better but not compared to Federer, according to their last 5 encounters.

by HM Murdoch Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:33 pm

I don’t dispute the idea that the standard of tennis trends upwards over time but there are peaks and troughs along the way.

I don’t think it’s controversial to suggest that a season in which Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Nishikori and Raonic are injured or absent for periods and Federer plays a limited schedule, is a season in which attaining YE#1 is not the challenge it usually is.

It hasn’t required a stellar level of tennis and I don’t think Rafa has produced a stellar level.

In response to NITB, my hope is that Djoko flattens his forehand and rejuvenates the BHDTL.

by luvsports! Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:21 pm

Simon Cambers‏ [ltr]@scambers73[/ltr]

FollowingFollowing [size=14][ltr]@scambers73[/ltr][/size]

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Nadal clearly struggling to push off his right leg, therefore
it is affecting his movement to the forehand most.

by N2D2L Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:10 pm

Yeah such a shame.
Sensible thing to do would be immediately drop out of Paris, and frankly I think World Tour Finals is a huge doubt as well.

by luvsports! Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:16 pm

Agreed.
I want another Fedal match, with another win for Feds Big Grin

by Tenez Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:10 am

HM Murdoch wrote:
It hasn’t required a stellar level of tennis and I don’t think Rafa has produced a stellar level.

His clay season was probably his most impressive ever. In the past even when he was winning everything on clay he had very close matches against average players that he managed to win by the skin of his teeth. This year he was H&S above the field on clay and if it was not for Fed, he may have 3 more TMS and a 3rd slam.

I agree however that I'd expect a fit Djoko or even Murray to get the better of him.

by Tenez Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:12 am

luvsports! wrote:Simon Cambers‏
[ltr]@scambers73[/ltr]

FollowingFollowing
[ltr]@scambers73[/ltr]

More
Nadal clearly struggling to push off his right leg, therefore
it is affecting his movement to the forehand most.

Wish Fed would be playing Paris.

by Daniel Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:08 am

Credit for what, exactly? Being the luckiest player I've ever seen? This year he's had absolutely cake walk draws. It's mad how many bullets he's dodged... and only Federer to stop him in finals. He's had the easiest US Open draw in living memory. The only way he was going to win it. It's very irritating. Federer has been the best player this year, but thanks to the draws, and Nadal having no opposition on clay, he's not WN1. You can ooo and aah all you like, but those are the facts.

I fully expect now to see Fed handed a nightmare Tour Finals draw, and Nadal skate through. Probably that big gorilla Cilic just brainlessly passing the ball back to him in the SF or Final. Hahaha.

by noleisthebest Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:49 am

Daniel wrote:Credit for what, exactly? Being the luckiest player I've ever seen? This year he's had absolutely cake walk draws. It's mad how many bullets he's dodged... and only Federer to stop him in finals. He's had the easiest US Open draw in living memory. The only way he was going to win it. It's very irritating. Federer has been the best player this year, but thanks to the draws, and Nadal having no opposition on clay, he's not WN1. You can ooo and aah all you like, but those are the facts.

I fully expect now to see Fed handed a nightmare Tour Finals draw, and Nadal skate through. Probably that big gorilla Cilic just brainlessly passing the ball back to him in the SF or Final. Hahaha.

by naxroy Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:10 am

Daniel wrote:Credit for what, exactly? Being the luckiest player I've ever seen? This year he's had absolutely cake walk draws. It's mad how many bullets he's dodged... and only Federer to stop him in finals. He's had the easiest US Open draw in living memory. The only way he was going to win it. It's very irritating. Federer has been the best player this year, but thanks to the draws, and Nadal having no opposition on clay, he's not WN1. You can ooo and aah all you like, but those are the facts.

I fully expect now to see Fed handed a nightmare Tour Finals draw, and Nadal skate through. Probably that big gorilla Cilic just brainlessly passing the ball back to him in the SF or Final. Hahaha.

ooo and aah!!!

by summerblues Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:52 pm

I have been saying that I think Fed has a decent chance to claim #1 during clay court season next year. However, upon closer inspection, I am not so sure.

Here is how many points Rafa has won in the first part of the year (through RG) the last few years:

2017: 6,915
2016: 2,930
2015: 2,560
2014: 6,465
2013: 7,000
2012: 6,600
2011: 6,350
2010: 6,230
2009: 6,805

While 2017 was one of his best years, most of the other years were kind of in the same ballpark, with the exception of 2015-16. So 6,000+ points is not all that extraordinary for Rafa. If he can do that, then I doubt Fed will catch him, as I do not think Fed will come close to repeating his AO/IW/Miami triple.

For Fed to have a realistic chance, Rafa's 2018 would have to look similar to his 2015-16. Even then, Fed would still have some work to do, but at least it would be quite plausible.

by Tenez Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:17 pm

Good work. What about Nadal losing early in AO and Fed reaching the final? If Nadal does not play London and Fed wins it, then it is roughly 150pt difference before AO18. ...though with dropping points the difference gets to 950pts. Fed reaching final (1200) and Nadal losing in the first 4 rounds would be ok...isn't it?

by Jahu Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:13 pm

I rather have Nadal than that cuck Djoko. This year I enjoyed tennis, no Djoko, no Andy, been one of best years of tennis for last 5 years.

by Tenez Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:21 pm

But how much is that down to Federer. Imagine Nadal winning 3 slams....or maybe 4 had he converted his BPs v Gilles at Wimby!

We were so lucky to have a still fit Federer.

by bogbrush Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:26 pm

Feds last chance now comes from cleaning up at the O2 and doing well at the AO, and Nadal doing poorly at both. No reason why not.

After that it’s all to lose at IW & Miami and I’m almost sure he’s played his last clay tournament. I suppose he might just show up at Monte Carlo or Rome if it took just a handful of points to get it.

OR..... Nadal finally do poorly in the clay season.

by naxroy Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:40 pm

nadal will do poorly on clay someday ... dont give up

by bogbrush Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:37 pm

I can’t give up, I never started competing.

by summerblues Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:30 am

Tenez wrote:Good work. What about Nadal losing early in AO and Fed reaching the final? If Nadal does not play London and Fed wins it, then it is roughly 150pt difference before AO18. ...though with dropping points the difference gets to 950pts. Fed reaching final (1200) and Nadal losing in the first 4 rounds would be ok...isn't it?

I have not looked at all scenarios but I think you are probably right. It is quite a big ask though:

Fed to win WTF
Rafa to do very poorly at WTF, or miss it altogether
Fed reach AO final
Rafa go out early at AO

Possible, but a lot can go wrong.

by Tenez Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:34 am

I would not be surprised if Fed did not bother going to Australia for once.

by naxroy Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:33 am

austalia suits him, why would he?

he could miss the us masters or one of them... and then the clay season... but australia, dont see it

by noleisthebest Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:47 am

Tenez wrote:I would not be surprised if Fed did not bother going to Australia for once.

Why not...

Keep freshness for Europe.

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