US Open - 2019

by Jahu Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:10 pm

Draw at 18:00 time/17:00 BST for non-metricated Brexiters.

https://www.usopen.org/en_US/draws/index.html

Goooo :

Fed
Thiem
Stan
Kyrgios

Come on !!!

by Jahu Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:08 pm

https://www.usopen.org/en_US/news/articles/2019-08-22/defending_champ_djokovic_federer_in_same_half_of_2019_us_open_mens_draw.html

Fed/Djoko same half

Federer's Projected Opponents

Round 1: Qualifier
Round 2: Damir Dzhumur
Round 3: Lucas Pouille
Round 4: David Goffin
Quarter Final: Kei Nishikori
Semi Final: Novak Djokovic
Final: Rafael Nadal

Draw pdf: https://www.perfect-tennis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/us-open-draw-2019.pdf

by summerblues Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:45 am

Not a bad draw for Fed. The best of the Big 3 I would say. Avoids pretty much all of the biggest threats until SF.

by Tenez Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:02 am

The USO...the most screwed tournament when it comes to rigging. The USO has clearly been guilty in the past and has no shame doing it again, just like US presidents justifying wars... Click on the https://www.usopen.org/index.html site and you have the big picture of who they support!

Once again, Nadal has by far the easiest draw, placed by hand. Once again the USO puts Djoko in Federer's half...how many times has this happened in the last 12 years? Once again, Djoko finds himself to fight Medv the player on form. Nadal's draw is likely to get easier as he goes deeper.

This 1/4096 in 2011 was certainly no luck.

by naxroy Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:46 am

Lets see what the three times champion claycourter can do this year

by N2D2L Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:48 am

For once I agree with Tenez. US Open definitely rig the draws.
In fact the draws this year throughout the ATP tournaments have been an absolute joke. Dimitrov vs Wawrinka (a match which obviously would attract fans- esp Fed fans) have been drawn in Round 1 4 times in 2019, a statistical anomaly.
With the USO in particular, I remember SB linked a study which showed the top seeds have over the past decade got lower ranked players in R1 than statistically expected.

As for this upcoming edition, it's clear they want a Federer vs Nadal final.
Medvedev is the most tiring match for Djokovic, so they put him in the QF and Federer in the semi, so Federer can take advantage of a tired Djok. Nadal got a relative cupcake, his hardest opponent in his half is Kyrgios/Thiem in the SF, but there's no guarantee that either will even reach there.
Also they put Serena vs Sharapova in Round 1, a match which will have a lot of publicity after their public fight after Sharapova released her book.

I read somewhere that USO is the only slam who don't bother with a draw ceremony, they just have the draw done in private, and the ceremony is people analysing the draw. Not sure if that's true, but wouldn't be surprising.

by barrystar Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:48 am

I remember thinking that after Wimbledon the US Open was the 'big one', now I think it's an anomalous mixture of a tennis tournament, entertainment spectacle, monument to poor infrastructure management, and unconvincing 'woke-fest'.

When they aren't trying to pretend how woke they are, the USO are too focused on the bottom line - meaning that their schedules are hopelessly screwed by TV so that a whiff of rain throws the whole thing overboard, and when they do eventually get a roof it has serious acoustic problems because the overwhelming criteria is that it is the biggest. Does anyone remember the Roddick match when there was water seeping out of the cracks of an under-maintained show court at the back of the court? To me the sight of trying to catch up on rain delays with a schedule already distorted by TV on a leaking Court pretty much said it all about the USO. Even without rain we still see regular post-midnight finishes in front of tiny crowds because they need to get home.

The Australian Open has quietly gotten on with it and, to me, taken over the USO as the most prestigious hard-court slam. The most delicious dilemma they face is how to combine 'wokeness' with having the Margaret Court Arena - the USTA would have absolutely no idea how to deal with her legacy were she a US player.

by bogbrush Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:25 pm

Totally agree barry, I used to really rate the USO as the Slam that allowed a fair contest between the slow and fast court specialists.

It's degraded so that it's now a slow court surface and all the garbage you report too. It's also got beyond the point where I can argue the draws aren't rigged. They don't even make the effort to pretend it's clean by doing the draw openly. That would be easy to do and would suit the usual American appetite for a bit of theatre, so why not? Only one clear reason I can see.

It's now the poor relation of the four Slam events.

by legendkillar Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:38 pm

Coming up to day 3 of a Slam and the forum is like a morgue. Mindful of life getting in the way in between, however if there was ever a sign of how badly the interest is in the game and in this Slam is quite shocking. The biggest hinderance being Amazon Prime's coverage of the Slam. Don't think the organisers thought that one through. I used to love the coverage on Sky, but now my interest in the game is slowly dying.

2019 has been an absolute bore. Take this Slam. Out of the top 10 seeds post first round we have 4 already eliminated. I am willing to take a punt by the second week the top 3 will remain and maybe Nish. Which is pretty akin to Wimbledon!Pains me to say that the only real competitive Slam this year as the French Open! Having watched the tennis post Clay, this next gen yes can rally, but fuck me do they lack not just the killer instinct but also killer shots! Evident to me on Clay they might stand a chance, off that they are screwed. I could take watching Federer all day and to a point Nadal and Djokovic. All those who may bemoan Nadal and Djokovic, least they have the decency and guts to give a good fist of a match. It's not a lack of will which will prove their undoing.

I really don't know where I am with tennis. Only adventure aside from Murray's return is Federer's quest for Gold come 2020. Other than that, zero interest. None of the youngsters are really wowing me like of bygone eras. It's a causal "ooooh he looks ok." and all hope is dashed when they bomb like a Brexit negotiation meeting between MPs! The sport is really sleepwalking to a steep decline not just in interest, but participation too. The sport needs something/someone to believe in. All I've heard this year from the press and media "Federer at his age" or "Coco is only 15" or "Serena being a mum" it's a celebration of mediocrity rather than quality and talent. The sport has reduced itself to a pitiful rubble!

The sad part for me. Kyrgios. If he had half a clue, he could carry this sport on his back. All too consumed by being something that he won't be fondly remembered for. There's an opportunity for him to step up to the plate and crowd it! Instead, just wasting it. Just like the sport has with developing and progressing promising youngsters.

It's written almost like it was born out of a Shakespeare tragedy.

by legendkillar Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:47 pm

barrystar wrote:I remember thinking that after Wimbledon the US Open was the 'big one', now I think it's an anomalous mixture of a tennis tournament, entertainment spectacle, monument to poor infrastructure management, and unconvincing 'woke-fest'.

When they aren't trying to pretend how woke they are, the USO are too focused on the bottom line - meaning that their schedules are hopelessly screwed by TV so that a whiff of rain throws the whole thing overboard, and when they do eventually get a roof it has serious acoustic problems because the overwhelming criteria is that it is the biggest. Does anyone remember the Roddick match when there was water seeping out of the cracks of an under-maintained show court at the back of the court? To me the sight of trying to catch up on rain delays with a schedule already distorted by TV on a leaking Court pretty much said it all about the USO. Even without rain we still see regular post-midnight finishes in front of tiny crowds because they need to get home.

The Australian Open has quietly gotten on with it and, to me, taken over the USO as the most prestigious hard-court slam. The most delicious dilemma they face is how to combine 'wokeness' with having the Margaret Court Arena - the USTA would have absolutely no idea how to deal with her legacy were she a US player.

Do recall the Roddick scene. He pulled no punches in that one! Even the referee was bemused by his frankness.

Sadly the US Open coverage and attention is monopolised by that gobshite charlatan Serena. That's how morally desperate they are. Matters not how much a stain on society that scab is, she is still built to represent something like an oppressed rose. Though like a rose, if you sat on her, she'd still be a pain in the arse!

by Tenez Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:49 pm

"Nadal had a boulevard to the final, he now has a motorway" titles a French paper.

It is absurd.

by N2D2L Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:59 pm

The draw was rigged to help Nadal and Federer, and to make it hard as possible for Djokovic.

However, the tour is so shit that Djokovic's 'hard' draw immediately becomes easy if Federer goes out. Because Medvedev is only good for tiring him out, Med can never beat Djokovic in a slam with his passive game. If Djokovic has Med in the QF, and then a nobody in the SF, he won't be tired for the final.

by N2D2L Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:07 pm

Federer playing shit early on.

The funny thing about Medvedev being seen as a 'threat' for Djokovic is it shows how much the game has declined. If this was 2012, I honestly believe Ferrer would bully and destroy the current Medvedev.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:21 pm

legendkillar wrote:Coming up to day 3 of a Slam and the forum is like a morgue. Mindful of life getting in the way in between, however if there was ever a sign of how badly the interest is in the game and in this Slam is quite shocking. The biggest hinderance being Amazon Prime's coverage of the Slam. Don't think the organisers thought that one through. I used to love the coverage on Sky, but now my interest in the game is slowly dying.

2019 has been an absolute bore. Take this Slam. Out of the top 10 seeds post first round we have 4 already eliminated. I am willing to take a punt by the second week the top 3 will remain and maybe Nish. Which is pretty akin to Wimbledon!Pains me to say that the only real competitive Slam this year as the French Open! Having watched the tennis post Clay, this next gen yes can rally, but fuck me do they lack not just the killer instinct but also killer shots! Evident to me on Clay they might stand a chance, off that they are screwed. I could take watching Federer all day and to a point Nadal and Djokovic. All those who may bemoan Nadal and Djokovic, least they have the decency and guts to give a good fist of a match. It's not a lack of will which will prove their undoing.

I really don't know where I am with tennis. Only adventure aside from Murray's return is Federer's quest for Gold come 2020. Other than that, zero interest. None of the youngsters are really wowing me like of bygone eras. It's a causal "ooooh he looks ok." and all hope is dashed when they bomb like a Brexit negotiation meeting between MPs! The sport is really sleepwalking to a steep decline not just in interest, but participation too. The sport needs something/someone to believe in. All I've heard this year from the press and media "Federer at his age" or "Coco is only 15" or "Serena being a mum" it's a celebration of mediocrity rather than quality and talent. The sport has reduced itself to a pitiful rubble!

The sad part for me. Kyrgios. If he had half a clue, he could carry this sport on his back. All too consumed by being something that he won't be fondly remembered for. There's an opportunity for him to step up to the plate and crowd it! Instead, just wasting it. Just like the sport has with developing and progressing promising youngsters.

It's written almost like it was born out of a Shakespeare tragedy.

Absolutely agree. After AO results, I had a bet with a friend at work that Tsitsi and Thiem would be a slam winners in 2019. Thiem came closer, but Tsitsi is blown off. Hasn't defended anything from last year.

If 4 of the Top-10 get eliminated in R1, who can blame the draw? It's open.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:23 pm

DEC1M8 wrote:The draw was rigged to help Nadal and Federer, and to make it hard as possible for Djokovic.

However, the tour is so shit that Djokovic's 'hard' draw immediately becomes easy if Federer goes out. Because Medvedev is only good for tiring him out, Med can never beat Djokovic in a slam with his passive game. If Djokovic has Med in the QF, and then a nobody in the SF, he won't be tired for the final.

I don't believe in draw rigging, its hearsay and nothing other than 'what are the possibilities'. There is no substance to such talks in my opinion.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:25 pm

DEC1M8 wrote:Federer playing shit early on.

The funny thing about Medvedev being seen as a 'threat' for Djokovic is it shows how much the game has declined. If this was 2012, I honestly believe Ferrer would bully and destroy the current Medvedev.

This Dzumhur is a grinder. Such players can grind Fed into error early on. He is solid right now.

My only concern is losing sets and added time on court this early. It can affect his chances given his 38+ years of age.

by naxroy Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 pm

there is no draw rigging

by N2D2L Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:07 pm

US Open is the only slam where the draw ceremony doesn't show seeds being picked out of a random bucket and placed in the draw.
Instead the draw is just analysis of a draw made in private: https://www.facebook.com/usopentennis/videos/555675544972012/?notif_id=1566489621665176&notif_t=live_video_explicit

If they're making the draw in private, by the organisers, who is to say they won't pick it to their convenience?
Serena drew Sharapova in Round 1, interesting given their public splat.

by N2D2L Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:09 pm

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6850893/espn-analysis-finds-top-seeds-tennis-us-open-had-easier-draw-statistically-likely

by luvsports! Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:41 pm

by Tenez Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:43 pm

naxroy wrote:there is no draw rigging

I have always said it was the fact people were credulous like you that we do indeed have so much corruption in this world.

Naxroy is directly responsible for corruption. Wherever there is weakness and stupidity evil takes over.

by Tenez Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 pm

luvsports! wrote:

Yeah...started with bigger balls (for men only of course in 2010) and added sand in paint to allow Nadal to finally be able to beat a top 16 (or ws it 32?) seed.

by Tenez Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:54 pm

I don;t understand those who think the USO was ever a great slam. Always corrupt and a joke when it came to organisation with 3 starting days ( top players having to play 7 best of 5 in 10 days when starting the tournament on Weds. Awful "super saturday finals...and the most chauvinist and loud crowd of them all. Just check no slam has more "compatriot" winners than the US.

by N2D2L Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:25 pm

Tenez, round 1 was on Monday and Tuesday. No one started today.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:49 am

DEC1M8 wrote:Tenez, round 1 was on Monday and Tuesday. No one started today.

Just for once this time. Maybe they are very slow learners. Till last year Rnd1 were being played as late as Wed.

by legendkillar Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:13 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Coming up to day 3 of a Slam and the forum is like a morgue. Mindful of life getting in the way in between, however if there was ever a sign of how badly the interest is in the game and in this Slam is quite shocking. The biggest hinderance being Amazon Prime's coverage of the Slam. Don't think the organisers thought that one through. I used to love the coverage on Sky, but now my interest in the game is slowly dying.

2019 has been an absolute bore. Take this Slam. Out of the top 10 seeds post first round we have 4 already eliminated. I am willing to take a punt by the second week the top 3 will remain and maybe Nish. Which is pretty akin to Wimbledon!Pains me to say that the only real competitive Slam this year as the French Open! Having watched the tennis post Clay, this next gen yes can rally, but fuck me do they lack not just the killer instinct but also killer shots! Evident to me on Clay they might stand a chance, off that they are screwed. I could take watching Federer all day and to a point Nadal and Djokovic. All those who may bemoan Nadal and Djokovic, least they have the decency and guts to give a good fist of a match. It's not a lack of will which will prove their undoing.

I really don't know where I am with tennis. Only adventure aside from Murray's return is Federer's quest for Gold come 2020. Other than that, zero interest. None of the youngsters are really wowing me like of bygone eras. It's a causal "ooooh he looks ok." and all hope is dashed when they bomb like a Brexit negotiation meeting between MPs! The sport is really sleepwalking to a steep decline not just in interest, but participation too. The sport needs something/someone to believe in. All I've heard this year from the press and media "Federer at his age" or "Coco is only 15" or "Serena being a mum" it's a celebration of mediocrity rather than quality and talent. The sport has reduced itself to a pitiful rubble!

The sad part for me. Kyrgios. If he had half a clue, he could carry this sport on his back. All too consumed by being something that he won't be fondly remembered for. There's an opportunity for him to step up to the plate and crowd it! Instead, just wasting it. Just like the sport has with developing and progressing promising youngsters.

It's written almost like it was born out of a Shakespeare tragedy.

Absolutely agree. After AO results, I had a bet with a friend at work that Tsitsi and Thiem would be a slam winners in 2019. Thiem came closer, but Tsitsi is blown off. Hasn't defended anything from last year.

If 4 of the Top-10 get eliminated in R1, who can blame the draw? It's open.

And that would seem quite a decent bet to make. The tail off from the next gen has been quite dramatic if being honest. The HC swing was desperate viewing as they capitulated essentially.

You can't blame the draw for the failings of these top tenners. I think whilst the likes of Ferrer, Berdych, Tsonga were lamented for limited success, least they could go deep in the Slams and be some form of competition for the Big 3.

It's proper one hit wonder territory we are in. Tsitsy and Thiem can beat Federer and Djokovic in a Slam and then succumb to Rublev and Fabbiano. The Big 3 would be bonkers to even consider retirement given how crap this lot really are.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:33 am

Tenez wrote:I don;t understand those who think the USO was ever a great slam. Always corrupt and a joke when it came to organisation with 3 starting days ( top players having to play 7 best of 5 in 10 days when starting the tournament on Weds. Awful "super saturday finals...and the most chauvinist and loud crowd of them all. Just check no slam has more "compatriot" winners than the US.

Mostly Americans. I have seen Isner's interviews where he says so. And so did John Mac, Agassi.

But US open have also been the pioneer to some of the most important innovations in tennis. I'll give examples.

1. Adapting to HE
2. Switching to a finite 5th set TB and not leaving the last set as the last man standing match.
3. Introducing The Shot-Clock.
4. Going for a roof on multiple courts despite the massive size of the Stadium ( Though some players do complain about the noise and heat under the closed roof).

by barrystar Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:42 am

DEC1M8 wrote:https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6850893/espn-analysis-finds-top-seeds-tennis-us-open-had-easier-draw-statistically-likely

I thought this was interesting:

IDS has been providing the random draw software for the U.S. Open for more than 10 years, and does the draw for the Australian Open.

I found what Widmaier said about the sample being small (one tournament) persuasive but I also found what Swift said about the average rank of top seeds' opponents worrying too.
Were I the organiser in the face of that article I'd want to do something to stop people wondering. Perhaps film the 'ceremony' and have journalists present, like a press conference.
Also, and subject to any commercial confidentiality of the provider, really examine and explain how the software works. I would not want to be the outlier slam and spoken of in that way. I don't know what people in the US think, but if the lack of interest in this forum noted by Legendkiller is at all representative tennis is in trouble, and the USO particularly

by Tenez Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:22 pm

DEC1M8 wrote:Tenez, round 1 was on Monday and Tuesday. No one started today.

I know they don't do it anymore but have done it for years until recently.

by Jahu Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:59 pm

Fed complained last night of court being slow like clay, suckssss

by legendkillar Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:04 pm

Tenez wrote:I don;t understand those who think the USO was ever a great slam. Always corrupt and a joke when it came to organisation with 3 starting days ( top players having to play 7 best of 5 in 10 days when starting the tournament on Weds. Awful "super saturday finals...and the most chauvinist and loud crowd of them all. Just check no slam has more "compatriot" winners than the US.

I have to say that late night matches at Flushing Meadows has a real atmosphere and excitement about it.

Despite that I haven't enjoyed the atmosphere in recent times (more so when it comes to Serena matches). The worst of them and the reaction she gets from them is appalling. Didn't mind them in Roddick or Agassi matches as I felt there was a warmth to them that stretched beyond 'partisan' appeal. When that warmth is not there, then you do get the worst kind of support. In fairness though their not far off the FO in that regard.

The Super Saturday was a pure commercial fuck up. Epitomised what I hated the most in the USO. Now they've put an end to that, I am relieved, but at the same time it shows they see no stock in it now as a spectacle or even attraction.

Serena casts a large shadow over the USO and the fans that support her have also cast an equally greater shadow that it won't escape until she naffs off into the sunset. I would argue the political landscape in the US has generated an even stronger partisan following of the sport or sport in general.

In a lot of ways it's what I like about the AO. The crowd are interested in the sport and the matches and rarely get whipped into frenzies that I've seen at the other Slams. Wimbledon has a tradition of conduct which is pleasing to see exists still.

I am pleased though the idiotic mentality currently existing in football fans isn't spilling into tennis!

by naxroy Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:07 pm

Tenez wrote:
naxroy wrote:there is no draw rigging

I have always said it was the fact people were credulous like you that we do indeed have so much corruption in this world.

Naxroy is directly responsible for corruption. Wherever there is weakness and stupidity evil takes over.

this was funny

by Wow. Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 pm

How come Nadal always to get to play useless Verdasco every time? I just hope Kokkinakis get him tired out tonight. Then hope Cilic to do the damage. Can't see Zverev going any further with this kind of game.

by Tenez Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:45 pm

naxroy wrote:
Tenez wrote:
naxroy wrote:there is no draw rigging

I have always said it was the fact people were credulous like you that we do indeed have so much corruption in this world.

Naxroy is directly responsible for corruption. Wherever there is weakness and stupidity evil takes over.

this was funny

That's the other thing. Those very same people do not the see the effect of their lightness and thoughtless lives.

Try to argue at least instead of trying to deflect from the matter.

by Tenez Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:50 pm

[quote="barrystar"]

DEC1M8 wrote:https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6850893/espn-analysis-finds-top-seeds-tennis-us-open-had-easier-draw-statistically-likely

I thought this was interesting:

Can you dig down a bit or are you scared of being seen as a conspiracy theorist?

by naxroy Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:02 am

Walkover for Nadal.

by bogbrush Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:21 am

Are you referring to last night or his half of the draw?

by bogbrush Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:26 am

Tenez wrote:
naxroy wrote:there is no draw rigging

I have always said it was the fact people were credulous like you that we do indeed have so much corruption in this world.

Naxroy is directly responsible for corruption. Wherever there is weakness and stupidity evil takes over.

I agree with this, and there is no bigger area at the moment that demonstrates this than the structure and purpose of the EU. It staggers me how ill-informed, ignorant even, people are about how this entity operates; how it has created a monetary stranglehold on nations, changes governments at will, has no democratic accountability, yet easily deceives people into thinking otherwise.

It’s hard to understand, it requires effort and knowledge and so many people fall back into vague feelings of togetherness to defend it, and meanwhile it continues to treat public will with contempt. Weakness and stupidity indeed.

by legendkillar Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:39 am

bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
naxroy wrote:there is no draw rigging

I have always said it was the fact people were credulous like you that we do indeed have so much corruption in this world.

Naxroy is directly responsible for corruption. Wherever there is weakness and stupidity evil takes over.
I agree with this, and there is no bigger area at the moment that demonstrates this than the structure and purpose of the EU. It staggers me how ill-informed, ignorant even, people are about how this entity operates; how it has created a monetary stranglehold on nations, changes governments at will, has no democratic accountability, yet easily deceives people into thinking otherwise.

It’s hard to understand, it requires effort and knowledge and so many people fall back into vague feelings of togetherness to defend it, and meanwhile it continues to treat public will with contempt. Weakness and stupidity indeed.

Ah the "Single Market" brigade (not you) who think a monopoly is a healthy thing. I am not a fan of the EU for many of the reasons you have stated. In recent time we've seen France and Germany want something brought in and they steamroller the other nations. So it's not really a collective membership if 2 of it's members drive everything. My issue around the ignorant people (which I've seen both sides of the debate) has been: lack of understanding of what political ideology really means, the application of basic economics and what trade deals actually entail.

This whole situation has demonstrated people's inability and unwillingness to listen. It started when Cameron didn't engage business leaders and entrepreneurs about what their markets and economies would look like in the UK outside of EU Membership.

Parliament has shown how truly stupid, weak and even evil they are!

by Tenez Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:17 am

bogbrush wrote:
Tenez wrote:
naxroy wrote:there is no draw rigging

I have always said it was the fact people were credulous like you that we do indeed have so much corruption in this world.

Naxroy is directly responsible for corruption. Wherever there is weakness and stupidity evil takes over.
I agree with this, and there is no bigger area at the moment that demonstrates this than the structure and purpose of the EU. It staggers me how ill-informed, ignorant even, people are about how this entity operates; how it has created a monetary stranglehold on nations, changes governments at will, has no democratic accountability, yet easily deceives people into thinking otherwise.

It’s hard to understand, it requires effort and knowledge and so many people fall back into vague feelings of togetherness to defend it, and meanwhile it continues to treat public will with contempt. Weakness and stupidity indeed.

It is simply based on an old physical law. Nature abhors a vacuum.

Good example with Europe. Some smart people have stolen over the freedom of millions who have not made the effort to understand what Europe is all about.

by naxroy Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:21 pm

and all this, because I believe there is no draw rigging...

If I believed draws were illegally manipulated, I wouldnt be following this sport

by naxroy Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:23 pm

bogbrush wrote:Are you referring to last night or his half of the draw?

last night

by bogbrush Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:29 pm

naxroy wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Are you referring to last night or his half of the draw?

last night

by barrystar Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:34 pm

Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:
DEC1M8 wrote:https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6850893/espn-analysis-finds-top-seeds-tennis-us-open-had-easier-draw-statistically-likely

I thought this was interesting:

Can you dig down a bit or are you scared of being seen as a conspiracy theorist?

I am very happy to dig down - and to me the article makes a case which the USO has to answer. I made it clear that I would not wish to remain in their position without doing something to stop mounting suspicion. To me the balance of the evidence in that article means we have reached a point where they have got to allow an independent investigation into what is happening with their draw and be open about any investigation now and conduct the draw more publicly in future. If they don't do this they look increasingly as though they are hiding something.

I would identify several stages:

(a) allegations of rigging which are demonstrably absurd or relatively easily disposed of
(b) allegations which are sufficiently cogent to throw the onus on the USO to respond
(c) allegations which make rigging the more likely explanation absent a detailed rebuttal
(d) allegations which are proven so that it can be said that rigging is happening.

Rigging itself is an imprecise word - It could mean hand-picked draws, but that would be so time-consuming and difficult to make 'random' that it is unlikely that the entire draw is hand-picked, more likely the odd early round match is picked, or the odd individual is shuffled from one part of a draw to another where they may do less 'damage' to a favoured competitor or create a 'spectacle' match early in the tournament, it may mean that the computer programme or 'system' tends more generally to favour higher seeds (deliberately or because of cocked up assumptions).

The article shows that there are some counter-arguments of the USO, but I still think we are firmly in (b) territory, and if the USO continues to be a mathematical outlier but carries on as if there's no case to answer that shifts my inclination towards (c). I don't think that there's anything clever or brave about leaping to (d) from (b). It remains a fact that deliberate dishonest behaviour is unusual because it is time-consuming and difficult to conceal, and the more prominent the 'rigged' event and complex the rigging, the more people have to be in on it and the more likely it will be exposed.

by Tenez Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:11 pm

There is no need for the USO to respond. They have been caught up with a smoking gun.

If they are able to manipulate draws for first rounds when it doesn't really matter, imagine what they would do to force a Fedal final? this is very much why we have a 1 in 4096 (This is huge) chance for Djoko to be on Fed's draw for 4 years in a row (2008-2011)...."bizarrely" when Nadal admits in 2008 that Djoko and not Fed is his toughest opponent. And for 4 years in all slams bar the FO (guess why), Fed has the duty to get rid of Djoko...cause tournaments would very much prefer a Fedal final than a Fedovic final.

1 in 4096 is huge and though there is still a 1 in 4096 chance that it is simply luck, the draw rigging of the first rounds does not leave much room for further more serious rigging and once again, only credulous people would think it is just the hasard.

by Tenez Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:17 pm

And it is not like helping Nadal reach teh final was only pushed through rigging. Don't forget that they have made the balls bigger for men in 2010 to slow courts and added tons of sand in the paint (well documented by the USO organisers).

What is sad in all this is that even when presented with facts, people still don't want to acknowledge or imagine that corruption is everywhere. they reject teh world as it is and prefer to live in Lalaland.

by N2D2L Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:56 pm

barrystar wrote:
Tenez wrote:
barrystar wrote:
DEC1M8 wrote:https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6850893/espn-analysis-finds-top-seeds-tennis-us-open-had-easier-draw-statistically-likely

I thought this was interesting:
Can you dig down a bit or are you scared of being seen as a conspiracy theorist?

I am very happy to dig down - and to me the article makes a case which the USO has to answer. I made it clear that I would not wish to remain in their position without doing something to stop mounting suspicion. To me the balance of the evidence in that article means we have reached a point where they have got to allow an independent investigation into what is happening with their draw and be open about any investigation now and conduct the draw more publicly in future. If they don't do this they look increasingly as though they are hiding something.

I would identify several stages:

(a) allegations of rigging which are demonstrably absurd or relatively easily disposed of
(b) allegations which are sufficiently cogent to throw the onus on the USO to respond
(c) allegations which make rigging the more likely explanation absent a detailed rebuttal
(d) allegations which are proven so that it can be said that rigging is happening.

Rigging itself is an imprecise word - It could mean hand-picked draws, but that would be so time-consuming and difficult to make 'random' that it is unlikely that the entire draw is hand-picked, more likely the odd early round match is picked, or the odd individual is shuffled from one part of a draw to another where they may do less 'damage' to a favoured competitor or create a 'spectacle' match early in the tournament, it may mean that the computer programme or 'system' tends more generally to favour higher seeds (deliberately or because of cocked up assumptions).

The article shows that there are some counter-arguments of the USO, but I still think we are firmly in (b) territory, and if the USO continues to be a mathematical outlier but carries on as if there's no case to answer that shifts my inclination towards (c). I don't think that there's anything clever or brave about leaping to (d) from (b). It remains a fact that deliberate dishonest behaviour is unusual because it is time-consuming and difficult to conceal, and the more prominent the 'rigged' event and complex the rigging, the more people have to be in on it and the more likely it will be exposed.

Very good post. For me I am already in stage (c) or your analysis.
This is because USO has gone against precedent by being the only slam to not have a filmed draw ceremony, why would they do that?
Also this slam draw did seem pretty dodgy. Serena vs Sharapova Round 1. Medevedev scheduled for Djokovic right before he faces Federer? Nadal cakewalk, etc.

The best argument against draw rigging however, is this lame argument Tenez brings up of the fact they kept drawing Djoko vs Fed and Murray vs Nadal. Firstly because it was so obvious, it made people who didn't follow tennis that much really suspicious of potential draw rigging. Secondly, they probably lost viewership from it. People were getting seriously bored of that same semi-final pattern, people wanted to see Federer vs Murray in slams (early on AM had +H2H), and Djokovic vs Nadal. So why would they do something that is obviously a pattern when it loses them cash?

by Tenez Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:31 am

Do you really believe what you write Dec? It is so much nonsense and/or dishonest that there is no point argumenting.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:48 am

Tenez wrote:Do you really believe what you write Dec? It is so much nonsense and/or dishonest that there is no point argumenting.

Yes, I do believe what I say.

I just said that I think it's likely the USO rigged this draw, and that Nadal got a cakewalk. I'm not blinded by being a fan.
However just because I support a conclusion, doesn't mean I think every argument supporting that conclusion is strong. I gave my specific reasons why I think the Djo-Fed Nad-Mur pattern is so weak it actually constitutes as negative evidence. If you can rebut my point, do so.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:50 am

You also have a weird obsession with turning that SF repeated pattern into a conspiracy trying to help Nadal.
It could just as well be to help Fed. He's the world's most popular tennis player so someone you want in GS finals, and he had a negative H2H vs Murray for ages. His only slam loss before USO 2010 SF came to Dko in AO 2008 when he had mono. During the vast majority of this repeated pattern, Fed owned Djo completely.

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