Baby Fed 3: Denis Shapovalov

We've had Baby Fed 1 - Gasquet. Don't ask me why...must have been the SBH, as they were getting rare at the time.

Then when Gasquet turned out to be Baby Robredo, came Dimitrov...Baby Fed 2!
SBH was there, plus he also tried to look like Federer...in his early days, there was a bandana...
Alas, Dimi didn't have much else to keep building on that big nickname, esp not the FH.
So he ended up being Baby Haas.

And now...allow me to be the first to christen Denis Shapovalov as:

BABY FED 3!

Here are my reasons:

Obviously, the SBH! (that has to be a must to qualify!  ) 
Big game, fearless, emotional,  good competitor, likes to cry...and fantastic overheads!
A very modern version.

What do tou think?

I'd rather he just be christened Denis Shapovalov.

Not into this Baby Fed nonsense. The guy can forge his own path without having to worry about carrying labels of being likened to past players.

I actually think he's the least like Federer of the three!

If he's like anyone, I see him as closer to Stan. It's the power of the shots rather than the shape of them that makes him stand out.

In terms of temperament, it's tough to say. Shap is only 18 and Federer at 18 had a different on-court persona to Federer in his 20s.

legendkillar wrote:I'd rather he just be christened Denis Shapovalov.

Not into this Baby Fed nonsense. The guy can forge his own path without having to worry about carrying labels of being likened to past players.

Baby Fed ticket is a badge of honour, LK!

Of course he is Denis Shapovalov, and he sure knows it!

... wrote:

legendkillar wrote:I'd rather he just be christened Denis Shapovalov.

Not into this Baby Fed nonsense. The guy can forge his own path without having to worry about carrying labels of being likened to past players.

Baby Fed ticket is a badge of honour, LK!

Of course he is Denis Shapovalov, and he sure knows it!

It's no badge of honour, much rather a curse!

It's a pressure I don't think he need really. It didn't help Dimi's career and I can't ever recall Gassy ever being called it.

To me he was most impressive on grass...yesterday did not really impress me from the 15mn clip I saw.

Tenez wrote:To me he was most impressive on grass...yesterday did not really impress me from the 15mn clip I saw.

Yes!
I think the clip probably didn't do him justice.
We'll see now he fares vs Manna, should be a really good one.

I agree with HMM, more of a Stan power style, then Fed.

Nobody is like Federer/ He's a player that comes along once in 50 to 100 years.

Makes me smile how they talk about how generous Federer is knocking with all these young players.

Absolutely nothing to do with him getting a feel for their game of course. If he plays Shapovalov he won't be unfamiliar with his ball.

Jahu wrote:I agree with HMM, more of a Stan power style, then Fed.

Stan is rigid in his style, Shapa is not. Hence his best surface is grass.

Stan likes slow comditions, Shapa fast.

Federer on Shap: "It looks like he has a few more gears".

Yes, only a player with lots of talent and belief in that talent can play/win they way Shapa is winning.

It's nice to see.

Ostapenko is very similar, though noone can match her strength. She is really special.

Yes, Shap has talent and he can play!
Really not bad for an 18 yo.

The first time Shapovalov and Rafa met (courtesy of Reckoner on 606v2)

reckoner wrote:They met for the first time at the Rogers Cup in 2008:

Hehe, young Shap only asked Feli to sign his shirt.

He knew the value of SBH even then.

Shapovalov is great to watch and if he keeps it up he will quite possibly become my favorite player after Fed retires (assuming Fed retires before he does).

But. He is no baby Fed. One thing that makes Fed extra special is that his game is at the same time jaw-droppingly good and jaw-droppingly stylish. You can sort top 100 players in terms of quality, and then again in terms of elegance. The two lists will look quite scrambled relative to each other, but Fed will top them both.

Shapovalov is good and very watchable, and may well become great. But he will never have Fed's elegance. Both Fed's shots, and even more so Fed's movement are miles more graceful than Shapovalov's. Fed, especially young Fed, was moving like a cat. He just always happened to be in position. Shapovalov just the opposite. He is quite often caught off-balance (credit to him he is often able to make his shots anyway, but it costs him elegance points).

Shapovalov is just Shapovalov. I can see why people would liken him to Stan - with his power off both wings - but on balance I do not like that comparison either. Shapovalov is far more aggressive than Stan, he is constantly looking for an opportunity to take the point over.

Anyway, I hope he does well because I like him better than any other of the youngsters.

summerblues wrote:Shapovalov is great to watch and if he keeps it up he will quite possibly become my favorite player after Fed retires (assuming Fed retires before he does).

summerblues wrote:
But.  He is no baby Fed.  One thing that makes Fed extra special is that his game is at the same time jaw-droppingly good and jaw-droppingly stylish.  You can sort top 100 players in terms of quality, and then again in terms of elegance.  The two lists will look quite scrambled relative to each other, but Fed will top them both.

Fed 2017 is also a very polished version of his 18 yo self.
He is twice Shap's age!

summerblues wrote:
Shapovalov is good and very watchable, and may well become great.  But he will never have Fed's elegance.  Both Fed's shots, and even more so Fed's movement are miles more graceful than Shapovalov's.  Fed, especially young Fed, was moving like a cat.  He just always happened to be in position.  Shapovalov just the opposite.  He is quite often caught off-balance (credit to him he is often able to make his shots anyway, but it costs him elegance points).

Yes, I know.
That's why all these olayers get the "baby" tag. Nobody said he was going to be the same as Federer.
But he is very similar in the court thinking, and above all he is natural, does not play by percentage and is not a basher either.
And that is a big thing.
Who else plays like that?

summerblues wrote:
Shapovalov is just Shapovalov.  I can see why people would liken him to Stan - with his power off both wings - but on balance I do not like that comparison either.  Shapovalov is far more aggressive than Stan, he is constantly looking for an opportunity to take the point over.
Anyway, I hope he does well because I like him better than any other of the youngsters.

I think he's very different to Stan.
Stan is heavy on his feet, a bit mechanical, needs slow surfaces, Shapa is the other way round.

Shap's  BH is potentially going to be better than Stan's.
And his FH & serve are better already.

Once he masters his net game, he'll be fantastic. He is a loose player. A rare thing these days,
He already loves to move in, but it's not as easy as 20 years ago when Fed was starting.

I wonder how much is being lefty going to help Shap.

Yesterday was funny to watch CC FH between him and Manna (also a lefty).

Being lefty will help. It always does - at least a little bit. It certainly helped vs Rafa where his SHBH was not much of a liability (before they played I forgot Denis was a lefty so was a little worried and then it felt so good during the match that cross court rallies were FH-toFH).

Yes Fed is very special cause he makes this gruelling era look easy. I have not seen a player who can afford to make the game look easy. ......Nalbandian in a way was closest to him but he really was lazy.

It's not Feli in Shap's company...it's that Russian who gave Fed some trouble in that 2008 USO 1/4 or SF.

You're right, it's Andreev.

Cross-posting from 606v2:

Shapovalov in now 18y4m old (well, will be in a couple of days).  That is awful young to be in M1000 SF.  In fact, if I understand ATP site correctly, he is the youngest ever quarter-finalist in an M1000 event (apparently 1990 is the beginning of history there).

I compared him to some other current players - the big four and some other notables that were spoken of highly when young - to see how old they were when they first reached SF at either M1000 or a slam.  Here goes (some numbers may be slightly off):

Shapovalov:  18y 4m

Big 4:
Rafa: 18y 9m (Miami '05)
Andy: 19y 3m (Canada '06)
Nole: 19y 9m (IW '07)
Fed: 20y 7m (Miami '02)

Some others:
Gasquet: 18y 9m (MC, '05)
Monfils: 19y 8m (Rome '06)
Zverev: 20y (Rome '17)
Del Potro: 20y 5m (Miami '09)
Kyrgios: 20y 10m (Miami '16)
Raonic: 22y 7m (Canada '13)
Thiem: 22y 9m (RG, '16)
Dimitrov: 23y (Rome '14)
Tomic: na
Coric: na

Shapovalov youngest of them all - about five months ahead of Rafa and Gasquet.  Too soon to tell if his career will be more Rafaesque or Gasquetesque, but the start is as good as anyone's.

Also, noteworthy that both Zverev and Shapovalov (and even Kyrgios) have been able to break through at a young age - similar to Rafa/Andy/Nole/Fed before them, suggesting yet again that the dearth of successful youngsters in-between is due to lack of talent as much as due to changes in playing conditions.

Wow, that's quite a telling chart.
Didn't know Nole was so "old" when he "started".
In my mind he won his first slam in 08, AO, and was sure he won Miami or Montreal, I think, the same or year before. He beat Fed in the final, and in thise days beating Fed was breaking news.

Regardless, this youngest young generation does look talented, at least Shapalov and Kyrgios.

They play with ease.

Zverev is another Nadal in a way, winning with power and fitness.

The X generation - Nishi Dimi and Rao are def. lost.
Did they ever have real, proper talent?
In my books only Nishi, but he had so many other issues.

Dimi just not good enough, although he is very good and I really took to him this AO when he nearly beat Nadal.
He fought like a lion.

summerblues wrote:Cross-posting from 606v2:

Shapovalov in now 18y4m old (well, will be in a couple of days).  That is awful young to be in M1000 SF.  In fact, if I understand ATP site correctly, he is the youngest ever quarter-finalist in an M1000 event (apparently 1990 is the beginning of history there).

I compared him to some other current players - the big four and some other notables that were spoken of highly when young - to see how old they were when they first reached SF at either M1000 or a slam.  Here goes (some numbers may be slightly off):

Shapovalov:  18y 4m

Big 4:
Rafa: 18y 9m (Miami '05)
Andy: 19y 3m (Canada '06)
Nole: 19y 9m (IW '07)
Fed: 20y 7m (Miami '02)

Some others:
Gasquet: 18y 9m (MC, '05)
Monfils: 19y 8m (Rome '06)
Zverev: 20y (Rome '17)
Del Potro: 20y 5m (Miami '09)
Kyrgios: 20y 10m (Miami '16)
Raonic: 22y 7m (Canada '13)
Thiem: 22y 9m (RG, '16)
Dimitrov: 23y (Rome '14)
Tomic: na
Coric: na

Shapovalov youngest of them all - about five months ahead of Rafa and Gasquet.  Too soon to tell if his career will be more Rafaesque or Gasquetesque, but the start is as good as anyone's.

Also, noteworthy that both Zverev and Shapovalov (and even Kyrgios) have been able to break through at a young age - similar to Rafa/Andy/Nole/Fed before them, suggesting yet again that the dearth of successful youngsters in-between is due to lack of talent as much as due to changes in playing conditions.

I would like to read the same stats about youngsters reaching TMS1000 semi or finals....Shapo might not be top any longer...which won't tell us anything about his future success anyway.

It's funny...Shapo's legwork and FH reminds me of young Agassi.

On second thoughts, his blond hair reminds me of young Becker...



I get it!!!

Nobody can ever be Federer, not even a baby Federer.

Dear me, this is a hornet's nest!

Just watched a summary versus Tsonga in that first round.

It's worth putting some money on his to win Wimbeldon this year or next.

Painful to watch him lose that match after having had ball for 4/0 in the 5th and being 5/2 up. Had no energy left after that.

I was gutted to see him lose that match.
He must have played great.

I can’t watch it now that I know he lost it.

What I liked is that he didn’t seem to be too upset after the loss, apparently he was upbeat about the rest of the season.

To me he is the only player apart from Frd that plays the game with joy and I am so glad he came out of nowhere almost.

Wonderful talent...organic, still only 18!

Not sure he’ll win Wimbledon this year, next.. quite possible.

I am not sure either...but I think he is amongst the favourites. When you see how much he progressed in one year...he has now 6 months to get even better.

He is more impressive than federer at the same age....even if maybe less graceful.

I wouldn’t dismiss Dimitrov. His real problem was that he became the official ATP Playboy, dating all & sundry.

Now I see a guy who looks to me like he’s dropped quite some weight and showed big guts today. Hes got great stamina, he won’t wilt against you-know-who. 

He’s still got a load of years in front of him.

The Baby Fed thing was daft but he was young and had a hero, so sue him. There’s worse things to want to emulate.

bogbrush wrote:I wouldn’t dismiss Dimitrov. His real problem was that he became the official ATP Playboy, dating all & sundry.

Now I see a guy who looks to me like he’s dropped quite some weight and showed big guts today. Hes got great stamina, he won’t wilt against you-know-who. 

He’s still got a load of years in front of him.

The Baby Fed thing was daft but he was young and had a hero, so sue him. There’s worse things to want to emulate.

His real problem really is that he chokes. he is too nervous a player.

Tenez wrote:I am not sure either...but I think he is amongst the favourites. When you see how much he progressed in one year...he has now 6 months to get even better.

He is more impressive than federer at the same age....even if maybe less graceful.

I think it’s difficult to compare their talent, though Shapo plays with a 95” Yonex, which is a small head for a SBH-er, esp a teen whose older peers all have 100” racquets and a DBH.

Also he stands further back on returns than Fed, but maybe that’s how all this new gen are being taught.

Fed’s stamp is classic...

Shapo brings different joy in different times.

Shapovalov is the only young player I truly enjoy watching. Still, he is nowhere near as graceful as Fed. Does not mean that he cannot become similarly successful. Very long way to go though.

Purely in the grace department, I would have Dimi ahead of Shapovalov. But Dimi is mentally frail, and also Shapovalov's shots are more explosive.

summerblues wrote:
Purely in the grace department, I would have Dimi ahead of Shapovalov.  But Dimi is mentally frail, and also Shapovalov's shots are more explosive.

not me.

Thiem Sandgren....a gruelling match, especially from Thiem. So much energy and noise for a soft ball barely passing the net.

Let's get away from Fed and his records a bit. I foresee Shapo being the first player to win the calendar grand Slam since Road laver.

I saw a short yesterday of his match v Chung at the next gen final.....it was pretty close. Unless someone new as good comes along I don;t think he is going to be stoppable in .....a couple of years max!

I do think he has a good chance for Wimby this year already.

I am so glad for Shapo! (just in case anyone had any doubts  )

He is wonderful and unique in his own rightful way already.

I hope he fulfills his potential.

I also saw the full match vs Chung...he played so well in that tournament, but didn’t get to the final.

He very close to winning (incl Wimbledon this year).

He needs to add to his serve variation to relieve a bit of pressure.

Everything else looks fine.


He is a pleasure to watch, a completely new, young energy, different from Fed.

So good both are playing at the same time, this important overlap, handing over the torch or baton.

Maybe one day he’ll be saying: I played Federer, like it sound almost impossible Fed played Sampras or Agassi, Henman now because it was so long ago.

Tenez wrote:Let's get away from Fed and his records a bit. I foresee Shapo being the first player to win the calendar grand Slam since Road laver.

I saw a short yesterday of his match v Chung at the next gen final.....it was pretty close. Unless someone new as good comes along I don;t think he is going to be stoppable in .....a couple of years max!

I do think he has a good chance for Wimby this year already.

I don't think he's quite battle hardened yet.

Give him another 12 months and I reckon we'll see a Slam contender.

Important thing is he stays healthy!!

Yes next year for sure....but on grass....he is going tough this year already.

Back to the original Baby Fed, aka Fed.
Here are some shots when he was 18/19!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XBGGb0XzI

luvsports! wrote:Back to the original Baby Fed, aka Fed.
Here are some shots when he was 18/19!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XBGGb0XzI

And with an 85in racquet.

It's good to see a bit of tennis with much less spin...on fast surfaces.

luvsports! wrote:Back to the original Baby Fed, aka Fed.
Here are some shots when he was 18/19!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XBGGb0XzI

Coooo, he was good!

Shapo does remind me of him from those days, despite how much the game has changed since...in fact, it’s almost a miracle Shapo exists!

Tenez wrote:

luvsports! wrote:Back to the original Baby Fed, aka Fed.
Here are some shots when he was 18/19!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XBGGb0XzI

And with an 85in racquet.

That’s the first thing I thought of.

Amd what a FH as a result....

Tenez wrote:

It's good to see a bit of tennis with much less spin...on fast surfaces.

Indeed.

Pure tennis. No riff-raff.

luvsports! wrote:Back to the original Baby Fed, aka Fed.
Here are some shots when he was 18/19!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XBGGb0XzI

The truth is: it was more obvious back then that we were looking at a future multiple slam winner than it is now with Shapo.

gallery play wrote:

luvsports! wrote:Back to the original Baby Fed, aka Fed.
Here are some shots when he was 18/19!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XBGGb0XzI

The truth is: it was more obvious back then that we were looking at a future multiple slam winner than it is now with Shapo.

Yes, but in a relative way.

Imagine Fed turning up in this era of power biceps big racquet heads and spin.

At least he had a chance to grow and develop as a player in healthy tennis conditions when a BH was a BH be it SBH or DBH.

Now, DBH is a second FH due to spin and slow conditions.

Shap is going to be a multi slam winner.  I still think Kyrgios will win at least 2.  Zverev definitely will.  Who else is there when Fed and Nadal retire? Who can stop them?  This latest generation has been woeful for way too long.

Well all these you mentioned will be multi-slam winners, Korgi, Zverev, Shap, guess Dimi and CIlic will sneak a few too, Raonic maybe.

Take Fed/Rafa off a GS, seeing these ones in QF,SF,F all can win it.

Those clips of Fed at 18/19 are interesting. Clearly the talent was there and of course we will see the full extend of it 10 years later.

What really distinguishes Fed from the rest is that grace on the court: Making things look easy, effortless with time to spare.

That grace was perceptible from 2001...when he beat Pete in Wimbledon but even more obvious as he got past 2008. McEnroe also had that grace in 1984 he was then 25 I believe.

The environment to show such grace is more and more difficult. McEnroe had it easy when facing a Connors in 84 Wimbledon. The physical side of the game could not be compared with today's.
What's so amazing about Fed is that he displaying that excess of time to spare even nowadays.

My question is will Shapo show some of that grace as he matures?
I think so.