The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

luvsports! wrote:also why is dimi's fitness so poor?
You may argue that he cramped because he has played the two most physical players. But to cramp twice in a b03 setter, not even a b05! And he cramped massively in the 2nd set vs gasquet at the FO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9foAe38cz8

LS,

Dimi had no cramping last night whatsoever. He may have felt a bit of muscle tightening in an awkward movement which is what actually happened to him in that point where Novak wrong-footed him and then he stopped in the middle of the point. Do you really think he could've lasted that third set against Novak, covered more ground than him if he had been cramping?
Dimi is not unfit, he is just a second rate athlete compared to Djokovic, Federer and even Nadal.

His legs are not that well conditioned, but he can improve it within a year if he followed a good fitness regime.

His fitness is work in progress at the moment. Not as bad as people think but not as good as it could be, either.

luvsports! wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr7c0PX5MOY
this is feds at 20 going on 21 and he looks pretty stocky no?
He looks bigger across the chest here and torso than dimi does now at 21 going on 22.

What a great clip...more many reasons. I enjoyed the 20mns there! Fed shoudl have easily won that FO04 but he had a terrible day v Guga.

Yes here Federer looks bulkier than Guga and very similar to Dimi silhouette wise. But 2 things:

- His arms are still considerably thinner than Dimi

- They have similar silhouette but Dimi is one inch taller which makes him certainly more physical. Usually taller people look thinner. Look at Djoko he is 1 inch taller than Fed and Nadal and look thinner. What makes Murray imo the most physical player nowadays is that he almost look like Nadal yet he is 2 inches taller, this is why guys like Tsip also say Murray is teh fittest even if he does not look as bulky as Nadal. So at similar silhouette being 1inch taller makes you more physical. And again the arms just prove that.

luvsports! wrote:also why is dimi's fitness so poor?
You may argue that he cramped because he has played the two most physical players. But to cramp twice in a b03 setter, not even a b05! And he cramped massively in the 2nd set vs gasquet at the FO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9foAe38cz8

I agree Fed has certainly more stamina. He is older and that gives him an edge in that department (remember the average TDF winner is 33?). In fact being bulkier would make you cramp earlier as you are carrying more weight.

So it is important not to mix power and stamina. 2 very different thing. heavyweight boxers look pretty nackered after a few rounds whereas the featherweight ones can still deliver swift punches in round 10.

noleisthebest wrote:
LS,

Dimi had no cramping last night whatsoever. He may have felt a bit of muscle tightening in an awkward movement which is what actually happened to him in that point where Novak wrong-footed him and then he stopped in the middle of the point. Do you really think he could've lasted that third set against Novak, covered more ground than him if he had been cramping?
Dimi is not unfit, he is just a second rate athlete compared to Djokovic, Federer and even Nadal.

His legs are not that well conditioned, but he can improve it within a year if he followed a good fitness regime.

His fitness is work in progress at the moment. Not as bad as people think but not as good as it could be, either.

NITB - Dimi was cramping. It was pretty clear and as LS said it is not the first time it happened and every time he stopped in the middle of a rally. I don;t think he is the kind of player who would pretend and it woudl be so stupid to stop in the middle of such an important point. There is zero chance he was acting.

You can cramp and still play we see it every day almost on teh tour. And you know that Djoko was cramping v Monfils in that USO and he still managed to win it in 5 sets!!! So either Djoko and Dimi are cheats or they can cramp and run like all other athletes.

tenez sorry if i didn't make it clear but i am referring to feds when he was the same age as dimi is now.
Feds at 21 would not have cramped after not even 2 sets at a slam against someone like gasquet and i doubt he would have cramped as dimi did in his other matches.

lydian posted a great article on federer improving his fitness over 3 years and how he got super fit. Dimi it seems needs to do something similar!!!

Feds for me in those clips looks much bigger than dimi across the chest and torso. He looks kind of bulky and stocky, dimi is a leaner, slimmer and taller version imo.

Tenez wrote:
NITB - Dimi was cramping. It was pretty clear and as LS said it is not the first time it happened and every time he stopped in the middle of a rally. I don;t think he is the kind of player who would pretend and it woudl be so stupid to stop in the middle of such an important point. There is zero chance he was acting.

You can cramp and still play we see it every day almost on teh tour. And you know that Djoko was cramping v Monfils in that USO and he still managed to win it in 5 sets!!! So either Djoko and Dimi are cheats or they can cramp and run like all other athletes.

I disagree completely.

luvsports! wrote:tenez sorry if i didn't make it clear but i am referring to feds when he was the same age as dimi is now.
Feds at 21 would not have cramped after not even 2 sets at a slam against someone like gasquet and i doubt he would have cramped as dimi did in his other matches.

lydian posted a great article on federer improving his fitness over 3 years and how he got super fit. Dimi it seems needs to do something similar!!!

Feds for me in those clips looks much bigger than dimi across the chest and torso. He looks kind of bulky and stocky, dimi is a leaner, slimmer and taller version imo.

Yuo are referring to Lydian to irritate me, aren't you?

Fed has/had broad shoulders and quite a big chest I agree....but there are no big muscles there. It's lungs and heart. Don't you find it strange that Dimi being taller and leaner than Fed has bigger arms than the latter?

But anyway cramping is often caused by emotion and nerves, they are a physiological problem more than a fitness problem. Excessive sweating from intance can cause cramping, while Fed for instance rarely sweats so much less likely to get cramping. Cramping should not be a criteria for fitness as a sodium pill could fix that problem for instance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cramp

To me Federer was good enough to rally versus the likes of Hewitt on faster courts.....but when Murray, Nadal and Djko raised the physical bar...on even slower courts, he simply could not stay with them physically. Dimi covered a lot of ground yesterday, moving a bigger frame than Fed (an extra inch requires lots more energy at this pace), and was able to beat Djoko over the distance!

Do you really think Federer who struggled v Hewitt and Nalby at 22 could have beaten a 2013 Djoko?

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:
NITB - Dimi was cramping. It was pretty clear and as LS said it is not the first time it happened and every time he stopped in the middle of a rally. I don;t think he is the kind of player who would pretend and it woudl be so stupid to stop in the middle of such an important point. There is zero chance he was acting.

You can cramp and still play we see it every day almost on teh tour. And you know that Djoko was cramping v Monfils in that USO and he still managed to win it in 5 sets!!! So either Djoko and Dimi are cheats or they can cramp and run like all other athletes.

I disagree completely.

I can see that but can you reply then to the last 2 sentences of my post so I can try to understand where you disagree?

haha i did say lydian "posted" not lydian wrote, didn't want to antagonize you (even though we disagree about his quality of posting, i like it, you don't)

If feds had grown up like dimi had done at this moment in time, yes i think he would have beaten djoko 2013. Back then he had an inside out forehand!!

But surely tenez the fitter you are the more likely you are to avoid cramp right?
It is becoming a recurring theme this cramping. Roddick sweated buckets but he didn't cramp much at all.
Unless dimi sails through slams in straight sets he will struggle big time in long, physical clashes.

luvsports! wrote:haha i did say lydian "posted" not lydian wrote, didn't want to antagonize you (even though we disagree about his quality of posting, i like it, you don't)

If feds had grown up like dimi had done at this moment in time, yes i think he would have beaten djoko 2013. Back then he had an inside out forehand!!

But surely tenez the fitter you are the more likely you are to avoid cramp right?
It is becoming a recurring theme this cramping. Roddick sweated buckets but he didn't cramp much at all.
Unless dimi sails through slams in straight sets he will struggle big time in long, physical clashes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/04/rafael-nadal-david-nalbandian-us-open

Isn't this guy "fit"...yet look how bad he looks after an easy 3 setter!!!

Dimi will fix cramping soon. It's not a big fitness issue.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:
NITB - Dimi was cramping. It was pretty clear and as LS said it is not the first time it happened and every time he stopped in the middle of a rally. I don;t think he is the kind of player who would pretend and it woudl be so stupid to stop in the middle of such an important point. There is zero chance he was acting.

You can cramp and still play we see it every day almost on teh tour. And you know that Djoko was cramping v Monfils in that USO and he still managed to win it in 5 sets!!! So either Djoko and Dimi are cheats or they can cramp and run like all other athletes.

I disagree completely.

I can see that but can you reply then to the last 2 sentences of my post so I can try to understand where you disagree?

Dimi was not cramping.

If he was cramping he's be doing a lot of stretching to alleviate it. He did almost none. He wasn't trying to shorten points. He didn't even drink much water or take any electrolytes.

Even if he was cramping (which he wasn't), he would not have been able to run like he did in the third set against Nole. He was not playing Dodig who served 3 double faults in Indian Wells to let Federer go through with a totally stuffed back. He was playing Novak Djokovic who was fighting with all his might.

Now, regarding the Monfils Novak match which you seem to be bringing it up all the time (and please tell me why, is that because you are trying to pull the rug from under my feet in this argument?, it's a bit funny, because you should know me better than to try that tactics).
I told you I haven't seen that match so am not able to comment there. I promise I will once I get some time to see the match, and then I will answer you properly. During one of those non-event weeks, course.

In the meantime, even if what you claim is true (this is just for pure argument's sake at this stage of this conversation) what exact point are you trying to make in relation to Dimitrov's case?

I just don;t understand how you cannot see Dimi cramping when the rest of the world did it so clearly. I am always the one suspicious about gamesmanship or any tricks players could come with but on that day I simply saw a player cramping scrapping to the finishing line.

Your main argument is that he coudl not have finished the match or run as much had he cramped. Well yes you can many do on the tour and I have too finished matches cramping.

Tenez wrote:I just don;t understand how you cannot see Dimi cramping when the rest of the world did it so clearly. I am always the one suspicious about gamesmanship or any tricks players could come with but on that day I simply saw a player cramping scrapping to the finishing line.

Your main argument is that he coudl not have finished the match or run as much had he cramped. Well yes you can many do on the tour and I have too finished matches cramping.

Great!
The rest of the world also think that Nadal is a great humble champion.

Maybe I am blind, but always prefer to trust my own pair of eyes and I explained what I saw. What evidence of cramping did you see from Dimitrov?

Just cramping. His serve went off , so served harder, his mouvement was considerably reduced, and you coudl almost see the spams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JlLDKt_Vzo

From 2h09mn... 5 all 40all...how stupid would it be stop in the middle of the rally? was he banking on Djoko to pull an easy ball away? Especially since that easy ball was due to cramping?

Tenez wrote:Just cramping. His serve went off , so served harder, his mouvement was considerably reduced, and you coudl almost see the spams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JlLDKt_Vzo

From 2h09mn... 5 all 40all...how stupid would it be stop in the middle of the rally? was he banking on Djoko to pull an easy ball away? Especially since that easy ball was due to cramping?

Is that all? C'mon....

What happened in the rest of the match?
Here's Dimitrov's serving statistics (1st serve) for the match, btw:

1st set : 54%
2nd set : 53%
3rd set : 53%

Djokovic on the other hand:

1st set: 73%
2nd set: 75%
3rd set: 63%

What do you mean is that all? Losing voluntarily a crucial point at 5all 40 all in the second set just so he can try to get into Djoko's mind?

On the other hand , taking a MTO at 30/40 on your opponent serve while being a break down to retape an already taped ankle has of course nothing to do with gamesmanship. That never crossed your mind I am sure.

Well let's get back to live tennis!

Tenez wrote:What do you mean is that all? Losing voluntarily a crucial point at 5all 40 all in the second set just so he can try to get into Djoko's mind?

On the other hand , taking a MTO at 30/40 on your opponent serve while being a break down to retape an already taped ankle has of course nothing to do with gamesmanship. That never crossed your mind I am sure.

Well let's get back to live tennis!

Thanks for that.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I just don;t understand how you cannot see Dimi cramping when the rest of the world did it so clearly. I am always the one suspicious about gamesmanship or any tricks players could come with but on that day I simply saw a player cramping scrapping to the finishing line.

Your main argument is that he coudl not have finished the match or run as much had he cramped. Well yes you can many do on the tour and I have too finished matches cramping.

Great!
The rest of the world also think that Nadal is a great humble champion.

Maybe I am blind, but always prefer to trust my own pair of eyes and I explained what I saw. What evidence of cramping did you see from Dimitrov?

Explain to me what evidence you saw that Novak hurt his ankle as badly as his theatrics made it seem. You, as a fan of the biggest quitter I have ever seen outside of Tipsy, should never open your mouth about another player faking an injury. Novak has been quitting matches since he came on the tour for the most ridiculous reason such as having a sore throat or being too hot. He was STILL quitting matches in his best year on the tour in 2011. Pot meet kettle, please.

And don't make me bring up how he admitted to cheating against Monfils at the USO by taking a strategic MTO, and don't make me bring up his getting treatment for cramps in that match as well. I'm sure that you probably don't even know about that since you have probably only been bandwagoning him since 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Gatlin

This case or athlete simply summarises the problem we have in sport. He just beat Bolt in Rome's 100. The gets his best time under testoreone in 2006 at 9.77.....yest comes back for the London olympics 6 years later and achieve a similar result (9.79) but "clean" this time.

It's clear that for a professional athlete the question is not doping or not....it's about having the right (test proof) dope or not.

Why do they even bother testing them?....just turn the $$$ tap off and they'll all become clean!

I don't really know what to think about it any more, I have stopped following athletics long time ago, refused to watch it even during London Olympics.

Athletes all look plastic, waxed/hairless, tattooed and frankly - ridiculous these days. You can only differentiate them by the "celebrations" now.

I feel sorry for new generations who don't know any different.
I'll be retiring/escaping to a desert island one of these days.....

I was browsing ja606 recently and stumbled across this comment by  Polbethian JFT96 (U4211).

"Tennis players are probably the most tested of all sportsmen on the planet."
My jaw dropped naturally and I'm tempted to show him this article to point him in the right direction. GIVE ME STRENGTH!
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/tramlines/shocking-drug-testing-statistics-tennis-revealed-185453980.html

Well LS, thats how 99% of people think.
As someone said, we are in a  small minority with the luxury of having a strong opinion on such a trivial subject.

It is because we love the sport, that we are upset to see it ruined.

I have long ago given up on athletics and most of other sports I used to love and follow passionately.

It's all money now, a package, a shiny wrapping with little inside.

With tennis, fortunately the advantages of doping can be reduced to a minimum by changing the playing conditions.

Make tennis more hand to eye coordination and less fitness dependant and you've on you way of solving the problem.

If they want it.

So long as Nadal is bringing cash to ATP pockets, we are not going to see that happen overnight.

That's why I hope he loses early in Wimbledon this year.

Admit it, with him away from it during those 7 months e have had the 25 second rule enforced an a lot of talk on longer grass season, SBH, faster courts started.

Hold on firm LS.

I am impressed how you keep all those links about doping. There were some good guys on Ja though.

It's what you do when you follow guys on twitter and keep up to date on cycling and drug related topics tenez.
What good guys?

Can't remember their names.....one was Red...something.

I wouldnt waste my time there LS, no matter how much facts,logic and common sense you throw at them,its impossible to reason with them

Un système où, il l'admet aujourd'hui, il ne risquait pas grand-chose, tant que la chasse, à balles blanc, se confinait au milieu sportif: "Je n'ai jamais eu peur des contrôles antidopage. Notre système était assez basique et sans risque. J'avais beaucoup plus peur de la douane et de la police." Aujourd'hui, il pense que rien n'a véritablement changé. Pat McQuaid peut dire et penser ce qu'il veut, il n'a aucun crédit en matière de lutte contre le dopage. Les choses ne pourront tout simplement pas changer si McQuaid reste au pouvoir." Un avis largement partagé dans le milieu.
======================
That's interesting bit from LA.

In short he says the TDF cannot be won without doping in the, past, now and in the future as long as McQuaid stays there.

He says what some of us have been saying is that he never feared a blood test but was scared of customs and police. WADA is completely useless....in fact I think they are part of the doping ring....trying to make us believe sport is clean by giving us small fishes and protecting the bigger ones.

I heard lance had only said it for the past.
He tweeted this.
Lance Armstrong ‏
[ltr]@lancearmstrong[/ltr]
15h
For the record, there is a significant difference between WAS and IS. Past and present tense.

But i guess he means now as well.

La like all other athletes cannot really accuse the "now" ones who have not been caught yet cause they may lack the tangible proof.

Landis was an exception when he accused Lance and that is because he had all the proof needed to back his accusations.

But LA reign started the year after the Festina affair....so He says doping was there before during and after (Landis, Cantador, etc.....) but obviously he cannot talk about the ones not caught yet....however he says that as long McQuaid is there he is pretty sure doping will remain.

kk, thats what I thought, but when you translate these french links, sometimes some of it gets a bit lost in translation.

I still love the tdf and it starts today!

This however gets me incensed! Millar makes out like he is a chosen prophet, leading the way forward.
"The doping era is a thing of the past, though not one that we should forget."
NO IT ISN'T!!!! Stop being so myopic!

I think he is just trying to convince us that everything is fine. At teh end of the day not many in the sport business care about doping. They know it's there and will never be able to control it....so the effort of controlling opinions is much easier than controlling doping.

This is what Millar cares about....our opinions....not doping.

reformed doper bla bla bla

Talking about doping, I read an interesting comment from Niki Pilic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Pilić - a decent former player fron the 60s&70s, now a coach in his own academy in Munich) and Novak's  & Gulbis's coach  in their younger days, openly expressed suspicion about Nadal's poor performance in Wimbledon in the last two years, these are his words (translated by moi)

"As for Nadal, I am very suspicious of him.Second year in a row, he plays a fantastic Roland Garros then he is  like a deflated tyre in Halle (withdrew) and Wimbledon. That is not a coincidence.
I don't have proof that he is doping, it is not my job to catch him. There are official institutions who s job it is too look after it.

I thought exactly the same. Maybe he was controlled last year and did not want to be caught again here.

Tenez wrote:I thought exactly the same. Maybe he was controlled last year and did not want to be caught again here.

Does this mean we can look forward to another 7 months of "injured knees"?

Well no cause this time I guess he preferred to play clean than risk it.

Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell fail drugs test.

Those news actually make me happy. It simply shows what sport is all about nowadays. It also shows that in track racing they catch athletes. I wish they would make a better effort in tennis.

I find it sad that quite high profile athletes resort to doping.

I am hoping they make more inroads into tennis.

I actually find it sad when they only catch small fishes. The better the athlete the more likely he/she is to cheat. At least it shows the sport organisers have some integrity.

Tennis is for me one of the worst sport in that regard.

That's proven it beyond reasonable doubt, here I thought Djokovic was innocent but now dodododa's 11 year old son is apparently taking boosters; well this changes everything.

I'm jesting of course, before anyone gets angry   

Where is the tumbleweed smiley when you need it?

My point still stands

Anyone can say anything on the internet, not necessarily reliable.

Julia Santamaria wrote:My point still stands

Anyone can say anything on the internet, not necessarily reliable.

You right. drug testing is much more reliable!

So reliable that athletes need to work very hard to get winning legs!

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/photos/les-photos-de-la-semaine-du-25-octobre-au-1er-novembre-slideshow/les-photos-de-la-semaine-du-25-octobre-au-1er-novembre-photo-1383558965394.html?format=embed

Never a dull moment these days in sports doping. 

http://fr.sports.yahoo.com/news/dopage---quand-rasmussen-s%E2%80%99injectait-du-sang-destin%C3%A9-aux-chiens-104836443.html

Just shows to which extend dopers were ready to go. I am sure you can find an english version somewhere. Amazing!