Armstrong might lose all his titles!

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:However he says that:

Asked if doping was part of the process required to win the Tour, he said: "That's like saying we have to have air in our tyres or water in our bottles. It was part of the job.

...and tennis is no different....unless, maybe, and only maybe, you have as much technique and talent as Federer, or you accept to be ranked in the low 20 like Llodra.

What would be more efficient in solving the doping problem: ridiculous zero tolerance controlling or turning the tour into what it looked like in its early days: wooden racquets and fast grass everywhere.
Or stg else...

There is no way you can completely get rid of doping as they can even dope in snooker. BUt certainly by reducing the rallies length and speeding up the conditions you woudl certainly have many players who woudl feel the risk of doping might not be worthwhile. I also mentioned many times the need to stick on a daily basis with the top 5 or 10 players.....where the money is. Until we do that doping will still be big.

So its not that difficult.
Why don't they do it then?
Why does not Federer demand it at those Players Council meetings?
He is the top dog representing players, isn't he?
What has he got to lose?

noleisthebest wrote:Some say tennis is rotten to the bone, I'm struggling to accept it at the moment as I don't know how I can cope with it to be honest.
If I knew players were doping, my conscience would not allow me to watch a single match any more. So I am waiting and hoping that something changes soon, and this Fuentes case could be the beginning. A very faint hope, but better than no hope.

I am still tempted to say "wake up" to the real world NITB!

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Some say tennis is rotten to the bone, I'm struggling to accept it at the moment as I don't know how I can cope with it to be honest.
If I knew players were doping, my conscience would not allow me to watch a single match any more. So I am waiting and hoping that something changes soon, and this Fuentes case could be the beginning. A very faint hope, but better than no hope.

I am still tempted to say "wake up" to the real world NITB!

Yes, it's for the likes of people with that attitude this keeps going on.
In the natural cycle of things, this trend just can't go on, it will self-destruct, like with LA and cycling.

Money and commercialism have already destroyed music and sport.

As far as music is concerned I am living in the past, with sport, (ok just tennis) I'm clinging onto the cliff with my nails.

noleisthebest wrote:So its not that difficult.
Why don't they do it then?
Why does not Federer demand it at those Players Council meetings?
He is the top dog representing players, isn't he?
What has he got to lose?

Because even him agrees and makes as much money cause sport is a lucrative business. AT teh end of the day not many people want to see Davydenko or Stackovsky dominating the sport cause sponsors would simply find a more glamorous sport...if they cannot turn Davydenko into a selling machine. SPorts need characters and they will do what it takes to help those characters succeed. Once you have chracters at the top of the sport, sponsors come in and all the athletes benefit. Federer said so when he admitted to finally understand the phenomenon that was Nadal. Nadal was simply a great addition to the sport...whether we like it or not.

They made things too easy for him for my liking but he still made the sport more popular. That is the bigger picture which Federer understands...and this is why the AO can afford more money in the first rounds now.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Some say tennis is rotten to the bone, I'm struggling to accept it at the moment as I don't know how I can cope with it to be honest.
If I knew players were doping, my conscience would not allow me to watch a single match any more. So I am waiting and hoping that something changes soon, and this Fuentes case could be the beginning. A very faint hope, but better than no hope.

I am still tempted to say "wake up" to the real world NITB!

Yes, it's for the likes of people with that attitude this keeps going on.
In the natural cycle of things, this trend just can't go on, it will self-destruct, like with LA and cycling.

Money and commercialism have already destroyed music and sport.

As far as music is concerned I am living in the past, with sport, (ok just tennis) I'm clinging onto the cliff with my nails.

BUt again the bigger picture is more people cycle in america thanks to LA and that is a very good thing.

It's no different for religions actually. I don't think prophetes wanted to have religions taken by those who did. Peter and Paul were certainly not Jesus favourites disciples (Paul was not even one), yet those 2 knew where to go to spread the religion to the masses (prbably to use it as a power tool). They went to the lion's den (Rome) and from there it allowed the religion to spread better than it woudl have done otherwise. Helped of course by the powers using the religion to control the masses. It's a strange game where we constantly need to see and understand the bigger picture.

Tenez wrote:
BUt again the bigger picture is more people cycle in america thanks to LA and that is a very good thing.

It's no different for religions actually. I don't think prophetes wanted to have religions taken by those who did. Peter and Paul were certainly not Jesus favourites disciples (Paul was not even one), yet those 2 knew where to go to spread the religion to the masses (prbably to use it as a power tool). They went to the lion's den (Rome) and from there it allowed the religion to spread better than it woudl have done otherwise. Helped of course by the powers using the religion to control the masses. It's a strange game where we constantly need to see and understand the bigger picture.

I'm afraid there's not a lot to understand here. It has always been the same old story called: greed.
Since I've been a child and even, all my life really, I have been inspired by athletes sometimes the sheer perseverance, character and grit (Nole), sometimes for utter beauty (Federer), sometimes for personality and skill (Ben Johnson).

How beautiful does it feel to cross the line free from all the dirt the world is trying to weigh you down?

Ask Da Silva.

Characters come and go, today's media can manufacture anything they like. I am sure they could even make Davydenko into a poster boy if they really wanted.

So, I'm still hopeful and waiting because I know I am not alone.

I like to understand the bigger picture. I am greedy myself too so understanding where that greed leads me to and what lessons I can learn from it is part of the process. Being a fan of tennis makes me part of that system we criticise....but in all this mess I am still glad I can enjoy and see the talent of Federer...or even a Llodra and Davydenko...who are also part of it all.

That's an interesting, revealing part. From Oreally his former masseuse.

"I had only ever spoken about it because I hated seeing what some of the riders were going through, because not all the riders were comfortable with cheating as Lance was.



"You could see when they went over to the dark side their personalities change, and I always felt it was an awful shame - these were young lads in the prime of their life having to make this awful decision, kind of living the dream, yet the dream is a nightmare.

"That was always why I had spoken out - it wasn't about Lance, it was about drugs and cycling."

It seems that a lot of people are upset with LA. This is the woman who blew whistle on him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTrkBRwT5Uc

The thing I don't understand (and I haven't seen that Ophra show) is if he admitted he doped, why is everyone upset now, what else can he admit?
Did he deny anything again?
Surely, that was just family time talk show and people did not expect a proper court hearing...
Am I missing something?

he denied loads of things, can't talk now revising!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43EE9I8ZMFc&feature=youtu.be

Yet by watching the beginning of this clip, I tend to dislike him less than before. Isn't Oprah cheating us too with her excessive make up and surgery lifting?

Good point !

shes useless

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/21189201

Sir Bradley Wiggins 'emotional' at Lance Armstrong confession

Britain's Sir Bradley Wiggins said he was "sad and angry" after disgraced cyclist Lance Armstrong admitted to using performance-enhancing drugs.

The 2012 Tour de France winner watched Armstrong, 41, confess in a television interview with Oprah Winfrey.

"It was quite sad really, sad for the sport but then the anger kicks in," said Wiggins, who will ride the Giro d'Italia and Tour de France in 2013.

"This was someone I admired for so long and looked up to," he added.

FRankly that makes me sick! How on earth a professional cyclist could ever believe Armstrong was clean? I don't believe one second Wiggins is any cleaner and we all know that we cannot win the tour without doping.

Wiggo....just shut up. Stop pretending, who are you kidding, you are turning into another LA yourself!

I agree and disagree.
He said he became a fan of armstrong when he won the rainbow jersey won armstrong was 21 or 22.
I don't think he ever said about being clean. Can he not believe in him as a youngster?
As durian rider said (crazy aussie guy) "sponsors, team leaders and cyclists know whats going on, spectators don't." I think when he raced him he would have known but before then maybe not.

But I agree, I am becoming increasingly worried and suspicious of wiggins and team sky, it stinks of USPT.
I wish they were more outspoken, but why aren't they? we probs know why

Well they all say the same things ...no different to what LA was saying then.

They can even say they want more testing even...cause they know that they can pass the tests nowadays without being caught.

It's all a game. I am wondering why Djoko and Murray would want more testing? curious really? Are they suspicious of Stepanek recovery time?

Thing is Ten do they say anything that convinces you otherwise the sport is clean? I recall Nadal saying to the opposite to what Djoko, Murray and Federer were saying and being grilled for it and even taken as an admission of guilt.

Thing is I look at all players now and think maybe that their not in the LA league of persistent doping, but I wonder how many have doped in bid to recover or to outlast an opponent? Watching Federer v Tsonga and the tempo Federer increased in the 5th. I mean seriously what 31 year old moves that quickly and powerfully so late in a match?

It extends beyond reasoning sometimes. A friend of mine is doing a sponsored swim across the English Channel. Now more people have died attempting it than actually completing it. The training she has put in is ridiculous. She is in the army and the method of training is scary as anything I have seen. If she completes the swim, I could argue a strong case for doping because why on earth someone would take on such a task with the risks involved would need absolute certainty they could finish it and not put themselves at such risk. Now I remember watching David Walliams do it and the training he put in.

I think one of most fundemental mistakes with understanding and suspecting doping is to look at our own bodies and just ask how much it can take and how much it can deliver. E.g with all the training a Federer or Djokovic does. If I done all that I couldn't still run as long as them. Again because of the simplistic nature of that view and what we know of ourselves and own body it makes it impossible to believe a Djokovic or Murray could possibly compete at the levels they do without the assistance of PED's.

I remember reading about Djokovic and he having the same problem I did many years ago. A deformed septum. Now I can tell you from experience that it made sport competing so much more difficult. Constantly blocked up and no matter how many vick rub or inhaler's I used, I couldn't play to my full capacity. When I had the operation to correct it just like Djokovic did, my performance levels increased. Breathing became easier and I was back to my levels before I developed the condition. There is nothing that would sway me that Djokovic having the same operation would not yield more improved performances.

I think it is too easy to just downplay success to doping. When we look at the LA case, lets look at everything. Did the guy really live a normal life with all the added complications to peristently dope? LA had quite the ruthless and determind will to succeed. One thing that stuck out more than anything in the LA report was just how long the days were. Cycle, warm down, blood tests, urine tests, data analysis. Did he enjoy Cycling with such a schedule? I doubt it. Clearly motivated by a legacy built on lies. With exposure now, to him was it worth it? All those years of doping. The day to day number crunching to ensure he stayed un-detected. What sort of followers would that attract? Yes there is a win at all cost mentality, but it is all for nothing if you get caught.

I look at a Djokovic or a Murray and think to myself with all the travelling and practising they have endured, is it really worth the risk? I don't believe any athlete who has doped stays in the clear forever. Look at Carl Lewis and the race in 1988. Look at Spanish sport and the upcoming Fuentes case. All blown apart. When past athletes makes claims others doped it springs up a saying of mine which I think sums up situations like that which is "You can't bullshit a bullshiter" which to me means when people make accusations of others doping, means they themselves done it too.

Apologies for the length of this post.

[quote="legendkillar"]Thing is Ten do they say anything that convinces you otherwise the sport is clean? I recall Nadal saying to the opposite to what Djoko, Murray and Federer were saying and being grilled for it and even taken as an admission of guilt.
---------------------------------
Sure...if you dope, you dope...whatever is said can be taken again them. Fed says he wants harder controls too...but I won't draw the same conclusion cause I know he uses his talent more than anyone to win.

Thing is I look at all players now and think maybe that their not in the LA league of persistent doping, but I wonder how many have doped in bid to recover or to outlast an opponent? Watching Federer v Tsonga and the tempo Federer increased in the 5th. I mean seriously what 31 year old moves that quickly and powerfully so late in a match?

I think it has never been more obvious. How could you explain Murray being built like an estate car moving faster than a ferrari and able to go for longer? As I said many times 31 is pretty good stamina wise....remember when you believed Fed played his best in 2007? Well in 2007 he got beat by a much poorer Murray then. Same with stamina...Nothing special winning a 3h20mn, 5th set at the beginning of the season....but clearly he could not win 2. That says a lot about Federer's possible use of recovery powers.....compared with Djoko for instance. And very clearly the 2 sets he got today were the combination of brilliant play (not physique) and Murray's mental.

It extends beyond reasoning sometimes. A friend of mine is doing a sponsored swim across the English Channel. Now more people have died attempting it than actually completing it. The training she has put in is ridiculous. She is in the army and the method of training is scary as anything I have seen. If she completes the swim, I could argue a strong case for doping because why on earth someone would take on such a task with the risks involved would need absolute certainty they could finish it and not put themselves at such risk. Now I remember watching David Walliams do it and the training he put in.

Can't quite talk about it....swimming is on thing....swimming against time is another.

E.g with all the training a Federer or Djokovic does. If I done all that I couldn't still run as long as them. Again because of the simplistic nature of that view and what we know of ourselves and own body it makes it impossible to believe a Djokovic or Murray could possibly compete at the levels they do without the assistance of PED's.

Well I think actually comparing ourselves with them is actually a very good way of making up our minds. Djoko and Fed are very different when it comes to stamina. One has the best 5 setter record, the other is lost in the 100 (despite making his opponents run more than he does). And I can/could compare myself with Federer body shape wise....I certainly cannot do this with Murray nor can I imagine myslef running like Djoko.

I think it is too easy to just downplay success to doping. When we look at the LA case, lets look at everything. Did the guy really live a normal life with all the added complications to peristently dope? LA had quite the ruthless and determind will to succeed. One thing that stuck out more than anything in the LA report was just how long the days were.

But those not doping would also be determined. Doping is what makes the difference....and that's all that matters here.

I look at a Djokovic or a Murray and think to myself with all the travelling and practising they have endured, is it really worth the risk? I don't believe any athlete who has doped stays in the clear forever. Look at Carl Lewis and the race in 1988. Look at Spanish sport and the upcoming Fuentes case. All blown apart. When past athletes makes claims others doped it springs up a saying of mine which I think sums up situations like that which is "You can't bullshit a bullshiter" which to me means when people make accusations of others doping, means they themselves done it too.

SO at the end you agree that Wiggins is also a doper.

Well I would. Many athletes say they are opposed, yet know it goes on. At some stage they must've been exposed to it to know it exists and where and how.

But those not doping would also be determined. Doping is what makes the difference....and that's all that matters here.

They wouldn't however be eating up their time with doping. It takes a long time from what I gathered with the LA report injecting took it's time. The doctor measuring the levels in the blood. All time consuming compared with a clean athlete.

In terms of doping, for it to even be considered worthwhile, the athletes must surely generate positive results because why try to dope and cheat the system, then spend more time trying to avoid detection? To me it is too much of pain in the arse to have so many concerns on top of a professional career.

legendkillar wrote:In terms of doping, for it to even be considered worthwhile, the athletes must surely generate positive results because why try to dope and cheat the system, then spend more time trying to avoid detection? To me it is too much of pain in the arse to have so many concerns on top of a professional career.

Well but that is their main concern cause they know that without doping they would simply remain amateurs and have no chance to become professionals...especially in cycling. It's not a choice .

Agassi on LA & doping in tennis (I'm expecting Homer Simpson's to hold a press conference and give his opinion, any day now)

"Much of Agassi’s popularity was built around his off-court persona – dating celebrities, the rockstar mullet hair-do, the private jet. And with that, it wasn’t always the squeakiest of clean reputations. He admitted in his biography, Open, to getting away with taking recreational drugs early on in his career.

In light of American cyclist Lance Armstrong’s recent public admission of cheating with performance-enhancing drugs, he welcomed more stringent testing across all sports, but was firm in his belief tennis was now at the forefront of prevention.

“It's sad to watch people who may question things for those that worked pretty darn hard, you know. But, yeah, I think that tennis has always sort of led the way. I really believe that,” he said.

“For me, it would have kept me from destroying a few years of my life. That's what I did to myself with the use of the recreational, destructive substance of crystal meth. It would have saved me on a lot of fronts.

“The more the better as far as I'm concerned. The stricter, the better; the more transparency the better; the more accountability the better.”

Describing the problem, he admits, is a heck of a lot easier than solving it.

And to see players able to raise their level, having previously put their body through a gruelling five to six-hour marathon, Agassi had no doubt it was achievable without the use of performance-enhancing drugs.

“I marvel at it, first of all ... I think they've gotten very aware at an early age how important it is to be prepared, and I think there's a lot you can gain from training right and training smartly,” he said.

“I don't watch it and wonder in light of the Lance situation, but I also have the luxury of knowing that there's no time to – the negotiation of what one would have to go through to figure a way around or to figure a shortcut seems implausible.”

He really takes us for idiots. After having doped himself (and not only recreational drugs but nandrolone too), having destroyed the ATP reputation he says the opposite of what all former tennis pros do.

He is as shallow as his Brookshield.

yes, that's one of phenomena of life, people living a lie and convincing themselves it's not a lie.
Usually surrounded by people who tell them they are right, too.

It's good of him that he wrote what he wrote in that book of his, but he should've done the whole truth, not this superficial money-spinning handwash of conscience.

And why would top players ask for more control? They would not if they were controlled twice a week, woudl they?

Tenez wrote:And why would top players ask for more control? They would not if they were controlled twice a week, woudl they?

I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, call their bluff and see what happens
It would be good to appoint an anti-doping fanatic to organise testing, ideally a former pro player with clean reputation...

OK, Armstrong did lose all his titles....but not prepared to return a cent of the $12m prize money that came with them ....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/02/04/lance-armstrong-wont-pay-back-bonus-money/1890933/

I personally am not sure why he should part with this money really. If no-one is clean enough to claim it, then it's his. He was the most professional doper but the others were still doping.
And I woudl not mind his goving the money back the day Nike and the bike companies pay every single customer back the products that carried the LA name.
It's too easy for Nike to make all the money without having themselves to dope....and if anything they are the ones covering them.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21363100

Not good.

legendkillar wrote:http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21363100

Not good.

If anyone cracks down on dopers it will be the Ozzies. This will be a huge slap in the face for them as they are notorious for their ridiculous airport controls.
You cannot get any food into the country,so no wonder their cops caught Odesnik when they did.

They are incredibly vain and proud of their sport and sport heros and as such are the sorest losers under the sun. Will be fun to watch how they handle this now, esp as the "Pommies" have reported about it

Remember when I was saying that at least 90% of athletes were doping already back then 6 or 7 years ago?
It's all coming out now. I was arguing against a bunch of fans on bbc 606 and could not win the argument but doping is simply part of a professional athlete...except maybe extremely rare exceptions. So in that sense they are not cheating against maybe those exceptions.

NO they won't! The aussies are such a joke when it comes to catching dopers!

this was published b4 i doubt it was covered first by us "poms" http://www.aljazeera.com/sport/2013/02/2013272436791929.html?utm_content=automate&utm_campaign=Trial6&utm_source=NewSocialFlow&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount

luvsports! wrote:NO they won't!...

DO you mean "no the won't catch them?".
Sure no country wants his heroes to be exposed.
We shoudl really reflect on agencies like WADA. Why are they paid for? They are not independant and paid by the sport organisations...this is why they only catch small fishes to prove their work but will never compromise the bigger stars and their sport.They are part of the doping system...one day we will find out.
Dick Pound left for a very good reason....(I know I keep repeating myself ).

nitb said:

If anyone cracks down on dopers it will be the Ozzies

and i completely disagree! They are one of the best for beating the system and getting away with it!

yes...as good as anyone but looks like they did this time.

yes that is surprising, as they are right up there with the most sophisticated and intelligent dopers around.
Its not like they are those inevitable eastern european poor countries (georgia, belarus etc) that are going to get caught in some weightlifting/power event, these guys are the best.

As good/crazy durianrider says "juiced to the gills" and "on the hot sauce".
Saw his latest blog today, haha he is insane!

Yes I have always been sceptical of those western media (incl Australia) loving to point fingers to Eastern Europe and China while turning a blind eye at home.

I guess nothing new under the sun.