The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Veejay wrote:All 3 pictures are consistent,these are the only 3 pictures available on google,there is no original,I cannot find anything to suggest there is a "before" and "after" photo to support the theory that its been doctored,there is only 1 picture where Nadals physique is exactly the same in all 3 pictures
I have no reason to believe that this picture isnt 100% genuine and you have yet to prove to me to a 100% certainty that it has been doctored
If you have anything to add please do,you may voice your suspicion but until you can actually prove to me that all 3 photos have in fact been doctored,your opinion remains just an opinion based on speculation

Photoshop is not just used for chopping heads and replacing on other torsos. If you think that is the only purpose, you are mistaken. That image is from 2008.
I did not remove muscular striations too much to make it look like he had no muscles. I kept the ripped look.

Veejay wrote:Ok you named some athletes from WIKI I guess,not going to check Ill just take your word for it
But you stilll havenet given me a step by step explanation why you believe blood oxygenation and Autologous blood enrichment is better for tennis players then using steroids?
Come on Laverfan,its been a couple comments now,if youre not going to give me step by step guide as to why you believe these drugs are better for tennis players then steroids then its proof that you cant.If you could have you would have done so by now

Its overall effect is to increase endurance and, in athletics, it is used mainly by long distance-runners.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/front_page/4657010.stm

http://www.examiner.com/article/steroids-and-blood-doping-by-athletes-focus-on-blood-growth-factor-injections

I am surprised that your experiences have not provided you a step-by-step guide, yet. Are you expecting medical journals on a forum?

Veejay wrote:And by this I dont mean answering by asking more questions,or one sentenced responses,I want a detailed report.

Please do soem research on your own. See my previous comment.

Veejay wrote:"The point I am trying to make is that musculature is a derivative of repetitive nature of work that a person does."

We are arguing about the size of a specific bicep that you believe cannot be achieved by simply hitting a tennis ball. The example of Kennewick man was frrom 9500 years ago, when Fuentes/Morales/Garcia Moral did not exist. You missed the entire line of argument.

Veejay wrote:What about Changs legs? I recall in several responses to you,I was specifically talking about cardio stripping your torso,I have never spoken about legs.Why?

Muscles can be built by just regular exercise, without any drugs. Genetics plays a very significant role in this regard, whether you are a natural athlete or not.

laverfan wrote:

Muscles can be built by just regular exercise, without any drugs. Genetics plays a very significant role in this regard, whether you are a natural athlete or not.

That's true, but it's hard for those who claim they don't push weights. You can build calves by cycling, tone legs by running, but I don't see how you can do anything about that left bicep on the treadmill....one look at mine and, no way Jose (thank God!)

legendkillar wrote:

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:This is one of the 1000s of examples of how useless and irrelevant post LF keeps posting. Some will accuse me of attacking her. Trust me, I don't intend to do it. I hate to be having to bring it out. But this is not baseless:

Veejay posts:

Veejay wrote:All images can be modified Laverfan,have you heard of photoshop?
Even the ones you use can/could have been be photoshopped or edited and most likely would have been airbrushed for publication
Telling me that you dont trust images that can be doctored doesnt give me an answer as to why you believe the images are doctored
Anyone can dispute or claim anything but how can you expect me to believe that you think the image is doctored if you cannot even give me 1 plausible reason why
You havent said to me "I believe the image is doctored for the following reasons" and then give me your reasons
You just said you dont trust images that have been doctored,if you cant tell me why you believe it is doctored then how the hell can you believe the images is doctored to begin with?
Why does your suspicion not apply to pictures you use? Its entirely plausible that the pictures have been photoshopped so why dont you trust them either?
Also what qualifies you to conclude which pictures have been doctored and which ones hasnt
What do you base your opinion on?
Does the picture first have to suit your agenda before you make your conclusion or do you actually use photoshop techniques to prove why you believe it to have been doctored?

The above post asks many questions. Many question. But none of them have been answered. Instead what is posted is this:

laverfan wrote:All digital images can be doctored to suit purposes. We are no longer in the age of Silver Nitrate. The reasons behind image doctoring are

1. defame someone - (for example, nude bodies with known faces)
2. blackmail someone - same as above.
3. make someone look better - air-brushing, blemish-removal, etc.
4. accuse someone - (different from 2. like compromising pictures)
5. threaten someone - (different than 2)

Did anyone asked about the reasons why will someone doctor an image? NO
Did anyone say we are living in the age of Silver Nitrate? NO

So why this useless irrelevant piece of information needed when something totally different was asked. Now, laverfan does appear to be a good knowledgeable poster, but its becoming clearer that she has difficulty in understanding things. You will spin up the whole world but still missing the exact point.

Right because you seem to be hard of interpretation allow me to highlight some things which are obvious.

Veejay posts:

Anyone can dispute or claim anything but how can you expect me to believe that you think the image is doctored if you cannot even give me 1 plausible reason why
You havent said to me "I believe the image is doctored for the following reasons" and then give me your reasons

To which LF posts:

The reasons behind image doctoring are

1. defame someone - (for example, nude bodies with known faces)
2. blackmail someone - same as above.
3. make someone look better - air-brushing, blemish-removal, etc.
4. accuse someone - (different from 2. like compromising pictures)
5. threaten someone - (different than 2)

So Veejay asks the same question in a different context

Also what qualifies you to conclude which pictures have been doctored and which ones hasnt
What do you base your opinion on?
Does the picture first have to suit your agenda before you make your conclusion or do you actually use photoshop techniques to prove why you believe it to have been doctored?

LF posted above her suspicions and also quoted actually seeing Nadal in the flesh at matches she has attended.

So are we going to dodge her points with a valid argument or keep dismissing it and asking the same question over and over which is proving to be annoying and retarded to read to be honest.

Laverfan gives motive not proof,big difference
While her motive theory is sound,it doesnt prove that the pictures she is accusing of being doctored are actually doctored
The fact that there are plausible reasons why someone would want to doctor a picture, doesnt prove that the pictures in question has in fact been doctored
To prove a picture has been doctored,you have to examine the picture and then point out the evidence that would support the your theory of how the picture went from "before" to "after"
Another way of proving it would be to provide the "before" picture but seeing that no one has,the pictures in question are 100% genuine and the original picture until proven otherwise
I have also seen Nadal in the flesh,but what difference does that make?
I have already given a plausible explanation for his inconsistent weight
Sometimes he truely looks exactly the way Laverfans claims he does in the flesh,other times he looks more like the picture I posted
Its also a 2 ways street,Laverfan can only go by on what her eyes tell her,and the same applies for me,I cant go by on what her eyes tell me and she cant go by on what my eyes tell her,so a fair way to discuss this would be to use the pictures
The burden of proof lies with Laverfan as he/she is making the accusations that the pictures have been doctored,I have not made any accusations that any pictures have been doctored

Veejay wrote:Laverfan gives motive but not proof
Her motive theory is entirely plausible,but thats not whats being discussed or asked

SO what is being discussed and asked?

Veejay wrote:I think this debate is way out of Laverfans league,he/she seems completely out of depth.The only sense I can make of it is that he/she is trying to save face,but the more Laverfan insists on arguing whatever it is he/she is arguing,the more damage is done to his/her credibility

What I can see is fear and paranoia and suspicions (unfounded) in many cases with bizarre hypotheses of 'silent bans', despite a process very well documented in ITF rules 14.x being brought up, to suit an agenda of course.

Richard Ings even admits the Nadrolone case was a fiasco from an ATP perspective. The scientists failed to account for ambient temperatures on the courts and how it impacts the production of 'natural' body chemicals. Setting up a Nadrolone threshold of 2ng/ml (Men) and 5ng/ml (Women) at Winter Olympics in Nagano, which does not account for the heat of Acapulco.

He even admits that no doping program can catch all dopers, especially determined dopers. There are no 40+ cases of Nadrolone. There are 8, and all were exonerated and publicly named.

BTW, as Ings says, samples are frozen for 8 years in Cologne and Montreal, with proper accounting and controls. The current doper not only has to beat the testers once, but many times, if so required.

The less I say about THASP, the better. Richard Ings's interview may be the only saving grace for that website.

PS: I understand Korda's reading was 100 ng/ml. Very strange that he was not aware of it before he started the regimen.

noleisthebest wrote:

laverfan wrote:

Muscles can be built by just regular exercise, without any drugs. Genetics plays a very significant role in this regard, whether you are a natural athlete or not.

That's true, but it's hard for those who claim they don't push weights. You can build calves by cycling, tone legs by running, but I don't see how you can do anything about that left bicep on the treadmill....one look at mine and, no way Jose (thank God!)

They also claim that they do not use any drugs. As pointed to VeeJay, and again here, this selective fact manipulation to suit an agenda is not what I expect the logic of tribe A and B to come up with as an argument to tarnish a player.

I would suggest reading the Kennewick-man link. His day-to-day activities were sufficient without any additional weight training.

laverfan wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

laverfan wrote:

Muscles can be built by just regular exercise, without any drugs. Genetics plays a very significant role in this regard, whether you are a natural athlete or not.

That's true, but it's hard for those who claim they don't push weights. You can build calves by cycling, tone legs by running, but I don't see how you can do anything about that left bicep on the treadmill....one look at mine and, no way Jose (thank God!)

They also claim that they do not use any drugs. As pointed to VeeJay, and again here, this selective fact manipulation to suit an agenda is not what I expect the logic of tribe A and B to come up with as an argument to tarnish a player.

I would suggest reading the Kennewick-man link. His day-to-day activities were sufficient without any additional weight training.

just googled Kenewick-man...first sentence was enough for a one-word verdict: nonsense!
Now back to that self-inflating left bicep

noleisthebest wrote:
just googled Kenewick-man...first sentence was enough for a one-word verdict: nonsense!
Now back to that self-inflating left bicep

Keep staring at that left bicep, and there may yet be enlightenment.

Amritia3ee wrote:Interesting we have a 'TRuffin' and a 'TimRuffin' posting on this forum;
https://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/memberlist.

Who is who?

both me-- I couldn't sign on with the other id for some reason. after multiple trys I just made a new one.. nothing sinister about it.

truffin1 wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:Interesting we have a 'TRuffin' and a 'TimRuffin' posting on this forum;
https://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/memberlist.

Who is who?

both me-- I couldn't sign on with the other id for some reason. after multiple trys I just made a new one.. nothing sinister about it.

OK no worries

btw I'm a bit confused, did you win junior Wimbledon? Veejay said you did earlier.

legendkillar wrote:And also will someone answer why it is impossible for Nadal to be Jetsking or will you dodge it with another question?

After all you don't want to sound like LF now do you

Have you ever jetskid? If you have you know the immense pressure and pounding it creates on your knees.. From the pictures you can even see Nadal standing on the ski as it hit waves. I wasn't just in advertising. I worked with promotion in the boxing world for years and worked with some of the greatest athletes. I spent time with them in camp during training,etc. Patella Tendon tears, soft tissue issues are extremely common and I was around many an athlete with it. The pain any type of torque, pressure, jarring on the knees,leg is excruciating.. forget about medical training- common sense tells you someone with this issue is not doing something so extreme on the body as jetsking without being in pain....... If he did it once, he wouldn't do it again from the pain unless he is a sadomachocist... Heck, Ali had a tendon tear after a fight in Japan and was in a soft cast for 6 months and laid around and got fat..He never phyiscally could move like before again.

Yet, there are pictures all over the place of Nadal with different friends, different bathing suits (meaning different occasions) doing these activities while on his vacation. People keep bringing up golf...sure he could walk the course with a limp, but agian- the golf swing actually uses the tendons/knees in a major way-- it would just be downright painful.

Lets get away from the snarky- ur not a doctor stuff and the picking at words here and there. Just think about it with an open mind........ Does it seem plausible to you that a guy with inflammed soft tissue injuries to his knees, a torn patella tendon would be doing fairly extreme activities like jet sking for fun? I don't think he would is my answer. I also am not saying it means he's doped, banned, or whatever... just that what they are telling us is the problem is not what the problem is.

Amritia3ee wrote:

truffin1 wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:Interesting we have a 'TRuffin' and a 'TimRuffin' posting on this forum;
https://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/memberlist.

Who is who?

both me-- I couldn't sign on with the other id for some reason. after multiple trys I just made a new one.. nothing sinister about it.

OK no worries

btw I'm a bit confused, did you win junior Wimbledon? Veejay said you did earlier.

lol... gosh I am getting a bogus reputation all of a sudden.. VJ was kidding becasue my "nickname" on here is taken from a disliked poster on Bleacher report as a joke.. This Tim Ruffin used to write articles and post all the time about his hatred for Federer and claiming Federer was overrated and that he knew so becasue he was a former player, coach,etc... He was exposed as a fraud and banned, but he keeps coming back.. we're just playign around with the name :-) I'm not him, just using his name as an inside joke with vj.

truffin1 wrote: I'm not him, just using his name as an inside joke with vj.

OK, I understand now

I have done both jet-skiing and golf (although not regularly), and I can't remember it putting any real extra pressure on my knee.

"Photoshop is not just used for chopping heads and replacing on other torsos. If you think that is the only purpose, you are mistaken. That image is from 2008.
I did not remove muscular striations too much to make it look like he had no muscles. I kept the ripped look."

I know that Laverfan,its a pretty complex program that can do one hell of a lot if you know how to use it
The point I was trying to make is that when people use the words "photoshop" its widely associated with replacing your head shot with a better physique that you dont have,or somehow improving your physical appearance into a more desirable and sexy image
You claimed that the picture is doctored because of the muscular physique,I said I dont see any evidence to suggest that Nadals head shot is placed on a physique he doesnt have.Nor do I see any evidence of tampering with the part of his physique,I dont see anything that raises enough suspicion to believe that that picture was doctored
Youre the one making the accusations so apart from claiming that it was taken in 08,what are you actually basing these accusations on? Im not asking for motive,I am asking for proof.What are your suspicions based on.Usually anyone who claims they believe a picture has been photoshoped or doctored would instantly point out the reasons why,yet so far you havent even given me 1
If you cannot even give me one legitimate reason then I have believe your suspicion is purely based on your personal agenda,its not objective whatsoever

"Its overall effect is to increase endurance and, in athletics, it is used mainly by long distance-runners."

Thats not a step by step guide into why you believe blood oxygenation and Autologous blood enrichment is better for tennis players then using steroids
Its a vague response based on the common knowledge that its a pretty popular drug used by cyclists for endurance.Apart from that you havent made a case for your claims its better then steroids for tennis player.Earlier on you were making fun of me when I compared tennis to running marathons,now youre saying EPO etc is used by long distance runners so therefore it will be good or better then steroids for tennis players.It was also your stance that there was a clear difference between the short bursts of running done in tennis and that of long distance running which is done at a steady consistent pace,but now youre claiming it will be good for tennis players because long distance runners use it for endurance. As you can see your entire arguemnt is filled with holes
I said tennis is very much an endurance sport,you laughed it off by calculating miles run in BO5 matches,so explain to me when you suddenly changed your stance?
You even claimed a tennis players physique should be like a combination of a sprinter and a body builder but yet you think they should be using endurance PED's rather then steroids
How will a body builder build a body on EPO and why would a sprinter use endurance PED's.You think a muscular physique is needed otherwise why say bodybuilders? But hen yoy contradict yourself by dismissing steriods which would contain growth hormones and replacing it with EPO so you can go and run your muscle tone away
The links you gave me explains what EPO and Autologous blood enrichment is but it doesnt give me a step by step reason why its better then using steroids,the second link clearly sets out to prove that there are alternative ways to doping then just to shoot up

"I am surprised that your experiences have not provided you a step-by-step guide, yet. Are you expecting medical journals on a forum? "

Lets first get one thing straight here Laverfan,I was not the one who claimed that blood oxygenation and Autologous blood enrichment is better for tennis players then using steroids,you did.You made a claim which you have yet to prove, I have asked you several times for a plausible explanation why you say so.All you have given me is endurance.
Well steroids can help you improve your endurance too
The fact that you completely dismiss both the positives and the negatives in using either type of PED to form your opinion proves how out of depth you are in this debate
I have never used EPO before,I have however worked with people who have used it,but I have never taken it myself.This in my opinion makes it impossible for me to fairly compare the drug,the positives and the negatives with steriods which I have taken and then come to a conclusion that one is better then the other or that more will be gained out of one type of PED rather then another.I wont even entertain the idea to try and use my knowledge and observation of someone else who is on it and compare it with my personal experience of steroids.I feel the only fair way to make an objective conclusion would be to base it on my personal experience of having used both types of PED's,seeing that I havent used EPO I cant conclude anything.I cant give anyone a step by step guide through which type of PED will be better to use
I am also not a pro tennis player,Im not in a position to know exactly what I ( personally) would benefit more from,as I dont know what my weaknesses would be
I would only know that if I was a pro tennis player,so I cant,like you say,one PED is better for tennis then another.Both types of PED's has pros that would benefit tennis players,I guess which one would be better for a tennis player would be down to what youre specifically looking to get out using PED's

"Muscles can be built by just regular exercise, without any drugs. Genetics plays a very significant role in this regard, whether you are a natural athlete or not.

How many times do I have to say that the exercise you do will develop a physique that consistent with the type of exercise you do.It is entirely plausible to build muscles through regular exercise and weight training without drugs,as long as the balance with doing cardio is correct,its entirely plusible
But we were specifically talking about one athlete who has admitted to doing all his training on court and none in the gym.Even if Nadal wasnt on drugs,you cannot build a muscular physique without weight training,what makes this possibility even less likely is no weight training and lots of cardio
Going back to the picture which started this debate,theres no way you could ever develop a physique like that without the drugs.I swear it to be the drugs,the whole drugs and nothing but the drugs...

legendkillar wrote:

So can you answer the question you conveniently dodge? Or does your 'knowledge' prevent that and that of truffin prevent that? I have worked in the NHS for 14 years and worked with medical professionals, but I won't come out with statements I cannot add substance or proof of knowledge to. Like I stated I am not medically qualified, but I hold a pharmacy qualification and a buying qualification. So you won't hear me making just statements like it is impossible for Nadal to do things without anything to back it up.

Good if you are sure about your limited knowledge that you won't come out and say something. But it doesn't mean everyone else's knowledge is as limited as yours.

legendkillar wrote:
You claim there is substance to them existing though the author of your article based them on them being made public knowledge. As you pointed out and this is a big word now. the ATP/ITF COULD place the player under provisional suspension. But you and the author have no proof that this would've been the actions they carried out. Kendrick placed himself under provisional suspension. So did the ATP/ITF suspend him prior to the ban? No. Korda continued to play which pretty much fucks up his whole article.

1. Do you have any proof that ITF/ATP can't place a player on a provisional suspension? Give me the proof they just can't do it. Give me the proof that they couldn't put Kendrick under any suspension. People asking me for proof must have their own proofs ready.

2. What proof do you have have to say that Kendrick volunteered to be placed under suspension. Give me the proof. You are calling this article fucked up and yet you want to use its presented data now to suite your argument. Now go get your proof. And please don't bring any fucked up article to back you up.

3. Kendrick was no idiot to volunteer himself to be suspended if there was no way ITF/ATP could have banned him.

4. I already said, there are clauses in rules/laws. Suspects could be caught and put behind bars, or at times no warrant can be issued despite him being a suspect. Once caught he may get bail, but a bail plea can also be rejected on certain circumstances. There are many things to be considered. Who knows in detail what happened with Kodra who was able to play despite him being tested positive. Maybe the result was non conclusive enough and it could be very different from Kendrick's case. Maybe Kendrick just had no choice left. Every case is a different one with different circumstances. Understand the difference.

legendkillar wrote: So you expect me to believe then Nadal pulled out a massive bit of integrity to himself and the game of tennis and placed himself on a provisional suspension?

Yes you absolutely believe Kendrick can volunteered for a suspension. But its completely impossible that Nadal too did it. Bah! Or else it might be possible he didn't volunteer but is actually serving a suspension given by ATP/ITF. I think ATP/ITF can put a provisional suspension on a player. You think they can't. Now bring your proof that they can't.

Now thats some logic.

Amritia3ee wrote:I have done both jet-skiing and golf (although not regularly), and I can't remember it putting any real extra pressure on my knee.

okay.. well that is your experience and I won't argue with it. I would just suggest that obviously those activities are fun and enjoyable and if you don't have somethign in your body that would react to the pounding or tourque that it might not seem like there is anythign to it.. but you have done so without a severe knee injury or torn tendon so without feeling what those injuries would create. It's like saying, I've lifted 10 pounds before and it was no pressure on my arm, but try doing that with a torn triceps... different story.

I guess people just have to decide for themselves whether people can jet ski and golf for enjoyment with torn patella tendons.

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:Laverfan gives motive but not proof
Her motive theory is entirely plausible,but thats not whats being discussed or asked

SO what is being discussed and asked?

Veejay wrote:I think this debate is way out of Laverfans league,he/she seems completely out of depth.The only sense I can make of it is that he/she is trying to save face,but the more Laverfan insists on arguing whatever it is he/she is arguing,the more damage is done to his/her credibility

What I can see is fear and paranoia and suspicions (unfounded) in many cases with bizarre hypotheses of 'silent bans', despite a process very well documented in ITF rules 14.x being brought up, to suit an agenda of course.

Richard Ings even admits the Nadrolone case was a fiasco from an ATP perspective. The scientists failed to account for ambient temperatures on the courts and how it impacts the production of 'natural' body chemicals. Setting up a Nadrolone threshold of 2ng/ml (Men) and 5ng/ml (Women) at Winter Olympics in Nagano, which does not account for the heat of Acapulco.

He even admits that no doping program can catch all dopers, especially determined dopers. There are no 40+ cases of Nadrolone. There are 8, and all were exonerated and publicly named.

BTW, as Ings says, samples are frozen for 8 years in Cologne and Montreal, with proper accounting and controls. The current doper not only has to beat the testers once, but many times, if so required.

The less I say about THASP, the better. Richard Ings's interview may be the only saving grace for that website.

PS: I understand Korda's reading was 100 ng/ml. Very strange that he was not aware of it before he started the regimen.

Im asking for proof Laverfan,you made the accusations that the images were doctored,the burden of proof lies with you
What are you trying to say by quoting mr Igns that the Nandrolone was supposedly a fiasco?Are you trying to imply that that means doping doesnt exist in tennis or that tennis players wont take steroids?
If the latter is what youre implying I disagree for the simple fact that you take PED''s to help strengthen your weaknesses .ie you take a particular drug for a particular reason
How many times have I told you before that where there is a will there is a way,only way you'll stop a doper is to catch them,as long as they are getting away with it they will continue to dope
Did you actually specifically ask Richard Ings?
Richard was quite keen to "set me straight" when I voiced my suspicion why so few athletes are caught doping and questioned if a plausible possibility for a cover up exists...
Next thing I knew I was told he had worked with all the Nandrolone cases and to date there was in the region of 40 cases ( for Nandrolone case alone) left me as shocked as your are Laverfan.I wont at all be surprised if he has changed his story since then,like you he tends to be a bit all over the place.Anyway I never said what he claimed was 100% fact,I dont need mr Igns to prove steroids are used by certain players.I think I have made quite a credible case for Nadal,based on facts rather then fiction

Interesting read by Magnus Norman,I personally give this account more credibility then mr Igns
It was first written in Swedish (http://www.svd.se/sportspel/nyheter/sa-morkade-tennisen-sex-dopingfall_460641.svd) and then translated into English:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/71231087/Tennis-Off-The-Record

How many times did Marion Jones pass drugs tests before she was finally caught,they are claiming well over a 100 on THASP
Technology evolves,there will always be designer drugs that are ahead of the game,but its good to know that samples are supposedly kept for 8 years.This doesnt however scare anyone away from doping and only time will tell if proper accounting and controlling is done
I dont find it surprising how you fid "Richard Ings's interview may be the only saving grace for that website."
You seem to give anything that suits our agenda much credence and completly dismiss any possibility of something that doesnt suit your genda but yet youre moto is "objectivity"
Let me ask you this Laverfan,taking into consideration everything we have discussed are you open to the possibility that Nadal could have or is doping or do you still completely rule the possibility out?

Amritia3ee wrote:I have done both jet-skiing and golf (although not regularly), and I can't remember it putting any real extra pressure on my knee.

Its not about putting pressure on your knee,with an injury like that any movement will result in discomfort or pain.Every time you move you'll feel your knee

Veejay wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:I have done both jet-skiing and golf (although not regularly), and I can't remember it putting any real extra pressure on my knee.

Its not about putting pressure on your knee,with an injury like that any movement will result in discomfort or pain.Every time you move you'll feel your knee

The other thing (and I don't say this with medical certainty or that it's 100% of the time) but every patella injury I have ever been around-- the 1st few weeks or more , the leg was kept straight or rigid... in a walking cast or brace. even without a brace, I've never seen someone with a patella tear sit with a bended knee for very long or doing it as an enjoyable experiience. Keeping the leg straigh and rigid is the 1st part of healing it.... sorry,, sititng on a jet ski running over waves, hitting the wake- I just don't see how someone could do that and enjoy it... It's the very thing that would cause extreme pain with a patella injury...

truffin1 wrote:

Veejay wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:I have done both jet-skiing and golf (although not regularly), and I can't remember it putting any real extra pressure on my knee.

Its not about putting pressure on your knee,with an injury like that any movement will result in discomfort or pain.Every time you move you'll feel your knee

The other thing (and I don't say this with medical certainty or that it's 100% of the time) but every patella injury I have ever been around-- the 1st few weeks or more , the leg was kept straight or rigid... in a walking cast or brace. even without a brace, I've never seen someone with a patella tear sit with a bended knee for very long or doing it as an enjoyable experiience. Keeping the leg straigh and rigid is the 1st part of healing it.... sorry,, sititng on a jet ski running over waves, hitting the wake- I just don't see how someone could do that and enjoy it... It's the very thing that would cause extreme pain with a patella injury...

I said this before too,in most cases a brace or cast is needed
For the injury to heal your leg needs to remain flexed/straight for several weeks
Imagine if he had never lost to Rosol,he most likely would have kept playing all the way to the final on a torn patella and possibly even win
That would deserve a superhero costume

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

So can you answer the question you conveniently dodge? Or does your 'knowledge' prevent that and that of truffin prevent that? I have worked in the NHS for 14 years and worked with medical professionals, but I won't come out with statements I cannot add substance or proof of knowledge to. Like I stated I am not medically qualified, but I hold a pharmacy qualification and a buying qualification. So you won't hear me making just statements like it is impossible for Nadal to do things without anything to back it up.

Good if you are sure about your limited knowledge that you won't come out and say something. But it doesn't mean everyone else's knowledge is as limited as yours.

Still you dodge the question. Quite common of you to do.

legendkillar wrote:
You claim there is substance to them existing though the author of your article based them on them being made public knowledge. As you pointed out and this is a big word now. the ATP/ITF COULD place the player under provisional suspension. But you and the author have no proof that this would've been the actions they carried out. Kendrick placed himself under provisional suspension. So did the ATP/ITF suspend him prior to the ban? No. Korda continued to play which pretty much fucks up his whole article.

1. Do you have any proof that ITF/ATP can't place a player on a provisional suspension? Give me the proof they just can't do it. Give me the proof that they couldn't put Kendrick under any suspension. People asking me for proof must have their own proofs ready.

2. What proof do you have have to say that Kendrick volunteered to be placed under suspension. Give me the proof. You are calling this article fucked up and yet you want to use its presented data now to suite your argument. Now go get your proof. And please don't bring any fucked up article to back you up.

3. Kendrick was no idiot to volunteer himself to be suspended if there was no way ITF/ATP could have banned him.

4. I already said, there are clauses in rules/laws. Suspects could be caught and put behind bars, or at times no warrant can be issued despite him being a suspect. Once caught he may get bail, but a bail plea can also be rejected on certain circumstances. There are many things to be considered. Who knows in detail what happened with Kodra who was able to play despite him being tested positive. Maybe the result was non conclusive enough and it could be very different from Kendrick's case. Maybe Kendrick just had no choice left. Every case is a different one with different circumstances. Understand the difference.

To quote yourself

So from June 17, 2011 - July 29, 2011. So it was 1 month and 12 days. He was under provisional suspension and nothing was made public. If he was missing any tournament, he could easily have declared a fake injury. Had Kendrick won his case, this missing case would have all appeared due to an injury. I have checked ATP's site and he didn't play anything in 2011 during June 17 - July 29. I don't know what reason did he declare for his absence. But moreover who cares about why such a low ranked player is missing a tournament, I don't think many would even take notice of his absence.


Also "ITF documents indicate he volunteered to be placed on a provisional suspension.."


brilliant. Theres the proof from yourself

I am not questioning that the ITP/ATP can't suspend. I merely stated there was nothing to suggest they would've placed Kendrick on a 'provisional ban' Korda wasn't.

legendkillar wrote: So you expect me to believe then Nadal pulled out a massive bit of integrity to himself and the game of tennis and placed himself on a provisional suspension?

Yes you absolutely believe Kendrick can volunteered for a suspension. But its completely impossible that Nadal too did it. Bah! Or else it might be possible he didn't volunteer but is actually serving a suspension given by ATP/ITF. I think ATP/ITF can put a provisional suspension on a player. You think they can't. Now bring your proof that they can't.

Now thats some logic.

So does that mean Nadal is now honest joe bloggs.

Superb

Matt di canio - I know for a fact that doping is in every sport.

"Peddlers - Cycling's Dirty Truth." Mark Chapman.

Just so stunning its untrue absolutely speechless.

luvsports! wrote:Matt di canio - I know for a fact that doping is in every sport.

"Peddlers - Cycling's Dirty Truth." Mark Chapman.

Just so stunning its untrue absolutely speechless.

It is in every sport.. I've been around Boxers, basketball, baseball players- many try for any edge.. and, as I said, you can be the greatest nicest guy in the world and not blink about taking a banned substance. People can justify anything if it gets them to a goal. I know beloved athletes, wonderful guys that I would let marry my daughter, who "cheated" within the sport. How many great people "cheat" on their taxes?lol... Humans are just thta way.

truffin1 wrote:

legendkillar wrote:And also will someone answer why it is impossible for Nadal to be Jetsking or will you dodge it with another question?

After all you don't want to sound like LF now do you

Have you ever jetskid? If you have you know the immense pressure and pounding it creates on your knees..

I can certify that. I jet skied from South Beach to the bay where you have all those billionaire houses in one of our business trip and I never suffered as much. In fact I did not realise until I jumped off that I coudl not stand on my legs. I had to sit for 15 mn before being able to stand up and my legs hurt for a further month (no kidding)...

...However that's because the see was a bit rough and we were going pretty fast while standing up. Haven't jet skis got sits and with a relatively calm see, the knees woudl not be exposed....I suppose.

Tenez wrote:

...However that's because the see was a bit rough and we were going pretty fast while standing up. Haven't jet skis got sits and with a relatively calm see, the knees woudl not be exposed....I suppose.

Coooo, that's sounds right like a scene out of a James Bond film

Tenez wrote:

truffin1 wrote:

legendkillar wrote:And also will someone answer why it is impossible for Nadal to be Jetsking or will you dodge it with another question?

After all you don't want to sound like LF now do you

Have you ever jetskid? If you have you know the immense pressure and pounding it creates on your knees..

I can certify that. I jet skied from South Beach to the bay where you have all those billionaire houses in one of our business trip and I never suffered as much. In fact I did not realise until I jumped off that I coudl not stand on my legs. I had to sit for 15 mn before being able to stand up and my legs hurt for a further month (no kidding)...

...However that's because the see was a bit rough and we were going pretty fast while standing up. Haven't jet skis got sits and with a relatively calm see, the knees woudl not be exposed....I suppose.

I don't know from the pictures how rough the sea was but it was wavy..

the very nature of a patella injury is that it hurts to bend.. that's when it would be most inflamed... Sitting with your leg bent isn't good at all. Also, the paparazzi pictures of Nadal on that vacation show him standinng on the ski as he rides it which would create a pounding, jumping the wake,etc... It's just strange is the bottom line.. He's doing things that the injury they say he has would create a very painful experience... for fun......

Geriatrics' confession time:

Here's my knee story....
For some reason, whatever exercise I do, whether I run or cycle, I tend to overload the left leg just a tad bit more and I feel it after more strenuous workouts.
In the past when I used to run more, it manifested itself through mild shinsplints and a bit of knee pain, but nothing tendonal, as that pain goes away after a few days/weeks rest depending on how much you stressed/ignored the inflammation.
Now, the funny thing with running or any exercising or sport, it's the sweetest when you are injured for some reason: you just can't help yourself, you know the pain will go away (and that's even without any painkillers) after 10 minutes, so long as you don't overload it.
So I was being silly like that and one day I got out of the car and could barely move my left leg because the pain in the knee was excruciating.
I was really, really scared, because i could not make a single step, the tiniest bend felt like a knife/needle in the knee.
I thought if I didn't move for a minute it would go away, but it didn't. so I sat down for ages and then got myself home and was able to walk gently the same day.
The same thing happened the next day and never again.
I have no idea what happened to the knee, but I remembered it when Nadal had his episode in the hotel lobby chair in Australia.
If his knee is shot to bits, which it probably is, I wouldn't be surprised he's had that experience.
But I don't think it's the knee problem that's kept him from tennis since that loss to Rosol. It has been way too long for any knee injury, esp, the non-surgical kind

legendkillar wrote:
Still you dodge the question. Quite common of you to do.

Naah. I don't dodge any question. I might have missed it, but don't dodge it. Can you repeat you question, I'll answer it.

legendkillar wrote:

To quote yourself

So from June 17, 2011 - July 29, 2011. So it was 1 month and 12 days. He was under provisional suspension and nothing was made public. If he was missing any tournament, he could easily have declared a fake injury. Had Kendrick won his case, this missing case would have all appeared due to an injury. I have checked ATP's site and he didn't play anything in 2011 during June 17 - July 29. I don't know what reason did he declare for his absence. But moreover who cares about why such a low ranked player is missing a tournament, I don't think many would even take notice of his absence.


Also "ITF documents indicate he volunteered to be placed on a provisional suspension.."


brilliant. Theres the proof from yourself

This is really hilarious. I didn't expect you would write this when I already told you.

You call this article fucked up. You call the author clueless. You want to trash my points. And what you you have to back you up? Nothing but quotes from this very article you called fucked up. You are using my own statement as your proof. ha ha funny. You end up proving my case and you don't even get what you are doing. . If my words are your proof, then you have nothing at hand to counter me.

Go get your own proof LK, which is not from a fucked up article as this. . Lets see what they are.

legendkillar wrote: I am not questioning that the ITP/ATP can't suspend. I merely stated there was nothing to suggest they would've placed Kendrick on a 'provisional ban' Korda wasn't.

There was if you wanted to see.

1. Is there something called provisional suspension in which a player is barred from playing but the news is not disclosed to public? Yes
2. Can ATP/ITF place a player on provisional suspension? Yes. Looks like you agree to it as you said. But as I said many times, like all rules it depends on factors and the judgement can vary.
3. Can a player volunteer to give up to the proceedings and voluntarily accept whatever is given? Yes. The article says Kendrick volunteered for a provisional ban. But this doesn't mean if he hadn't, there was no way he couldn't still be banned. Why would a player in his sane mind would volunteer for a suspension if he had nothing to fear? Maybe his lawyers suggested it would be better if he himself volunteered than trying to counter the charges or the provisional ban which he might get put into. Perhaps he volunteered to avoid stricter punishment. Perhaps he volunteered to make it a bit easy on himself as there was no choice.

Is it impossible ? If someone like LA can give up and accept not to counter the charges he was facing, its not impossible that someone relatively unknown like Kendrick won't give in. Is it so uncommon? No.

4. Kodra wasn't barred, doesn't mean Nadal also can't be and then is surely injured. If you are saying you are not questioning if ATP/ITF can put a player on provisional suspension then why is it impossible for you to believe that Nadal is serving one such ban. You are countering yourself?? How many times will I have to tell you every case is different and it doesn't work alike. Kodra's case may not be strong enough to put him in suspension. But possible Nadal's case is.

5. Nadal talks about injury are so inconsistent, not only people like us, even his peers are talking openly about it. Wasn't it that Federer was surprised at Nadal's prolonged absence. Of course I don't expect him to be anything but diplomatic in his interviews, but he too didn't find it very convincing.

6. You have to have a blind faith in Nadal if you don't see any inconsistencies in those talks. If you see inconsistencies, there are reasons to doubt. No proof, but definitely reasons.

truffin1 wrote:the very nature of a patella injury is that it hurts to bend.. that's when it would be most inflamed... Sitting with your leg bent isn't good at all. Also, the paparazzi pictures of Nadal on that vacation show him standinng on the ski as he rides it which would create a pounding, jumping the wake,etc...

It's frustrating to have to guess why he is not playing. Those "Winning everything" periods abruptly turning into losing to Dodig, Rosol and co followed by semi retirement and then back to winning everything are just weird!

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:

legendkillar wrote:
Still you dodge the question. Quite common of you to do.

Naah. I don't dodge any question. I might have missed it, but don't dodge it. Can you repeat you question, I'll answer it.

Ahh but you do. I don't see the need to repeat when I asked it 3 times

legendkillar wrote:

To quote yourself

So from June 17, 2011 - July 29, 2011. So it was 1 month and 12 days. He was under provisional suspension and nothing was made public. If he was missing any tournament, he could easily have declared a fake injury. Had Kendrick won his case, this missing case would have all appeared due to an injury. I have checked ATP's site and he didn't play anything in 2011 during June 17 - July 29. I don't know what reason did he declare for his absence. But moreover who cares about why such a low ranked player is missing a tournament, I don't think many would even take notice of his absence.


Also "ITF documents indicate he volunteered to be placed on a provisional suspension.."


brilliant. Theres the proof from yourself

This is really hilarious. I didn't expect you would write this when I already told you.
You call this article fucked up. You call the author clueless. You want to trash my points. And what you you have to back you up? Nothing but quotes from this very article you called fucked up. You are using my own statement as your proof. ha ha funny. You end up proving my case and you don't even get what you are doing. . If my words are your proof, then you have nothing at hand to counter me.

Go get your own proof LK, which is not from a fucked up article as this. . Lets see what they are.

your right it is hilarious when you ask for proof on a point you made with 'facts'

Why not actually provide me with proof that these bans are actually enforced on players and we can go forward. Seriously it makes me laugh how you think you are the one not clueless.

legendkillar wrote: I am not questioning that the ITP/ATP can't suspend. I merely stated there was nothing to suggest they would've placed Kendrick on a 'provisional ban' Korda wasn't.

There was if you wanted to see.

1. Is there something called provisional suspension in which a player is barred from playing but the news is not disclosed to public? Yes
2. Can ATP/ITF place a player on provisional suspension? Yes. Looks like you agree to it as you said. But as I said many times, like all rules it depends on factors and the judgement can vary.
3. Can a player volunteer to give up to the proceedings and voluntarily accept whatever is given? Yes. The article says Kendrick volunteered for a provisional ban. But this doesn't mean if he hadn't, there was no way he couldn't still be banned. Why would a player in his sane mind would volunteer for a suspension if he had nothing to fear? Maybe his lawyers suggested it would be better if he himself volunteered than trying to counter the charges or the provisional ban which he might get put into. Perhaps he volunteered to avoid stricter punishment. Perhaps he volunteered to make it a bit easy on himself as there was no choice.

Is it impossible ? If someone like LA can give up and accept not to counter the charges he was facing, its not impossible that someone relatively unknown like Kendrick won't give in. Is it so uncommon? No.

4. Kodra wasn't barred, doesn't mean Nadal also can't be and then is surely injured. If you are saying you are not questioning if ATP/ITF can put a player on provisional suspension then why is it impossible for you to believe that Nadal is serving one such ban. You are countering yourself?? How many times will I have to tell you every case is different and it doesn't work alike. Kodra's case may not be strong enough to put him in suspension. But possible Nadal's case is.

5. Nadal talks about injury are so inconsistent, not only people like us, even his peers are talking openly about it. Wasn't it that Federer was surprised at Nadal's prolonged absence. Of course I don't expect him to be anything but diplomatic in his interviews, but he too didn't find it very convincing.

6. You have to have a blind faith in Nadal if you don't see any inconsistencies in those talks. If you see inconsistencies, there are reasons to doubt. No proof, but definitely reasons.

So you have no proof to support your case Nadal 'volunteered'

As you said come back with some proof. Nadal's group has declared him injured.

So who's word should I take? Those closer to him? Or some twat with no proof whatsoever and no ties with player.

As you want proof. Here we are:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/109571203/Wheelchair-Tennis-Player-Suspended-by-UK-Anti-Doping

Another wait for it......Voluntary suspension!!

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Rafael-Nadal-My-knee-still-hurts-Davis-Cup-final-Improbable--articolo6500.html

Nadal with a further update

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/25/rafael-nadal-injury-golf-rio-2016-olympics_n_1912124.html

Now read the first paragraph and tell me that the doctors are incorrect as we have a wealth of medical knowledge here

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/tennis-doping-wide-ranging-says-yannick-noah/story-fnbe6xeb-1226496578768

Finally Yannick is at it again!!

When will he come off that fence and finger players he knows are doping

legendkillar wrote:http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/tennis-doping-wide-ranging-says-yannick-noah/story-fnbe6xeb-1226496578768

Finally Yannick is at it again!!

I woudl much rather trust people who are close to the sport and anti-doping like Noah and Dick Pound than any athlete with a clear interest to make us believe the sport is clean.

So Noah who has Tsonga, Gasquet, Wilander, and a 100s more tennis friends probably knows much more than us and has I am sure a much more neutral approach than any athlete or official sport journalist who are trying to sell us a product.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19954565

This is why I woudl not trust anyone close to a player/athlete nor someone from the ITF/ATP. All with vested interest!

I would like for him to be a standard bearer that outs the dopers Ten. I don't mind athletes past or present make what I would accusations, but I would like one of them sooner or later to put themselves and their reputation on the line for the sake of sport.

Tenez wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19954565

This is why I woudl not trust anyone close to a player/athlete nor someone from the ITF/ATP. All with vested interest!

Such a depressing and yet not surprising read. People are amazing when trying to cover their lies, at one stage it becomes comical....if you are not affected, that is.

Media should latch on on this LA story as much as possible in order to escalate doping problem in other sports.

this is a golden opportunity that must not be squandered!

legendkillar wrote:I would like for him to be a standard bearer that outs the dopers Ten. I don't mind athletes past or present make what I would accusations, but I would like one of them sooner or later to put themselves and their reputation on the line for the sake of sport.

That would be great but it is not something they can or should do even. We just need another tennis "USADA" to do a proper job. It's way too difficult to prove something nowadays. Look how difficult it was to pin Cantador despite the evidence and once again, UCI was protecting him.

But like LA, there was tons of rumours going on and those rumours helped the truth come out at the end. I think it's important to question systematically all athletes, especially those where it's obvious, physique is the fundation of their success.

legendkillar wrote:As you want proof. Here we are:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/109571203/Wheelchair-Tennis-Player-Suspended-by-UK-Anti-Doping

Another wait for it......Voluntary suspension!!

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Rafael-Nadal-My-knee-still-hurts-Davis-Cup-final-Improbable--articolo6500.html

Nadal with a further update

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/25/rafael-nadal-injury-golf-rio-2016-olympics_n_1912124.html

Now read the first paragraph and tell me that the doctors are incorrect as we have a wealth of medical knowledge here

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/tennis-doping-wide-ranging-says-yannick-noah/story-fnbe6xeb-1226496578768

Finally Yannick is at it again!!

When will he come off that fence and finger players he knows are doping

. Another one who can't even understand what was asked in the discussion and posting useless tripe.

You say you don't question if ATP/ITF can put a player in provisional suspension. Yet its impossible for you to believe they ever did or can do. Self contradictory.


Take another proof then:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2009/09/25/sp-tennis-federer-japan.html

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:

legendkillar wrote:As you want proof. Here we are:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/109571203/Wheelchair-Tennis-Player-Suspended-by-UK-Anti-Doping

Another wait for it......Voluntary suspension!!

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Rafael-Nadal-My-knee-still-hurts-Davis-Cup-final-Improbable--articolo6500.html

Nadal with a further update

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/25/rafael-nadal-injury-golf-rio-2016-olympics_n_1912124.html

Now read the first paragraph and tell me that the doctors are incorrect as we have a wealth of medical knowledge here

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/tennis-doping-wide-ranging-says-yannick-noah/story-fnbe6xeb-1226496578768

Finally Yannick is at it again!!

When will he come off that fence and finger players he knows are doping

. Another one who can't even understand what was asked in the discussion and posting useless tripe.

Take another proof then:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2009/09/25/sp-tennis-federer-japan.html

Trying to justify the hypocrisy of Nadal being suspeneded.

I have fully understood well what was asked.

It's just because no-one buys into your crap you start so you start asking random questions to ultimately try and prove something unfounded.

I think if you would have understood, you wouldn't have been so stubbornly sticking your to your case. Thats fine, you are entitled to whatever opinion you have, you can believe whatever you want.

Anyway, convincing anyone is not never a point on forums. We can all talk, speculate, make our on judgement. You don't see any reason to suspect something about Nadal's absence. some of people see it. So lets leave it at this point.

It isn't about stubbornly.

There were rumours of 1 month silent bans here or there and yet when something comes out that miscues that theory, the goalposts get shifted. The one pattern emerging from the article you posted is the 3 month period for a 'provisional suspension' before the case is made public and the appropriate sanctions. Also what is present is that the majority of the suspensions were self imposed. Korda had no such moral code to follow the same process.

Now whilst the article was interesting, it annoyed me that such time delays in the suspension and the fact players could still play despite having a positive test hanging over their heads. Yes that at the time is 'silent' It offers no credit to the ITF/WADA that they act upon these tests whether it be for recreational drugs or performance enhancing drugs.

My issue here is that I have seen on this forum from yourself and others about how 'dishonest' Nadal is and how some of his views can be of a selfish benefit to himself. If we were to match his ruthless ambition for success with Armstrong for example without consideration for the costs, how can it be justified that he then agreed for a self imposed 'silent' ban given that history tells us that the ITF have actually 'forecefully' imposed a silent suspension on any player? This is my issue. We all know what Armstrong did when he was found to have tested positive and that was to bribe his way out of it. If we are to believe that Nadal is of a similar cloth in morals and ambition, why would such a character then admit guilt by agreeing to a suspension? Because that is what it is essentially. An admission of guilt. Something Armstrong is unwilling to do. That co-operation we are led to believe is not something that stacks with the character he portrays to be in many's eyes on this forum.

I am happy to agree to disagree, but I think if we are to believe Nadal is a serial drug cheat, then we must pursue the route of he is getting away with it much than the silent ban theory.

I am hoping that the Armstrong case does open the floodgates for other organisations to apply pressure to athletes to come forward if they have proof of athletes doping.

Like I stated many times yes there are many instances to which I could easily point the finger of doping not just at Nadal, but others. I can agree the human body can only withstand so much rigourous activities that amazing athleticism can not only be attributed to such standards of performances that many athletes pose. Like I said as a Murray fan. How can a guy on 6,000 calorie a day diet and run 90 miles in a season on an ankle which only has 1 out of the 3 ligaments left? Yes there are many inconsistencies. Tenez as a Fed fan quoted 20% in Federer possibly to have doped in his career.

I throw the accusations and curiosity to the whole field and not just restrict it to a fair few.

Veejay wrote:Im asking for proof Laverfan,you made the accusations that the images were doctored,the burden of proof lies with you

Unless I was the one who actually edited the image and changed it, there is very little in terms of a proof that is possible. The image I had posted as a comparison was blatantly and obviously doctored. As the sophistication of such changes increases, it becomes harder to provide without a significant investment of technical resources.

Veejay wrote:What are you trying to say by quoting mr Igns that the Nandrolone was supposedly a fiasco?Are you trying to imply that that means doping doesnt exist in tennis or that tennis players wont take steroids?

No.

Veejay wrote:How many times have I told you before that where there is a will there is a way,only way you'll stop a doper is to catch them,as long as they are getting away with it they will continue to dope Did you actually specifically ask Richard Ings?
Richard was quite keen to "set me straight" when I voiced my suspicion why so few athletes are caught doping and questioned if a plausible possibility for a cover up exists...

I am not interested in asking Ings.

Veejay wrote:Next thing I knew I was told he had worked with all the Nandrolone cases and to date there was in the region of 40 cases ( for Nandrolone case alone) left me as shocked as your are Laverfan.I wont at all be surprised if he has changed his story since then,like you he tends to be a bit all over the place.

Regarding Ings, what I find surprising is that an ex ATP-official who was involved in anti-doping operations, and was the head of ASADA, ad decided to participate in such discussion in the first place.

Veejay wrote:Anyway I never said what he claimed was 100% fact,I dont need mr Igns to prove steroids are used by certain players.I think I have made quite a credible case for Nadal,based on facts rather then fiction

Neither is your claim for Nadal on PEDs 100% fact. You are providing a plausible explanation, while I have provided simpler explanations.

Veejay wrote:Interesting read by Magnus Norman,I personally give this account more credibility then mr Igns
It was first written in Swedish (http://www.svd.se/sportspel/nyheter/sa-morkade-tennisen-sex-dopingfall_460641.svd) and then translated into English:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/71231087/Tennis-Off-The-Record

This is a repetition of the Nadrolone fisaco. There is nothing new here. The known and proven Nadrolone cases are not that many, as the link I had posted, shows.

Veejay wrote:How many times did Marion Jones pass drugs tests before she was finally caught,they are claiming well over a 100 on THASP
Technology evolves,there will always be designer drugs that are ahead of the game,but its good to know that samples are supposedly kept for 8 years.This doesnt however scare anyone away from doping and only time will tell if proper accounting and controlling is done

Each case should be dealt on an individual basis. Rusedski and others were incorrectly accused.

Veejay wrote:I dont find it surprising how you fid "Richard Ings's interview may be the only saving grace for that website."
You seem to give anything that suits our agenda much credence and completly dismiss any possibility of something that doesnt suit your genda but yet youre moto is "objectivity"

My agenda is not Nadal's defence, but the defence of Tennis. The interesting part is that despite Jones, Johnson, LA, etc., Tennis is yet to have a celebrity indicted. Gasquet, Hingis and Rusdeski may perhaps be the closest.

Veejay wrote:Let me ask you this Laverfan,taking into consideration everything we have discussed are you open to the possibility that Nadal could have or is doping or do you still completely rule the possibility out?

Not just Nadal, but many others.

You had asked about the Steroids vs EPO, IIRC.

I have always stated that a balance between Strength and Endurance is required in Tennis. An excess of either is detrimental to the success of a player, because it creates over-reliance on that aspect.

Speaking to Mark Chapman and The Times' Jeremy Whittle on a BBC Radio 5 live Sport special, Millar - who himself had a two-year doping ban from cycling - says he is "not a politician" but believes he "could make a difference" if he sought the top position at the UCI.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19956995

Very glad to see ex-cyclists with personal doping experience considering the responsibility of cleaning the sport. Finally, someone realised that there is much that can be learned from the 'dark side'.

I would like to see Ferrari, Fuentes, Moral, Galea and others pay back to the sports that they have tarnished the reputation of, with minimal financial compensation.

I would also think long-term Spanish interests are better served by publicising Puerto lists publicly and restore faith and trust in their respective organisations.

Tenez wrote:So Noah who has Tsonga, Gasquet, Wilander, and a 100s more tennis friends probably knows much more than us and has I am sure a much more neutral approach than any athlete or official sport journalist who are trying to sell us a product.

Tenez wrote:This is why I woudl not trust anyone close to a player/athlete nor someone from the ITF/ATP. All with vested interest!

Noah is a player, who has friends who play Tennis. Which of the two categories does he not belong to?

Why should Noah be any more neutral than Mariano Rajoy?

I know who Noah is but not Rajoy.

laverfan wrote:Why should Noah be any more neutral than Mariano Rajoy?

Can't talk about Mariano cause I don;t know him but people with logic A and B can clearly see why Noah would be more neutral than Nadal when talking about doping issues.....however it seems type C posters, a rare thing I admit, cannot see why.

Just found out who Rajoy is.....my love for tennis is broadening my general knowledge no end

noleisthebest wrote:I know who Noah is but not Rajoy.

Search engines are your friend.

Tenez wrote:... cannot see why.

"The French Tennis Federation wishes to express its disagreement with Yannick Noah's comments made in Le Monde newspaper," the FFT said in a statement.

"Against the plague of doping in sport, baseless accusations and provocative comments are inappropriate, and the worst attitude would be to give up."


http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/sports/2011-11/23/content_14148905.htm


PS:

Can someone look at this link (I cannot) and provide an English translation?

http://www.welovetennis.fr/polemique/42282-un-ancien-arbitre-accuse-yannick-noah

French Minister for Sports David Douillet condemned Noah's accusations as irresponsible, and said he hoped to introduce a criminal penalty for doping.

"What are we saying in reality when we want to institutionalize doping? We imagine that our children will die at 40 or that 12-year-old kids will take pills in the locker room, that's what that means," Douillet said on France 2 television.

http://sports.ndtv.com/tennis/news/item/181219-tennis-great-noah-accuses-spanish-players-of-doping

Very strange indeed.

luvsports! wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/tennis/2012/10/18/is-tennis-doing-enough-on-doping/1639911/

Very interesting read LS, thanks!
What do you make of it all?

A bit more on the same topic:
http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/10/blake-there-are-dopers-tennis/39827/#.UIBPE4W0bgo

Errani cut ties with that doctor as soon as his dodgy dealings were disclosed. Question is was she having to deal with him in the first place for?
Also interesting how Blake has strong suspicion and Tipsarevic claims the sport is a lot cleaner than perceived. Then you have Noah, the legend who keeps going....
Can't wait for that January case to open....

i am absolutely fascinated by it all to be honest i cannot stop reading everything and anything related to doping in sport right now, especially in light of the revelations over armstrong.
I know very little about drug testing in tennis compared to cycling to be honest but it is a good read.