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Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by Tenez on Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:05 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote:I would not be surprised if Fed did not bother going to Australia for once.  
Why not...

Keep freshness for Europe.
It's a long trip. He has been on the tour for (too) many years!

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by legendkillar on Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:11 pm

Sadly he is the real number 1.

It's just the conclusions and circumstances that many will draw from how he got there.

Sadly Federer is the only one with the points behind him able enough to displace him, unless of course Nadal either hits a real slump of form or gets injured.

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by barrystar on Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:38 pm

Nadal's the real #1 all right - no doubt about that.

But I ask myself the different question as to who has had the better year of him or Federer.  

It's not over yet, but thus far on the numbers and as between two former #1's (i.e. not guys fighting to be #1 for the first time) I'd say Fed's has been marginally better - overall more wins in bigger tournaments and an extraordinary 4-0 H2H.  If Fed picks up the WTF that becomes clearer still, but if Nadal does, especially if he beats Fed on the way, then probably his year has been the better on the numbers, including because he'll have scratched the last big win to elude him from that bucket list.

Fed's year has been extra-special from another point of view, namely the effect on their respective legacies.  Fed has plenty of slack in terms of weeks at #1, but the gap of 3 slams, whilst big and looking solid during Nadal's travails of 2015-2016, was never quite so obviously untouchable vs. a 'never say die' competitor five years Fed's junior.  One of the reasons they generate so much debate is that you never can tell with those two, and if Nadal can maintain his current form (even in patches) and the rest of the field stay so relatively far behind he's certainly got more slams in him.  That said, I think it's quite likely that this year, and perhaps particularly that extraordinary AO win, will prove to have been absolutely crucial for Fed maintaining his slam tally lead to the end of their respective careers.

As a Fed fan I say Nadal can have the #1, and he can hang onto it for another year for all I care.  From Fed's point of view I think that this year is not just one of top 5 years on its own merits, but in terms of how he will be regarded when his career is over there is an argument that this will be one of the two or three most significant years of his career too - something that I do not feel you can say about 2017 for Nadal.

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by naxroy on Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:06 pm

as a nadal fan I dont really feel that federer´s achievements do any bad to nadal´s year.

we nadal fans thought we would never see him win a slam again, and not only he won his beloved roland garros, but he won in USA again. also he did great getting to final in australia.

excellent year that we have ejoyed a lot.

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:05 am

barrystar wrote:Nadal's the real #1 all right - no doubt about that.

But I ask myself the different question as to who has had the better year of him or Federer.  

It's not over yet, but thus far on the numbers and as between two former #1's (i.e. not guys fighting to be #1 for the first time) I'd say Fed's has been marginally better - overall more wins in bigger tournaments and an extraordinary 4-0 H2H.  If Fed picks up the WTF that becomes clearer still, but if Nadal does, especially if he beats Fed on the way, then probably his year has been the better on the numbers, including because he'll have scratched the last big win to elude him from that bucket list.

Fed's year has been extra-special from another point of view, namely the effect on their respective legacies.  Fed has plenty of slack in terms of weeks at #1, but the gap of 3 slams, whilst big and looking solid during Nadal's travails of 2015-2016, was never quite so obviously untouchable vs. a 'never say die' competitor five years Fed's junior.  One of the reasons they generate so much debate is that you never can tell with those two, and if Nadal can maintain his current form (even in patches) and the rest of the field stay so relatively far behind he's certainly got more slams in him.  That said, I think it's quite likely that this year, and perhaps particularly that extraordinary AO win, will prove to have been absolutely crucial for Fed maintaining his slam tally lead to the end of their respective careers.

As a Fed fan I say Nadal can have the #1, and he can hang onto it for another year for all I care.  From Fed's point of view I think that this year is not just one of top 5 years on its own merits, but in terms of how he will be regarded when his career is over there is an argument that this will be one of the two or three most significant years of his career too - something that I do not feel you can say about 2017 for Nadal.

Good point, Barry!

I would also add a hypothetical scenario that have we had a fit Djokovic this year, Nadal certainly would not have won two slams or came close to being number one.

To me, Federer has completely vanquished Nadal with his neobackhand, and raised himself another notch above the rest with the level of tennis he was able to display.

The only door to unlock would be a say, 2015 version of Djokovic as Djokovic is a superior baseline player from the baseline to Nadal.

Having seen Wimbledon 2015 final live and how he physically demolished Federer in two sets (as well as in AO), it would be interesting to see if he could cope with Federer’s new arsenal.

Of course, Federer now is really playing on fumes in the finals and semifinals, but, still it would be very close, esp in decent fast conditions.

p.s.

welcome to OTF! smiley

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by barrystar on Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:02 am

naxroy wrote:as a nadal fan I dont really feel that federer´s achievements do any bad to nadal´s year.

That is absolutely not my point - he's had a fantastic year and he is out there as deserved #1 - there's no doubt about that.  I was attempting a comparison of their years from different perspectives and, as you see, I think that Fed's is marginally better thus far from point of view of the tournament wins and the very unusual H2H, and I also suggested tentatively that it may ultimately prove a more significant year for Fed's legacy than it will for Nadal's.  None of those sentiments was intended, or has the effect in practice, of downplaying an absolutely fantastic year for Nadal.  

One truth we can all agree on is that both players and their fans should be absolutely delighted with the year that each of them has had.

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by naxroy on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:15 pm

main difference between the two in 2017 is the h2h

but we all know this h2h has a lot to do with not having played on clay as well

also we know that h2h doesnt explain, not at least in a very accurate way, who is better than who

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by naxroy on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:16 pm

noleisthebest crying over the draw in 3, 2, 1...

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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by Tenez on Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 pm

naxroy wrote:...also we know that h2h doesnt explain, not at least in a very accurate way, who is better than who

H2H are very important and always tell a story, especially when there are so many matches to refer to.

Nadal simply became a better player than Federer on clay post 2005 and even better on other surfaces post 2008. Very simply cause Federer came from the older generation and learnt tennis on different conds with different players and different technology. Had Fed been born 5 years later, Nadal may never have won a match against him. Now that Federer is using an updated racquet, he realises how much time and success he has wasted over his career. Not entirely his fault as it is difficult to change the main tool, but that was his big mistake and certainly explains that one sidedness H2H.


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Re: Why Rafa is not the real 2017 number 1!

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:49 pm

naxroy wrote:noleisthebest crying over the draw in 3, 2, 1...
No, NITB was having a time of her life playing tennis in the sunshine.

As for the draw and Nadal...please don’t flatter yourself...I view Nadal as a temporary stench that will eventually have to vacate the room and let the fresh air in.

The man is a cheat and that’s all I can say about him...the sooner he retires, the better.

Tennis won’t miss him. It will happily recover, and hopefully the dignity of umpires etc...

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