Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
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Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Let's compare Nadal vs Djokovic Hamburg 2008, and Nadal vs Djokovic French Open 2013
I'll take the five 15+ shot rallies I find, and measure the time it takes from the serve to the 15th shot.
If there's such a huge difference in pace annually, let's see it with a whole 5 year margin
Links:
Hamburg 2008- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMHKG8fh_BQ
French Open 2013- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKM19zYZX24
French Open 2013:
1/ 2:15-2:34 so 19 seconds
2/ 5:06-5:26 so 20 seconds
3/ 5:59-6:17 so 18 seconds
4/ 7:03-7:21 so 18 seconds
5/ 8:18-8:35 so 17 seconds
Average- 18.4 seconds
Hamburg 2008:
1/ 0:42-1:01 so 19 seconds
2/ 2:54-3:12 so 18 seconds
3/ 8:07-8:26 so 19 seconds
4/ 9:56-10:14 so 18 seconds
5/ 14:33-14:51 so 18 seconds
Average- 18.4 seconds
All the rallies until the 15th shot were between 17 to 20 seconds, I noticed no speed difference, and you can basically see that in the stats.
So in 5 years, there has basically been no big change in pace.
I made great effort to ensure this comparison is a fair test: I chose the two same players for both matches, and made sure both the matches were on the same surface.
Everyone can check the rallies I timed with the links I provided, or even watch the whole highlights to get a feel for the match.
I hope Tenez, this puts your theory to rest, and perhaps you give it up for good...
I'll take the five 15+ shot rallies I find, and measure the time it takes from the serve to the 15th shot.
If there's such a huge difference in pace annually, let's see it with a whole 5 year margin
Links:
Hamburg 2008- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMHKG8fh_BQ
French Open 2013- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKM19zYZX24
French Open 2013:
1/ 2:15-2:34 so 19 seconds
2/ 5:06-5:26 so 20 seconds
3/ 5:59-6:17 so 18 seconds
4/ 7:03-7:21 so 18 seconds
5/ 8:18-8:35 so 17 seconds
Average- 18.4 seconds
Hamburg 2008:
1/ 0:42-1:01 so 19 seconds
2/ 2:54-3:12 so 18 seconds
3/ 8:07-8:26 so 19 seconds
4/ 9:56-10:14 so 18 seconds
5/ 14:33-14:51 so 18 seconds
Average- 18.4 seconds
All the rallies until the 15th shot were between 17 to 20 seconds, I noticed no speed difference, and you can basically see that in the stats.
So in 5 years, there has basically been no big change in pace.
I made great effort to ensure this comparison is a fair test: I chose the two same players for both matches, and made sure both the matches were on the same surface.
Everyone can check the rallies I timed with the links I provided, or even watch the whole highlights to get a feel for the match.
I hope Tenez, this puts your theory to rest, and perhaps you give it up for good...
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
And this is for Djokovic vs Murray, with a 4 year gap:
Kim Jong-Un wrote:
I'll take the first 3 15+ shot rallies I find, and measure the time it takes from the serve to the 15th shot.
Highlights I'll use:
Djokovic Murray 2011 Aus Open: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAMJ8vsvLUk
Djokovic Murray 2015 Miami:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Noudv3vM5ZQ (Set 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueHdBwolSG0 (Set 1 TB)
Miami 2015 15+ shot rallies:
1/ 0:37-0:55 so 18 seconds
2/ 4:01-4:19 so 18 seconds
3/ 0:00-0:18 so 18 seconds again... (this one is from the TB btw)
Aus Open 2011 15+ shot rallies:
1/ 0:53-1:12 so 19 seconds
2/ 1:44-2:02 so 18 seconds
3/ 3:01-3:19 so 18 seconds again...
OK so this shows that they were all basically the same pace. I've provided the links and exact timings, so you can double check all of these.
There was basically no difference at all, and even if you nit-pick at the fact one of the AO 2011 was 19 seconds, that one had a few slices which took the pace off, if not for that it probably would have been 18 seconds as well.
There just hasn't been such a big chance in the pace of play as you falsely think. Djokovic in early 2011 was playing with huge confidence, and now he's still playing well in early 2015- except a bit edgy with lapses of focus from time to time.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Tenez, on the other thread, you said you had some criticism of the data ?
I double checked the one you saw (AO 2011 from 0:53), and it was absolutely right.
I stopped counting as soon as the 15th shot is hit, if you count more than that then the analysis becomes unfair (as one rally could be 17 shots, and the other could be 30... and the 30 shot rally may slow down as players get tired after 20 shots or so).
It's fair to have a single cut-off point.
I am also aware that my Miami videos were taken down, which is annoying, I guess it's due to copyright.
Perhaps we can stick with the Nadal vs Djokovic comparison, or if you want find another highlights clip of the Miami final too.
I double checked the one you saw (AO 2011 from 0:53), and it was absolutely right.
I stopped counting as soon as the 15th shot is hit, if you count more than that then the analysis becomes unfair (as one rally could be 17 shots, and the other could be 30... and the 30 shot rally may slow down as players get tired after 20 shots or so).
It's fair to have a single cut-off point.
I am also aware that my Miami videos were taken down, which is annoying, I guess it's due to copyright.
Perhaps we can stick with the Nadal vs Djokovic comparison, or if you want find another highlights clip of the Miami final too.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
OK now let me compare two with a 7 year gap !
Tenez, reading what you said on the other thread, it seems you did not read what I said carefully at all. I stop counting at the 15th shot, for reasons explained in the above post.
I will record 3 from each
Nadal vs Djokovic 2007 compared to Nadal vs Djokovic Miami 2014
Links:
Nadal Djokovic IW/Miami 2007- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrkfBRKJZcE
Nadal Djokovic Miami 2014- https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x286t79_miami-2014-final-novak-djokovic-vs-rafael-nadal-highlights-hd_sport
Miami 2014:
1/ 0:38-0:57 so 19 seconds
2/ 1:55-2:14 so 19 seconds
3/ 5:21-5:39 so 18 seconds
2007 IW/Miami fixtures
1/ 0:08-0:27 so 19 seconds
2/ 1:58-2:17 so 19 seconds
3/ 4:23-4:41 so 18 seconds
OK, this will be the last set I do, because I have proven my point. Here we have a 7 year gap, and there is no difference in speed whatsoever.
All the ones I have used is with flat hitting, I did not use any where there was excessive slicing, drop-shots, volleys etc. as this makes the comparison unfair.
Edit: Actually checking again, the second 2014 Miami has its 15th shot at 2:14, not 2:13. This means that one is 19 seconds too, so overall NO difference at all in the 3 compared.
Tenez, reading what you said on the other thread, it seems you did not read what I said carefully at all. I stop counting at the 15th shot, for reasons explained in the above post.
I will record 3 from each
Nadal vs Djokovic 2007 compared to Nadal vs Djokovic Miami 2014
Links:
Nadal Djokovic IW/Miami 2007- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrkfBRKJZcE
Nadal Djokovic Miami 2014- https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x286t79_miami-2014-final-novak-djokovic-vs-rafael-nadal-highlights-hd_sport
Miami 2014:
1/ 0:38-0:57 so 19 seconds
2/ 1:55-2:14 so 19 seconds
3/ 5:21-5:39 so 18 seconds
2007 IW/Miami fixtures
1/ 0:08-0:27 so 19 seconds
2/ 1:58-2:17 so 19 seconds
3/ 4:23-4:41 so 18 seconds
OK, this will be the last set I do, because I have proven my point. Here we have a 7 year gap, and there is no difference in speed whatsoever.
All the ones I have used is with flat hitting, I did not use any where there was excessive slicing, drop-shots, volleys etc. as this makes the comparison unfair.
Edit: Actually checking again, the second 2014 Miami has its 15th shot at 2:14, not 2:13. This means that one is 19 seconds too, so overall NO difference at all in the 3 compared.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Kimmy,
sorry, but you have proven nothing. All that typing...one big waste of time.
As I said earlier, until you are able to see the difference in ball-striking, you don't know what you are talking about.
There is no shame in not knowing something...but it's silly to pretend to know something when you don't.
sorry, but you have proven nothing. All that typing...one big waste of time.
As I said earlier, until you are able to see the difference in ball-striking, you don't know what you are talking about.
There is no shame in not knowing something...but it's silly to pretend to know something when you don't.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
noleisthebest wrote:
There is no shame in not knowing something...but it's silly to pretend to know something when you don't.
Unfortunately not being able to defend your opinion, posting vague clichés, making absolutely nonsensical statements such as 'Djokovic 2015 would double bagel Djokovic 2011', repeating what Tenez says from time to time, and then being really arrogant about your supposed understanding of 'ball striking' does not constitute tennis knowledge NITB.
That reminds me, this was your comment on the Miami thread, comparing Miami 2015 to AO 2011:
noleisthebest wrote:You can see tennis there looks slo-motion compared to today's.
The contrast is striking.
You said the tennis was 'slo-mo', yet I've checked the speeds and there is basically no difference. So you judged something of the same speed as 'slo-mo', correct ?
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Cheat at every opportunity ?Tenez wrote:I have already discussed that with you. You are working it wrong. I said to take 15 +shots rallies cause 15is too short to make up for one or 2 sec precision loss due to the fact we are only accounting to the second. Therefore you need to account a mimimum of 15 length but account for 18, 20 will gove you more precision. And if you do that you will see that 2015 is faster than 2009 or 2010 at the AO. 2007 is the wrong year cause I agree that at the USO for instance it was pretty fast and top players then where usually shot makers (Blake, Gonzo, Nalby), hence used to play pace as opposed to lungbusting rallies.Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Btw Tenez, there is a thread where I measured some timings and showed no change in pace between 2007 and 2015 basically, perhaps you haven't seen it or maybe you ignore evidence that doesn't fit your pre-held theories.
So you have to compare what is comparable.
Don;t do like Nadal, cheat at every opportunity.
Tenez, I have used the same players in my comparisons (who you claim have improved so much in 8 years).
And I specifically went out of my way to choose court speeds of the similar speed: Hamburg 2008 clay vs French Open 2013 clay, AO 2011 vs Miami 2015; I've chosen the same surfaces.
So I have compared what is comparable, it's pathetic you say I 'cheat' when I've gone out of my way to make sure the players are the same and the courts are similar.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
As for going to more than 15 shots in a rally, I chose 15 to make sure that the number of shots in a rally were consistent for both... obviously the calculation is unfair if you are measuring a 30 shot rally on the one hand and a 18 shot on the other, as the 30 shot rally could slow down.
If you want you can choose a number greater than 15 (20?), and you still aren't going to see a difference.
If you want you can choose a number greater than 15 (20?), and you still aren't going to see a difference.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
I have no time now to work it out.Kim Jong-Un wrote:As for going to more than 15 shots in a rally, I chose 15 to make sure that the number of shots in a rally were consistent for both... obviously the calculation is unfair if you are measuring a 30 shot rally on the one hand and a 18 shot on the other, as the 30 shot rally could slow down.
If you want you can choose a number greater than 15 (20?), and you still aren't going to see a difference.
But you cannot take 15shots only as I explained that you may have as much as 2sec inaccuracy by using Youtube..which will not reflect enough precision.
Taking 18 or 20 shots is perfectly fair as you take those for both matches and divide by the number of ball crossing the net.
Nothing that difficult....do it....and if you are honest you will find th esame results I found. AO 2015 played faster than AO 2010 with the same players. More so if you do USO Djoko Murray 2014 v Djoko Murray 2012.
Be honest for once!
Tenez- Posts : 21050
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
How could I have been more honest, I laid out the methodology, and literally showed the links with the exact timings; so anyone could double check.Tenez wrote:
Be honest for once!
I also chose the same players, with similar surfaces. Your claims of dishonesty don't make any sense when I've been so transparent.
Why don't you show the evidence as I have done then ?Tenez wrote:Taking 18 or 20 shots is perfectly fair as you take those for both matches and divide by the number of ball crossing the net. Nothing that difficult....do it....and if you are honest you will find th esame results I found.
I did it for 15 shots, which is the barometer I thought you were using, if that's not enough then do it for 18 shots and show me ?
I've even provided you with the links, and the timings of the long rallies !
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
The problem you have with my evidence is not that I've not been honest/transparent enough (I clearly have); but that it makes a big hole in the conclusion of yours which you reached earlier than you kept going on about.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Stop repeating things in loop. It won;t make you more credible. I have already shown some evidence in the past.
You can't "lay out the methodology" based on what I advise, while twisting what I advise.
Discussing with you is becoming a pain.
I have already shown with links and data how AO 09 Verdy v Nadal was played slower than same players in Miami 15...are you denying that as well?
You can't "lay out the methodology" based on what I advise, while twisting what I advise.
Discussing with you is becoming a pain.
I have already shown with links and data how AO 09 Verdy v Nadal was played slower than same players in Miami 15...are you denying that as well?
Tenez- Posts : 21050
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Can you repost those statistics here, as I cannot remember them.Tenez wrote:
I have already shown with links and data how AO 09 Verdy v Nadal was played slower than same players in Miami 15...are you denying that as well?
My methodology is consistent, so I pick a equal number of shots in a rally. If you use rallies over varying amounts of shots, then that influences the result (as I guess rallies may slow down as it goes on), so it becomes an unfair comparison.You can't "lay out the methodology" based on what I advise, while twisting what I advise.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Posted during Miami....
I used the so called "amazing 2009 AO TB" LS is referring to above and compared it with yesterday's match between Nadal and Verdasco :
To work out pace I had to use the 2 long rallies we have in that TB (plus another long rally of that match in another clip to consolidate the numbers as 2 rallies are not enough. In fact the other long rally I chose was faster than in that TB) and compared it with long rallies of yesterday match.
First the first conclusion is that it is harder to find long rallies (14 shots plus) in yesterday match. The game is played faster, taking more risk and more importantly, so much faster between points. You can see Nadal taking 56s between the first 2 points of that AO09 TB. Woudl not be tolerated today!
Second taking an average of 3 rallies of 14 + shots the game yesterday was played 12 percent faster. you can check by yourself:
AO09 TB
21 30 1.428571429
14 20 1.428571429
20 28 1.4
average 1.419047619
Miami 2015
14 18 1.285714286
10 12.5 1.25
16 20 1.25
average 1.261904762
So playing faster is of course going to produce more UEs, and is simply more difficult to sustain.
Kim, it also shows that though you don;t see the game as being faster now comapred to then...it is! in effect your analog vision is biased!
I used the so called "amazing 2009 AO TB" LS is referring to above and compared it with yesterday's match between Nadal and Verdasco :
To work out pace I had to use the 2 long rallies we have in that TB (plus another long rally of that match in another clip to consolidate the numbers as 2 rallies are not enough. In fact the other long rally I chose was faster than in that TB) and compared it with long rallies of yesterday match.
First the first conclusion is that it is harder to find long rallies (14 shots plus) in yesterday match. The game is played faster, taking more risk and more importantly, so much faster between points. You can see Nadal taking 56s between the first 2 points of that AO09 TB. Woudl not be tolerated today!
Second taking an average of 3 rallies of 14 + shots the game yesterday was played 12 percent faster. you can check by yourself:
AO09 TB
21 30 1.428571429
14 20 1.428571429
20 28 1.4
average 1.419047619
Miami 2015
14 18 1.285714286
10 12.5 1.25
16 20 1.25
average 1.261904762
So playing faster is of course going to produce more UEs, and is simply more difficult to sustain.
Kim, it also shows that though you don;t see the game as being faster now comapred to then...it is! in effect your analog vision is biased!
Tenez- Posts : 21050
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Wait Tenez, can you give links and timings as you have done ?
Last edited by Kim Jong-Un on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Don't misquote me. I said it was the best tiebreak i've ever seen in terms of a player hitting so many winners and against Nadal of all people.Tenez wrote:Posted during Miami....
I used the so called "amazing 2009 AO TB" LS is referring to above and compared it with yesterday's match between Nadal and Verdasco :
To work out pace I had to use the 2 long rallies we have in that TB (plus another long rally of that match in another clip to consolidate the numbers as 2 rallies are not enough. In fact the other long rally I chose was faster than in that TB) and compared it with long rallies of yesterday match.
First the first conclusion is that it is harder to find long rallies (14 shots plus) in yesterday match. The game is played faster, taking more risk and more importantly, so much faster between points. You can see Nadal taking 56s between the first 2 points of that AO09 TB. Woudl not be tolerated today!
Second taking an average of 3 rallies of 14 + shots the game yesterday was played 12 percent faster. you can check by yourself:
AO09 TB
21 30 1.428571429
14 20 1.428571429
20 28 1.4
average 1.419047619
Miami 2015
14 18 1.285714286
10 12.5 1.25
16 20 1.25
average 1.261904762
So playing faster is of course going to produce more UEs, and is simply more difficult to sustain.
Kim, it also shows that though you don;t see the game as being faster now comapred to then...it is! in effect your analog vision is biased!
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVrnOFXof7A
That is what I used for Miami I believe...the problem is that there weren't any long rallies (longest was 16 shots ..most likely due to less time allowed between points so players have to hit the ball harder.
That is what I used for Miami I believe...the problem is that there weren't any long rallies (longest was 16 shots ..most likely due to less time allowed between points so players have to hit the ball harder.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Can you give timings ?
Also link for AO TB, are your 3 points for those in order ?
Also link for AO TB, are your 3 points for those in order ?
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Kim Jong-Un wrote:Can you give timings ?
Also link for AO TB, are your 3 points for those in order ?
Don't have time....but it shoudl be easy to work it out.
AO09 TB
21 30 1.428571429 means 21 lengths in 30sec.
14 20 1.428571429
20 28 1.4
average 1.419047619
Miami 2015
14 18 1.285714286 this one starts at 39s and ends at 57 when the ball crosses the baseline before Nadal send the ball back. (I don't count the last (15th shot) as the ball doesn't crosses the whole court. So it is 14 lengths in 18sec.
10 12.5 1.25
16 20 1.25
average 1.261904762
Tenez- Posts : 21050
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
And what's the difference?luvsports! wrote:
Don't misquote me. I said it was the best tiebreak i've ever seen in terms of a player hitting so many winners and against Nadal of all people.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
I need the timings Tenez
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Kim Jong-Un wrote:I need the timings Tenez
pick yours....we should get to the same results.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Tenez wrote:And what's the difference?luvsports! wrote:
Don't misquote me. I said it was the best tiebreak i've ever seen in terms of a player hitting so many winners and against Nadal of all people.
Best tiebreak has to be great from both players, but in this one verdasco just obliterated Rafa. A great one would be say feds vs rafa 2008 wimby set 4.
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
AO 2009 TB:
1/ 21 lengths for 30 seconds- however I must note that at the end there was quite a slow very angled shot for Verdasco, and then Nadal lobbed it up very slow back into play. It's unfair to count the last 3 shots, as anyone watching can see it's no longer normal rallying. (In the examples I used, I was very careful not to use any rallies where something strange like that happened)
If we don't count the weird last few points: 17 shots for 23 seconds- 1.35 average
2/ I'm sorry, using this rally is a joke. Nadal slices it 3 times even before the 15th shot, and one of them was one of his floaty slow slices.
If I had wanted to, I could have shown 2015 was slower than 2007 or vice versa by picking rallies where there was slicing; but I made sure I didn't.
Slicing always slow down play- careless example to use.
3/ I have no idea which one you chose for this
Miami 2014:
1/ Yep, your calculations are fine here
2/ No, you've made a mistake here in your calculations.
For 10 lengths, it does from 3:08-3:23
That is 15 seconds, not 12.5 seconds as you said. So the average here is 1.5.
3/ This point does not even appear in the highlights you gave. It seems to be the right highlights, because the timings for your first one were correct, but there is no third one of 16 lengths ?
1/ 21 lengths for 30 seconds- however I must note that at the end there was quite a slow very angled shot for Verdasco, and then Nadal lobbed it up very slow back into play. It's unfair to count the last 3 shots, as anyone watching can see it's no longer normal rallying. (In the examples I used, I was very careful not to use any rallies where something strange like that happened)
If we don't count the weird last few points: 17 shots for 23 seconds- 1.35 average
2/ I'm sorry, using this rally is a joke. Nadal slices it 3 times even before the 15th shot, and one of them was one of his floaty slow slices.
If I had wanted to, I could have shown 2015 was slower than 2007 or vice versa by picking rallies where there was slicing; but I made sure I didn't.
Slicing always slow down play- careless example to use.
3/ I have no idea which one you chose for this
Miami 2014:
1/ Yep, your calculations are fine here
2/ No, you've made a mistake here in your calculations.
For 10 lengths, it does from 3:08-3:23
That is 15 seconds, not 12.5 seconds as you said. So the average here is 1.5.
3/ This point does not even appear in the highlights you gave. It seems to be the right highlights, because the timings for your first one were correct, but there is no third one of 16 lengths ?
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
luvsports! wrote:Tenez wrote:And what's the difference?luvsports! wrote:
Don't misquote me. I said it was the best tiebreak i've ever seen in terms of a player hitting so many winners and against Nadal of all people.
Best tiebreak has to be great from both players, but in this one verdasco just obliterated Rafa. A great one would be say feds vs rafa 2008 wimby set 4.
Nole-Dolgo USO 2011 was pretty good .
I know it wasn't Fedal....
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
That was a goody. It was just that one came to mind because that is the most emotionally invested I think I have ever been in for one.
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
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Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
You are funny.....Kim Jong-Un wrote:AO 2009 TB:
1/ 21 lengths for 30 seconds- however I must note that at the end there was quite a slow very angled shot for Verdasco, and then Nadal lobbed it up very slow back into play. It's unfair to count the last 3 shots, as anyone watching can see it's no longer normal rallying. (In the examples I used, I was very careful not to use any rallies where something strange like that happened)
If we don't count the weird last few points: 17 shots for 23 seconds- 1.35 average
You are even funnier!2/ I'm sorry, using this rally is a joke. Nadal slices it 3 times even before the 15th shot, and one of them was one of his floaty slow slices.
If I had wanted to, I could have shown 2015 was slower than 2007 or vice versa by picking rallies where there was slicing; but I made sure I didn't.
Slicing always slow down play- careless example to use.
Remember i did not choose the rallies. I was told that Verdy played amazing in AO09 and I just hilighted how the game was simply different there, with simply a 12% slower tempo...and an even more ridiculous dead slower tempo between points! Nowadays points are played more agressively with less time between points. You don;t have as nearly sliced BH from Nadal. He himself is much more aggressive from that side. he has no choice in fact if he doesn;t want to do too much rallying.
As a fan you should have noticed. but you only notice the fact he loses more often nowadays and blame his decline. You are not serious.
Miami 2014:
1.5s per rally...once again you are not serious. My other points were calculated exactly as my first one and that are the results I found out. Find your own,,,1/ Yep, your calculations are fine here
2/ No, you've made a mistake here in your calculations.
For 10 lengths, it does from 3:08-3:23
That is 15 seconds, not 12.5 seconds as you said. So the average here is 1.5.
3/ This point does not even appear in the highlights you gave. It seems to be the right highlights, because the timings for your first one were correct, but there is no third one of 16 lengths ?
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ailpiAzXqM&spfreload=10
That's the clip I actually used for Miami.
the second point starts at 2.01 and ends at 2.13.I coudl have done 13-1=12sec....but am honest so added an extra half sec for accuracy.
You will find the third point somewhere.
But that the fact is that Miami was played faster....and all my other calculation are simply correct.
That's the clip I actually used for Miami.
the second point starts at 2.01 and ends at 2.13.I coudl have done 13-1=12sec....but am honest so added an extra half sec for accuracy.
You will find the third point somewhere.
But that the fact is that Miami was played faster....and all my other calculation are simply correct.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
I am genuinely amazed that people can't see the huge difference in tennis between 2009 and 2015, and Nadal-Verdasco matches are a perfect illustration in every way.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
I'm not sure if they have but even if it is a lot faster, that doesn't mean comparatively it was a lot better quality.
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
Join date : 2012-09-28
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
I think you are mixing drama with quality.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
So if they hit the ball harder, that makes it better?
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
Join date : 2012-09-28
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
For similar type of players it does.luvsports! wrote:So if they hit the ball harder, that makes it better?
If you look at tennis show done by the senior tour, they make things more impressively than what we see on the main tour. The difference is that they have all the time in the world to keep the ball in court.
Pace is everything in tennis. You can slow down the pace of the rallies (like Nadal and Djoko did it in 2010 as compared to Fed v Blake for instance) but then you have to compensate with longer rallies and more importantly, faster footwork.
If Nadal had played as slow as 2009, Verdasco woudl have been able to hit harder and more precisely.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
It's just when I see a match where over 150 winners are hit in 5 sets compared to less than 50 in 3 - you can see why I am inclined to think that it's not better, despite the fact it may be faster now.
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
Join date : 2012-09-28
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Sure but Nadal's slice really helped Verdy pull all those winners in 2009. This is what I noticed in 2010 and more so in 2013 how Nadal improved his BH considerably by cutting his slices and being more aggressive on that side.
Tenez- Posts : 21050
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
luvsports! wrote:So if they hit the ball harder, that makes it better?
What's easier to do: hit the ball as hard as you can and not miss or with half the energy?
And then consider the amount of energy now spent on one point, one game...
I watched a game of Zverev yesterday, he was a set up and 2:2 in the second.
Then there was a long point in which he tried to run down every ball, he was better than NoleNadal and Murray put together, it was quite incredible...
He lost that point. He lost that set and got bagelled in the third.
Best thing to do is to try it out yourself, you'll see it straight away.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
I personally haven't noticed that Nadal is slicing less, from time to time Nadal still does slice it slow and deep to frustrate his opponent.Tenez wrote:You don;t have as nearly sliced BH from Nadal. He himself is much more aggressive from that side. he has no choice in fact if he doesn;t want to do too much rallying.
I do think there's a distinction though when measuring the pace of these rallies between the pace of normal rallies going up (i.e. they're hitting the ball faster), and the decision of whether to slice or not.
As I said Nadal when he feels like it still does do his slow slices, and they can be quite effective and frustrating the opponent, I don't think that's changed over the last 7 years.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Nadal's backhand now is a lot worse than it was in 2010-2013, in my opinion.Tenez wrote:This is what I noticed in 2010 and more so in 2013 how Nadal improved his BH considerably by cutting his slices and being more aggressive on that side.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
On this count, Tenez is right I think.luvsports! wrote:I'm not sure if they have but even if it is a lot faster, that doesn't mean comparatively it was a lot better quality.
IF (and it is a big if) tennis has sped up; then what Tenez's saying makes a lot more sense.
You don't even have to phrase it as 'quality' if you don't want to- but if Nadal in 2007 is used to playing the game at 50mph, but then in 2014 can play the game at 80mph- his 2007 game would not have coped at all in 2014.
Tenez's problem is the data simply doesn't show it. We have lots of data on this thread, and there's no clear trend either way.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Kim Jong-Un wrote:Nadal's backhand now is a lot worse than it was in 2010-2013, in my opinion.Tenez wrote:This is what I noticed in 2010 and more so in 2013 how Nadal improved his BH considerably by cutting his slices and being more aggressive on that side.
And what do you mean by "worse"?
Why don't you for once in your life stop and consider the opposition.
Why does suddenly Nadal's BH look "worse" although it's technically faster and better.
Consider Nadal's new racquet...more spin less control...what does it tell you about him as a player?
He is slow and does not have talent to take the ball early.
So when the ball is coming to him faster he has less time now to deal with it, is pressured and misses more.
His only other solutuion has always been to hit the ball harder and safer...can't you see how limited he is?
Tennis is not a game against the wall.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
From what I can observe, he doesn't hit it faster, he doesn't create as many angles as he used to, he doesn't get the same depth he used to, and it is more prone to errors than it used to be.noleisthebest wrote:Kim Jong-Un wrote:Nadal's backhand now is a lot worse than it was in 2010-2013, in my opinion.Tenez wrote:This is what I noticed in 2010 and more so in 2013 how Nadal improved his BH considerably by cutting his slices and being more aggressive on that side.
And what do you mean by "worse"?
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
He is hitting it faster.
The reason it's shorter (if it is shorter, I haven't watched much of him lately) it's because he is losing confidence and playing as safely as possible.
When a fast deep ball comes to him which is now considerably faster and harder to deal with - he simply has less time.
Nadal's tennis is all about needing time to hit the ball...that's why he stands so far back.
The reason it's shorter (if it is shorter, I haven't watched much of him lately) it's because he is losing confidence and playing as safely as possible.
When a fast deep ball comes to him which is now considerably faster and harder to deal with - he simply has less time.
Nadal's tennis is all about needing time to hit the ball...that's why he stands so far back.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Well is it faster ?noleisthebest wrote:
When a fast deep ball comes to him which is now considerably faster and harder to deal with - he simply has less time.
Just look at the plethora of data on this thread, there is absolutely nothing to suggest the play has got faster.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
What do you mean I'm not serious ?Tenez wrote:1.5s per rally...once again you are not serious.
2/ No, you've made a mistake here in your calculations.
For 10 lengths, it does from 3:08-3:23
That is 15 seconds, not 12.5 seconds as you said. So the average here is 1.5.
Check from your earlier link, between 3:08-3:23... it is very clearly 15 seconds for those 10 lengths.
Just because it's not one you found, or it doesn't fit your pre-held view, doesn't mean it doesn't count.
N2D2L- Posts : 5813
Join date : 2013-05-03
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
Kim,Kim Jong-Un wrote:Well is it faster ?noleisthebest wrote:
When a fast deep ball comes to him which is now considerably faster and harder to deal with - he simply has less time.
Just look at the plethora of data on this thread, there is absolutely nothing to suggest the play has got faster.
seriously, myself and especially Tenez have done our utmost best to show the ball is hit consoderably faster now...that's the way tennis has been evolving in the last few years.
Nadal took it to physical level, making rallies longer.
Then the opposition worked the way to beat that style is to simply hit the ball harder (automatically faster), it takes a lot of practice and hard work to improve ball-striking that way, esp under match-playing pressure circumstances.
It also required the tour catching up with fitness as it is very exhausting to hit the ball hard for a long time...and not just hit it hard but have fast legs and great anticipation to get to the same fast hard hit ball your opponent sends you back.
To is it's easy to see with bare eyes, to you it seems difficult.
Those two clips of Nadal-Verdasco matches from AO and Miami are brilliant examples.
noleisthebest- Posts : 27907
Join date : 2012-06-18
Re: Time to put this theory to bed... Djokovic vs Nadal speed comparison
You are misconstruing my point Kim.
For example the 2005 wtf final between nalby and feds. Some of the shotmaking was outrageous. Just because the game may be faster today, doesn't make it better or possess more "quality".
For example the 2005 wtf final between nalby and feds. Some of the shotmaking was outrageous. Just because the game may be faster today, doesn't make it better or possess more "quality".
luvsports!- Posts : 4718
Join date : 2012-09-28
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