RAFA NADAL FAN CLUB

It seems Nadal fan(s) here have, just like their favourite player, been too modest and humble to start a fan club, so I thought I'd do my good deed for the day and start one for them  

VAMOSSSSSS!!!!

THREAD OF THE YEAR

BAMOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

This thread is gathering dust, JS!!!

Since you are our main source on Nadal enthusiasm here ( apart from Blueclay), how do you see him perform in Basel, Paris and London?

Also, why has he been traditionally so poor in this part of the season?
He never won anything of any meaning...it doesn't look good for someone who is brginning to show GOAT ambitions.

As I've said earlier NITB, I think Nadal struggles a lot in the indoor season due to the lower bounce.

For Nadal the speed of the court is not as important as the bounce... infact if its low bouncing Rafa would probably prefer the court to be faster to give his forehand an extra edge. 

I am relatively optimistic that if healthy Nadal can play well for the remainder of the season, but in Djokovic and Del Potro he has to competitors playing fantastic tennis- so it won't be easy.

I don't think it's the hight of the bounce that's the problem.
O2 has a medium low bounce and Nadal made it to the final there in 2010.
I saw that match live and I can assure you it was not the bounce that caused him to be beaten by Federer with ease.

Going back to  high bounce, don't you think the excuse is a bit lame?
Why can't he play well with the lower bounce like the rest of players?

The answer goes back to the size of that bicep whether you like it or not

You say o2 has a 'medium low' bounce, I say it's just lower than that; anyway we can both agree its pretty low bouncing.

No I don't particularly think its a 'lame excuse'- I genuinely believe Nadal's game is more effective on high bouncing surfaces.

I think this demonstrates my point well:
In 2009 and 2011 Nadal did badly in the WTF.
However in both years, around a week after WTF- he played Davis Cup matches on high bouncing clay.
And guess what? They were probably 2 of the best matches of Nadal's career, crushing Berdych in 2009 while seeing off a hungry Del Potro in 2011.

I like the "no excuse" on the poster. A bit cheeky from Nike.

Former cycling great Greg LeMond says Lance Armstrong would have been "top 30 at best" and "not capable of" winning the Tour de France without the help of doping.”
 
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/10/21/greg-lemond-lance-armstrong-doping/3146479/
 
A PROPOS, I often wonder what Nadal’s ranking history would look like if he had been clean. Would he still have won so much to be considered one of the all time greats?

`Thoughts?

This is what you're looking for SR:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Rafael-Nadal.aspx?t=rh

And this thread is meant to be the 'RAFA NADAL FAN CLUB' sr, if you want to start another debate which we've already have over 10000 times than feel free to do so by starting another thread.

SR wrote:Former cycling great Greg LeMond says Lance Armstrong would have been "top 30 at best" and "not capable of" winning the Tour de France without the help of doping.”
 
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/10/21/greg-lemond-lance-armstrong-doping/3146479/
 
A PROPOS, I often wonder what Nadal’s ranking history would look like if he had been clean. Would he still have won so much to be considered one of the all time greats?

`Thoughts?

And this confirms what I have been saying about Nadal. In fact in tennis talent should play more of a role even....unless you bring the game to such a physical level that "talent" is simply destroyed. This is essentially what Nadal does....hit the ball as hard as he can and for so long that his opponent find it hard to control and apply some skills on it.

One cannot say that without this physical edge Nadal would have won 8, 4 or 1 GS or even be ranked in the top 10 cause his physical power is everything in his game. And the match v an injured Darcis simply proves the point again like we saw quite a few times in the past.

He was injured against Darcis.

Do we really need a repeat of the debate for the 2000th time?

Julia Santamaria wrote:He was injured against Darcis.

Do we really need a repeat of the debate for the 2000th time?

But that's my point. Injured he was still moving faster and hitting harder than Darcis. But Nadal needs to be really top notch physically to impose that physical game. being as fit or as injured as the others is certainly not good enough. We could see Darcis just got away by being more skilled...slices, riskier shots, etc....Nadal is a one trick poney and his trick is the brawn.

I understand you like that kind of game....fine, but you should acknowledge what is Nadal's strength..and it is clearly not talent.

Tenez wrote:But that's my point. Injured he was still moving faster and hitting harder than Darcis.

He was not moving faster... he was unbelievably slow. There were drop-shots that normally he puts away for fun that Nadal could barely reach the service line for...

But Nadal needs to be really top notch physically to impose that physical game. being as fit or as injured as the others is certainly not good enough.

It's ridiculous to expect him to win when he can't run. He also couldn't plant his left foot during the match, so he had to shuffle across and go directly in front of the ball to hit a BH slice... he would never have to do that if he could move properly.

We could see Darcis just got away by being more skilled...slices, riskier shots, etc....

He beat an opponent who couldn't run and couldn't hit a backhand... what do you expect me to do, build a statue for him?

I understand you like that kind of game....fine, but you should acknowledge what is Nadal's strength..and it is clearly not talent.

I wasn't going to post on here as I am not a "Rafa Nadal" fan, but posting a LA article here is a bit uncalled for to JS's thread no?

you are right.....i'll try to move the posts....but still Lemond's comments are interesting and quite relevant for tennis.

@LS, NITB started this thread and she's not a nadal fan. Who says you can't post here?

Tenez wrote:you are right.....i'll try to move the posts....but still Lemond's comments are interesting and quite relevant for tennis.

I believe so. I'm afraid LS missed my point. But never mind. I'll try to start another thread with it and hopefully generate/continue discussion there.

Tenez wrote:One cannot say that without this physical edge Nadal would have won 8, 4 or 1 GS or even be ranked in the top 10 cause his physical power is everything in his game. t.

(As you haven't moved this, I'll post my reply here. Getting a bit messy now, as I've created the other new thread re LeMOnd's comment but our associated subject is nadal.)

I am a bad mod...I don't know how to make the most of those forum features.

Don't get yourself down bud.
Here's a funny video to cheer yourself up  or if not then it will just make me even more happy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vafxnkWndI

Yeah I thought that too, before I realised he said 'bad mod' not 'bad mood'

STOP PRESS!!!

"Nadal cuts finger while slicing bread; injury not serious"
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/11/nadal-cuts-finger-injury-not-serious/49721/#.UnvmAssgGSM

Didn't Tony tell him how to cut bread? a very careless coach!

It's all gotten a bit ridiculous where Nadal is concerned... that every little niggle is being reported.

Well, we already knew Rafa has an ugly slice

JS - When did Nadal start doing his pre service routine thing?

luvsports! wrote:JS - When did Nadal start doing his pre service routine thing?

It started, from what I've seen, at 17 at got gradually worse from then.

He has a mild form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. A catalyst of some sort, normally one of fear, can trigger the condition to play a much bigger role. This could be in Nadal's case playing outside Spain and seeing his family not very often after around 16/17.
Once you get a routine of some sort, and in your mind it is crucial, the harder it is to not do it- this comes into play even more when pressure is high.

Nadal's on court impulses are well documented, but away from the court it plays a part too:
http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ycn-10860295

Hmm this is a fan thread, so perhaps a video is appropriate.

I think Tenez was going on about Nadal and his reflexes a few days ago, may want to watch this video:



Such bad reflexes this guy has   

I was watching the feds nadal FO 05 match and he didn't do it at all. It was interesting, as was his service motion back then. It really didn't have much behind it but it is testament to nadal's baseline game even back then. He consistently beat feds despite not having much of a serve, certainly not nearly as good as it is today.
So in this instance he was about to turn 19.

As I said LS, it has gradually got worse since he was 17.
Even early on you can see he towels himself (even when not sweating), fiddles with his bandada and bounces the ball quite a lot before his serve. His more noticeable routines developed with age.

I've worked in a respite centre, and there I talked to a few people with OCD (although I must admit, their case was far more serious than Nadal's); it seemed to me that there is some sort of paranoia complex- when a compulsion is started it has to be followed, it is easy to have a new one but difficult to get rid of one. Again to make it clear, having seen some severe cases I must say Nadal has a very mild case.

Julia Santamaria wrote:Hmm this is a fan thread, so perhaps a video is appropriate.

I think Tenez was going on about Nadal and his reflexes a few days ago, may want to watch this video:

I know this point very well. What reflexes? There is no reflex there. Just sheer power, to be able to flick the racket like he does in that last shot and pull a winner without his body to be well balanced and moving forward just shows how powerful nadal's arm is. This is the best point to demo Nadal's power. Show me another player able to generate as much power and pace purely on his arm....no technique at all.

Amri you need to learn about tennis.....though I understand why you would find this point amazing...it is but not for the reason you think.

luvsports! wrote:I was watching the feds nadal FO 05 match and he didn't do it at all. It was interesting, as was his service motion back then. It really didn't have much behind it but it is testament to nadal's baseline game even back then. He consistently beat feds despite not having much of a serve, certainly not nearly as good as it is today.
So in this instance he was about to turn 19.

This is what I have been saying for years. Nadal in 2005, 2006 and even up to 2008 was relatively poor but he certainly posed a new physical problem to all players....including Federer. Federer improved a lot since 2005/6 too and was he facing the 2005/6 Nadal he would have no problem with him but Nadal kept improving physically and technically...as fast as everybody else....even faster physically than everybody else.

Tenez wrote:
I know this point very well. What reflexes? There is no reflex there.

It's not only incredible reflexes, but the timing is immaculate. If he stuck his racket even a millisecond either way... that would have gone straight into the net.

Some more thoughts on Nadal's propensity to hit the lines when he needs, I have managed to find the key points in the 2 most important games of Nadal's 2013: at 4-4 in the 3rd set of the USO final.



Try turning this to HD too, so you can see the ball and it's not too fuzzy.

If you want to see the points I am talking about skip to 0:50-
4-4 0-40, Nadal hits a out wide serve and then goes straight away for a winner up the line. The ball is barely an inch away from the line and at full pace- incredibly risky considering the situation.
4-4 30-40, Ace- Nadal's only ace of the match which clips the T. Coincidental timing or does it show he steps up a level when required? I'd say the latter.
4-4 Ad Nadal, attacking point by Nadal finishes off with a smash.

Then 5-4, Djokovic plays two great points to go 30-0 up on his serve;
5-4 0-30, Nadal hits some fantastic defensive shot and shows goods hands with drop shot followed by volley.
5-4 40-30, set point: Nadal hits a return of serve which clips the line, yes it's loopy (so the margin over the net is not a problem)- but can anyone seriously say the margin of getting the ball to dip exactly on the line is not difficult and does not take precision? The return looked like it was going out, then dramatically dipped exactly on the line- however much you hate Nadal that accuracy is difficult to acheive.
A relatively save rally then ensues, before Nadal is the next person to hit the line at pace with the penultimate shot of the rally. The racket head speed from Nadal is immense, as is the accuracy of the forehand on the most crucial point of the match. Djokovic could not get it back into play.

Neither side will back down

luvsports! wrote:Neither side will back down

Do I have a choice? I only say what I see. It is not hazard I like Federer's game and see the amazing talent while I see sheer brutal power in the other player. I don't think I am the only one seeing like that. The difference is probably that I can actually explain the differences better than players' fans.

luvsports! wrote:Neither side will back down

Do I have a choice? Not only do I say what I see, I also provide Youtube video clips in HD to ensure people can verify what I say.
It's not a coincidence I can see player's games for what they are, and don't start crusades against certain player because I don't like them; you won't see my predict any player to go on a slippery slope 4 years in a row, or claim that an amazing bit of reflex (im talking about the nadal federer AO 2009 rally here) is simply power when it's clear the timing is crucial (give a WWE wrestler with huge power and muscles a tennis racket... hit the ball cross court to his forehand at around 70 miles an hour... and then ask him to stick his racket out at the perfect time so the ball whizzes up the line for a return winner... will he manage to do it? No he won't, no he won't.) When the ball is travelling as fast as Federer's forehand was, the immaculate timing (which comes from reflexes) is key.
Ignoring this fact isn't explaining anything, it's lunacy.

Julia Santamaria wrote:Hmm this is a fan thread, so perhaps a video is appropriate.

I think Tenez was going on about Nadal and his reflexes a few days ago, may want to watch this video:



Such bad reflexes this guy has   

You are so funny JS,

Nadal is the symbol of everything opposite of fast tennis: he stands as far away from he net and takes as long time as possible to hit the ball. The opposite of Federer.
That's why he has had no success indoors. You keep telling us how it's because of the "low bounce".
But have you asked yourself why he needs the high bounce?
Why does he stand so far back?
Nadal knows it, the whole world knows it, just you seem not to be able to see it.

But have you asked yourself why he needs the high bounce?

Well it's relatively obvious; the high bounce means his topspin forehand can kick up and push his opponent back on their backhand. Only a few players have shown they can deal with that, Djokovic being one of them.

Why does he stand so far back?

This is pretty obvious too; if you are standing on the baseline on the defence and Fedrerer hits a down the line pacy forehand... even Bolt is not fast enough to reach it in time. However a metre back, and the chances of getting it back into play go up exponentially, if you have the speed and reflexes.

hear hear! NITB

Julia Santamaria wrote:

Why does he stand so far back?

This is pretty obvious too; if you are standing on the baseline on the defence and Fedrerer hits a down the line pacy forehand... even Bolt is not fast enough to reach it in time. However a metre back, and the chances of getting it back into play go up exponentially, if you have the speed and reflexes.

But how do the other players do? Don't you think Nadal would be the one holding firm on the baseline had he got the natural skills to handle it? Don't you think he would rather push the running than run balls down himself?

You clearly don't want to see it....and you are right...it's not a choice. Fans by definition have no choice.

Tenez wrote:

Julia Santamaria wrote:

Why does he stand so far back?

This is pretty obvious too; if you are standing on the baseline on the defence and Fedrerer hits a down the line pacy forehand... even Bolt is not fast enough to reach it in time. However a metre back, and the chances of getting it back into play go up exponentially, if you have the speed and reflexes.

But how do the other players do?

Who can?
Who has the immense speed and reflexes to defend as well as Nadal does? Djokovic perhaps, Murray is getting close. Not many.

Tenez wrote:
Don't you think he would rather push the running than run balls down himself?

He attacks when appropriate- did you see the video of Nadal at 4-4 USO final I posted above. Or did you not 'see' it.
He plays with the style which gives himself the best chance of winning in the current conditions- and given that since 2008 (him turning 23) he has won the most slams- can we really argue with his judgement.

PS you did not answer my question with the WWE wrestler- but of course you ignore all questions you can't answer, then just repeat 'you can't see it' like a religious person defending their holy book.

The bottom line is this:  Nadal has won only 1 (and some say 2?) indoor titles in his whole career. And let's note that by indoor, we mean slow court modern indoor with easier racquets.  If he performs so woefully even with moderate speeds, how on Titan do you think he would cope with even faster, older conditions?  Nadal is a defensive player.  He does not have anywhere near the same skill level as Federer.  Appreciate him for being the ultimate defender (because he is) and one of the greatest competitors (because he is), but not for being the goat, or having the most ability (because that's Laver, Federer, Mcenroe and Borg).  Nadal does not enter that argument.  Not even close.

this is great reflexes right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGHd7Ga3hw

FedererKing wrote:The bottom line is this:  Nadal has won only 1 (and some say 2?) indoor titles in his whole career. And let's note that by indoor, we mean slow court modern indoor with easier racquets. 

The reason is not the pace of the court, as you try and make it seem, his game his adapted for one with a high bounce. Surfaces with low bounce are not 'more valid' than others- I'm afraid this is just a naked attempt to put Nadal down.

If he performs so woefully even with moderate speeds, how on Titan do you think he would cope with even faster, older conditions? 

This is the point I always make, and so far no one can reply:
-how do you know, that if the conditions across the whole year (not just 2 weeks) were different- he wouldn't adapt his game so he was successful on it.
His current game is perfect for the conditions at the time- as I've said since he has turned 23 he has won the most slams from then, and has a fantastic W/L record. Are you honestly saying anyone watching him would say 'oh he should change his style, it's not suitable for these conditions.' No, of course not.
So then logically, if I am to infer from this, why should he change anything he does? And then, how could you possibly prove that he wouldn't be able to adapt if Toni and him decided? He has incredible hand-eye coordination, reflexes, is extremely fast, superb racket head speed, and can generate more RPMs than anyone playing at the moment.
I will say that it's not necessarily possible to prove he'd be the best if he had to adapt, but I will admit I'm not 100% sure either way, unfortunately you're the one taking the 'leap of faith' in assuming it's one and not the other.

FedererKing wrote:Nadal does not enter that argument. Not even close.

Well this statement doesn't surprise me from you, given your passionate dislike for Nadal. You could argue it applies to me the other way... but they difference is I show evidence (even video evidence in this thread) and use logic, while your only evidence was his poor indoor record.

luvsports! wrote:this is great reflexes right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGHd7Ga3hw

On of the best volleys I've seen in the past few years.
Yes, to answer your question, of course