ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo

At what stage of the match did rain interrupt play?

What's going on ????

Kim Jong-Un wrote:What's going on ????

Betting again, are you?

Despite the close scoreline, such a flat and dull match...seats half empty...

It really was the final yesterday!

Finally some decent tennis...even if it took a 35 shot rally!

noleisthebest wrote:Conditions look quite heavy...even Berd can get to every ball

Can you imagine how easy it must to Djoko then.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Conditions look quite heavy...even Berd can get to every ball

Can you imagine how easy it must to Djoko then.

It should be easier for Berd as he can really put the ball away here, so much more power than Nole.

Bravo Nole!

Hearing his national anthem means as much if not more to Nole now than winning this tournament.

noleisthebest wrote:Hearing his national anthem means as much if not more to Nole now than winning this tournament.

Yep, and then after that he'll hear it again after taking the flight back home back to Serbi.... oh wait a sec

Not a bad start of the year for Noke...he's won everything worth winning more or less...

Two/three weeks of rest now followed by (Madrid)/Rome back to back.

I have a feeling he'll skip Madrid again. He loathes the place, or shall I say people there.

Federer suggested he may skip Rome (probably if he does well in Madrid)...

Nadal of course not skipping anything on clay, playing Barcelona next week.

Nah he ducked out of Delray Beach for fear of facing Karlovic. That is the big one missing from his resume.

Yes Djoko is having a better year than 2011. In 2011 he went through a spell without losing but I feel he was closer to lose a few match then whereas his wins this year have been quite convincing. That is the difference to me.

I agree.
In 2011 he was also fulfiling his dreams; it's always easier second time round, esp in his case (being so emotional).
It was a trance with pressure growing by the match.

He just looks very content atm so definitely in a much better and calmer place than in 2011...that was total madness, I'll never forget it, The Year of Poetic Fandom.

Interesting that he is winning more convncingly now, that just shows Nadal has hit glass ceiling with his fitness, although he looked scarily strong yesterday.

I'll believe he's beaten when/if Nole beats him in RG.

Hopefully he'll get a tiny bit of luck for once!!!

Last year's heat and sunshine were huge advantage for Nadal, and a few years before that the rain broke the match in two days when Nadal was beaten during day one part...

Not sure about that.

Yes he has posted a lot of bagels but at the Aus this year he was taken to a 5 setter and a 4 setter (Stan & Murray).
Then he lost 1 set and beat feds and murray in straights.

He won Dubai in '11 - beating feds in straights, loss to feds in straights in '15.
He posted 3 bagels in '11 compared to none at IW - but was taken to 3 sets both times vs feds and rafa.

Miami: Djoko had 3, final setters in 2015 and Miami 2011 lost even less games with just one 3 setter in the final vs rafa.

Monte Carlo he didnt take part in '11.
Djoko 2.0 I think was adapting to beat rafa and then dispatched him on clay in Madrid and Rome in straights when he had a fixed game plan.

So no he isnt winning easier now.

Nole never bagelled a top 10 player in a slam like he did BOTH Stan and Murray this year.

I really feel he is in total control in these conditions.

And he really had some very, very close wins in 2011...off the top of my head... I remember matches against Bellucci and Murray in Rome...he could have easily lost them.

Only fresh Fed can beat Nole (and on faster surfaces) now.

As I said with Nadal, I'll believe it if and when I see it in RG.

Tennis wise, Nole actually beat him there comfortably three times there...so just a matter of having a little bit of luck.

Just remember what easy draw Nadal had lcompared to Nole last RG...he came super fresh to the QF where he literally obliterated Ferrer and then Murray...he started the same way yesterday against Nole, but Nole was ready..still I could feel he struggled physically dueing the first set.

I knkw I keep going about it, but I have to...physicality from Nadal was mad yesterday.

luvsports! wrote:Not sure about that.

Yes he has posted a lot of bagels but at the Aus this year he was taken to a 5 setter and a 4 setter (Stan & Murray).
Then he lost 1 set and beat feds and murray in straights.

He won Dubai in '11 - beating feds in straights, loss to feds in straights in '15.
He posted 3 bagels in '11 compared to none at IW - but was taken to 3 sets both times vs feds and rafa.

Miami: Djoko had 3, final setters in 2015 and Miami 2011 lost even less games with just one 3 setter in the final vs rafa.

Monte Carlo he didnt take part in '11.
Djoko 2.0 I think was adapting to beat rafa and then dispatched him on clay in Madrid and Rome in straights when he had a fixed game plan.

So no he isnt winning easier now.

ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Rome, Italy; 08.05.2011; 1000; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 56
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R64 Bye N/A W
R32 Lukasz Kubot (POL) 141 W 6-0, 6-3 Stats
R16 Stan Wawrinka (SUI) 14 W 6-4, 6-1 Stats
Q Robin Soderling (SWE) 5 W 6-3, 6-0 Stats
S Andy Murray (GBR) 4 W 6-1, 3-6, 7-6(2) Stats Had MPs against.
W Rafael Nadal (ESP) 1 W 6-4, 6-4 Stats
This Event Points: 1,000, ATP Ranking: 2, Prize Money: €438,000
ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Madrid, Spain; 01.05.2011; 1000; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 56
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R64 Bye N/A W
R32 Kevin Anderson (RSA) 35 W 6-3, 6-4 Stats
R16 Guillermo Garcia-Lopez (ESP) 29 W 6-1, 6-2 Stats
Q David Ferrer (ESP) 6 W 6-4, 4-6, 6-3 Stats
S Thomaz Bellucci (BRA) 36 W 4-6, 6-4, 6-1 Stats
W Rafael Nadal (ESP) 1 W 7-5, 6-4 Stats
This Event Points: 1,000, ATP Ranking: 2, Prize Money: €590,000
Belgrade, Serbia; 25.04.2011; 250; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 28
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R32 Bye N/A W
R16 Adrian Ungur (ROU) 175 W 6-2, 6-3 Stats
Q Blaz Kavcic (SLO) 85 W 6-3, 6-2 Stats
S Janko Tipsarevic (SRB) 36 W W/O
W Feliciano Lopez (ESP) 37 W 7-6(4), 6-2 Stats
This Event Points: 250, ATP Ranking: 2, Prize Money: €66,500
ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami, FL, U.S.A.; 23.03.2011; 1000; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 96
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Bye N/A W
R64 Denis Istomin (UZB) 54 W 6-0, 6-1 Stats
R32 James Blake (USA) 173 W 6-2, 6-0 Stats
R16 Viktor Troicki (SRB) 17 W 6-3, 6-2 Stats
Q Kevin Anderson (RSA) 40 W 6-4, 6-2 Stats
S Mardy Fish (USA) 15 W 6-3, 6-1 Stats
W Rafael Nadal (ESP) 1 W 4-6, 6-3, 7-6(4) Stats very close!
This Event Points: 1,000, ATP Ranking: 2, Prize Money: $611,000
ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Indian Wells, CA, U.S.A.; 10.03.2011; 1000; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 96
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Bye N/A W
R64 Andrey Golubev (KAZ) 39 W 6-0, 6-4 Stats
R32 Ernests Gulbis (LAT) 34 W 6-0, 6-1 Stats
R16 Viktor Troicki (SRB) 18 W 6-0, 6-1 Stats
Q Richard Gasquet (FRA) 21 W 6-2, 6-4 Stats
S Roger Federer (SUI) 2 W 6-3, 3-6, 6-2 Stats
W Rafael Nadal (ESP) 1 W 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Stats
This Event Points: 1,000, ATP Ranking: 3, Prize Money: $611,000
Dubai, U.A.E.; 21.02.2011; 500; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R32 Michael Llodra (FRA) 27 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
R16 Feliciano Lopez (ESP) 41 W 6-3, 2-6, 6-4 Stats
Q Florian Mayer (GER) 38 W 7-5, 6-1 Stats
S Tomas Berdych (CZE) 7 W 6-7(5), 6-2, 4-2 RET Stats
W Roger Federer (SUI) 2 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
This Event Points: 500, ATP Ranking: 3, Prize Money: $386,000
Australian Open, Australia; 17.01.2011; GS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Marcel Granollers (ESP) 42 W 6-1, 6-3, 6-1 Stats
R64 Ivan Dodig (CRO) 81 W 7-5, 6-7(8), 6-0, 6-2 Stats
R32 Viktor Troicki (SRB) 27 W 6-2 RET Stats
R16 Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 14 W 6-3, 6-4, 6-0 Stats
Q Tomas Berdych (CZE) 6 W 6-1, 7-6(5), 6-1 Stats
S Roger Federer (SUI) 2 W 7-6(3), 7-5, 6-4 Stats
W Andy Murray (GBR) 5 W 6-4, 6-2, 6-3 Stats
This Event Points: 2,000, ATP Ranking: 3, Prize Money: A$2,200,000

Well one you gone a long way past the MC equivalent. 

So in 2015 he has 9 times been taken past straight sets (5th set and 4th set in aus) and has lost twice. 

In 2011 in the same time he had been taken past straight sets 5 times, with no losses. 
Even if you put in the two, 3 setters in madrid 2011 he still is ploughing through the opposition with less sets completed.

I remember all those matches very clearly.

Nole was winning them with his confidence more than anything else.

The only match he did not "enjoy" this year would've been yesterday's SF against Nadal.

I don't think he minded Dubai loss to Fed, it was pure tennis, he was outplayed.

Against Nadal it's just that horrible mental discipline Nole has to impose on himself in order keep focus and sustain all Nadal's physicality while it lasts.

Not to miss an easy overhead, touch the net...that kind of things!

Looks easy, but it obviously is not for him.

In the best of 5 in Paris anything can happen...weather can change (and that really affects clay more than any other surface) it can get too dark for playing, no roof...so many factors.

If Nole can beat Rafa at RG, I think he could finally have his number in slams. He is 4-0 post aus '12 vs rafa in slams.

I think Djoko beats his main rivals with more ease today than in 2011....and that is what matters. The only one really giving him trouble is still Federer. But is essentially because Federer moved to a bigger frame. I am pretty sure Fed would have lost Dubai had he played with teh old one....it was pretty close and fed played out of his skin.

Well Djoko beat rafa in 4sets at US and Wimby in '11 but hasn't beaten rafa since aus '12 (lost last 4 in slams). So we shall see come the french.

luvsports! wrote:Well Djoko beat rafa in 4sets at US and Wimby in '11 but hasn't beaten rafa since aus '12 (lost last 4 in slams). So we shall see come the french.

But Djoko is less dominant the second part of 2011.

Yes but I mean he won 42 straight matches!
Winning 3 of the 4 slams!
Up until US Open he had lost twice! 
After then his body was broken and he was the shadow of himself after a phenomenal 9 months. 

We shall see how it goes.

Nadal is a lot worse than he was in 2011, Federer is probably marginally worse.

luvsports! wrote:Yes but I mean he won 42 straight matches!
Winning 3 of the 4 slams!
Up until US Open he had lost twice! 
After then his body was broken and he was the shadow of himself after a phenomenal 9 months. 

We shall see how it goes.

Tennis is much tougher in 2015 than in 2011.

If you don't believe me, believe Nole who said in his post-match interview yesterday that he is playing the best tennis of his life.

Again, we are back to how tennis has changed and why nobody is able to dominate like in the past.

In fact, Nole HAS BEEN dominating all 2015..many of his opponents from 2011 have burnt out and fallen away/behind: Tsonga, Soderling, Delpo...

Doesn't matter.
Away from that I showed he won more comprehensively in 2011 - therefore more dominant. 
Stats - you cannot argue with them.

luvsports! wrote:Doesn't matter.
Away from that I showed he won more comprehensively in 2011 - therefore more dominant. 
Stats - you cannot argue with them.

What do these stats tell us?

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=D402

That matchups are very important.

Just read that apart from being the first to win first three Masters 1000 of the season, Nole has also broken the record of the of points between number one and number two ranked players: 5460!

So...he wasn't able to do that in 2011...

That is certainly a pretty good criteria for "consistency"!.

noleisthebest wrote:Just read that apart from being the first to win first three Masters 1000 of the season, Nole has also broken the record of the of points between number one and number two ranked players: 5460!

So...he wasn't able to do that in 2011...

Yes obviously because he started in 3rd...

luvsports! wrote:Yes but I mean he won 42 straight matches!
Winning 3 of the 4 slams!
Up until US Open he had lost twice! 
After then his body was broken and he was the shadow of himself after a phenomenal 9 months. 

We shall see how it goes.

It doesn't mean much really. Djoko went through an amazing streak I agree but I think it is obvious he has widened the gap between his toughest competitors (Murray and Nadal) but also the rest of the tour. His ranking points simply confirm that.

End of 2011, beginning of 2012 Nadal and Murray had closed the gap. I don't think those 2 will and the only ones who will be able to catch him up are the younger ones.....none of his generation. I am pretty sure of this.

noleisthebest wrote:Who do you think would have won the remaining slams?

It's not only those finals the two met, but also the dented confidence Nadal had to live with.

2012 AO final took a lot out of him.

As for yesterdays's match not being physical...it doesn't have to go to three sets these days for it to be exhausting.
Physicality is in the energy spent in ball-striking, and both players, especially Nadal were hitting it extremely hard.

That is why Nadal appeared tired to you and that is why we are seeing so many bagel sets these days.

Yes, I know, this was about Nadal, Nadal of all people , looking tired, not anyone. This guy for years was the benchmark for fitness in tennis, only about to be matched by Djokovic since 2011.

The question of who would have won the remaining slams in a world without Djokovic is certainly interesting, but in the end impossible to answer. I believe thought that the slam record wouldn't be 17 in that case. Just imagine the AO 11 without Djokovic, can't see Murray beating Fed there. Cilic would have had a good chance to win Wimbledon 14, Tsonga the AO 08 though I'd favour Fed in those match-ups.

The AO 12 final took a lot out of both guys and that was on Djokovic's best surface. Nadal seemed to gain confidence after that. Next thing he beat Djokovic at MC and at Rome in straight sets. He won RG as usual and was in trouble in the first week of Wimbledon as usual, this time losing a close match instead of edging it. He disappeared after that either due to injury or to a silent ban, depending on your beliefs.

I don't think Noke has matched Nadal in fitness.

Nadal is still steonger and fitter than Nole, so is Murray.

Nole's advantage is his weight, he consumes less ixygen as he has less muscle and also does not muscle the ball as much as the other two.
It all makes a difference over a few sets which is why he is able to outlast Murray and just MAYBE match Nadal after 4 sets if the weather is not too hot on clay.

Tenez wrote:It doesn't mean much really. Djoko went through an amazing streak I agree but I think it is obvious he has widened the gap between his toughest competitors (Murray and Nadal) but also the rest of the tour. His ranking points simply confirm that. 

End of 2011, beginning of 2012 Nadal and Murray had closed the gap. I don't think those 2 will and the only ones who will be able to catch him up are the younger ones.....none of his generation. I am pretty sure of this.

Agree that the gap is widening between Djokovic and ATP and that his peers won't challenge him from now on (barring loss of form).

But which younger player do you honestly see challenging him any time soon? When Federer was the dominant player, you could already see young players beginning to make their marks. Now they all seem to miss something, they're not complete. As a consequence the best ranked youngish player is Raonic at No. 5.

noleisthebest wrote:I don't think Noke has matched Nadal in fitness.

Nadal is still steonger and fitter than Nole, so is Murray.

Nole's advantage is his weight, he consumes less ixygen as he has less muscle and also does not muscle the ball as much as the other two.
It all makes a difference over a few sets which is why he is able to outlast Murray and just MAYBE match Nadal after 4 sets if the weather is not too hot on clay.

Sure, Djokovic is more efficient in his technique/ movement, but his strength to weight ratio must be second to none, maybe the highest in ATP. The guy looks to be without even a gram of unnecessary weight without losing power because of it. Incredible athlete.

Autumnleaf wrote:But which younger player do you honestly see challenging him any time soon? When Federer was the dominant player, you could already see young players beginning to make their marks. Now they all seem to miss something, they're not complete. As a consequence the best ranked youngish player is Raonic at No. 5.

Yes but Federer was essentially unlucky to have emerged while technology, pace conds and fitness were moving rapidly. Djoko has been evolving in a very stable environment in that respect. Same technology than in 2000, same pace all over surfaces, and the physical demand of today's game has simply delayed the arrival of youngsters at the top. It's ideal conditions for Djoko, Murray and Nadal....and whoever has the means to get the best doctors. This is in my view what sorts the top 4 (bar Fed it seems) from the rest.

Playing those long rallies is a real science, a "retrieving" science. Yesterday again, I was amazed at balls Djoko  (and Nadal the day before) was able to bring back. It is really a huge physical advantage, really affecting the mental strength of any attacking player.

So essentially none so far?

Autumnleaf wrote:So essentially none so far?

I am pretty sure a few will beat him very soon. It's very difficult to stay at the top for long, especially when so much fitness is required.

A big chunk of his ATP points lead will be eaten up by year end. Some youngsters just need to grow in confidence.

For me, it will have to someone with weapons but also light/good movement.

Of all current youngsters, only Kurgyos  seems to fit the profile.
He has TWO weapons - serve and FH and a big game.
Unlike Vesely, he is looser, more consistent and not so
heavy on his feet.

Unfortunately, he seems to be fragile...probably doesn't like to spend much time in the gym and then his joints suffer because of the lack of muscle conditioning with current physical demands of the week in-week-out competition.

Autumnleaf wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:I don't think Noke has matched Nadal in fitness.

Nadal is still steonger and fitter than Nole, so is Murray.

Nole's advantage is his weight, he consumes less ixygen as he has less muscle and also does not muscle the ball as much as the other two.
It all makes a difference over a few sets which is why he is able to outlast Murray and just MAYBE match Nadal after 4 sets if the weather is not too hot on clay.

Sure, Djokovic is more efficient in his technique/ movement, but his strength to weight ratio must be second to none, maybe the highest in ATP. The guy looks to be without even a gram of unnecessary weight without losing power because of it. Incredible athlete.

I actually disagree...I don't see him as strong (upper body power) at all compared to most players. His legs are the biggest weapon.
I would say he probably has the best stamina as a result. He is even all throughout matches, doesn't burn bright like Murray and then drop like a lead balloon when his tank empties.
Dolgo and Nishi can get a lot more pace out of their smaller bodies thanks to cleaner ball-striking.

I'd say Ferrer has the best ratio.

He is considerably smaller and lighter than most top players but you wouldn't notice by the way he plays.

noleisthebest wrote:I actually disagree...I don't see him as strong (upper body power) at all compared to most players. His legs are the biggest weapon.
I would say he probably has the best stamina as a result. He is even all throughout matches, doesn't burn bright like Murray and then drop like a lead balloon when his tank empties.
Dolgo and Nishi can get a lot more pace out of their smaller bodies thanks to cleaner ball-striking.

I'd say Ferrer has the best ratio.

He is considerably smaller and lighter than most top players but you wouldn't notice by the way he plays.

The thing is ferrer is too short to generate that safe power djoko provides. Though Ferrer is certainly very strong and fit, his size is really limitating. Djoko, surprising moves faster, hits harder despite being taller. The only one who could rival with Djoko's pace/power/height is Monfils....but this latter is a nutcase. Monfils certainly looks like a very natural athlete...Djoko certainly less but made up for it.

Tenez wrote:Playing those long rallies is a real science, a "retrieving" science. Yesterday again, I was amazed at balls Djoko  (and Nadal the day before) was able to bring back. It is really a huge physical advantage, really affecting the mental strength of any attacking player.

...or the "modern" (actually "hybrid" sounds more suitable) tennis...transformed into a different sport, so close and yet so far from its "organic" predecessor.

I don't think it is hybrid. Modern retrieving yes, but I do not see a "mixture" there. It is simply the new retrieving form. Of course they will pull winners at times. But they choose to win by containing winners, preventing even attackers to go for winners.

I don't see hybrid as a mixture, but a separate form - it has a semblance but no life as it can't reproduce...clone would probably be a better word.

Like roses you buy in supermarkets...look beautiful but have no fragrance...and what is a rose without its heady fragrance?

The annoying thing everything can be reverted to its original form so easily....and it would be better for tennis in the long run...but it's all about profit now.

Racquets need to be controlled....or balls, ideally to ban dbh.

Tennis talents don't grow on trees and it's unreasonable to expect one to come out of nowhere.
At least it looks like that right now.

But having said that, things seem to be getting better.
Slowly and not in a dramatic way...

Maybe I am biased as I don't see Nole the same as Nadal, I don't get that feeling of being physically and mentally bludgeoned when I watch him like I do when I watch Nadal.

I can see the end result is the same but the method looks different. Nadal's looks violent, Nole's doesn't.

Djoko is not like Nadal but a kind of Hewitt. The 3 of them kill the spirit of the sport. Tennis should be a "shot maker" sport.

noleisthebest wrote:For me,  it will have to someone with weapons but also light/good movement.

Of all current youngsters, only Kurgyos  seems to fit the profile.
He has TWO weapons - serve and FH and a big game.
Unlike Vesely, he is looser, more consistent and not so
heavy on his feet.

Unfortunately, he seems to be fragile...probably doesn't like to spend much time in the gym and then his joints suffer because of the lack of muscle conditioning with current physical demands of the week in-week-out competition.

Yes, that's why I can't see him challenging for No. 1. I'd tip him for a slam winner. But in recent times you needed day-in, day-out consistency for the top ranking. Maybe that will change and we'll go to another period of multiple contenders? Can't say I'd mind.

Not sure how his game translates to clay, haven't seen him on the red stuff, but I'd suspect it's not his best surface.

noleisthebest wrote:I actually disagree...I don't see him as strong (upper body power) at all compared to most players. His legs are the biggest weapon.
I would say he probably has the best stamina as a result. He is even all throughout matches, doesn't burn bright like Murray and then drop like a lead balloon when his tank empties.
Dolgo and Nishi can get a lot more pace out of their smaller bodies thanks to cleaner ball-striking.

I'd say Ferrer has the best ratio.

He is considerably smaller and lighter than most top players but you wouldn't notice by the way he plays.

Yes, less weight means better stamina. Djokovic is very muscular on the whole body. Every gramm of his body weight is functional, lean muscle mass, so he doesn't suffer from loss of power by being lighter. Even with the best of techniques you still need to generate the power from somewhere, ideally via the whole kinetic chain, using muscles from legs, trunk upwards which Djokovic does very well.

You also need power to generate bursts of speed in movement, just look at sprinters, they are huge. (they can be because of less demand for stamina) And tennis players have to change direction too which makes it even harder. Now Djokovic is one of the fastest guys in the business, the best defender in the game at the moment (also thanks to his flexibility).

Imv he benefits from being this lean (fatigues later) while still being this muscular (can generate his own power).

Ferrer seems to be rather heavy to me for his height tbh.