The History Thread

[Tenez]

This is the thread where you can post little annecdotal stories about past players and matches.

Of course i'll start with an example of the most heard off to take it out of the way so we do not have to hear it again down the thread. McEnroe's outburst "you must be joking" or "you cannot be serious" had been mentioned ad nausea and there is very little point mentioning again. Here is a summary of all those incidents about McEnroe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koE_e_LX4c0

However have you got in your memory other similar incidents on and off the court you woudl like to share? Be it a loss of control from a player, gamesmanship, insults or jokes...please post it here.

[noleisthebest]

I liked this one from Steffi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlA_hL3NyyU

[noleisthebest]

My top favourite one from Nole:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAt0O-RkRwk

[Tenez]

[quote="noleisthebest"]I liked this one from Steffi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlA_hL3NyyU[/quote]

That was my first time ever on CC. I did not even have tcikets for CC but it was the time you coudl sneak in pretending and move from seat to seat as people were filling in. I heard the guy shout but coudl not hear Steffi's response...only later did I find out about it.

[noleisthebest]

[quote="Tenez"]

I liked this one from Steffi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlA_hL3NyyU[/quote]

That was first time ever on CC. I did not even have tcikets for CC but it was the time you coudl sneak in pretending and move from seat to seat as people were filling in. I heard the guy shout but coudl not hear Steffi's response...only later did I find out about it.

those were the days....btw, it wasn't you , was it?

[luvsports!]

tenez i still do that!!!!
thats one of the best parts
when you dont have the show court tickets and you sneak on and marvel out its beauty and wonder ahhhh bliss

[noleisthebest]

You cannot beat personal anecdotes, and although I've only been to Wimbledon three times, I've had some truly outrageous experiences:

http://www.606v2.com/t8468p50-guys-i-m-in-central-court

The following year was just as unforgettable but for completely different reasons

[Tenez]

tenez i still do that!!!!
thats one of the best parts
when you dont have the show court tickets and you sneak on and marvel out its beauty and wonder ahhhh bliss

Well done!! THat to me is the trait of a real fan! You are in effect only taking the space of people who have not bothered turning up.

I am too old to do that now. I lost some of that rebellous and daring spirit.

[luvsports!]

Thanks . haha dont say that buddy! with the amount of tennis you do surely you have a lotta running left in the legs !

nothing like the thrill of running around the whole of court 1 and centre court, running up and down stairs asking different guard at each stairway if i can sneak in and if not where to go!

unfortunately i still did this when i was working at wimbledon last year on my lunch breaks :/. 14 hour + shifts really take it out of you so by that time i needed to save my energy a bit and buy food.

Luckily i made mates with one of the guards who every other day would get me onto centre from day 1 to last 16
LUVED IT! thats why i Luvsports!

[Tenez]

DOes anybody remember the one about Becker v Medvedev in Wimby 1994 4th round? Very tight, 2 sets all. Agassi had been eliminated at an earlier round and Boris who was in danger of going out started to use gamesmanship in the 5th on Medvedev's serve breaking his rhythm between 1st and 2nd. He did this repeatedly and at teh press conf. Medvev complained.

When journalists questioned Becker about it, he responded with a sarcastic, ironic smile asking them whether they had nothing else to talk about since Agassi was no longer in the tournament? Typical of a cunning politician response...aggressive response to get away from a simple answer.

[luvsports!]

vividly. I was 2

[Tenez]

I cannot believe I m entering this stage of life when one becomes a source of past information.

[noleisthebest]

I cannot believe I m entering this stage of life when one becomes a source of past information.

I wouldn't have it any other way! Ideally I wish I was 20 in the late 50s......

[Tenez]

Same here. I do believe I come down from heaven and the more I age the sooner I'll go back up there.

[noleisthebest]

Same here. I do believe I come down from heaven and the more I age the sooner I'll go back up there.

tell me about it!

[luvsports!]

back in your more rebellious days

[noleisthebest]

back in your more rebellious days

LS,
you don't want to know!
But enough of personal history....this is meant to be about tennis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqLr00Krd0k

I think women are worse than men when it comes to on-court hate.

[raiders_of_the_lost_ark]

Nice and interesting thread. Good posts from everyone.

[raiders_of_the_lost_ark]

Goran Ivanisevic winning the wimbledon 2001 in the fifth set was one that will stay in my memory for a long time. Those days I really loved the big servers firing bombs. Still do.

Ivanisevic's story is stuff of holllywood, only this time it was for real. It was scripted by God himself, just couldn't have got any better.

What a moment in tennis!!

[Tenez]

Completely agree about Goran's win. It was by far my greatest tennis moment ...and might still be. Federer's story is far greater but spreads over 10 years with no single result being as enjoyable. His Wimbledon's 5-in-a-row final probably Fed's greatest win for me.

[noleisthebest]

Here's a clip BBC did about Goran's win and as he calls them "15 magical days of my life":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PBPyrx8c8w

[noleisthebest]

From the best to the worst tennis moment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2ixHAm5tD4&feature=related

[noleisthebest]

This qualifies as a blast from the past a bit. Mac comparing himself and in a way his era to the current ways, and then, just like in good old days, doesn't miss the opportunity to have another dig at Ivan The Terrible:

"John McEnroe tells the Daily Telegraph that he’d like to see Roger Federer and Novak Djokovic release their emotions more while playing.

Mac is right, who doesn't mind seeing a bit of this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyTH-mDcuMQ

“I think these guys handle themselves unbelievably well,” McEnroe said.“I don’t know how they have this incredible control. I’m not going to sit here and pretend I had the same control they did, and to some degree I wish they’d let it out a bit more. They’ll probably have ulcers when they’re 35. I don’t know how they can shrug it off. Maybe they look at their bank balances at the end of the year and that helps.”

McEnroe added that he now gets along better with his former archrival, Ivan Lendl, who currently coaches Andy Murray.

“It was like when Rocky fought Ivan Drago in Rocky IV – the American versus the machine; to me it felt a bit like that,” McEnroe said. “We definitely saw, and see, things very differently. We can sort of laugh about it now, I think. It’s not the same as then, when we did want to wring each other’s neck.

“I don’t think Ivan’s any different now than he was then. The good thing is that I was good enough not to have to listen to his jokes ( ) , whereas other guys felt they had to pay their respects, in a way;
there’s a hierarchy in any sport. I’d think, Thank God I don’t have to listen to this! But he still does it now. It’s amazing.”


Yes, I can easily imagine Spaniards having to laugh at Nadal's jokes, or even worse...Toni's

[noleisthebest]

OK, and for good measure, top ten racquet smashes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqP-ZLPauy0

[Tenez]

There is something "out-of-fashion", outdated about McEnroe, exactly like any 80s clips are.

A bit like his tennis....it died overnight in 1984...while Lendl kept on adapting and rule another 5 years at the top lessoning the youngsters like Agassi and Courier.

[noleisthebest]

Yes, Mac was definitely very colourful and needs to get a special "slam" awarded just for his entertainment contribution all those memories he left us.

Mind you, Youzhny with his racquet smash topping that top 10 list adds another meaning to the word "crackhead"...

[Tenez]

I think Baggy was even funnier in his racquet smashing show.

[noleisthebest]

Yes, his one is the ultimate. I think if he had 10 racquets he'd smash them all.
Youzhny's more of a mad and "creative" kind.
I don't know how he managed to continue the match as that poor head of his must have hurt like hell (esp the day after).
I know some people are aghast with that but I don't mind it. It wouldn't be great if they did it in every match, but now and then it's quite amusing.
I certainly felt like doing it once or twice.
The act of doing it probably feels good but then immediately after they probably regret it; at least the frustration gets vented out and they can get on with the match.
Nadal apparently isn't allowed to smash racquets by Toni, but in a way that would be equivalent of never being upset or shouting in "real" life. It's unnatural.
All that unvented grief must have been chanelled into his knees....

[Tenez]

Nadal would not cause that is the last thing he woudl want to give to his opponent. Nadal is the one frustrating, not the frustrated!

[noleisthebest]

Nadal would not cause that is the last thing he woudl want to give to his opponent. Nadal is the one frustrating, not the frustrated!

Although many would disagree, I actually feel sorry for him, it can't be healthy & fun to live in "that" skin.

[noleisthebest]

I'm going back in time on Saturday, and planning to kill two flies with one stone: see Nole receive his charity Award from Wils minus Kate as well as two exo matches featuring Tim &Goran, plus a doubles with Mac, Lendl and Bahrami.

Never been to one of those, got a cheapo ticket & hope to have a great time .

I think with this even I have attended everything London had to offer tennis wise this year (minus Queens), so pretty happy with my 2012

[Tenez]

Barhami willl be the most fun...though his tricks must be harder and harder to perform for him. He is no spring chiken.

[noleisthebest]

Great article from ST, on "Those Were The Days" theme...

Very nice "real" tennis in the clips, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wfReRBpn7nM#!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kFTCw9bK4EY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ieTWAg7X0nQ

http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/12/catching-tape-most-underrated-match-all-time/45605/#.UL_Ay4Wl3go

Beautiful shot making and pure skill against skill all-court tennis

Match point in the last clip is a must see!

[Tenez]

Good article from ST. I liked this bit:

The one-handed backhand of both players is a notable difference from today. Each man could gain control of a point by going after that wing, something you can't do againt a Murray or a Djokovic now. Watching this clip, I started to wonder if the rise of the two-handed backhand is underrated as a factor in making the game more, as we like to say, “physical” or “brutal” today. Speed and stamina aside, that shot alone allows players to defend and return offensively, and gives opponents no good place to start their attack.

[noleisthebest]

Good article from ST. I liked this bit:

The one-handed backhand of both players is a notable difference from today. Each man could gain control of a point by going after that wing, something you can't do againt a Murray or a Djokovic now. Watching this clip, I started to wonder if the rise of the two-handed backhand is underrated as a factor in making the game more, as we like to say, “physical” or “brutal” today. Speed and stamina aside, that shot alone allows players to defend and return offensively, and gives opponents no good place to start their attack.

I know. I tried to c&p the "Should double backhand be banned" thread as a comment, but they don't publish comments with links any more. From that thread, exactly 2 months ago :

I think DBH has, with slowing down of conditions
moved the game away form the net. The original game of tennis was very
creative, imaginative all-court, full of flair and fun.
Great part of that was played by the exclusive use of single bakchand.
Bakhand was the weakness in anyone's game, so you had to use it to move forward.
Double backhand kind of equals your wings and encourages defense.

Look at Murray! A defensive player with a great backhand.....
Djokovic is better as he attacks, so his overall game is different.
But when they play each other.....just ridiculous!

I enjoyed Federer Wawrinka match a lot more tennis-wise. And it was their SBH that made the difference.
It's watchable if you have at least one SBH in a match, two- it's a turn-off.

[noleisthebest]

Barhami willl be the most fun...though his tricks must be harder and harder to perform for him. He is no spring chiken.

just read that Lendl pulled out because of a KNEE INJURY , it's got to be contageous, so Forget is going to replace him....they could've at least unearthed Noah or Leconte, they'd be more interesting for more than one reason, ah well....

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/12/07/news/sports/lendl-pulls-out-from-statoil-masters-tennis/

[sphairistike]

Leconte is already playing statoil (as usual in the sense that he still plays on that tour) and he beat Pat Cash pretty easily and will face Wilander next. Forget won and faces McEnroe next:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/12/49/Statoli-Masters-Tennis-London-Thursday-Recap.aspx

[noleisthebest]

Here's my link....

https://www.youtube.com/v/azQudHUXReI

...though not quite on the Edberg topic. There was a nice thread started by Tenez a while ago, but as all nice threads for some reason not that popular.
Maybe we could dust it off and bring it back to life again:

https://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/t193-the-history-thread

Having been to RG in the meantime, I can confirm that it looks just like in this clip...nothing has changed.
It has kept its charm. No roof, not even the lights for night matches. Plenty if concrete. That dusty old feel of time.
Total contrast to Wimbledon, just like the playing surface.
Ticket inspectors allowing you to go and sit in the seats better than your ticket.
I know it can be frustrating, but I think it's just great it's refusing to go for the facelift.

[Tenez]

....and I played on it!   

[noleisthebest]

....and I played on it!   

You didn't!!!!! (no appropriate smiley to express my excitement here)
Come on, you've got to tell us more now!

[Tenez]

I thought I told you already.

[Tenez]

I lived very nearby as you know. So once a couple of times with my brother (we were about 18/19) we went there and watched Tulasne and Champion train, when they left we went on court and started a set. It was after the FO, so there was a couple of guys cleaning doing some works on the tribune but no one asked what we were doing there...until some guardians came and asked who we were...we just said we were students in the nearby lycee but that was not good enough and kicked us out. At that time I had just started to play tennis so clearly our crap tennis gave us in.

We had second session there but got kicked again after a few games.

[naxroy]

1891 H.brighs first ever winner of the French Championships in 1891 as he was member of a frech club.
1903 Lawrence Doherty, first tennis player to win two different slams (also first foreigner to win usopen)
1907 Norman Brookes, first foreigner to win at wimbledon
1908 Fred Alexander, first foreigner to win the australasian championships
1933 Jack Crawford first foreigner to win Roland Garros as such (once it was an international event) 


from 1884 to 1911 usopen was played with challenge round, this means the winner of the previous year defended title in just one match, this affects considerably our perceptions of the multiple winners in those years:

it means thar Sears won his titles 4-7 with just one match each
same with Larned, his titles 4, 5, 6 and 7 consisted on winning that challenge match against the winner of that years draw. (after Larned´s last victory, the challenge round was never played again)

Under this perspective, Bill Tilden grows ahead of previous champions of the Usopen

At wimbledon there was challenge round also untill 1921 included, but several times defending champion did not defend his title and in the end after 1922 challenge round was not played again.

So W. Renshaw with 7 titles won 5 of them playing just one match, L. Doherty won 4 of 5 in this way too and A. Wilding 3 of 4

Australian Open never had this challenge round, whixh probably explains why in those first decades there is no player winning 5-7 tournaments in a row

I cant find good info on Roland garros, but it seems it also had it at least in the previous years to 1922


anyone know about this period at the frenc open?

[barrystar]

This site reckons challenge rounds only existed for USO and Wimbledon http://www.tennis.co.nf/stats3.htm, and the difference between the way French Championship winners are listed and those of Wimbledon and the US Championship on Wikipedia is pretty good circumstantial evidence that there was no challenge round in France.

My understanding is that the French was not a particularly prestigious tournament in international terms until it became open to (amateur) players outside the French Club system in the 1920's, at the same time as the Four Musketeers were coming to prominence.  They did well at Wimbledon and in the US during the 20's, and in particular rammed the quality of French tennis home when they won the DC vs. the US in Pennsylvania in 1927 or so.

It's easy to forget how so many institutions or events we look upon now as having 'established' prestige owe so much of their status to idiosyncrasy and/or the hard work and success (or design) of individuals at particular times in history - such events or institutions might look very different had history taken a different turn.  Of the four modern slams, the Australian Open was always seen as a slam, but for most of its existence its prestige was nothing like the other four, or what it is now, and it has only caught up after 1988 with draws of 128 and moving to the HC courts at Melbourne.

The concept of 'slam' in tennis derived from a Grand Slam in Bridge - which is winning all 13 tricks, namely bidding and making 7, i.e. v. little to do with the number '4' on the face of it.

Golf is similar - the closest that sport had to the Slams was the Open, the Amateur, US Open, and US Amateur, which were won by the great amateur Bobby Jones in 1930, described as the 'impregnable quadrilateral'.  The four most prestigious pro Golf tournaments in the 1920's/1930's were the Open, US Open, PGA, and the Western Open (really meaning mid-west, played in the environs of Chicago) - the greatest pro of the 1920's, Walter Hagen, won all four.

The modern concept of the 4 professional golfing Majors arose when Arnold Palmer won the Masters and the US Open and was flying across to compete in the Open in 1960.  He and a journalist were discussing what Professional Golf's equivalent was to Tennis's Slams (still all amateur at that time).  They reckoned the four most prestigious tournaments were the Masters, US Open, the Open and the PGA.  The idea took hold over time and here we have it.  The oddest thing to me is the enormous prestige of the Masters and how they yap on about tradition and history there when it only started in 1934.  Personally I think it's contrived bunkum, with the smallest field and the least history of all four majors - even Jones and Hagen were unable to compete at the Masters in their prime, let alone the greats before them (Vardon/Taylor/Braid to name just three).  The one golfing trophy that all the all-time greats have won with almost no exceptions (Byron Nelson and Ray Floyd most prominently) is the Open - a bit like Wimbledon really.

As I said, firm current understandings about prestige owe far more to idiosyncrasy than most of us realise...

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