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Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

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Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:16 pm

If you google Daniel Koellerer's  name, all you will find English-speaking media about Koellerer will be this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=6610893


LONDON -- Austria's Daniel Koellerer became the first tennis player on Tuesday to be banned for life for attempting to fix matches.
Koellerer, a former Davis Cup player who once reached No. 55 in the world rankings, was found guilty of three violations of the sport's anti-corruption rules, including "contriving or attempting to contrive the outcome of an event."
The violations occurred between October 2009 and July 2010.
The Tennis Integrity Unit, an anti-corruption group, launched an investigation on behalf of the International Tennis Federation and the ATP and WTA tours. It would not specify which matches Koellerer was found to have manipulated.
Koellerer, who also was fined $100,000, denied the charges and is considering whether to appeal.
"This is a giant shock ... I have been charged with approaching other players to fix matches," he told Austrian radio station ORF Oe3. "I have been accused of asking other players to lose their match. That's total nonsense."

However, media in other countries report his full statement in which he openly accused Nadal (and Ferrer) of doping:


http://www.gazetaesportiva.net/noticia/2013/09/mais-esportes/banido-extenista-austriaco-insinua-doping-de-nadal.html
http://www.outdoorblog.it/post/151237/lex-tennista-koellerer-accusa-nadal-di-doping-nessuno-crede-che-non-prenda-niente
http://www.rp-online.de/sport/mehr/tennis/daniel-koellerer-wirft-rafael-nadal-doping-vor-1.3702464
http://tenisnews.band.uol.com.br/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=57239


Each of these article have different extracts and paragraphs from his statement, the one from Serbia Blic seems to be the key paragraph:

http://www.b92.net/sport/tenis/vesti.php?yyyy=2013&mm=09&dd=26&nav_id=758085

"Sedam meseci nije igrao zbog povrede, a onda se vrati i osvoji 10 od 13 turnira. To je nemoguće, nemoguće! To sve govori, u kombinaciji sa glasinama da je povreda samo paravan za ‘tihu’ suspenziju. Niko ne veruje da Nadal nije ništa uzimao, ali zamislite koliki bi udarac bio za tenis kada bi njegov test bio pozitivan”U tenisu ima mnogo manipulacije i dopinga. A šta se dogodilo ove godine? Ništa. Osim u mom slučaju, ja sam platio za sve. Sada su zaskočili Viktora Troickog i Marina Čilića. A zašto”, pita se Kelerer. "

"He hasn't player 7 months because of an injury, then he came back and won 10/13 tournaments. That is impossible, impossible! That says everything, especially combined with the roumors that his injury was just a smokescreen for the silent ban. Nobody believes Nadal didn't take anything, but imagine what damage it would be for tennis if HIS test was announced positive!
......
There are a lot of manipulations and doping in tennis. And what happened this year? Nothing.Except in my case, I paid for everything. Now they are on Viktor Troicki's and Marin Cilic's case....And why?", asks Koellerer.

When asked to comment, Toni's reply was: "Koellerer who?"

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by truffin1 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:42 pm

The Nadal fans will says he's a guy in trouble trying to shift attention to someone else, but that's the same thing that was said about the cyclists in the know who accused Armstrong-- and they were proven correct.

I've spoken to many past collegues/friends in various capacities within upper management of athletes/sports who admit that the rumors of doping/silent bans are true, but they, like the sports themselves- are only interested in publically protecting those who can make them the most money.  In tennis, Nadal is the sports second most lucrative commodity.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:51 pm

I don't really care for this stuff 2bh. I get a fleeting interest to see what they say but I don't dwell on it.
The war on drugs will never be won as there is no contest.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:51 pm

truffin1 wrote:The Nadal fans will says he's a guy in trouble trying to shift attention to someone else, but that's the same thing that was said about the cyclists in the know who accused Armstrong-- and they were proven correct.

I've spoken to many past collegues/friends in various capacities within upper management of athletes/sports who admit that the rumors of doping/silent bans are true, but they, like the sports themselves- are only interested in publically protecting those who can make them the most money.  In tennis, Nadal is the sports second most lucrative commodity.
Yes, that's what infuriates me no end..how money destroyed sport.

One after another went athletics, cycling, football etc etc....and now tennis. Well, that's where I draw the line.
To me Fedal is an ultimate metaphor for it, all that was done behind the scenes to create more money by pushing Nadal (draw rigging, dope ignoring, playing conditions altering...) Where the most glorious, once in a life-time, beautiful God-given talent was suffocated and strangled.

And for what?
So that a handful of people can have a life....and  masses with zero taste can feel good after their Sunday lunch watching a freak "win"...

OK, Nadal may or may not be found, but I jolly well am not going to be cowered into silence and say what a nice guy he is. He is not. His tennis is disgusting. And he is the death of tennis.

Until they drag me away in straight jacket..... Angry Grr Nah-Nah monster

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:00 pm

English speaking media still silent and completely ignoring Koellerer's allegations. Makes you sick.
This may "only" be tennis, and people are having more pressing issues and troubles, but they all stem from the same source.

Still, I am always glad when someone "public" speaks out, even if it's a "nobody" like Koellerer.
Make Nadal squirm in his delusional fake bliss. And those who profit from it.

It's important to believe despite everything going around.

I'm beginning to like Tipsarevic's quote from Tolstoy more and more
"Beauty will save the world"

The way things are going, with talent & beauty being killed/eliminated from music, film, literature etc... fight for beauty may be the only modus vivendi left...
The scary thing is that a generation has been already raised who don't even care about it.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:38 pm

He hasn't player 7 months because of an injury, then he came back and won 10/13 tournaments. That is impossible, impossible!
I don't see why.
Nadal didn't play tennis for around 5 months (July -mid December). Then he had 2 months of very high intensity training, he was out on the courts practising.
Then when he returned he seemed to be quite edgy, lacking match fitness and losing to Zeballos. In the first few events he was lucky he could get in the groove with a weak field in a clay 250 which no one really plays.
Eventually he kept on improving his play and played very well during a gruelling clay season. I don't see what's so hard to understand.
If he was doping surely he would have cycled up for Wimbledon (one of the biggest events of the year?).

Another aspect of looking at it is:
Would Nadal, with the style he plays, go throughout his whole career without a serious knee injury? It's practically impossible, with his sliding and exertions he puts on his knee as he twists and turns. Medical experts thought his knee would be gone by age 25 or so, and it's only with significant rest periods that he can find the right balance.
For me the chances of him to have gone from 17-27 without serious knee problems given his style is around 2-5% very very small.


Last edited by Julia Santamaria on Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:39 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
The scary thing is that a generation has been already raised who don't even care about it.
Different people have different opinions.
You think nole is the best, I don't. But you have the freedom to have that opinion.

Somehow you can't grasp this idea.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:52 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Different people have different opinions.
You think nole is the best, I don't. But you have the freedom to have that opinion.

Somehow you can't grasp this idea.
Beating about the bush, quoting meaningless cliches, saying nothing - as usual.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:09 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Different people have different opinions.
You think nole is the best, I don't. But you have the freedom to have that opinion.

Somehow you can't grasp this idea.
Beating about the bush, quoting meaningless cliches, saying nothing - as usual.
It's pretty simple.
You have this superiority complex, which results in you delusionally believing that your opinions override others, which it doesn't. We have tastes which are unique to us, it's not a cliché it's common sense (for everyone apart from you).

I mean, even forgetting the fact your point of view is incredibly hypocritical and operates high level double standards (with your support of Djokovic even though you criticise Nadal and Murray when they do the similar things to Djokovic basically... I will explain more as promised in an article exposing it), you still have to respect this.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by truffin1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:02 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:
He hasn't player 7 months because of an injury, then he came back and won 10/13 tournaments. That is impossible, impossible!
I don't see why.
Nadal didn't play tennis for around 5 months (July -mid December). Then he had 2 months of very high intensity training, he was out on the courts practising.
Then when he returned he seemed to be quite edgy, lacking match fitness and losing to Zeballos. In the first few events he was lucky he could get in the groove with a weak field in a clay 250 which no one really plays.
Eventually he kept on improving his play and played very well during a gruelling clay season. I don't see what's so hard to understand.
If he was doping surely he would have cycled up for Wimbledon (one of the biggest events of the year?).

Another aspect of looking at it is:
Would Nadal, with the style he plays, go throughout his whole career without a serious knee injury? It's practically impossible, with his sliding and exertions he puts on his knee as he twists and turns. Medical experts thought his knee would be gone by age 25 or so, and it's only with significant rest periods that he can find the right balance.
For me the chances of him to have gone from 17-27 without serious knee problems given his style is around 2-5% very very small.
What about Wimbledon tells you he didn't cycle up?  Because he lost?  No one has ever said doping makes you invincible. Doping doesn't change the fact that the court was playing slick and low bouncing in the 1st round- robbing Nadal of much of his ability to grind and generate his preferred type offense.  Doping  doesn't prevent an opponent from playing the match of his life and simply beating you..  Plenty of athletes have proven to have doped and they still struck out at bat while doping, lost matches, didn't catch the football, lost the race...  It's the overall picture that tells the story.

IF Nadal dopes which anyone who I've ever met in the know believes he does- we've seen him both win and lose on it and seen him both play amazing and play badly on it.  A loss at Wimbledon or a struggle in one event does mean a thing in relation to doping.  We've seen year after year of improvement then regression perfectly in sync with what most consider the typical cycling up and down by performance enhancers. That's the big picture.

Also, he very well could and prob does have some form of knee issues... Just like Federer has back issues, as does Murray.  That doesn't mean he can't use that real problem as a smokescreen to cover something else, or exaggerate that real problem.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:42 am

If Nadal dopes which anyone who I've ever met in the know believes he does
That's funny, everytime I meet anyone in the know they believe he doesn't.


What about Wimbledon tells you he didn't cycle up?
I don't think he was cycling up, infact I don't think he's doping at all.

Oh the surface was hardly low bouncing and slick, it looked pretty high bouncing and slow to me.

 
That doesn't mean he can't use that real problem as a smokescreen to cover something else
So you think he had a knee injury and was silently banned at the same time?? That sounds very unlikely.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:19 am

A man who has an injured knee cannot run like Nadal does.
One really has to be both blind and stupid not to see it.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:27 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:It's pretty simple.
You have this superiority complex, which results in you delusionally believing that your opinions override others, which it doesn't. We have tastes which are unique to us, it's not a cliché it's common sense (for everyone apart from you).

I mean, even forgetting the fact your point of view is incredibly hypocritical and operates high level double standards (with your support of Djokovic even though you criticise Nadal and Murray when they do the similar things to Djokovic basically... I will explain more as promised in an article exposing it), you still have to respect this.
I really don't know why you keep dragging Djokovic into every comment.
There is nothing you can expose because you are not able to see that Nadal is doping. If you can't see that then all else is beyond the point.
I am quite happy for Novak to be stripped of everything he won as well as all other players who doped. You don't seem to get that, either.
It is Nadal with his original style of play that was allowed to get away with it and then the rest followed. He killed tennis by not being sanctioned and stopped.
Who is winning matches now?
No, it's not a better tennis player, but the stronger one. Even fitness means nothing.
It will all come out one day, of that I am sure. When he retires, in 10, 20 years....when sponsors stop caring about him. But will he return all the trophies he won doped? No, he'll probably keep them like Agassi did. Until they start burning his conscience like those invisible blood stains Lady Macbeth tried to wash off her hands every night.

My hope is that Novak stops him again  like he did in 2011. ITF and WADA don't seem to want to. I really don't want to see Nadal overtake poor Sampras in GS count.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:19 am

A man who has an injured knee cannot run like Nadal does.
One really has to be both blind and stupid not to see it.
Well you can suffer from injury, recover and then play well. Injuries do not have to be with you 24/7.

I am quite happy for Novak to be stripped of everything he won as well as all other players who doped.
So you think he dopes??

My hope is that Novak stops him again
Even he's a doper?

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:36 am

Julia Santamaria wrote:
A man who has an injured knee cannot run like Nadal does.
One really has to be both blind and stupid not to see it.
Well you can suffer from injury, recover and then play well. Injuries do not have to be with you 24/7.

I am quite happy for Novak to be stripped of everything he won as well as all other players who doped.
So you think he dopes??

My hope is that Novak stops him again
Even he's a doper?
Absolutely!
Didn't you notice how tennis recovered a little while Nadal was out with his "injury". I don't think anyone enjoys having to dope and try to outlast Nadal. He is quite a physical beast as you will no doubt have noticed by now...
Many players got on that "higher" level and changed their game after 2010: Berdych, Tipsarevic, Dimitrov, Murray in particular...doping is the only way to keep at the top for many now as with modern strings etc, artificial endurance wit a bit of baseline drill almost guarantees you success these days. That style of play kills any attacking style 9/10 especially over best of 5. That's the problem.
Nadal is the player who never changed his game just kept juicing himself more and more, hitting that FH harder and harder (as well as safe at the same time), the others have changed their style: Murray in particular, Novak as well.

As for Nadal and the injury not having to be with you 24/7.....I am left a bit speechless here, to be honest....mind you, in Nadal's case you are right 100%, it's there on tap when it suits him.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:26 pm

Didn't you notice how tennis recovered a little while Nadal was out with his "injury".
Yes, the Murray-Djokovic US Open final was the pinnacle of serve volley tennis.


As for Nadal and the injury not having to be with you 24/7.....I am left a bit speechless here
Why are you speechless?
Do you follow any sport? Most sport injuries don't stay with you permanently for life... you have an injury and then get treated (by surgery or non-surgical means), and then after a rest period you come back to play.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:28 pm

Absolutely!
To what?
You think Djokovic is absolutely a doper?

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:30 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Absolutely!
To what?
You think Djokovic is absolutely a doper?
Which letter in the "absolutely" did I misspell?

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:36 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Absolutely!
To what?
You think Djokovic is absolutely a doper?
Which letter in the "absolutely" did I misspell?
Well if it's any consolation, I don't agree with you that Djokovic is doping.

I think Djokovic, like Murray and Nadal, build up stamina through gruelling hard work and legal processes such as CVAC.
Murray has great stamina, and he invited the BBC to follow him throughout all of 2012 for a documentary... including his off-season in Miami (and he showed his gruelling work schedule/timetable in the documentary). Would he invite the BBC all year round if he was doping?

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:42 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Didn't you notice how tennis recovered a little while Nadal was out with his "injury".
Yes, the Murray-Djokovic US Open final was the pinnacle of serve volley tennis.


As for Nadal and the injury not having to be with you 24/7.....I am left a bit speechless here
Why are you speechless?
Do you follow any sport? Most sport injuries don't stay with you permanently for life... you have an injury and then get treated (by surgery or non-surgical means), and then after a rest period you come back to play.
My final response in this "debate", Amri as your blinkers make it impossible to go anywhere.

Why am I speechless? OK, not only do I follow sport (to be more precise I used to, now it's reduced to tennis only these days and even that is receding because of the quality of tennis that has gone down the pan due to Nadal's  physical "contribution" to its "(d)evolution") I actually play sports too, and have done so all my life.
I know what I am talking about as I don't need to consult Wikipedia when I talk about fitness and injuries. I don't need to consult other people on other forums to confirm that I am right like you seem to. Hence your feeling of my "superiority". I know I am right.
So I know very well what a body is able to do without doping although I have never used any myself.

As for injuries, if you do have one, esp tendon related one (have suffered from knee one, even elbow unfortunately), there is no way you can play like Nadal does. The sheer amount of running would  have torn those tendons long ago if there was anything MUCH wrong with them.
He probably has wrecked the knees a lot, esp with all the dodgy injections and treatments he allegedly received (plasma etc), but at the end of the day, the test of how bad they are is out: 10/13 in 2013 finals won, all with the same grinding style, including HARD court tournaments.

I know you are not able to see it, so don't bother to "understand" it, it's tiring to hear your going round in circles reasoning - spiced up with an odd snide remark.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:48 pm

As for injuries, if you do have one, esp tendon related one (am suffering one even now myself, unfortunately), there is no way you can play like Nadal does. The sheer amount of running would have torn those tendons long ago if there was anything MUCH wrong with them.
He probably has wrecked the knees a lot,
It's impossible to debate against you given you keep on contradicting yourself every 10 seconds, in the same paragraph.
He has no injury.. but then has wrecked his knees a lot??

but at the end of the day, the test of how bad they are is out: 10/13 finals won
No, because he got that after he took months out to let his knees recover.
Are you aware that you can recover from injuries?

I know what I am talking about as I don't need to consult Wikipedia when I talk about fitness and injuries. I don't need to consult other people on other forums to confirm that I am right like you seem to. Hence your feeling of my "superiority". I know I am right.
The word delusional springs to mind.
The majority of injuries sports stars get these days don't put them out until retirement... they take some time off and get treated.


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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:50 pm

And if you think Djokovic is doping, why are you still a Djokovic fan?

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by truffin1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:54 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
If Nadal dopes which anyone who I've ever met in the know believes he does
That's funny, everytime I meet anyone in the know they believe he doesn't.


What about Wimbledon tells you he didn't cycle up?
I don't think he was cycling up, infact I don't think he's doping at all.

Oh the surface was hardly low bouncing and slick, it looked pretty high bouncing and slow to me.

 
That doesn't mean he can't use that real problem as a smokescreen to cover something else
So you think he had a knee injury and was silently banned at the same time?? That sounds very unlikely.
Then you clearly don't know people as in the know as I do.

Wimpy isn't as fast and low as it was or should be, but the early rounds are still faster and lower than most, and when Nadal is most vulnerable. It's laughable to pretend otherwise.

You really don't comprehend or you pretend not to comprehend what people are saying. It's clearly part of your game on these forums..  You have this big theory that Nadal has to have knee problems because of his style, etc- and I said- sure, he very well might have some form of a knee problem as many players do, but he's very likely using it as an excuse when convienient to him.  Did he have a slight knee injury he picked up right before he was banned? Maybe he did. An injury can happen at any moment, so it's not unlikely at all that he picked one up right before his break...  or maybe he didn't at all and he was just using it as an excuse.. I know one thing though, and to me it's convincing evidence that there was a lie in relation to the 7 months missed.  Anyone with any knowledge, ever been around a patella tendon tear- even a partial one- knows that it's excruciating to bend or flex the leg... Anyone who knows that injury knows that the only way to heal (esp without surgery) is to immobilize the leg in a locked straight position.  Yet- Nadal was caught by paparazzi pictures jet sking with legs bent, climbing up ladders, jumping from a yacht into the water with his legs flailng- all with a big smile on his face............  You don't do those things with a patella tear.   That's no different than the worker who is suing the company for a neck injury and the private investigator catches him on a roller coaster without his neck brace on...... It's clearly a scam.    So Nadal was lying or scamming people with the patella part of his claims which pretty much tells us there was something being covered up and prob the whole thing was a lie.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by truffin1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:01 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
Absolutely!
To what?
You think Djokovic is absolutely a doper?
Which letter in the "absolutely" did I misspell?
Well if it's any consolation, I don't agree with you that Djokovic is doping.

I think Djokovic, like Murray and Nadal, build up stamina through gruelling hard work and legal processes such as CVAC.
Murray has great stamina, and he invited the BBC to follow him throughout all of 2012 for a documentary... including his off-season in Miami (and he showed his gruelling work schedule/timetable in the documentary). Would he invite the BBC all year round if he was doping?
You don't seem to understand that athtletes that dope do the grueling work just like any other athtlete- it enhances the results of that work. You honestly think a documentary team following an athtlete around prevents his from having private time to do certain things...  come on.......   How many rock stars for example have had cameras around them for documentaries and been doing drugs-- plenty.  Watch Elvis on Tour - do you see anything on there that shows you that he's addicted to sleep medication and uppers?  No.. but he was. He is charming, dynamic, clear headed, incredible on stage and in the studio...... but was already hopelessy addicted.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:05 pm

Then you clearly don't know people as in the know as I do.
I know people higher up in the ITF than you can imagine...

 Wimpy isn't as fast and low as it was or should be, but the early rounds are still faster and lower than most, and when Nadal is most vulnerable. It's laughable to pretend otherwise.
Comparitively perhaps.
But against Darcis the Nadal FH was kicking up and spinning very high on the Darcis backhand. We could see why he lost, the commentators picked it up immediately.

As for the injury, unless you have the full details it's difficult to know the exact permuations or different people. I have spoken to medical experts, and they confirmed that Nadal's sequence of knee injuries would make sense given the style he plays; and as it was only a partial tear it is actually possible to move it around without pain... but putting extended pressure on it for hours on end can be very uncomfortable.


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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:08 pm

You don't seem to understand that athtletes that dope do the grueling work just like any other athtlete- it enhances the results of that work. You honestly think a documentary team following an athtlete around prevents his from having private time to do certain things... come on....... How many rock stars for example have had cameras around them for documentaries and been doing drugs-- plenty. Watch Elvis on Tour - do you see anything on there that shows you that he's addicted to sleep medication and uppers? No.. but he was. He is charming, dynamic, clear headed, incredible on stage and in the studio...... but was already hopelessy addicted.
Yes, fair point.
I just see it inherently unlikely that Murray would let the BBC team actually follow him off-season (as well as during the season), and actually stay through all his training sessions and even let them enter his room.
Bit risky, no? If Andy is doping that is.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:43 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote: Would he invite the BBC all year round if he was doping?
Lots of athletes in sports have done that and some have later been convicted of doping or likely to be doping as past result extrapolation would tend to suggest doping.
For instance chris froome is likely to be doping and team sky invited journalist david walsh on the tour de france with them...

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:47 pm

Can you give me an example of an athlete who has been found doping, to have invited TV to follow them all year round, even during off season training?

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:00 pm

lance armstrong.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:00 pm

guys on team sky who were then ostracized from their team as well as former team garmin riders.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:02 pm

truffin sums it up very well here so why are you asking me again when you seemed to agree with it?

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:47 pm

No, but the BBC seemed to cover it extensively, more so than any player-documentary I have seen in the past.
I just don't think he'd take the risk to allowed people to see his training session and go into his room if he was doping... or maybe he would. I don't think so though.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:05 pm

Well then you haven't heard about paul kimmage's and steve walsh's tour's of cycling teams. 

I hugely disagree with what you say, but each to their own.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:26 pm

I'm not saying it's impossible he's doping, I just don't think he'd take that much of a risk, calling the BBC over like that.
Or would he? He seemed to be filmed everywhere, his room, his gym etc.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:58 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:I'm not saying it's impossible he's doping, I just don't think he'd take that much of a risk, calling the BBC over like that.
Or would he? He seemed to be filmed everywhere, his room, his gym etc.
...yeah, they probably share the same bed, squeeze toothpaste on his toothbrush etc, as well Laugh


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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:13 pm

For a smart guy JS I am sorry to say but I think you are very naive on this topic.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:16 pm

luvsports! wrote:For a smart guy JS I am sorry to say but I think you are very naive on this topic.
No, that's nothing to do with naivity LS, just the plain old refusal to accept the blatant truth.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by truffin1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:21 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Can you give me an example of an athlete who has been found doping, to have invited TV to follow them all year round, even during off season training?
Lance Armstrong to "prove" he wasn't doping had cameras following him during the complete training of one of his last Tour attempts, had independent doctors give him doping tests live streamed on the internet every day or few days, and had those tests results publically posted on his website... Far more access than we've ever seen from anyone in sports.   IT was all a giant scam on his part to trick people into thinking exactly what you think "surely he must be clean or he wouldn't let these people follow him around"  He allowed much more access than Murray did and Armstrong was doping. It's also proof that the dopers are always ahead of the tests.. Armstrong was being given legitimate state of the art tests that should have shown he was doping, but he and his doctors knew the tests were useless against the technology they were using.    

Not that I am accusing Murray or thinking that's what he was doing- just pointing out that others have done this and it was all a smokescreen.


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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:25 pm

Does anyone know if that idea of freezing blood samples for more advanced testing and catching dopers retrospectively is actually in place.
I remember Federer being very much for it a few years ago but don't know if WADA (or whoever else is responsible) are actually doing it.
But even if they do, I suppose the question is will they ever publish those results.
They never did anything about athletics in the 80s and 90s as was shown in that documentary The Race That Shocked The World....


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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by truffin1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:36 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
Then you clearly don't know people as in the know as I do.
I know people higher up in the ITF than you can imagine...

 Wimpy isn't as fast and low as it was or should be, but the early rounds are still faster and lower than most, and when Nadal is most vulnerable. It's laughable to pretend otherwise.
Comparitively perhaps.
But against Darcis the Nadal FH was kicking up and spinning very high on the Darcis backhand. We could see why he lost, the commentators picked it up immediately.

As for the injury, unless you have the full details it's difficult to know the exact permuations or different people. I have spoken to medical experts, and they confirmed that Nadal's sequence of knee injuries would make sense given the style he plays; and as it was only a partial tear it is actually possible to move it around without pain... but putting extended pressure on it for hours on end can be very uncomfortable.
Then we must know some of the same people!! Yet they are telling you one thing and me another :-).. In actuality though- I know more of the money side executives... management, promoters,etc...  the guys who actually know what is going on behind the scenes with their athletes in order to protect their investment.  The Sport itself, much like the ML Baseball owners, NFL owners, Boxing commissioners, keep their heads purposely in the sand-- what they pretend they don't know can't hurt them is their belief...     What has to happen is like in baseball- a fan uprising that hurts the pocketbooks of the owners....that's all that speaks to these guys.. As long as Tennis continues to draw record crowds and ratings- the sport will do nothing but pretend to care about what athletes are doing to their bodies.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by truffin1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:43 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Does anyone know if that idea of freezing blood samples for more advanced testing and catching dopers retrospectively is actually in place.
I remember Federer being very much for it a few years ago but don't know if WADA (or whoever else is responsible) are actually doing it.
But even if they do, I suppose the question is will they ever publish those results.
They never did anything about athletics in the 80s and 90s as was shown in that documentary The Race That Shocked The World....

It was never put in place... to0 real of a possibility of tarnishing legacies that the sport builds on..
Here's a good article about Dick Pound- former head of Anti Doping agency - and his belief that all major sports including Tennis have doping at the top-- he specifically mentions what he sees in the top of the tennis world that can run endlessly for 4 hours +.....

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by truffin1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:53 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
You don't seem to understand that athtletes that dope do the grueling work just like any other athtlete- it enhances the results of that work. You honestly think a documentary team following an athtlete around prevents his from having private time to do certain things... come on....... How many rock stars for example have had cameras around them for documentaries and been doing drugs-- plenty. Watch Elvis on Tour - do you see anything on there that shows you that he's addicted to sleep medication and uppers? No.. but he was. He is charming, dynamic, clear headed, incredible on stage and in the studio...... but was already hopelessy addicted.
Yes, fair point.
I just see it inherently unlikely that Murray would let the BBC team actually follow him off-season (as well as during the season), and actually stay through all his training sessions and even let them enter his room.
Bit risky, no? If Andy is doping that is.
You mean just like Elvis  did in my example above? He was so open and comfortable in front of the camera's there are outtakes of him talking to his friends about all type of personal things that the Elvis image at that time would not have wanted out there. He had forgotten the cameras were there...   You don't think it would be risky for him and Colonel Parker (his manager) to let that type of access around him that might capture him medicated?  Yet they did.   In the rarefied cocooned world of superstars, you just can't imagine how untouchable they feel at times.. They fool themselves into believing they are not doing anything wrong... Even Armstrong spoke well on this.

It's why Toni can openly admit he coaches Nadal on court and not think twice about saying it... or Nadal admitting he is oncourt coached.. They feel so entitiled and know they are protected, it doesn't dawn on them what they are even admitting too.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:56 pm

truffin1 wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Does anyone know if that idea of freezing blood samples for more advanced testing and catching dopers retrospectively is actually in place.
I remember Federer being very much for it a few years ago but don't know if WADA (or whoever else is responsible) are actually doing it.
But even if they do, I suppose the question is will they ever publish those results.
They never did anything about athletics in the 80s and 90s as was shown in that documentary The Race That Shocked The World....

It was never put in place... to0 real of a possibility of tarnishing legacies that the sport builds on..
Here's a good article about Dick Pound- former head of Anti Doping agency - and his belief that all major sports including Tennis have doping at the top-- he specifically mentions what he sees in the top of the tennis world that can run endlessly for 4 hours +.....
Like you say, there has been much talk of it being implemented, but so far they don't seem keen to resort to it..... 
CADF (cycling anti doping foundation) have pushed for it but as of yet nada!
Retroactive over retrospective.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:08 pm

truffin1 wrote:You mean just like Elvis  did in my example above? He was so open and comfortable in front of the camera's there are outtakes of him talking to his friends about all type of personal things that the Elvis image at that time would not have wanted out there. He had forgotten the cameras were there...   You don't think it would be risky for him and Colonel Parker (his manager) to let that type of access around him that might capture him medicated?  Yet they did.   In the rarefied cocooned world of superstars, you just can't imagine how untouchable they feel at times.. They fool themselves into believing they are not doing anything wrong... Even Armstrong spoke well on this.

It's why Toni can openly admit he coaches Nadal on court and not think twice about saying it... or Nadal admitting he is oncourt coached.. They feel so entitiled and know they are protected, it doesn't dawn on them what they are even admitting too.
Yes, that sense of entitlement is so obvious when it comes to Nadal, the way he throws his weight about with umpires and especially other players.
I was astounded when during that RG SF, he (the 5th seed  I think at the time) refused Novak's request to have the court watered after 6:6 in the 5th set.
Courts are always watered after every set, and the umpire had to put the foot down and implement the plain logic, but obviously got his "orders" before the match.
Not to mention the vulgar familiarity with Larry Ellison...who even laid an extra sandy coat of paint just to have Nadal play in IW. No wonder Nadal ran to give HIM a hug FIRST when he won the tournament...
To be a fly on the wall at those meetings when they get the "reassurance" they can just carry on as they wish.
And how the other players must feel so second rate for all the wrong reasons. Such a shame.

For all his "bravery" Gulbis never had the guts to say anything about Nadal unlike Safin. Same for JJ.
The locker room atmosphere must be pretty bad.
That's why I like Koellerer speaking out even more. Being banned for life, he obviously has nothing to lose.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by luvsports! on Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:13 pm

Safin said something about nadal?

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:14 pm

truffin1 wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Does anyone know if that idea of freezing blood samples for more advanced testing and catching dopers retrospectively is actually in place.
I remember Federer being very much for it a few years ago but don't know if WADA (or whoever else is responsible) are actually doing it.
But even if they do, I suppose the question is will they ever publish those results.
They never did anything about athletics in the 80s and 90s as was shown in that documentary The Race That Shocked The World....

It was never put in place... to0 real of a possibility of tarnishing legacies that the sport builds on..
Here's a good article about Dick Pound- former head of Anti Doping agency - and his belief that all major sports including Tennis have doping at the top-- he specifically mentions what he sees in the top of the tennis world that can run endlessly for 4 hours +.....
Well, that says everything, doesn't it....no wonder the Spanish court ordered those 200 blood bags to be destroyed.
Now I am really motivated to do my bit in O2 this year, should be fun!

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:22 pm

luvsports! wrote:Safin said something about nadal?
He was not very complementary about Nadal's style of play. This is from an article commenting on Wimbledon 2008 QF matches (particularly interesting Murray's comment with the benefit of historic hindsight)

"Safin, twice a grand slam winner but now down at 75 in the rankings, became so enraged with his patchy play in the opening set that he fired a ball over the roof and out of the court.

But Safin, once a self-confessed hater of Wimbledon's treacherous green lawns, managed to put a lid on his emotions in a match which soon turned into a battle of the booming serves.
He out-aced Lopez 18 to 17 and his tally of 45 unreturnable serves was one more than the serve-and-volley loving Spaniard.
A double fault from Lopez gave 28-year-old Muscovite a place in the Wimbledon semi-finals for the first time but he was not about to get carried away about his chances of ending Federer's five-year reign on Friday.
"To beat Federer you need to be Nadal and run around like a rabbit and hit winners from all over the place. I think it would be just a little bit too difficult for me to beat him," said Safin, who last won five successive matches during his triumphant run to the 2005 Australian Open.
Murray had celebrated reaching his first grand slam quarter-final by rolling up his sleeve and flexing his bulging bicep on Monday.
Forty-eight hours later he came face-to-face with the owner of the most famous muscles in tennis and Nadal dealt the knock out punch after an hour and 55 minutes of one-sided action.
"This was my best match here for sure," the 22-year-old Majorcan powerhouse said. "I tried to play aggressive all the time and hit big power on my forehand. I'm happy to be in the semi-final and also to beat such a tough player."

Murray, who had produced a stirring comeback from two sets and 4-5 down to beat Frenchman Richard Gasquet in the previous round, acknowledged he was second best on every count.

"His forehand was ridiculous, I couldn't get any rhythm... I felt rushed on every point. All I could do was hope his level would go down a bit but I had no chances at all," said the Scot.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:29 pm

truffin1 wrote:Lance Armstrong to "prove" he wasn't doping had cameras following him during the complete training of one of his last Tour attempts, had independent doctors give him doping tests live streamed on the internet every day or few days, and had those tests results publically posted on his website... Far more access than we've ever seen from anyone in sports.   IT was all a giant scam on his part to trick people into thinking exactly what you think "surely he must be clean or he wouldn't let these people follow him around"  He allowed much more access than Murray did and Armstrong was doping. It's also proof that the dopers are always ahead of the tests.. Armstrong was being given legitimate state of the art tests that should have shown he was doping, but he and his doctors knew the tests were useless against the technology they were using.    

Not that I am accusing Murray or thinking that's what he was doing- just pointing out that others have done this and it was all a smokescreen.
In that case I think LS was right actually (to say I wasn't aware of this sort of thing).
I thought it was unlikely Murray would take these risks if he was doping, but if Lance and others you and LS mentioned had done the trick before... maybe I'm wrong.

If I am wrong though... dear me Andy is a cynical man.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by DECIMA on Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:31 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Now I am really motivated to do my bit in O2 this year, should be fun!
I am going to the O2 too. Should be fun.
Try not to make accusations without evidence or anything though, someone may have notified the security crew before the event to warn about that.

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Re: Daniel Koellerer: Nadal Is Doping!

Post by noleisthebest on Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:55 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:
Now I am really motivated to do my bit in O2 this year, should be fun!
I am going to the O2 too. Should be fun.
Try not to make accusations without evidence or anything though, someone may have notified the security crew before the event to warn about that.
And who may that someone be? Laugh 

It would bean honour to get kicked out for calling Nadal a doper. But I don't think it will happen, though...
You see Amri, the world revolves around the paying customer, security could not care less about your Rafito hearing another fan, especially a nice and well-mannered one like me diva 

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