Armstrong might lose all his titles!

What else is in store?

http://sports.ndtv.com/othersports/cycling/item/195490-lance-armstrongs-suit-against-usada-dismissed-could-lose-all-his-titles?pfrom=home-otherstories

It seems that Armstrong is on the verge of losing all his titles. Can this have any implication on the tennis world?

wow3 wrote:What else is in store?

http://sports.ndtv.com/othersports/cycling/item/195490-lance-armstrongs-suit-against-usada-dismissed-could-lose-all-his-titles?pfrom=home-otherstories

It seems that Armstrong is on the verge of losing all his titles. Can this have any implication on the tennis world?

Definitely yes, Lance will start to play tennis

Very funny.

The sports where only the best stamina wins always will be darkened by temptation to increase a performance by banned substances. Cycling especially became the sport which chemistry industry must love. Btw watching cyclists for 5 hours is not just thrilling.

Therefore the ITF should stop slowing down the court surfaces and a bit speed it up, which will favour ones who play more attacking tennis.Otherwise tennis is going not to be the cleanest sport anymore.

This is hilarious...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/sports/baseball/baseball-bartolo-colon-suspended-failed-drug-test.html

paulcz wrote:Btw watching cyclists for 5 hours is not just thrilling.

Watching Tennis for 5:53 must be thrilling though. It was a classic where they needed chairs after the match. (and Pascal Maria did not need a chair. He should be tested for PEDs/HGH every day. )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhCzXwdUs_U

Perhaps ITF/ATP should also ban matches over five (5) hours.

PS: Can someone tell me how long was Federer-Nadal Rome 2006?

Let's not forget Armstrong is innocent....until....

Tenez wrote:Let's not forget Armstrong is innocent....until....

Has he been convicted yet? There is an ongoing case in which he is the defendant. Trial by Media and Internet Forum Rumours, indeed..

It is believed the charges stem from a federal investigation by Food and Drug Administration special agent Jeff Novitzky. His investigation didn't result in any charges, but Novitzky -- who led the fight against the Balco Laboratory and doping in Major League Baseball -- is understood to have helped with the USADA case.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/22/sport/lance-armstrong-usada-cycling/index.html

I am quoting CNN, not some French Internet Forum. Do you trust CNN? Do you want to consult your trusted media sources?

Who is talking about trusted media now? LF you really cannot focus, can you? you have a 0s attention span.....wandering from fora to fora...till end of times!

Tenez wrote:Who is talking about trusted media now? LF you really cannot focus, can you? you have a 0s attention span.....wandering from fora to fora...till end of times!

You puerile attacks get you nowhere Tenez. You want to drag another thread on to this thread and now dislike the response.

Let us not talk about wandering from fora to fora, lest we discuss your discombobulated travels and travails.

PS: I have yet to set up a forum of my own.

Tenez wrote:Who is talking about trusted media now? LF you really cannot focus, can you? you have a 0s attention span.....wandering from fora to fora...till end of times!

This "I don't trust the Internet and media" is a farce and hypocritical comment. What else is your source of information and how do I trust it. For something they will trust it, in fact post it as an authentic source of information. Haven't we see how many times posters provide links to support their argument. Have we not seen posters write articles on tennis stats and all the information they have gathered is from ATP website. Isn't ATP website a "meadia in the unreliable internet world"? Why do you have to trust the stats it shows. I haven't seen René Lacoste play or Archie Hahn run. How do I believe they did what is said that they did? Or how do I know they even existed? People who keep talking about "I don't believe on internet or media" are just trying to dismiss things when they have nothing left to reply. They will chose to use this internet and media as an evidence and a source of information when it suits their agenda. When it doesn't they will quickly dismiss it.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:This "I don't trust the Internet and media" is a farce and hypocritical comment.

There is a clear distinction between Internet forums and News media? Correct?

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:What else is your source of information and how do I trust it. For something they will trust it, in fact post it as an authentic source of information.

There is a difference between cnn.com and https://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Haven't we see how many times posters provide links to support their argument. Have we not seen posters write articles on tennis stats and all the information they have gathered is from ATP website. Isn't ATP website a "meadia in the unreliable internet world"?

Information that can be correlated and verified independently, which lends it credibility. ATP information is available outside the Internet. Correct?

Reuters, CNN, BBC, L'Equipe reporting on Armstrong are independent (or perhaps it is a conspiracy against Armstrong). You have a choice.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Why do you have to trust the stats it shows.

They can be verified independently by visual observation of many independent observers.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:I haven't seen René Lacoste play or Archie Hahn run. How do I believe they did what is said that they did? Or how do I know they even existed? People who keep talking about "I don't believe on internet or media" are just trying to dismiss things when they have nothing left to reply.

I feel bad for you having missed on Rene or Archie. C'est La Vie.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:They will chose to use this internet and media as an evidence and a source of information when it suits their agenda. When it doesn't they will quickly dismiss it.

A chat forum vs a news website should be treated accordingly, correct?

Indeed Rotla. LF doesn't even realises that her CNN link is an internet source too.

Tenez wrote:Indeed Rotla. LF doesn't even realises that her CNN link is an internet source too.

Unfortunately, the newspaper I am currently reading does not let me send you a cutting on the internet, so an equivalent electronic link is what is used. A message via Owl Mail is on it's way to you and ROTLA. A signed acknowledgement of receipt of the paper cutting would be much appreciated.

Perhaps I have a printing press in my house which generates fake newspapers for your reading pleasure, you never can tell, can you?

I agree with LF on the reliability of the source. I too have doubted cast on the use of PEDs but thasp does sound like a propaganda site and if comparing various interent sources CNN shold be more reliable.

With armstrong case, it again brings the question as who all are guilty? Armstrong never got caught but his performances always raised suspicion and now he might be losing all the titles. Quite difficult to judge as who all are using the substances.

LF, now I'm really thinking should I answer your points or not? I sure can, I assure you. But it takes effort to reply. You'll take the whole world tour in spirals and never clear your points. I have known you long enough to know that now if I do reply, you'll abandon this thread and move ahead. Just like you used to do on v2 and Just like you did on this thread https://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/t53p300-atp-masters-1000-cincinnati-the-final where I put so many questions in your reply and you left it maybe because you had no answers.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:LF, now I'm really thinking should I answer your points or not? I sure can, I assure you. But it takes effort to reply.

Your choice.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:You'll take the whole world tour in spirals and never clear your points. I have known you long enough to know that now if I do reply, you'll abandon this thread and move ahead.

I dislike repeating my arguments, unlike Tenez.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Just like you used to do on v2 and Just like you did on this thread https://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/t53p300-atp-masters-1000-cincinnati-the-final where I put so many questions in your reply and you left it maybe because you had no answers.

I will answer those. I saw your responses today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19365234

Armstrong loses all his 7 titles.

This means EPO has been undetectable in all kinds of testing and it's only Landis's testimony which has proven Armstrong guilty!

Tenez wrote:It means sites like THASP have been more informative and up to date about the under-world of sport than mainstream media ever be.

Definitley, only thing I worry about THASP is that at times it reads like if they are just going on and on about one certain player. There could be more people involved. But let's see what happens next. Can we hear what we want to hear or tennis will remain a clean sport like it always has been

I don't think they are.....though I agree that like in cycling you have to go after the biggest fish first...even if the rest of the peloton dope too.

Nadal is the most obvious one and deservedly requires more attention. Would love to see slams being cancelled in the eventuality of proof of doping.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/more-sports/cycling/If-Armstrong-loses-Tour-titles-who-gets-them/articleshow/15633180.cms

This cannot get funnier than this. Even if Armstrong loses all his ttiles even then there is not a single clean contender to claim those titles. One thing can be said with certainity that cycling is the most doped sport alongwith weightlifting and athletics.

Glad to see Armstrong stripped, albeit, without a legal case. He jus threw in the towel.

Tenez wrote:Would love to see slams being cancelled in the eventuality of proof of doping.

If the 'doping' cannot be proven during why should future slams be cancelled. Just ban the players caught.

laverfan wrote:Glad to see Armstrong stripped, albeit, without a legal case. He jus threw in the towel.

Tenez wrote:Would love to see slams being cancelled in the eventuality of proof of doping.

If the 'doping' cannot be proven during why should future slams be cancelled. Just ban the players caught.

I think the main reason for him for throwing the towel is that there are 10 players who are willing to testify against him. It is very shameful for the sport that there is not even a single worthy winner or there could be another solution as they should let Armstrong to keep his titles as rest of the field was doping too anyway. So in effect he was still the fastest as others were doping too.

This is Coria's case, very dissimilar from Armstrong's, but interesting.

Coria tested positive for nandrolone in April 2001, after a match in Barcelona against Michel Kratochvil. This news of Coria testing positive was publicly revealed on the 10 July 2001. Coria was initially banned from tennis for two years, starting in August 2001, and was also fined $98,565. Coria claimed that the only supplement he was taking was a multivitamin made by a New Jersey supplements company. His family had a private lab test the multivitamin, which found them contaminated with steroids. In December 2001, the ATP refused to acquit Coria and reduced his ban from two years to seven months, meaning that he would be free to continue with his tennis career in March 2002. Coria sued the New Jersey supplements company for more than $10 million in lost prize money and endorsements and settled after the third day of the trial for an undisclosed amount..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillermo_Coria

(From untrusted and unreliable Wikipedia, which anyone, with computer and Internet access, can update. )

The other notable aspect is the delay in notification, from April, 2001 to July 2001, roughly four months (more food for the 'silent' ban theorists).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19369375

He has now lost them all. It took him so long to win but just one day to lose them all. What irony!

wow3 wrote:LF you are the best thing to happen to this forum. Another reason that I dont miss V2 because I can read and interact with you here.

WoW...

I am not so sure ROTLA/Tenez like it that much. Unless I get banned, I plan to hang out here too.

I wish UCI/WADA moved at the same pace as Chemists assisting such athletes.

I now read about 'bio-similar' stuff. Autologus transfusions (perfected by Fuentes , and many others, for athletes) is a grey area (from your BBC link), that needs to be addressed.

I do dislike the fundamental idea of a paranoid world though.

wow3 wrote:What else is in store?

http://sports.ndtv.com/othersports/cycling/item/195490-lance-armstrongs-suit-against-usada-dismissed-could-lose-all-his-titles?pfrom=home-otherstories

It seems that Armstrong is on the verge of losing all his titles. Can this have any implication on the tennis world?

The latest is that he is "giving up" his titles!!

By saying that he "gives up", and hands back his Tour de France titles, he is not admitting that he is a doper but that he has been driven to concede through the persecution of the USADA,he has been at the receiving end of a "witch hunt" In doing so, he becomes a martyr - and avoids being found a cheat.
The USADA should really proceed with the case and present all evidence to prove Lance Armstrong's guilt

This is the classic 'Nolo Contendere' plea.

laverfan wrote:

wow3 wrote:LF you are the best thing to happen to this forum. Another reason that I dont miss V2 because I can read and interact with you here.

I do dislike the fundamental idea of a paranoid world though.

And myopic

It seems dopers are always one step ahead of the testers

Veejay, did you read my comment on ja606 about Nole?

laverfan wrote:
I am not so sure ROTLA/Tenez like it that much. Unless I get banned, I plan to hang out here too.

No, I like you here. Though I do not like some of your comments because I think at times you post in your strange mysterious ways giving useless irrelevant 'facts' and being hypocritical which is disguised as being 'balanced'. But you are not offensive. Its fine to have to here. Difference of opinion is all fine.

This forum doesn't believe in banning people for having an opinion of any sort on any player. Freedom of speech is important and we don't intend to run a discussion forum with an iron fist like it happens on 606v2. I believe we don't plan to ban anyone.

wow3 wrote:

laverfan wrote:

wow3 wrote:LF you are the best thing to happen to this forum. Another reason that I dont miss V2 because I can read and interact with you here.

I do dislike the fundamental idea of a paranoid world though.

And myopic

It seems dopers are always one step ahead of the testers

Veejay, did you read my comment on ja606 about Nole?

No,on which article will I find it?

wow3 wrote:http://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/144980

What username?
Are you Ava?

TMF. I used to be WOW there as well but I changed the pseudo for Wimby and now I cannot revert back

wow3 wrote:TMF. I used to be WOW there as well but I changed the pseudo for Wimby and now I cannot revert back

I would have never guessed,you sound like completely different people
I am in agreement that endurance can be improved through sheer hard work,I know this from personal experience,even a change of diet can make the world of difference,but no pro athlete in any sport out there today performs on pure adrenaline alone.They all use something,whether its banned or legal to get the most out of their bodies

Veejay wrote:They all use something,whether its banned or legal to get the most out of their bodies

At Juici Patties, a Jamaican fast food chain on the campus of the University of the West Indies, university researcher Rachael Irving is ordering a breakfast of ackee and salt fish with yams, bananas and a cup of mint tea.

"This is what the Jamaicans usually eat before they start running," Irving says.

It's what just about everyone here eats. In Kingston, you hear a lot about yams and green bananas. They're the nutritional argument for Jamaican success in sprint events.

"It's [a] carbohydrate, and runners need carbohydrate[s] because that is what produces the glucose that is metabolized to give you the energy that drives the muscle to perform," Irving says.

Dr. Errol Morrison, an endocrinologist and the president of UTech, says Jamaican kids grow up on a diet that is so helpful, they might as well be taking a daily dose of steroids. And he goes a step further: What good nutrition unlocks in Jamaican athletes, he says, is a gift that is genetically endowed.

http://www.npr.org/2012/05/04/151956595/a-need-for-speed-inside-jamaicas-sprint-factory (Hope the link from an unreliable and untrusted Internet is available in the UK).

I wonder why the Jamaicans do not play Tennis (Dustin Brown is the currently well known player from Jamaica) . The 'genetic' part is controversial and border-line racist, and there are many similar article.

Here is a link as an example (caveat emptor, mouse-clicker emptor) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167996/Why-progeny-slaves-strike-gold-Olympics.html

Nadal must be having 'green' bananas during his break.

wow3 wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/more-sports/cycling/If-Armstrong-loses-Tour-titles-who-gets-them/articleshow/15633180.cms

This cannot get funnier than this. Even if Armstrong loses all his ttiles even then there is not a single clean contender to claim those titles. One thing can be said with certainity that cycling is the most doped sport alongwith weightlifting and athletics.

Tennis is up there too.

wow3 wrote:

laverfan wrote:Glad to see Armstrong stripped, albeit, without a legal case. He jus threw in the towel.

Tenez wrote:Would love to see slams being cancelled in the eventuality of proof of doping.

If the 'doping' cannot be proven during why should future slams be cancelled. Just ban the players caught.

I think the main reason for him for throwing the towel is that there are 10 players who are willing to testify against him. It is very shameful for the sport that there is not even a single worthy winner or there could be another solution as they should let Armstrong to keep his titles as rest of the field was doping too anyway. So in effect he was still the fastest as others were doping too.

I think the main reason he is throwing the towel is that if the trial goes on, He and the UCI will go down....turning the sport in a bigger mess. By sacrifying himself and cutting the rope, the UCI will hang on to the cliff.

Veejay wrote:

wow3 wrote:What else is in store?

http://sports.ndtv.com/othersports/cycling/item/195490-lance-armstrongs-suit-against-usada-dismissed-could-lose-all-his-titles?pfrom=home-otherstories

It seems that Armstrong is on the verge of losing all his titles. Can this have any implication on the tennis world?

The latest is that he is "giving up" his titles!!

By saying that he "gives up", and hands back his Tour de France titles, he is not admitting that he is a doper but that he has been driven to concede through the persecution of the USADA,he has been at the receiving end of a "witch hunt" In doing so, he becomes a martyr - and avoids being found a cheat.
The USADA should really proceed with the case and present all evidence to prove Lance Armstrong's guilt

Nah, I think USADA has done enough. Find me someone who doesn’t believe Armstrong is guilty given the following
evidence.

http://www.myfoxla.com/story/19368358/usada-to-strip-lance-armstrong-of-7-tour-de-france-titles

“The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency stripped Lance Armstrong's seven Tour de France
titles Friday, erasing one of the most incredible achievements in sports after
deciding he had used performance-enhancing drugs to do it.

USADA reacted quickly and treated
Armstrong's decision as an admission of guilt, hanging the label of drug cheat
on an athlete who was a hero to thousands for overcoming life-threatening
testicular cancer and for his foundation's support for cancer research.

USADA maintains that Armstrong has used banned substances as
far back as 1996, including the blood-booster EPO and steroids as well as blood
transfusions — all to boost his performance.

The federal probe was closed in February, but USADA announced in June it had
evidence Armstrong used banned substances and methods — and encouraged their
use by teammates. The agency also said it had blood tests from 2009 and 2010
that were "fully consistent" with blood doping.

Included in USADA's evidence were emails written by
Armstrong's former U.S. Postal Service teammate Floyd Landis, who was stripped
of his 2006 Tour de France title after a positive drug test. Landis' emails to
a USA Cycling official detailed allegations of a complex doping program on
the team.

USADA also said it had 10 former Armstrong teammates ready
to testify against him. Other than suggesting they include Landis and Tyler
Hamilton, both of whom have admitted to doping offenses, the agency has refused
to say who they are or specifically what they would say.”

My immediate question is: Who’s next, in tennis I mean? Getting very suspenseful here.

Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal too?

News update and further consierations: “there is a question of whether the organization has the authority to take such
action." http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/23/sport/lance-armstrong-investigation/index.html

Two separate issues come to mind,

1) Fairness to Armstrong, USADA may or may not have the authority to strip his titles earned outside the USA. The accused has NOT been found guilty by the Court;

2) Fairness to readers, everyone is free to form his/her own personal opinions on whether Armstrong is guilty
or innocent based on recent news reports, independently.

SR wrote:My immediate question is: Who’s next, in tennis I mean? Getting very suspenseful here.

Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal too?

It is interesting to think this way. So let us assume, for the sake of argument, that Nadal is a doper/cheater/everything else he is accused of.

The argument I would make is this..

1. If ATP/ITF/WADA failed in their ability to catch Nadal, who else did they fail to catch?

2. Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal Federer too?

3. Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal Djokovic too?

4. Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal Murray too?

... ad infinitum....

What is the 'poison' you want to swallow, SR?

Also, notice WoW3's link where he says, if Armstrong is stripped, who should be next in line to receive the Yellow Jersey? Should Federer get them? Is he innocent? Djokovic? Murray? Ferrer? Soderling? Is anyone innocent? Should I start a website called THASP v2 and accuse Federer, Nalbandian, Gasquet, Malisse, Hewitt, Safin, et al.

laverfan wrote:

SR wrote:My immediate question is: Who’s next, in tennis I mean? Getting very suspenseful here.

Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal too?

It is interesting to think this way. So let us assume, for the sake of argument, that Nadal is a doper/cheater/everything else he is accused of.

The argument I would make is this..

1. If ATP/ITF/WADA failed in their ability to catch Nadal, who else did they fail to catch?

2. Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal Federer too?

3. Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal Djokovic too?

4. Could Armstrong’s misfortunes happen to Nadal Murray too?

... ad infinitum....

What is the 'poison' you want to swallow, SR?

Also, notice WoW3's link where he says, if Armstrong is stripped, who should be next in line to receive the Yellow Jersey? Should Federer get them? Is he innocent? Djokovic? Murray? Ferrer? Soderling? Is anyone innocent? Should I start a website called THASP v2 and accuse Federer, Nalbandian, Gasquet, Malisse, Hewitt, Safin, et al.

Why such excitement? Poison and all? This
is not the first time you’re defending Nadal. No, I disagree. I’m rather having
fun (re)discovering that the responsible authority had succeeded in catching Nadal.
Why do you think a 26 year old champ in his prime so healthy and “unplayable”
in Paris but then was/is shortly and suddenly out
of action from the Olympics to NY? Failed drug tests might not have been
disclosed, but I believe they’ve enforced a silent ban.

Just think, Nadal was already caught and found
guilty of breaking the rule of the game and officially fined £2,000 in W’10 for
receiving on-court coaching. With all his notorious history of gamesmanship, it
is no surprise at all that he is now caught like a big fat rat. In this case, your
points 2-4 are moot. But for argument sake I’ll comment on them.

2. No, Federer has no history of
doping allegations to my knowledge.

3. Perhaps, people are increasingly
questioning the disparity of Djoko’s form between last year and this year due
to banned substances he might have used last year.

4. Unlikely but you never know, you may laugh but I’m
hearing rumours starting ever so slightly associating Murray
with PEDs too.

Back to my original question, who’s
next? The answer is very simple. The one burdened with the proven history of
cheating his way to win; the one who constantly invites negative speculation
because of the negativity of his own conduct on and off court, the one who’s ALREADY
been found guilty of breaking the rule in broad daylight

Good try, LF, but none of the players you named would likely end up like Armstrong because none of
them owns a personal history of cheating, to date. Only one player I can think
of fits the bill. And the name of that player is Raphael Nadal. Everyone knows
that, so no need to beat around the bush. But you get A+ from me for excellent efforts.

SR wrote:This is not the first time you’re defending Nadal.

I am not defending Nadal, I am defending the sport. If Nadal has been getting away with such doping since 2005, why not Federer, since 2000? Why is Federer, or anyone else a saint?

SR wrote:I’m rather having fun (re)discovering that the responsible authority had succeeded in catching Nadal.
Why do you think a 26 year old champ in his prime so healthy and “unplayable” in Paris but then was/is shortly and suddenly out
of action from the Olympics to NY? Failed drug tests might not have been disclosed, but I believe they’ve enforced a silent ban.

SR wrote:Just think, Nadal was already caught and found guilty of breaking the rule of the game and officially fined £2,000 in W’10 for
receiving on-court coaching. With all his notorious history of gamesmanship, it is no surprise at all that he is now caught like a big fat rat. In this case, your
points 2-4 are moot. But for argument sake I’ll comment on them.

So was Federer fined at USO 2009. I will let you find it for yourself.

SR wrote:2. No, Federer has no history of doping allegations to my knowledge.

Neither do I, but I do not consider paranoia enough to be suspicious.

SR wrote:3. Perhaps, people are increasingly questioning the disparity of Djoko’s form between last year and this year due to banned substances he might have used last year.

This is the problem. You are now smearing the entire Sport, just like my argument. 2 of Top 4 doping? Sounds like Cycling or Baseball.

SR wrote:4. Unlikely but you never know, you may laugh but I’m hearing rumours starting ever so slightly associating Murray with PEDs too.

See my argument is already in play here.

SR wrote:Back to my original question, who’s next? The answer is very simple. The one burdened with the proven history of cheating his way to win; the one who constantly invites negative speculation because of the negativity of his own conduct on and off court, the one who’s ALREADY been found guilty of breaking the rule in broad daylight

Del Potro, Djokovic also exceed time limits.

SR wrote:Good try, LF, but none of the players you named would likely end up like Armstrong because none of them owns a personal history of cheating, to date. Only one player I can think of fits the bill. And the name of that player is Raphael Nadal. Everyone knows that, so no need to beat around the bush. But you get A+ from me for excellent efforts.

Is such 'history' in public domain? Are you privy to some internal WADA documents? BTW, thanks for the A+.

LF, you haven't replied to my post on the 'innocent or guilty' thread.

laverfan wrote:Should I start a website called THASP v2 and accuse Federer, Nalbandian, Gasquet, Malisse, Hewitt, Safin, et al.

LF, why you keep threatening everyone saying you can accuse Federer and others too. . For the gazillionth time I'm saying it. DO IT, l dare you. DO IT. Lets see what you have got to say.

Is this an attack on you? NO. In fact you are trying to intimidate everyone.

Nalby is on belly-enhancing drugs

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:DO IT, l dare you.

Ooooooh, he dared you Go on lavefan, or are you a scaredy

SR wrote:

Find me someone who doesn’t believe Armstrong is guilty given the following
evidence.

Oh SR, you wanted someone? Read this and the comments posted : http://news.yahoo.com/lance-armstrongs-foundation-sees-30-percent-rise-donations-213252956--spt.html


Read the comments posted here: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/cycling/story/2012/08/24/sp-usada-cycling-lance-armstrong.html?cmp=rss