ATP Tour Final - The Draw

ouch...what a mistake from Stan not to challenge!

Wh didn't he challenge that?
Even I saw it was out.
I can't believe Damien overruled it, it was right under his nose.

noleisthebest wrote:Wh didn't he challenge that?
Even I saw it was out.
I can't believe Damien overruled it, it was right under his nose.

but on the wrong side.

Disgusted with that break. Murray at his "best".

Gorgeous shotmaking from Stan.
ALLEZ!!!

Or should I say Come Oooonnnn!

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Wh didn't he challenge that?
Even I saw it was out.
I can't believe Damien overruled it, it was right under his nose.

but on the wrong side.

What do you mean?

Hold on Stan!!!

Good match so far actually.

Well done Stan!!!!!

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Wh didn't he challenge that?
Even I saw it was out.
I can't believe Damien overruled it, it was right under his nose.

but on the wrong side.

What do you mean?

Damien was behind the line so for him the ball looked in. He should know better though. As Flemming said on Sky, the closest line is very hard for a referee to call.

What's Murray moaning about now?

DONALD TRUMP wrote:Good match so far actually.

Yep...pretty good quality and great shot making from both....especially Stan.

This is the best BH display I've ever seen from Stan!

noleisthebest wrote:This is the best BH display I've ever seen from Stan!

Yes best display full stop. Last time he played as well was when he lost to Fed in Wimby 14 after being a set up and nearly winning teh second. His BH that day was amazing.

FO final??

luvsports! wrote:FO final??

I've got to see that match.
Spent most of it behind the sofa.

And Murray will finish number 2? not sure he deserves it.

Tenez wrote:And Murray will finish number 2? not sure he deserves it.

Amazing he amassed all those points without a slam.

luvsports! wrote:FO final??

Yes he played well there too...but watch Wimby 14 v Fed again.....just the hilighs pretty impressive.

Come on Stan, serve it out!

Please.

Murray has the cheek to complain about Stan taking time with his challenge...

As I said at the beginning of teh match, Murray was gone physically by the end of it.

Great match from Stan!

Oh those wings of love...

Tenez wrote:As I said at the beginning of teh match, Murray was gone physically by the end of it.

He is just too heavy for all that sprinting, isn't he?

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:As I said at the beginning of teh match, Murray was gone physically by the end of it.

He is just too heavy for all that sprinting, isn't he?

He is. In best of 5 it's even more of a weakness v the top players.

So we have the Big 4 in the semis tomorrow?

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:As I said at the beginning of teh match, Murray was gone physically by the end of it.

He is just too heavy for all that sprinting, isn't he?

He is. In best of 5 it's even more of a weakness v the top players.

And there really isn't much he can do about it?
He's hit the glass ceiling.

I must say, the Swiss duo delivered some great tennis this week!

It would've been pretty grim without them, though Nishi was ok, too. In his silky way.

noleisthebest wrote:So we have the Big 4 in the semis tomorrow?

I woudl actually say the big 3. Sure Nadal beat Stan this week but that was a very average display from Stan. nadal needs to prove he can beat those guys regularly before being called a big 4 again.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:As I said at the beginning of teh match, Murray was gone physically by the end of it.

He is just too heavy for all that sprinting, isn't he?

He is. In best of 5 it's even more of a weakness v the top players.

And there really isn't much he can do about it?
He's hit the glass ceiling.

Or be more aggressive like Nadal. He can for sure....but consistently enough to win against the big guys? not sure.

If his back holds on I expect him to progress also in the nest 2 years.....but the question is how quicker the others will progress.....

Tenez wrote:
Or be more aggressive like Nadal. He can for sure....but consistently enough to win against the big guys? not sure.
If his back holds on I expect him to progress also in the nest 2 years.....but the question is how quicker the others will progress.....

The thing is, he manifests his aggression through muscling the ball, and he tires quickly from it.
He puts his best effort against Djokovic and always comes short.

He also gets too passive too often because I think it's hard for him to maintain such high physical level as well as run as much as he does.

How do you see him more aggressive?

The only thing that could help him was better serving and even there, it's a lot of muscle, not placement or timing - so guaranteed to break down in a tight match.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:So we have the Big 4 in the semis tomorrow?

I woudl actually say the big 3. Sure Nadal beat Stan this week but that was a very average display from Stan. nadal needs to prove he can beat those guys regularly before being called a big 4 again.

I agree. Stan would've beaten Nadal had they not played in round one, I think.

I can't believe what a choker he used to be!

noleisthebest wrote:
How do you see him more aggressive?

The only thing that could help him was better serving and even there, it's a lot of muscle, not placement or timing - so guaranteed to break down in a tight match.

His second serve is better, he also served and volleyed a few times and was successful each. Sure he muscles the ball but generates a decent pace too.

As I showed on the USO14 clip it's clear that both him and Nole are more aggressive too. With experience, it's easier to be more aggressive because one gets a better feel for the ball.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:So we have the Big 4 in the semis tomorrow?

I woudl actually say the big 3. Sure Nadal beat Stan this week but that was a very average display from Stan. nadal needs to prove he can beat those guys regularly before being called a big 4 again.

I agree. Stan would've beaten Nadal had they not played in round one, I think.

I can't believe what a choker he used to be!

Yes. And almost choked again today....but brillantly closed it.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:
How do you see him more aggressive?

The only thing that could help him was better serving and even there, it's a lot of muscle, not placement or timing - so guaranteed to break down in a tight match.

His second serve is better, he also served and volleyed a few times and was successful each. Sure he muscles the ball but generates a decent pace too.

As I showed on the USO14 clip it's clear that both him and Nole are more aggressive too. With experience, it's easier to be more aggressive because one gets a better feel for the ball.

Yes, he is trying to ne aggressive.
The era of pushing is over.

Tennis has moved on.

And it is interesting to see former retrievers trying to transform their game each in their own way.

Just as we were beginning to ask ourselves where will it all end with those attrition slugfests- out of the blue almost things started to change.

Did 25 second rule implementation help there?

I think only Ferrer is still happy to rally for ever - he just does not know any other way.

They look so artificial, and as you suggest even if it happens one day, for me it's hard to imagine them play shotmakng tennis however much their timing improves with time.

noleisthebest wrote:

Yes, he is trying to ne aggressive.
The era of pushing is over..

I wish...not quite. They are just getting better at it....like Nadal was better than Wilander or Bruguera....but same principle.

Djokovic 2-0
Wawrinka 2-1

Final

Djok v Wawrinka:  Djok 2-1.

If Fed makes final - he has a v good chance.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:
Yes, he is trying to ne aggressive.
The era of pushing is over..

I wish...not quite. They are just getting better at it....like Nadal was better than Wilander or Bruguera....but same principle.

But that's the interesting bit - how they get better...Murray started as a classic counterpunching pusher, Nadal as a 4m behind the baseline moonballer.
Then Murray caught up with muscle so it was physical pushing.

Now, everyone's caught up (with fitness) so, they have to be more aggressive and long rallies (pushing) are cut to a minimum compared to AO 12 final for example.

Even Nadal had to move to the baseline in order to survive.

What's next?

Stan has really evolved into the modern aggressive player. he has huge power from both wings, creative, good at the net. He is the anti-roadrunners...

Main problems are:

- his consistency. he played really well yesterday but poorly v Nadal and just OK v Ferrer.
- his hands. Still not as great with soft shots, middle court, returns
- stands too far back.

But on the day could beat anyone, especially on a slow surface like London.

I think he will beat Federer this eve....and might even go on beating Djoko in final.

If tired from last night Federer will win but Fed won't be able to win Sunday.....unless Nadal Djoko have played for 4h.

Tenez wrote:Stan has really evolved into the modern aggressive player. he has huge power from both wings, creative, good at the net. He is the anti-roadrunners...

Yes, and more players like that are beginning to emerge: Anderson...

Tenez wrote:
Main problems are:

- his consistency. he played really well yesterday but poorly v Nadal and just OK v Ferrer.
- his hands. Still not as great with soft shots, middle court, returns
- stands too far back.

Yew, and that's the problem of many: Thiem, Gasquet, Paire...there's only one Rog.

Rubi and Chung look like they won't budge, though.

Tenez wrote:
But on the day could beat anyone, especially on a slow surface like London.

I think he will beat Federer this eve....and might even go on beating Djoko in final.

If tired from last night Federer will win but Fed won't be able to win Sunday.....unless Nadal Djoko have played for 4h.

I hope Fed cleans it all.
I know it will be very hard.

Shame Stan lost that first match against Nadal...

noleisthebest wrote:

Shame Stan lost that first match against Nadal...

Yep...could really have made a difference.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Yes, he is trying to ne aggressive.
The era of pushing is over..

I wish...not quite. They are just getting better at it....like Nadal was better than Wilander or Bruguera....but same principle.

Do you think Nadal could switch his western grip to semi-western?
I reckon he'd be devastating if he could.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Yes, he is trying to ne aggressive.
The era of pushing is over..

I wish...not quite. They are just getting better at it....like Nadal was better than Wilander or Bruguera....but same principle.

Do you think Nadal could switch his western grip to semi-western?
I reckon he'd be devastating if he could.

No idea.....but I don't think it would be a good thing.

Why not?
Imagine if he put all that bicep effort into a flatter struck FH from the base-line.

He'd be hitting it harder than Murray and all the time as he is fitter and better mover.
Worst of all he'd play percentage shots with it.

Anyway, that's my "vision" of Nadal, version 3.0.

noleisthebest wrote:Why not?
Imagine if he put all that bicep effort into a flatter struck FH from the base-line.

He'd be hitting it harder than Murray and all the time as he is fitter and better mover.
Worst of all he'd play percentage shots with it.

Anyway, that's my "vision" of Nadal, version 3.0.

but so many people can do that better than him. His strength was that he had that unique spin....bouncing vertically....so tough because unique on the tour. If he loses that he has to fight with everybody else weapons...and he is certainly not the best at it.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Why not?
Imagine if he put all that bicep effort into a flatter struck FH from the base-line.
He'd be hitting it harder than Murray and all the time as he is fitter and better mover.
Worst of all he'd play percentage shots with it.
Anyway, that's my "vision" of Nadal, version 3.0.

but so many people can do that better than him. His strength was that he had that unique spin....bouncing vertically....so tough because unique on the tour. If he loses that he has to fight with everybody else weapons...and he is certainly not the best at it.

Who?
Not with that size of bicep, stem-cell fitness and stubbornness.
The closest to that is Murray, but he is not such a good mover as Nadal.

15 all...Nadal makes a huge FH.....error.
he knows he has no choice but to try hurting Djoko. before no-one coudl outlast him...so no urgency.....now that's over. he needs to go for it.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Why not?
Imagine if he put all that bicep effort into a flatter struck FH from the base-line.
He'd be hitting it harder than Murray and all the time as he is fitter and better mover.
Worst of all he'd play percentage shots with it.
Anyway, that's my "vision" of Nadal, version 3.0.

but so many people can do that better than him. His strength was that he had that unique spin....bouncing vertically....so tough because unique on the tour. If he loses that he has to fight with everybody else weapons...and he is certainly not the best at it.

Who?
Not with that size of bicep, stem-cell fitness and stubbornness.
The closest to that is Murray, but he is not such a good mover as Nadal.

This point at 0/40 on Nadal serve perfectly described that. Nadal tried to take the ball earlier and as a result his shot lacked spin and pace...allowing Djoko to dictate.

Nadal has very little option cause ultimately he has not got the skills.

Nadal is moving below par though.

The gap is not so much between Rafa and Djoko but between how Rafa and Fed handle Djoko.

This shows the real gap between Nadal and Federer talentwise.