The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Wasn't quite sure which thread to have this in, but at least Lance should feel comfy and "at home" here

they had that joke about nike changing their name in light of the pistorius scandal to "don't do it"

In a way it's very good to have falling idols. Kids should not worship athletes. It's good to have a model but it;s important to keep those models in perspective. Understanding that nobody's perfect is a priceless lesson for the future.

One of my heroes, hitch, said we shouldn't have role models. Just a thought.

Tenez wrote:In a way it's very good to have falling idols. Kids should not worship athletes. It's good to have a model but it;s important to keep those models in perspective. Understanding that nobody's perfect is a priceless lesson for the future.

The problem aren't the kids so much as adults that refuse to grow up...

old puerto case timeline
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/index-operacion-puerto-trial-2013
http://www.marca.com/2013/04/02/en/more_sports/1364920262.html

"Fuentes acted inside Spanish Law"

Well we knew that but the problem is that his athletes were competing on international grounds and were therefore illegally doped!

Will they stop taking us for fools?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22353145

So the Doctor is guilty but the 200 cheats are not!

This was a banana republic trial!

Tenez wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22353145

So the Doctor is guilty but the 200 cheats are not!

This was a banana republic trial!

Pretty depressing read.
And to think I was so naively hopeful and looked forward to that trial...

As soon as Nadal came out in public and "wondered" why the judge didn't want to reveal the names I knew it was a sham.

The trial covered a period of 7-8 years ago. Now, everyone's caught up with the latest "medical" advances and we as human race are getting better, faster, stronger: yipeeeee!!!

3 words: Waste of time!

luvsports! wrote:3 words: Waste of time!

Especially for Fuentes!

Maybe in his rage he will give in everybody!

I blame that Juan-Antionio Samaran...he's had his fingers in every pie. I bet if he was still alive, there wouldn't've been even this Fuentes trial.
Same as this Sepp Blatter.

Everyone knows everything in those circles and at international level too, but they don't care so long as they are on public money jolly traveling around the world, looking sagely and important, cutting ribbons, lighting olympic flames...what a joke!

Sporting world has gone mad and spiralling out of control now. Is there a clean sport going around these days?

Tenez wrote:

luvsports! wrote:3 words: Waste of time!

Especially for Fuentes!
Maybe in his rage he will give in everybody!

Doubt it!
He's just a part of this circus show and probably already struck a deal. What was it to stop him to go to any newspaper and hand out the list?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-true-cause-of-the-death-of-david-kelly/30202
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303190/Michael-Howard-leads-MPs-Dr-David-Kelly-inquest.html#ixzz1rUn5UqRO
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/09/david-kelly-new-inquest-ruled-out

lawn bowls?

I just saw on the news that a Spanish judge today ordered that all the blood bags and doping evidence linked to operacion Peurto be destroyed,especially those of the famous Spanish footballers

Veejay wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2317138/Eufemiano-Fuentes-given-year-suspended-sentence-blood-bags-destroyed.html

Unbelievable!

Karma is a bitch..Madrid knocked out of the champions league...hahaha..maybe they should have paid Fuentes for his services

noleisthebest wrote:....Is there a clean sport going around these days?

Not even golf.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/golf/22362070

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:....Is there a clean sport going around these days?

Not even golf.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/golf/22362070

I suppose that's the way the world is going.
Athletes dope to be faster and stronger, men to feel - and women to look younger...where will it end?

..And the funniest of all is all those people/celebrities disfigured with plastic surgeries denying they had them, just like athletes deny they dope!!!
The ultimate was Michael Jackson who said he never had anything done to his face....

Posters will dope too to sound smarter!

I am pretty sure some on v2 don't dope.

Tenez wrote:Posters will dope too to sound smarter!

I am pretty sure some on v2 don't dope.

That's the most dangerous kind , although it does have its comical side !

This is refreshing to hear!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/22363900

and murrays thoughts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22363860

Here comes the killjoy:

I have just had a heavy dose of natural dope: cherry blossom, birdsong, sunshine, gentle breeze, riding the bike to the tennis court and than playing with the ball of wool, forehand-bakchand cha-cha cha!... coffee with the oldies that call you "pet" loooovely

luvsports! wrote:and murrays thoughts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22363860

It's good to have top athletes speak out, although I don't think it will make any difference, they know they are all safe, and this mockery of Fuentes case is the latest proof....because it's not the love of sport that is leading the way, but the love of money....

luvsports! wrote:and murrays thoughts
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22363860

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22363860[/quote[/url]]

They all sound like LA nowadays.

If Murray does not dope, no-one does.

I think its good even if the dopers are complainging
The repercussions of destroying the evidence in the Fuentes trial is so vast,you cant even get our head around it
Just think about it,this could be the only evidence we will ever have to nail drug cheats..I really hope the ruling gets over turned
Casting a shaddow over Spainsih sport wouldnt be enough,cause it will just be forgotton about in a few years time

Yes though destroying or not, allows us to incriminate who we want and no-one can say "innocent until proven guilty" anymore.

So I'll start: There is proof out there that top spanish tennis players have been doping!



How cool is that.

Agree,Spain has over and over again sent out the same message- "we will help our athletes to dope and we will protect them"
From the super injunction on the list of clients who received treatments from Fuentes to their own prime minister exonerating Contodor to now destroying all evidence resultung in the biggest cover up in the history of sport

They have given us no option but to conclude that Spanish athlete = doping athlete until proven otherwise

Nadal's thoughts on the end of Fuentes case:

"My opinion is that the ruling wasn't positive for anyone. The only ones that benefitted were the ones who cheated. The ones that are hurt are Spanish athletes (he cannot be serious!) and sports in general.

The image this transmits to the world isn't the one we were hoping for. I think it is a mistake that the names (of Fuentes' clients) are not known, but that is what happened. (says he with a sigh of huge relief...) We will keep working so that sports stays clean (yeah, yeah, ) and this doesn't happen again in the future."

noleisthebest wrote: We will keep working so that sports stays clean (yeah, yeah, ) and this doesn't happen again in the future."

Yes and Odesnik is already working with the ITF and antidoping agencies to help the fight against cheats so we can be reassured everything is done keep the sport clean.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote: We will keep working so that sports stays clean (yeah, yeah, ) and this doesn't happen again in the future."

Yes and Odesnik is already working with the ITF and antidoping agencies to help the fight against cheats so we can be reassured everything is done keep the sport clean.

To me, the most worrying fact is that 99% of people will believe the lie, either out of ignorance or by choice.

The question that remains is how far can sport go with the drugs in it before it implodes.
And what will athletes look like, say during 2032 Olympics?
And when will the 100m race record hit the brick wall?

Thats a good question NITB,I have been wondering the same thing
Just look at how much the game has changed in 10 years,first it became more of a power game especially on the womans side,so players like Henin and Hingus stood no chance against the power players,now the game has become more about athleticism and endurance.Whats next?
Truth is every player knows they stand pretty much no chance against a doping athlete,even Federer with all the talent in the world and every possible shot imaginable stood little to no chance against one of the least talented players in the draw,who is one the juice
The dilema is either you play clean which guarantees little to no suscces,or you dope to keep up and become another reason for someone else to start doping too

Its obvious taking into consideration the way the game is played today,that there is most likely a much higher % of players doping today then there probably was a decade ago and that the elite athletes have an even bigger advantage using advanced doping technology over the average player who cant afford it

But I dont think tennis can become more physical,even with the drugs and I am 100% certain that continuing the drug culture will guarantee eventually hitting a brick wall of physical saturation,crashing and bruging.
We will also bascially end up with a bunch of "Nadal's" playing the sport,i.e all manufactured by racket technology and drugs and no players career will last longer then a decade,in fact I would be surprised if they dont burn out after 5 years
I dont think things can really go much further,I think theres about a 5-10% margin left before they hit the wall,theres very little room left for improvement or progress cause no ones body can be pushed that much without repercussions and certain things are completely impossible to achieve cause even the drugs have limits..Sure we see records being broken all the time,but I dont think there will ever be a day when someone runs 100 meters in under 6 seconds or that there will ever be a day that someone will run a marathon in an hour,or that someone routinely serves 300 mph
I dont think any athlete would be able to play two 8-9 hour matches back to back to win a major,and still manage to keep going for the rest of the season without any consequence,and if that becomes what it takes to win a major,it significatly reduces a players chances of winning another major in a season.
If hypothetically some miracle drug is invented that does allow it,theres nothing available to combat the mental fatigue that comes from concentrating that intensely for so many hours consistently
I think once everyone is doping or has caught up with Nadals fitness and athletcism and speed ,they gonna have to look at other ways to beat their opponent.
As seen with Nadal,it wont be enough

Hopefully the game will go back to being more of a racket sport again,perhaps revive some dying styles or create new ones in the process.But apart from racket/surface technology I cant think of any other influence of change or direction that the sport can possibly go in,unless you can?

Veejay wrote:Truth is every player knows they stand pretty much no chance against a doping athlete,even Federer with all the talent in the world and every possible shot imaginable stood little to no chance against one of the least talented players in the draw,who is one the juice

I thought I was the only one seeing it that way!

It's simply obvious that Nadal's game is based on minimising talent role on his and opponent side but fans always want to associate slams # with talent. Not how it works unfortunately.

I think its simply because he wasnt born with the gift for the game,if it wasnt for his "athleticism" (uncle tony) the man-child wouldnt stand a chance
Thats bascially what every Nadal fans gets confussed about re his "talent",but you know my opinion on the matter,if he was a natural athelete then I would say yes,that gives him a shot at most sports but he would still fall waaayyy short in comparison to Federer,Murray,Gasquet,Djokovic,etc
Id say he is probably the least talented top 20 player,( I actually mean top 50 but I wont push it) and its really really really obvious
Lukas Rosol is more talented then him..you take the drugs and racquet technology away from him and that will expose his true ability,I doubt he would even be half the player he is
I would have said this is a good argument to prove that hard work can compensate for lack of talent but all his achievements are tainted with various forms of cheating

Yes I also agree. certainly not top 50 for me talent wise. There are way too many talented players out there.

I might say that he may be more talented than he looks but since he was completely fashioned by Tony who never wanted him to develop his own natural skills (RH, flatter, etc..) then we might not know the full extend of his talent. So talent is simply irrelevant for me when it comes to discussing Nadal. You can even see that his volleys and drop shots have huge margins, helped by the fact his power and spin pushes the payer outer of teh court.

Veejay wrote: Hopefully the game will go back to being more of a racket sport again,perhaps revive some dying styles or create new ones in the process.But apart from racket/surface technology I cant think of any other influence of change or direction that the sport can possibly go in,unless you can?

I look at cycling and athletic and am less optimistic. I don't think tennis will ever go back to where it used to be.

Talented players may emerge and capture our imagination, but that's very hard with the way they are all being firstly selected and then trained these days.

The problem is, another generation of fans has come that has no idea of how things used to be, all they know is Nadal. Children in clubs want to copy Nadal. Adults want to copy Nadal.

It will be a miracle to have a talented ball-striker come through the ranks, for example, I love the way Berankis hits the ball, but where is he? Who has heard of him and who cares about him....
Same with Dolgpolov and a lot of others.

Physicality helped by doping is the end of all sport. It takes away the spark out of it. Like eating battery chicken.

Because tennis is not pure monotonous running or cycling and still has the element of creation and points dynamics even at today's level of play it looks interesting, but it could be so much better if players were allowed to let the ball-striking and not their endurance dictate and determine winning dynamics.

It's really sad it's come to this and even this younger crop is having to waste their energy and discipline on fitness these days as that is the only way they can make money. And who can blame them, it is their job and they don't want to flush the years of hard work and training down the drain now that they have come so close to it.

But you have Dr Fuentes and Julia Santamarias of this world just walking all over sport in their filthy muddy boots and spreading enormous damage.

Talking of tennis talent, here's an interesting article on today's talent, players that may never win a slam but will certainly provoke laughter from Nadal fans if you told them they are all more talented than Nadal, but then again, what do they know about tennis anyway

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/05/brilliance-and-buffoonery/47330/#.UYZtKHDRfzI

It will be a miracle to have a talented ball-striker come through the ranks, for example, I love the way Berankis hits the ball, but where is he? Who has heard of him and who cares about him....
Same with Dolgpolov and a lot of others.

Actually I think there will always be a new kid on the block who will make all those machines look like machines. Nature always finds a way. Remember Borg? though I was a fan he was the robot able to run everythig down till the likes of Nastase, Guerulatis, Pecci, etc...got tired and gave up. Then to join Borg you had Clerc, Vilas, and other relentless baseliners but suddenly McEnroe comes along and makes then look like boring machines. When Federer took over you had the quadra lungs players like Hewitt/Ferrero and the 1D huge servers like Roddick and Ruds tking over the top of the game...he made them all look what they were..1 D. Nalby coudl have helped him but was simply too inconsistent.

I have no doubt that talent will shine through again. Look at Djoko, he even looks talented compared to Nadal and frankly ball striking wise he woudl struggle in the top 20 too. Other will follow and make them look worse even.

Tenez wrote: Actually I think there will always be a new kid on the block who will make all those machines look like machines. Nature always finds a way. Remember Borg? though I was a fan he was the robot able to run everythig down till the likes of Nastase, Guerulatis, Pecci, etc...got tired and gave up. Then to join Borg you had Clerc, Vilas, and other relentless baseliners but suddenly McEnroe comes along and makes then look like boring machines. When Federer took over you had the quadra lungs players like Hewitt/Ferrero and the 1D huge servers like Roddick and Ruds tking over the top of the game...he made them all look what they were..1 D. Nalby coudl have helped him but was simply too inconsistent.

I have no doubt that talent will shine through again. Look at Djoko, he even looks talented compared to Nadal and frankly ball striking wise he woudl struggle in the top 20 too. Other will follow and make them look worse even.

It's a logical way to think, but although I don't remember Borg (my dad took me to football matches when I was little, so I had to discover tennis myself) I think it may be a tall order for anyone to do what Federer did.

If someone like Federer could not harness Nadal's unnatural power and style (taking all the circumstances and conditions that contributed to that effect into account) I am not very optimistic that someone else will in future. If anything, things may get even worse. I am not talking about Nadal here, but a future number one, say in 5-10 years.

It hurts me a lot to think that Federer is probably the last player that will have won a slam playing with a SBH. It would have to be another prodigy and prodigies come once in a hundred years. They are not manufactured by PR machines like Nadal.

I would love nothing more than to be 100% on this, of course.

noleisthebest wrote:If someone like Federer could not harness Nadal's unnatural power and style (taking all the circumstances and conditions that contributed to that effect into account) I am not very optimistic that someone else will in future. If anything, things may get even worse. I am not talking about Nadal here, but a future number one, say in 5-10 years.

It hurts me a lot to think that Federer is probably the last player that will have won a slam playing with a SBH. It would have to be another prodigy and prodigies come once in a hundred years. They are not manufactured by PR machines like Nadal.

I would love nothing more than to be 100% on this, of course.

Yes good point but as said evolution always finds a way, be it the race between hunters and hunted or attackers and retrievers. Look we even have already someone a bit like Federer but a more powerful version. Give Dimi a couple more years, maybe less even and he will surprise us...and if not him someone else...and a SHBH too. Technology might also evolve in favour of the attacking players like the graphite racquets did. It's all open. Recently technology/Diets have helped the retrievers but who knows what's around the corner?

Tenez wrote:Yes good point but as said evolution always finds a way, be it the race between hunters and hunted or attackers and retrievers. Look we even have already someone a bit like Federer but a more powerful version. Give Dimi a couple more years, maybe less even and he will surprise us...and if not him someone else...and a SHBH too. Technology might also evolve in favour of the attacking players like the graphite racquets did. It's all open. Recently technology/Diets have helped the retrievers but who knows what's around the corner?

One thing which is good about Dimi: he loves to play. I suppose that's a good start. Beggars can't be choosers.

tenez you think dimi is more powerful than feds/??
I dont at all.

He is. He is 1inch taller to start with and he does muscle the ball pretty well. Fed is more about timing. Dimi is more sheer force. Imagine Federer at 22...he woudl have been nowhere near able to rally as much with today's Djoko.

Fed's shots were hit flatter back then but the bounce was lower and balls were flying faster. Today Dimi manages to recreate the "Federer FH effect" in today's conds on clay. That really requires power.

I thought it was obvious that Dimi is builkier....am I the only one who sees it like that? (forget the kilos on the atp site...most likely completely out of date).

Tenez wrote: I thought it was obvious that Dimi is builkier....am I the only one who sees it like that? (forget the kilos on the atp site...most likely completely out of date).

I think that Federer is a natural-born athlete and is supremely coordinated, that reflects so well in his footwork, Dimitrov is behind him in that area which is why he comes across as heavier, it's more his movement than the weight, I think. He also hits the ball harder and then comes across as more physical. He is also thicker at the waist.

His timing is also quite behind Federer's.

Really, when you look at Dimitrov, there is no magic at all. Federer is a bit like Cindarella before and Dimitrov after midnight.

To me Dimi has simply bigger torso and arms. He certainly looks strong. Federer looks more like the guy next door. Dimi looks liek a modern athlete....not too much but strong enough. I am surprised LS doesn't see it that way. At least I think everybody agrees that arm seixe wise it's pretty clear who is stronger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr7c0PX5MOY
this is feds at 20 going on 21 and he looks pretty stocky no?
He looks bigger across the chest here and torso than dimi does now at 21 going on 22.

also why is dimi's fitness so poor?
You may argue that he cramped because he has played the two most physical players. But to cramp twice in a b03 setter, not even a b05! And he cramped massively in the 2nd set vs gasquet at the FO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9foAe38cz8