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ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo

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ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo - Page 2 Empty Re: ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo

Post by summerblues on Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:29 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Genuinely struggling to come up with a more useless uninformative measure than weeks at number 1.
smiley

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Post by HIS20RY on Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:54 am

If you read on, I do qualify that catchy line of mine with some explanations and qualifications. No need to bother unless you're not open minded though.

I remember first having the debate in v2, comparing Hewitt's 2002 to Murray's 2012. If you adjusted for the ranking point changes, Murray actually got more ranking points in 2012 than Hewitt did in 2002. However the spread of other people's results over the remaining ranking points were such that Hewitt was ranked number 1 at the end of 2002, while Murray was number 3 at the end of 2012.
Does the fact other people split the remaining points differently mean Murray's year was worse than Hewitt's- despite getting more ranking points ?

Also comparing Nadal and Djokovic- we don't know what they'll do for the rest of their careers, but let's examine their careers so far. Djokovic has more weeks at number 1. Nadal however has:
-6 more Grand Slam wins
-More Grand Slam wins even if you don't count best venue (i.e. FO for Nadal, AO for Djokovic)
-More tournament wins at all levels
-More matches won
-Better ratio of matches won to matches entered
-Better ratio of tournaments won to tournaments entered
-More years with multi-slams than Djokovic

At best, ranking position is a reflective measure, i.e. it's simply a result of doing well in tournaments over a 12 month period.
And as I explained on page 1 of the thread, even as a measure of that it's pretty woeful, and these two examples above are further evidence of that.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:06 am

A glorious sunny day in Monte Carlo ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo - Page 2 3755116760

Some super matches today, and Match of the Day already in!

Thiem-Pouille

Two talented young players with lots of guile and flair! chef


Allez Lucas diva

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:17 am

Nole's complained about the state of courts in MC, saying they are full of holes.

That may have caused Pouille to miss that easy BH, but he manages to break back thanks to Thiem's DF.

I hope he does not return the choking favour and serves the set out now.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:20 am

and he did. Thiem looks out of comfort on clay.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:23 am

What do you make of Thiem's FH, T?

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:09 am

Great win for Pouille!

It will mean the world to him.


Shame Thiem is out, tjough. Nice, attacking player, but as I keep saying, it's tough to play such a physical FH on and inside the baseline.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:22 am

noleisthebest wrote:What do you make of Thiem's FH, T?

It can be good. But I did not see the match today....just the result but I only saw that he stands too far back. On hot clay a DHBH is such a huge advantage..not that surprised that Puoille won.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:26 am

I thought BH was not Pouille's advantage today, the other way round, in fact.

If he wants to muscle his FH, Thiem really needs to work on his technique as his swing is too big/slow for his style of play.

I really like how he plays, just that his FH is not allowing him to be fluent with the instinct.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:29 am

Chardy-Schwartzmann starting, that should be a lovely one to watch provided there is a stream...

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:19 pm

Nole time! diva

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Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:49 pm

So Pouille to meet Nadal! That should be interesting! Facing Nadal's spinny ball for the first time is going to be his greatest challenge...but once he'll get used to it, it's going to be easy......it might take a few matches tough.

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Post by HIS20RY on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:57 pm

ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo - Page 2 Image11

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Post by truffin1 on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:03 pm

Tenez wrote:and he did. Thiem looks out of comfort on clay.

Guess that clay court clinic with Fed didn't do as much for Thiem as he had hoped!!

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Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:24 pm

Yep...

I also fear that Stan is going to lose tomorrow and get out of the top 10 next week.

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Post by Tenez on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:44 pm

Kim Jong-Un wrote:If you read on, I do qualify that catchy line of mine with some explanations and qualifications. No need to bother unless you're not open minded though.

I remember first having the debate in v2, comparing Hewitt's 2002 to Murray's 2012. If you adjusted for the ranking point changes, Murray actually got more ranking points in 2012 than Hewitt did in 2002. However the spread of other people's results over the remaining ranking points were such that Hewitt was ranked number 1 at the end of 2002, while Murray was number 3 at the end of 2012.
Does the fact other people split the remaining points differently mean Murray's year was worse than Hewitt's- despite getting more ranking points ?

Also comparing Nadal and Djokovic- we don't know what they'll do for the rest of their careers, but let's examine their careers so far. Djokovic has more weeks at number 1. Nadal however has:
-6 more Grand Slam wins
-More Grand Slam wins even if you don't count best venue (i.e. FO for Nadal, AO for Djokovic)
-More tournament wins at all levels
-More matches won
-Better ratio of matches won to matches entered
-Better ratio of tournaments won to tournaments entered
-More years with multi-slams than Djokovic

At best, ranking position is a reflective measure, i.e. it's simply a result of doing well in tournaments over a 12 month period.
And as I explained on page 1 of the thread, even as a measure of that it's pretty woeful, and these two examples above are further evidence of that.
Just FYI, There has been over 50 slam winners in the open era. Only 25 have been number 1. So to me it confirms that being number 1, even one week is better than winning a slam.

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Post by noleisthebest on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:26 pm

Amazing day of tennis tomorrow, I wish I had three pairs of eyes to see it all!

At one stage it will be: nadal-Pouille, Fognini-Dimitrov    , and Simon-Paire...all AT THE SAME TIME!!! tongueout

and then there is Dolgo-Le Monf plus Fed-Chardy, I am not going anywhere!!!

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Post by HIS20RY on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:31 am

Tenez, try to actually constructively deal with my argument, rather than irrelevant posts.

edit: The fact that less people have reached number 1 than have won a slam is obvious, but it is not in itself an argument against what I'm saying.


Last edited by Kim Jong-Un on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by sphairistike on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:40 am

What about you Kim? You never addressed my latest post in reply to yours...

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Post by HIS20RY on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:06 am

sphairistike wrote:What about you Kim? You never addressed my latest post in reply to yours...
Where ? I thought I did, maybe I missed it.

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Post by HIS20RY on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:12 am

Ah yes, I've checked page 1 now, and I did miss it.

Again I think the point you raise is frankly irrelevant. If you look at Nadal and Djokovic, Nadal has won more tournaments and picked up more ranking points.  This is despite the fact Nadal has missed quite a lot of the tour through injury.
Frankly your point is just a bit of a cheap shot at players who are injury prone rather than a sensible reasonable point as to why ranking position should be looked at rather than overall ranking points throughout career and ranking points obtained/ possible ranking points. You don't have to look at weeks at number 1 to see that Nadal is injury prone, anyone who follows Nadal can see that.
And you didn't have rebuttal against any of my points.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:00 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Tenez, try to actually constructively deal with my argument, rather than irrelevant posts.

edit: The fact that less people have reached number 1 than have won a slam is obvious, but it is not in itself an argument against what I'm saying.

It means it is harder to be number 1 than winning a slam....at least it is a more select club. So staying at the top is harder than anything else. Something Nadal did ok but not better than others...essentially because he is too much of a clay specialist. Had been able to rule as well on the other surfaces he woudl have been a long lasting number 1.

It's very simple but of course you don;t want to see it. Like you don;t want to see why he has been prone to so called injuries.

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Post by HIS20RY on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:21 am

Tenez wrote:

It means it is harder to be number 1 than winning a slam....at least it is a more select club.
Again, pay attention Tenez. I have never said that Slam wins are a substitute statistics for ranking position, they are clearly quite different measures.
I lined out what I would use instead of ranking position, ranking points and the ratio of ranking points/ possible points in tournaments played. If you made a overall leaderboard, getting to number 1 in that would be even more select.

As for your second point, I've already addressed that. There are many other factors when looking at surface distribution, and in this era of homogenisation you have to proceed with caution before jumping to conclusions. Djokovic is better statistically at AO than USO, but this is more to do with factors such as timing, form at the time, confidence at venue etc. than any real difference between the surfaces. But once again, there are far better ways of looking at surface distribution than ranking position anyway.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:29 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Tenez wrote:

It means it is harder to be number 1 than winning a slam....at least it is a more select club.
Again, pay attention Tenez. I have never said that Slam wins are a substitute statistics for ranking position, they are clearly quite different measures.
I lined out what I would use instead of ranking position, ranking points and the ratio of ranking points/ possible points in tournaments played. If you made a overall leaderboard, getting to number 1 in that would be even more select.

As for your second point, I've already addressed that. There are many other factors when looking at surface distribution, and in this era of homogenisation you have to proceed with caution before jumping to conclusions. Djokovic is better statistically at AO than USO, but this is more to do with factors such as timing, form at the time, confidence at venue etc. than any real difference between the surfaces.

Cilic will never be number one, yet he won a slam.

Nadal is too 1d to be considered anything but a clay specialist. And I don't even consoder him a good clay-court player btw.
Without that huge left bicep, he'd be struggling to win a challenger.
And we all know how that bicep works...and what makes it works...and why it's allowed to work.

You are pushing sh*t uphill, Kimmy.
Enjoy Nadal for what he gives you, but don't try to prop him into something he is not.

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Post by HIS20RY on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:33 am

noleisthebest wrote:
And I don't even consoder him a good clay-court player btw.
Alright then.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:36 am

Finally on the sofa watching!!! diva

Looks like Stan wasted no time dispatching Rafa's best friend.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:37 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
And I don't even consoder him a good clay-court player btw.
Alright then.

No courage to include the rest of the paragraph, let alone comment on it?

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Post by HIS20RY on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:39 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
And I don't even consoder him a good clay-court player btw.
Alright then.

No courage to include the rest of the paragraph, let alone comment on it?
Well the first point was talking about comparing Slams to number 1 rankings which was exactly the same point Tenez made, and I've already replied to that.
The rest of your post was you saying how Nadal isn't good on clay or whatever- frankly when it comes down to argument on whether 'Nadal is good on clay'- there isn't much point in it in my opinion.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:44 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
And I don't even consoder him a good clay-court player btw.
Alright then.

No courage to include the rest of the paragraph, let alone comment on it?
Well the first point was talking about comparing Slams to number 1 rankings which was exactly the same point Tenez made, and I've already replied to that.
The rest of your post was you saying how Nadal isn't good on clay or whatever- frankly when it comes down to argument on whether 'Nadal is good on clay'- there isn't much point in it in my opinion.

Why not?
Because of all the titles he won on it?

Just look how he is winning his match ...moonballing ...I'd be ashamed to play like that.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:45 am

Shame Pouille threw that game away...missed easy FHs.
Must be the way all that spin reacts off his strings.

ALLEZ Lucas!!!! diva

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Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:49 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Tenez wrote:

It means it is harder to be number 1 than winning a slam....at least it is a more select club.
Again, pay attention Tenez. I have never said that Slam wins are a substitute statistics for ranking position, they are clearly quite different measures.
I lined out what I would use instead of ranking position, ranking points and the ratio of ranking points/ possible points in tournaments played. If you made a overall leaderboard, getting to number 1 in that would be even more select.
No...this is an absurd point. Ranking as is is already over a limited number of tournaments. The difficulty is actually to play well week in week out and prevents the oneD players like Boris Becker on grass or the Bruguera/Nadal/Muster types to be number one for too long.

As for your second point, I've already addressed that. There are many other factors when looking at surface distribution, and in this era of homogenisation you have to proceed with caution before jumping to conclusions. Djokovic is better statistically at AO than USO, but this is more to do with factors such as timing, form at the time, confidence at venue etc. than any real difference between the surfaces. But once again, there are far better ways of looking at surface distribution than ranking position anyway.
It is fair to say that without federer Djoko woudl have grabbed quite a few more USOs. This is actually exposing your bias once again. nadal was able to hide and avoid federer on faster surfaces and Djoko, as we know, strangely systematically, ended up in Fed's corner. This is why there is more to read than winning slams.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:52 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Tenez wrote:

It means it is harder to be number 1 than winning a slam....at least it is a more select club.
Again, pay attention Tenez. I have never said that Slam wins are a substitute statistics for ranking position, they are clearly quite different measures.
I lined out what I would use instead of ranking position, ranking points and the ratio of ranking points/ possible points in tournaments played. If you made a overall leaderboard, getting to number 1 in that would be even more select.
No...this is an absurd point. Ranking as is is already over a limited number of tournaments. The difficulty is actually to play well week in week out and prevents the oneD players like Boris Becker on grass or the Bruguera/Nadal/Muster types to be number one for too long.

As for your second point, I've already addressed that. There are many other factors when looking at surface distribution, and in this era of homogenisation you have to proceed with caution before jumping to conclusions. Djokovic is better statistically at AO than USO, but this is more to do with factors such as timing, form at the time, confidence at venue etc. than any real difference between the surfaces. But once again, there are far better ways of looking at surface distribution than ranking position anyway.
It is fair to say that without federer Djoko woudl have grabbed quite a few more USOs. This is actually exposing your bias once again. nadal was able to hide and avoid federer on faster surfaces and Djoko, as we know, strangely systematically, ended up in Fed's corner. This is why there is more to read than winning slams.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:53 am

It's amazing how many points Nadal gets just moonballing and waiting for UEs.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:55 am

Yes, so embarrassing...but his fans can't even see it.

King of clay my foot!

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Post by HIS20RY on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:56 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Why not?
Because of all the titles he won on it?

Just look how he is winning his match ...moonballing ...I'd be ashamed to play like that.
Whether you think his style is pleasing to watch does not influence how good he is on the surface. Nadal is a good clay court player, I know you listen to Tenez and get carried away sometimes, but listen to me here. Winking

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:56 am

Clay in MC looks quite slow this year.

Where's Nadal disappeared after the first set?

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:57 am

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Why not?
Because of all the titles he won on it?

Just look how he is winning his match ...moonballing ...I'd be ashamed to play like that.
Whether you think his style is pleasing to watch does not influence how good he is on the surface. Nadal is a good clay court player, I know you listen to Tenez and get carried away sometimes, but listen to me here. Winking

It's got nothing to do with pleasing to watch.

If you played tennis you'd understand how degrading it is to moonball....

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Post by HIS20RY on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:59 am

Tenez wrote:
No...this is an absurd point. Ranking as is is already over a limited number of tournaments. The difficulty is actually to play well week in week out and prevents the oneD players like Boris Becker on grass or the Bruguera/Nadal/Muster types to be number one for too long.
You yourself said that Nadal on the last few years is as good on hard courts as he is on clay. If you want I can bring out the quote.


It is fair to say that without federer Djoko woudl have grabbed quite a few more USOs. This is actually exposing your bias once again. nadal was able to hide and avoid federer on faster surfaces and Djoko, as we know, strangely systematically, ended up in Fed's corner. This is why there is more to read than winning slams.
I don't think Djokovic would have won more USOs even if he wasn't in Federer's half. The matches where he lost to Fed in the SF, he probably would have lost against him in finals too.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:00 pm

I saw Pouille is scheduled to play that end of year tennis circus in Asia.

So, he must be seen as lucrative, which is good.
I'd love him to take off soon, quite an exciting player, just needs a bit of confidence to get the momentum.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:03 pm

Judging by the length of rallies, no prize for guessing why Nadal disappeared to toilet between the sets.

Depressing.


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Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:11 pm

I am a bit disappointed by Pouille....His footwork is poor, and his ground shots lack pace....we saw a very different player in AO.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:13 pm

I think his FH has good pace.

Clay looks pretty damp today, can't be easy to generate much pace esp on those moonballs...


Nadal receiving serve almost sat on that court microphone next to the seats...

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:15 pm

Pouile looks upset with himself.
He probably can't believe The King of Clay either.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:18 pm

he looks chubby actually. he has some talent but he really need to work in his athleticism. It's no point having great shots if he can't get to the ball.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:24 pm

His footwork was good in AO.

I don't think he's chubby, just strongly built, like Stan.
He'll never be lean like Fed.

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ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo - Page 2 Empty Re: ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo

Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:42 pm

Interesting to see the latest technology showing distance covered:



I'd love to see ball trajectory measured the same way...esp Nadal's moonballs.

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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:48 pm

Forget about King of clay...King of tennis taking stage, enjoy while you can!!! Magic


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Post by noleisthebest on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:49 pm

Oooh....I missed him...

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ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo - Page 2 Empty Re: ATP Masters 1000: Monte Carlo

Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:51 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Interesting to see the latest technology showing distance covered:



I'd love to see ball trajectory measured the same way...esp Nadal's moonballs.

Yes...woudl be good if this information was available online....for every single match.

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Post by Tenez on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:52 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Interesting to see the latest technology showing distance covered:


I'd love to see ball trajectory measured the same way...esp Nadal's moonballs.
they do at times.....in on average a meter above everybody else. But I don't know whether they account for the serve cause that woudl help reduce the average considerably.

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