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Federer's Backhand

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Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:19 pm

....does something inexplicable to my heart and mind.

Maybe I'll be able to express it one day.

In the meantime, behold the beauty...




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0fEC78A3lIw

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Veejay on Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:34 pm

lets hope that it can hold up against he moonballer on sunday
does anyone actually think that roger stands much of a chance?
i havent watched nadal play this tournament so i cant comment on his form 
what do you have to say NITB?

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:39 pm

As I said on the other thread, Fed will have to win this.

He will simply do it.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Veejay on Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:53 pm

NITB wrote:As I said on the other thread, Fed will have to win this.

He will simply do it.
he definitely needs to win it but winning it is a different matter..
anyway...miracles do happen...

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Slippy on Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:52 pm

This is tricky for Fed. It's a huge final for him and he tends to underperform in those (see Wim 09, Olympics 12 or Wim 15). If he plays somewhere near his best he wins but that's a massive "if". That said, I think he will win this time. The courts suit him and Rafa isn't playing great. Fed in 4.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Slippy wrote:This is tricky for Fed. It's a huge final for him and he tends to underperform in those (see Wim 09, Olympics 12 or Wim 15). If he plays somewhere near his best he wins but that's a massive "if". That said, I think he will win this time. The courts suit him and Rafa isn't playing great. Fed in 4.

How come?
I thought he was excellent today.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Lydian on Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:20 pm

This is the best photo ever taken of Federer bar none.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Lydian on Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:20 pm



Click image to reveal all.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:56 pm

Yes, that is a fantastic picture.
A whole story in it.

The one I chose is more heavenly and almost angelic as it shows Federer's still face and his arms swung back like wings.

He looks like from another world in it, whereas in the one you posted you see him getting those wings dirty, you see the evil, stormy world he is facing and figthing.

Two sides of the same coin.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Slippy on Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:33 am

NITB wrote:
Slippy wrote:This is tricky for Fed. It's a huge final for him and he tends to underperform in those (see Wim 09, Olympics 12 or Wim 15). If he plays somewhere near his best he wins but that's a massive "if". That said, I think he will win this time. The courts suit him and Rafa isn't playing great. Fed in 4.

How come?
I thought he was excellent today.
He's still far more error-prone than at his peak and is obviously slower. He's obviously still a phenomenal player (in his own way) but Fed's game is closer to his peak level than Rafa's. It's definitely on Fed's racquet, although I'm less certain he will win than I was before he got himself in trouble against Stan.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:50 am

Slippy, I am surprised you do not see the huge progress from that era



Nadal is playing much better now than then. And as I mentioned before they are playing 15 to 20% faster now than in 2009.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by legendkillar on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:08 am

https://youtu.be/IegHMhTqw78

Arguably the ballsiest backhand ever!

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:56 am

Slippy wrote:
NITB wrote:
Slippy wrote:This is tricky for Fed. It's a huge final for him and he tends to underperform in those (see Wim 09, Olympics 12 or Wim 15). If he plays somewhere near his best he wins but that's a massive "if". That said, I think he will win this time. The courts suit him and Rafa isn't playing great. Fed in 4.

How come?
I thought he was excellent today.
He's still far more error-prone than at his peak and is obviously slower. He's obviously still a phenomenal player (in his own way) but Fed's game is closer to his peak level than Rafa's. It's definitely on Fed's racquet, although I'm less certain he will win than I was before he got himself in trouble against Stan.

I don't know why you think he's slower.

The fact he is able to play from closer to the baseline says the opposite.
I remember when he first tried it, two years ago...and thought he'd never get used to it - but he did.

He has amazing movement that even in these faster conditions in Oz are allowing his still subpar ball striking (compared to Federer's early ball timing) to take him to the final.

As Tenez said, his BH is much better, and I don't even remember him slice it yesterday, so, that says a lot.

Federer's relaxed FH is faster than Dimi's so I hope that will make Nadal slice/chip those BHs again and give Federer time to attack it.

We'll see...

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:59 am

legendkillar wrote:https://youtu.be/IegHMhTqw78

Arguably the ballsiest backhand ever!

This is where I show my fedal ignorance! Is that the 2007 or 8 final?

Regardless, sums up Federer.

And why I am mad about his BH.

It stops the heart. Yet you are alive.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by legendkillar on Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:11 pm

The 08 final. My mum was convinced Nadal had won it when he hit the FH to the BH and approached the net and boom Federer saved it and won the breaker.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Daniel on Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:50 pm

Federer is slower than at his peak, his reaction times are slower, and his backhand is significantly more inferior. He does play smarter shots now at least, and his serve is still great if it holds up and doesn't lapse (which it tends to do more these days).

That's why some/most are not predicting the fairytale finish.

The problem is that a few around here honestly believe that Federer at 35 is a better player than at 25 when all logic, stats, and nearly every fact goes against them.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:03 pm

legendkillar wrote:The 08 final. My mum was convinced Nadal had won it when he hit the FH to the BH and approached the net and boom Federer saved it and won the breaker.

It was shocking to see how big Nadal looked without sleeves in that clip.
Federer looks so silky there. He was too nice for Nadal.

And that has definitely changed. He won't be siffering fools gladly tomorrow, that's for sure.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:06 pm

Daniel wrote:Federer is slower than at his peak, his reaction times are slower, and his backhand is significantly more inferior. He does play smarter shots now at least, and his serve is still great if it holds up and doesn't lapse (which it tends to do more these days).

That's why some/most are not predicting the fairytale finish.

The problem is that a few around here honestly believe that Federer at 35 is a better player than at 25 when all logic, stats, and nearly every fact goes against them.

How can you say his reaction times are slower....

Are you blind?

Do you know how tough it is to SABR?

Or win S&V IN TODAY'S CONDITIONS?

You are not able to compare conditions, that's the problem.

You probably think if Sampras was 25 he'd come and bounce Nadal off the court...

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:57 pm

Daniel wrote:Federer is slower than at his peak, his reaction times are slower, and his backhand is significantly more inferior. He does play smarter shots now at least, and his serve is still great if it holds up and doesn't lapse (which it tends to do more these days).

That's why some/most are not predicting the fairytale finish.

The problem is that a few around here honestly believe that Federer at 35 is a better player than at 25 when all logic, stats, and nearly every fact goes against them.

When will you finally understand that playing better doesn't mean playing more consistently for longer? You cannot compare a 35 in his first round macthes with a 35yo in his 7th and final match of a slam.

But anyway since we have argued all the stats have proved you wrong. someone over 30 will win again tomorrow like at the last slam too...and it is very likely that this year all slam winners might be over 30. Hopefully not. But any youngsters beating those 30s players will end up playing much better than them in a few years.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:58 pm

NITB wrote:
You probably think if Sampras was 25 he'd come and bounce Nadal off the court...
Laugh Exactly. In fact young laver woudl have beaten them all.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by bogbrush on Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:53 pm

Won him the match today, no question.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:02 pm

bogbrush wrote:Won him the match today, no question.
It did!

I was just going to say how comfortable Federer was on his BH, and how beautifully he was timing it.

It was impressive.


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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:21 pm

Well the serve as well. 20 aces compared to half those in 2009 in the same tournament. 11 precious points which coudl have saved federer in their close 2009 encounter.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by bogbrush on Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:25 pm

True but he always (well normally) serves well, that was par for the course. Perhaps it didn't happen in 2009 but normally Federer should get lots of free points on the serve.

What wasn't normal was Nadal finding that hitting to the backhand became a very risky strategy. It's was incredible. Like you, I am left with regret that he didn't move to this racquet 6 years previously.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:43 am

I am yet to see the 4th and 5th set, but does this point from the 5 th set maybe indicate that Nadal won't be able to win against Federer by bludgeoning his BH any more?


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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:20 am

Certainly one of the best point...Though Nadal could have exploited the first BHs which are soft but the guy is gutless. There is nothing trying to hurt in his shots. ...unless he has no choice (far off side court). He is just hoping for a mistake.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:53 am

Tenez wrote:Certainly one of the best point...Though Nadal could have exploited the first BHs which are soft but the guy is gutless. There is nothing trying to hurt in his shots. ...unless he has no choice  (far off side court). He is just hoping for a mistake.
So true!

Nadal had many chances to pull the trigger relatively safely early on in the rally, but didn't.

Federer worked the point masterfully. So many unusual FHs & spins from him, angles etc...he's really learnt to play with the new technology and it's interesting to watch him do it and have an upper hand, though of course I prefer him in his flying mode like vs Berdych or Zverev...

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:47 am

Numbers prove what the eyes saw:


http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/2017/01/30/the-federer-backhand-that-finally-beat-nadal/

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by bogbrush on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:06 pm

Here's 13 minutes of bliss

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAYbygk-ljc

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:03 am

bogbrush wrote:Here's 13 minutes of bliss

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAYbygk-ljc

In particular those points versus Berdych. That's his best match by far. Proably cause he has got used to the pace of the court by the 3rd round, he is still fresh (first week) and Berdych pace, flater hitting is what Fed grew up to play against. Piece of cake for him. Beautiful display.

After that match it was essetially about managing his energy....which he did not do too well.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:03 am

bogbrush wrote:Here's 13 minutes of bliss

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAYbygk-ljc
Oh yes!

I just had it instead of breakfast Big Grin

I love the name of the clip "neo backhand".

It is sublime.

He's got them all perfect: volleys, slices, DTLs, CCs, angles....beautiful, beautiful, beautiful! love

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by bogbrush on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:41 pm

Check out "italkcrab"s comment a short way down. Made me smile.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Emancipator on Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:48 pm

Neo backhand. Ridiculous hyperbole. How about just 'Federer's normal BH in slightly faster conditions i.e. not the turgidly slow stuff we've had to endure for years'.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Daniel on Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:21 am

TMF wrote:Neo backhand. Ridiculous hyperbole. How about just 'Federer's normal BH in slightly faster conditions i.e. not the turgidly slow stuff we've had to endure for years'.

Yeah, it's made by someone who clearly didn't watch Federer in 2006.  His backhand was as lethal as this in his prime and under faster conditions, it's even more deadly.  Nadal couldn't play the loopy spin one trick pony shot as easy either.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:05 am

Yes once again you don't want to see what everybody else sees. "You can take a horse to the pond ...."

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by luvsports! on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:41 am

... but you can't make that horse admit that Feds' backhand is better now than it was in 2006!

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:23 pm

Yes. Impossible..but there is no escape for the horse. So if Fed's BH is not as good as before and Fed is much worse fitness wise than 11 years ago...how come he beat Nadal in his last 2 encounters...things he could hardly do in his hey days?

That horse does not drink water but surely loves humble pies.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:44 am

Fed's BH in the AO final has worked better than its ever did against any opponents till now, leave Nadal. Fed's BH against Nadal is worst than against any opponent. 

So this AO, 2017 was extra special. And it wouldn't have taken anything less to win.

I doubt Fed can keep that level of BH in future. Maybe in some matches, but not always. Its practically impossible.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:03 am

luvsports! wrote:... but you can't make that horse admit that Feds' backhand is better now than it was in 2006!
What makes you think it was better in 2006?

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:47 pm

bogbrush wrote:Here's 13 minutes of bliss

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAYbygk-ljc
I've watched the clip several times now....no words to describe how good Federer was this AO.

Totally rampant yet smooth.

Skill at its finest, the way he struck some of those BHs...like projectiles - some went quicker that his FH.

And that volley smash vs Nishi, two BH volleys in one point....A-MA-ZING!

And particularly good in this clip is that we see him play all his opponents, and how he dealt with each slightly differently as every one of those 7 players was sending him a different ball, wnr for his BH in a different way.

The match against Nadal may not have been The Albatros in full flight, but the way he handled Nadal's FH bombs on his BH and sent them back with speed and accuracy, was unbelievable.

Nobody will ever play like that.

And yes, I forgot his half-volleys.


This AO was his best slam. He played his best tennis. Full stop.

ps
Thanks for posting the link, BB!

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by bogbrush on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:52 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Fed's BH in the AO final has worked better than its ever did against any opponents till now, leave Nadal. Fed's BH against Nadal is worst than against any opponent. 

So this AO, 2017 was extra special. And it wouldn't have taken anything less to win.

I doubt Fed can keep that level of BH in future. Maybe in some matches, but not always. Its practically impossible.
I think this is the backhand given the Court bounce and the pace; I see no reason why he won't reproduce that performance. It wasn't as if it was a one-day thing, as the clip showed it was strong throughout.

The question is whether conditions in other events permit it. He was able to take time away from opponents so the opponents balls often had less action on it (very relevant to the final), and the bounce seemed a bit lower than normal so the ball went to his hitting zone. On red clay, or if Miami is the usual sludge, then I'd expect him to have a higher ball to cope with. 

That said I think he is now hitting his backhand better than ever provided he is in position. It's that condition which means he won't be always hitting best-ever backhands in 2017. Oh, and the forehand isn't a patch on early days Federer.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:09 pm

I don't even think the bounce of this court was crucial vs Nadal.

Federer simply takes the ball (BH) earlier than before.

And the larger frame allowed him to do it.

I think in these 6 months off he finally got the timing right, and Ljubicic was the right guy to help him there.


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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:14 pm

Luthi:

Speaking about the preparation ahead of the final, Luthi added: 'On Fiday Roger had his day off, but I advised him to hit with a lefty, since we never practiced with one in December, and in the first round he had struggled with Melzer. So we trained with Omar Jasika.'
On the tactics they adopted, Luthi added: 'He didn't give Nadal angles and time. The balls were faster than past years and it made a big difference. It was important for Roger to step on the court with a clear game plan. It was incredible how he was convinced to win this match. He was sure to win. I remember only once when Roger hit the backhand this flat and early, this was ATP Finals 2011 where he beat Rafa in straight sets.'


http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/tennis/ich-spuerte-dass-fuer-roger-alles-moeglich-ist/story/23037215

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:31 pm

Yes and again in wtf 11 the low bouncing helped. In this AO the frame helped too.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Daniel on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:14 pm

NITB wrote:
luvsports! wrote:... but you can't make that horse admit that Feds' backhand is better now than it was in 2006!
What makes you think it was better in 2006?

Nearly all the videos of 2006.  If you bother to watch them. And that was at a time he used a smaller racquet.  Something else you and Tenez conveniently ignore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJjNpoHJgg

Nadal is again the opponent.  Smaller racquet, great backhand. While we are at it, a much better forehand and faster court coverage.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:34 pm

OK, 
I've seen the clip. Thanks, always a pleasure to see Fed, esp as I never watched Fedal matches.

It was interesting to see the change.

I still claim Federer's BH is better now. 
He has simply reached new heights with it - he is hitting it cleaner and with more variety, - more angles, much better volleys.

In addition, Nadal's FH is quicker now than in 2006. Not to mention the BH (and probably the serve, too).

In 2006 clip, Fed's BH is keeping him in ralies (though of course he hit a few great DTL winners with it) now he wins points with it more easily.

His BH is deeper and more accurate. Plus better with angles.

He is striking it with great zest and confidence , just like he was striking a lot of his FHs back then.

Court coverage was not better in 2006.

Watch that clip BB posted.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:11 am

Daniel wrote:
NITB wrote:
luvsports! wrote:... but you can't make that horse admit that Feds' backhand is better now than it was in 2006!
What makes you think it was better in 2006?

Nearly all the videos of 2006.  If you bother to watch them. And that was at a time he used a smaller racquet.  Something else you and Tenez conveniently ignore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJjNpoHJgg

Nadal is again the opponent.  Smaller racquet, great backhand. While we are at it, a much better forehand and faster court coverage.


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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by ... on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:29 am

Tenez wrote:
Daniel wrote:
NITB wrote:
luvsports! wrote:... but you can't make that horse admit that Feds' backhand is better now than it was in 2006!
What makes you think it was better in 2006?

Nearly all the videos of 2006.  If you bother to watch them. And that was at a time he used a smaller racquet.  Something else you and Tenez conveniently ignore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJjNpoHJgg

Nadal is again the opponent.  Smaller racquet, great backhand. While we are at it, a much better forehand and faster court coverage.


Laugh Laugh Laugh

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by gallery play on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:31 am

Daniel wrote:
NITB wrote:
luvsports! wrote:... but you can't make that horse admit that Feds' backhand is better now than it was in 2006!
What makes you think it was better in 2006?

Nearly all the videos of 2006.  If you bother to watch them. And that was at a time he used a smaller racquet.  Something else you and Tenez conveniently ignore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJjNpoHJgg

Nadal is again the opponent.  Smaller racquet, great backhand. While we are at it, a much better forehand and faster court coverage.

I have to say this clip doesn't support your point. Throughout the clip i see a solid backhand, but he only uses it as a set up for the FH winner. Look at the rally at 1:39: Federer hits firm yet safe BH's. But none of them is really knifelike. On the notoriously fast courts of Shanghai those BH's were just enough to keep him in the rally, eventually the moment for the big FH came across. In a similar rally during AO 2017, he would have put the ball away.. with the BH!
And if that's because of the bigger frame, so be it.

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Re: Federer's Backhand

Post by Tenez on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:14 pm

This is exactly what I wanted to say but knew that Daniel would deny the obvious again, hence my YouTube clip reply . I am sure that with a bigger frame, Federer would have pulled winners or hurt badly Nadal back then too but without the confidence of having a bigger sweetspot Federer was bound to sacrify pace for safety so Nadal was getting to that BH with time to spare and I could not see a single BH winner in that clip.

Very different to what we saw this year with 15 BH winners and probably creating more problems for Nadal's court positioning.

Daniel  could have found a better clip where his BH was great and hurting with a few winners but that was after Fed reached 30 in that WTF semi where he destroyed Nadal 63 60 ...but then again it defeats his point about Fed peaking in 2006...5 years earlier.


Last edited by Tenez on Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Federer's Backhand

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