Andy Murray is it the end of his career at the top?

I would not mind him doing better and be a threat while Djoko and Nadal are around. He is one who can run them close and his feared by the other top 4 (well what used to be the top 4) making a impact on the draws, unlike Ferrer or Stan.

However I think I should put the above sentence in the past tense. He clearly has not recovered from his back injury and I believe since he never was a natural mover, will never recover from it. I think his smile on the court is more of a bitter, ironic or maybe even a careless smile.

It is clear he will drop out of the top 10 after Wimbledon and I don't think he will have the fitness to reenter it, especially if the youngsters start to make a move (and they slowly do).

he has had a back back since the beginning of his career, a bit like Federer in a way but Federer never forced his frame, he worked very hard but never changed his shape, never became hugely muscular, and more importantly never had to carry a 6'3" body from all corners of the courts, he was the one making Murray run most of the time.

he is going to finish with the same amount of slams as Hewitt (a great achievement) without the number 1 spot however....but like Hewitt I can easily see him glide down the ranking slowly but surely.

I noticed your  astute observation the other day and I'm glad you elaborated on it.
It made me think as I, too noticed Murray has been odd all this season, but couldn't put my finger on it.
Yes, he has abused his unathletic body a lot, but that was the risk he took when he embarked on transforming it.

Media have pushed and hyped him into "the big 4" for years, well before he won his first slam.

Of the 4,  he never belonged there athletically. He can't even walk properly, it's just this laborious lumbering further helped/enhanced by his natural melanholic disposition.
Federer, Nadal (despite all the bicep alteration) and Djokovic are all natural, superb athletes.

He knew it all the time, but being so close and yet so far, must have stirred a lot of frustration we have witnessed him verbally vent out so regularly.

I'll never forget his match against Federer in the last TMC that was held in Shanghai, 2008 before  it was moved to London.

He busted his guts to beat injured Federer in that match and didn't need the win at all. That was the only time I saw Federer take an MTO, he had his back massaged.
At that particular time in his career, Murray had beaten him a few times and was foolish enough to think that like his idol Nadal he could get into his head by beating him regularly.
As a result, he was drained and demolished by Davydenko in the SF, whom Nole beat with ease in the final, crowning his 2008, the year he started so well by winning his first slam in AO with his first TMC.

Murray is a slow learner, but I think definitely learnt his lesson a few months later when Fed beat him in AO final 2009, leaving him sobbing during the trophy presentation and utter the famous line: I can cry like Roger, I wish I could play like him.

The saving of him came with hiring Lendl, without whom I am positive, he would have not won any slams.
I don't think he ever had the belief, and the lucky breaks he had in wining both of them probably never cemented any of the potentially new-found confidence, which you would logically conclud had to be the natural consequence.

So, as a result, with Lendl leaving, I think he is struggling to push his body any more as he simply has nothing to drive it from the inside.

Lendl must have seen the writing on the wall and left smartly.

I like your take on the bitter smiling!

noleisthebest wrote:....
Yes, he has abused his unathletic body a lot, but that was the risk he took when he embarked on transforming it.

Frankly I do not think he had any other choice. Without this amazing fitness he would have been a top 40...at best.

Media have pushed and hyped him into "the big 4" for years, well before he won his first slam. Of the 4,  he never belonged there athletically. He can't even walk properly, it's just this laborious lumbering further helped/enhanced by his natural sanguine disposition.

welll yes....cause not many had beaten Nadal over 5 sets....he was one of the very few who could do it...so to me it is not that hyped.

Federer, Nadal (despite all the bicep alteration) and Djokovic are all natural, superb athletes.

He has an eye and feel for the ball. A great sense of anticipation, good volleys. Problem he has v Djoko and Nadal is that he is certainly not as naturally mobile and on those slow courts he paid the price....but in terms of talent he is probably better than those 2, certainly better than Nadal imo and arguable v Djoko. However he lacks guts...which is why he chose to run rather than to attack.

I'll never forget his match against Federer in the last TMC that was held in Shanghai, 2008 before  it was moved to London.

He busted his guts to beat injured Federer in that match and didn't need the win at all. That was the only time I saw Federer take an MTO, he had his back massaged.
At that particular time in his career, Murray had beaten him a few times and was foolish enough to think that like his idol Nadal he could get into his head by beating him regularly.
As a result, he was drained and demolished by Davydenko in the SF, whom Nole beat with ease in the final, crowning his 2008, the year he started so well by winning his first slam in AO with his first TMC.

Yes, I remember.

I like your take on the bitter smiling!

I don't know but I do not see a genuine refreshing smile.

I have seen less talented players play with "learnt" belief (read: confidence) and win, but am yet to see someone with talent have no belief.
Especially in professional tennis.

I don't count Murray's win over Nadal in AO as beating him in the best of 5. Nadal retired in the third set.
That was the best I saw Murray play, though.

In any case, Murray's 2014 edition supports your theory that fitness breeds confidence - very well.

Murray knows his body best, and it's not a surprise he can't get himself going - all resulting in this weird, half-baked efforts.
I am surprised no journalists have asked him about all this sudden smiling.

noleisthebest wrote:I have seen less talented players play with "learnt" belief (read: confidence) and win, but am yet to see someone with talent have no belief.
Especially in professional tennis.

Gasquet, Coria, Goran, Medvedev, Mecir, Rios, the list is very longue. In fact it is difficult to have talent and belief cause talent is a subtle and fragile quality difficult to produce in pressure times. I don't think Murray's talent is huge but in terms of shot making he is as good if not better than the other 2.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:I have seen less talented players play with "learnt" belief (read: confidence) and win, but am yet to see someone with talent have no belief.
Especially in professional tennis.

Gasquet, Coria, Goran, Medvedev, Mecir, Rios, the list is very longue. In fact it is difficult to have talent and belief cause talent is a subtle and fragile quality difficult to produce in pressure times. I don't think Murray's talent is huge but in terms of shot making he is as good if not better than the other 2.

That is a very good point.
Still, look at Federer. He oozes belief, despite looking fragile from time to time and knowing what's behind it.

With Gasquet, for example, he is talented, but clearly has a flaw in his game: FH.
Being aware of that can't quite inspire him to attack which is why he prefers to use his BH and then often gets pushed back in these slow conditions.

I also think there is a cultural element to it. Societies with dominant/domineering mothers surely don't help their sons' confidence.
The effects of the effeminization of society are becoming quite obvious in the West.

Yes Federer is the exception of the sport....I'd say all sports almost. The way he can remain calm in all cicumstances....but the main reason is he has so much talent....it's kind of playing in a different league.

The thing I find so amazing with Federer's disposition is the way he bottles his emotions and doesn't let them interfere with his focus.

He wasn't always like that, but clearly a good and quick learner.

All that winning and realisation of the scope of his talent took time in the beginning, while he put it to the test on tour.

I remember he once said: I knew I was good but not that I was going to be this good!
So his confidence and belief came from his talent which is an unwavering, reliable constant.
Watching him play, you'd think he's as cool as ice, but we know he is not.

Those without talent, or with less talent are prone to confidence swings.

For Nadal, confidence lasts while his bicep is able to outlast, for Gasquet it's whether his amount of talent is bigger than his opponent's, provided the opponent is not a road-runner.

I think he was quite good mentally since 2003. His USO finals v Agassi with a huge crowd against him and Agassi playing better and better was extremely impressing.

And having watching him play live, it's actually this coolness that transpires. Playing shots completely relaxed whether he is at SP against of SP for.

Just to be able to play that risky game in this current era shows amazing confidence.

Tenez wrote:I think he was quite good mentally since 2003. His USO finals v Agassi with a huge crowd against him and Agassi playing better and better was extremely impressing.

And having watching him play live, it's actually this coolness that transpires. Playing shots completely relaxed whether he is at SP against of SP for.

Just to be able to play that risky game in this current era shows amazing confidence.

Yes, the sheer awareness of what he is capable of doing esp compared to all his opponents must be a great feeling and source of that inner peace during play.
The thrill of knowing he is better than everyone, in the game of tennis which is so demanding and tough on all possible levels...hats off to him for executing it all these years with such ease and grace.
Many are still taking it for granted.

It must be like a drug to him, creating points and flowing the instinct out of himself into the contact with the ball.
Shame the conditions have slowed that beautiful creation almost to a halt these days.

I can't think of any other athlete in history that had it all like him. No other sport tests and asks so much of you like tennis. Nowhere near.

Back to Murray...is he going to turn into Tim from now on?

Watching Berd today play tired, burnt-out dead tennis, reminded me of Murray and Nadal this year.
Is it a coincidence?

noleisthebest wrote:Back to Murray...is he going to turn into Tim from now on?

What do you mean? Tim was a good player.

Watching Berd today play tired, burnt-out dead tennis, reminded me of Murray and Nadal this year.
Is it a coincidence?

Again, me no comprendo.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Back to Murray...is he going to turn into Tim from now on?

What do you mean? Tim was a good player.  

Yes, but never won anything, just kept tennis interest in England alive for two weeks of the year.
I liked him and his Don Quixotic spirit. Was quite old school.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:
Watching Berd today play tired, burnt-out dead tennis, rteminded me of Murray and Nadal this year.
Is it a coincidence?

Again, me no comprendo.

Well, all three look a bit tired from the game this year and quite beatable.
Nadal wants to play but has run out of ideas, Murray does not want to play and is struggling to motivate himself, Berd is just sick of running into brickwalls of QFs. I think they all looked much more competitive last year.
All other players seem to be moving on, they look stagnant.

Having said all this about Murray, after Fed, he is the most difficult opponent for Nole still.

Well it seemed at first that they are all tired and out of form (Tsonga, Berdych, Ferrer, Murray, Delpo, Federer, Djoko and Nadal)...but again it seems the one able to be born again from his ashes is ...Nadal!

Stop him! Someone!

I knooooow!!!!
I couldn't believe it today...I'm still kidding myself it's just because Berd was so clueless.
I reckon Nishi could do some damage...but Ferrer will drain the life out of him first, that's the problem.
Amd of course, The Son of Madrid is going to play the first SF....

I think Ferrer and Nole are still alive.

Nole is hurting and Ferrer is getting old. However watching a bit of the first set today v Gulbis, he looked more in controls.....and Ferrer does not scrap...he dictates with his loopy game. I quite like him. He has not much power but he makes up for accurate placement...and still pacy enough.

Actually, apparently Nole is fine and almost definitely playing Rome...
He can't be 100%, and even if he is pain-free, all you need is one match to set it  off again. We'll see. He gave this interview to Serbian media and even talked about returning to number one, so it can't be all that bad.

As for Ferrer, he is one of those players that keeps growing on you.
You are very right - he doesn't scramble and that's a big thing.

He may not be a shot magic box, but what he does - he does really well. He is a master of percentage CC shots!
And he can run...and run...and run...

Today, he dissipated Gulbis's fastest and hardest hit FHs with ease, similar to Murray, that must have blew Earnie's mind a bit, and definitely sucked the life out of him.
So, you can't blame him...you just have to be patient and earn your point.
He's got his quirks which went on my nerves for a long tome: carries the towel to changeovers in his teeth, grunts like a donkey during points, jumps when receiving in order to disturb the server, but once you get into it week in week out, it all kind of becomes him, his unique stamp and it's almost endearing.

Although annoying, he's been an admirable gatekeeper to the top 4 for a long time, he never beat those above him much, but rarely lost to those below him.
I'm glad he won his one 1000 masters in Paris.

I think Murray has realized that he has "timed-out" - he will never overcome the Big Three and he increasingly loses to lower ranked players.  He will never reach #1, and he has to ask what is his goal?  He got his Wimbledon, and he has had a good Masters run.  He's at an age where he has to work harder than ever to achieve results, so why go there?  Does he want to remain a mama's boy like Nadal or make an adult life?

noleisthebest wrote:he's been an admirable gatekeeper to the top 4 for a long time, he never beat those above him much, but rarely lost to those below him.

Hehe very true. It also shows yet again that there is a pretty big gap between top 4 and the rest that someone like Ferrer can fit so neatly in between - always beating those below and always losing to those above. Or at least it seemed for a couple of years like he was doing that.

noleisthebest wrote:when Fed beat him in AO final 2009, leaving him sobbing during the trophy presentation and utter the famous line: I can cry like Roger, I wish I could play like him.

I thought that was Wimbledon 2012?

On the topic of Andy. We need to give him more time. He played HC season right after returning from injury, and clay has never been his surface. Yes, he is likely to drop further down over the next couple of months but he has little to defend at the back end of the season.

For me there are two questions. First, his motivation - will he be willing to push himself now that he won Wimbledon.

Second, his age. In spite of tennis aging in general, I am still not convinced that Andy, Nole and Rafa are not entering the age where they will start losing a little bit of their edge.

The main question is not so much his motivation...I am sure he has plenty of that....nor his age...but his injury. He said after his op that he regretted the way it was done. Not the exact terms but something like that. This in my view is what going to stop him.

Regarding Nadal and Djoko I think it is very different. They are still going to improve, if they stay injury free, but the question of how the younger generation is going to improve too. They have in theory more potential, being trained younger against that kind of tennis, they should have more time to find the key to that physical game than Federer who was exposed to it in the middle of his domination.

Like all champions in the past, it's the younger player that will push the older players out of the peak and shorten this domination. It's just been harder for the current young generation because the game has become too physical and because little improvement has been made on the technical side.

Tenez wrote:
Like all champions in the past, it's the younger player that will push the older players out of the peak and shorten this domination. It's just been harder for the current young generation because the game has become too physical and because little improvement has been made on the technical side.

To me, this is a very interesting topic, because in some way it's unchartered territory.
Tennis has been evolving relatively seamlessly all the time, we have always had talented teenagers able to make a breakthrough with Nole the last one to win a Masters 1000 event in Miami at the age of 19, as well as his first slam.
But then look how long it took him to win the next one.

Nadal and his artificial illegal fitness plus slowing down of conditions created a brick wall for all young players. Look at them now: Dimitrov, Nishikori, even Raonic are all 22 and are still nowhere near winning anything bigger than a 500 event, and even that is a feat.
It shouldn't be like that.
French school of tennis which has always looked after talent is now producing very tall DBH-ers such as Herbert, De Schepper, Paire...because power seems the new way to blast off physical tennis.

Problem with that is they all suffer unnecessary early injuries pushing their young bodies beyond their limit, further delaying any progress.
Not to mention the loss tennis as a game has suffered in the form of light-footednes and aggressive, early ball taking which is not the physical attribute of any tall players.

Muscle, talent, talented muscle, which balance of the two,,,it's all getting terribly mixed up now for young players...
Maybe we just need to wait for another genius.

summerblues wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:when Fed beat him in AO final 2009, leaving him sobbing during the trophy presentation and utter the famous line: I can cry like Roger, I wish I could play like him.

I thought that was Wimbledon 2012?

No, it was definitely in Australia.
The one in Wimbledon was very moving though. According to a woman from my club (English), that was the only time the whole country liked him...even I wrote a piece on him...  

http://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/133556

Well summed up NITB.

Even Thiem had to retire after his Stan match this week. It is bizarre cause in football they would never ask a team to line up 4 or 5 matches in a row.

It all looked fine in the 70s and even 80s....but now it's absurd. The good thing is that it should favour the talented players when comes end of week....in theory.

Thanks T.
I somehow think that when Nadal retires it will all go back to normal.

noleisthebest wrote:No, it was definitely in Australia.
The one in Wimbledon was very moving though. According to a woman from my club (English), that was the only time the whole country liked him...even I wrote a piece on him... 

I see, I got his emotional moments mixed up.

Tenez wrote:He said after his op that he regretted the way it was done. Not the exact terms but something like that.

Is that so? I did not realize that. If true, then that is worrisome.

I can't find it anymore or it 's not as clear but he said also this below after his AO defeat.

"I've come a long way in four months," the Scot said. "Obviously right now I'm very disappointed.
"There's a few things I would have liked to have done differently if I was ever to have surgery again, possibly.

"But it's the first time I have ever gone through something like that. I thought I did a good job getting myself in good shape to be competitive at this level.

Murray played well today...though Nadal makes everybody play well in that kind of form. But once again his body did not last the distance. He clearly started to cramp in the middle of the 3rd set.

I thought it was a back problem but it seems to be cramping, too much lactic acid in his muscles down to trying to hard! This is what gave Nadal hope and a second breath!

Murray needs to sort this out...but I am not sure how!

The match last night surely tested Murray's back and any physical issues he may have had question marks over.
He must have felt very confident in his fitness to engage in a full physicall battle with last night's version of Nadal for two sets, but he ran into his own wall mid third set as he had nothing left.
He obviously overestimated how fit he was to start with, despite actually being fitter than ever!

So this match will have probably given Murray confidence to some degree.
On the other hand, he knows he can't push his body into more fitness after back surgery.
Only Nadal seems to have no limits in that department....

I remember somewhere in the middle of the third set he clutched his back....but I never made anything of it as he used to do it with his legs all the time before....and then he SMILED!
So he must still have some issue.

noleisthebest wrote:....I remember somewhere in the middle of the third set he clutched his back....but I never made anything of it as he used to do it with his legs all the time before....and then he SMILED!
So he must still have some issue.

It still resulted in an op so there was maybe more than acting.

It's difficult to know what is the back what is just cramping....but he seems his thighs seem to cramp a lot. Any match beyond 2 sets means an automatic leg or back pain with Murray.

We cannot read too much on his performance yesterday, Simon did as well and Youzhny took nadal to a 3 set too. Nadal can force a lot of UEs....but if the zip in his shots is not 110% then he can make many players look great!

Looks like you were right...Murray sacks both his hitting partner and fitness coach:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/andymurray/11255940/Andy-Murray-sacks-coach-Dani-Vallverdu-and-fitness-mentor-Jez-Green-in-victory-for-Amelie-Mauresmo.html

....but strangely Mauresmo survives the cull!

Oh yes...and he gets engaged, too!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30220015

With Nadal being held by selotape (read stem-cell treatment), Fed struggling maintaining his back and Murray obviously toast 2015 looks very interesting...
Who is going to make the most of these circumstances?

Stan, Nishi?

noleisthebest wrote:With Nadal being held by selotape (read stem-cell treatment), Fed struggling maintaining his back and Murray obviously toast 2015 looks very interesting...
Who is going to make the most of these circumstances?

Stan, Nishi?

Who are you kidding? You know too well your Djoko is going to make the most of it.

I am certainly hoping someone will step up and stop him winning everything. I wish they'd speed conds up.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:With Nadal being held by selotape (read stem-cell treatment), Fed struggling maintaining his back and Murray obviously toast 2015 looks very interesting...
Who is going to make the most of these circumstances?
Stan, Nishi?

Who are you kidding? You know too well your Djoko is going to make the most of it.
I am certainly hoping someone will step up and stop him winning everything. I wish they'd speed conds up.

That's understood.
Stan & Nishi were the ones I consider capable of beating him.
Not saying they will, though.
Nishi lacks perseverance and tenacity. But when he gets going, he is brilliant!
After seeing him in O2 against Nole, I think he's got enough game to win a slam in these conditions.

I think Nole, Nishi, Cilic, and Fed will share the slams next year.
Not sure about Cilic though, I see Djokovic winning 2 and Cilic not winning any; but on his day Cilic can beat anyone.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:I think Nole, Nishi, Cilic, and Fed will share the slams next year.
Not sure about Cilic though, I see Djokovic winning 2 and Cilic not winning any; but on his day Cilic can beat anyone.

You don't think Nadal will win a slam in 2015? I disagree.

But on topic with this thread, I don't think Andy Murray is likely done either. I think he is too good vs most of the current field to fade into obscurity just yet.