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Shot clock

Post by bogbrush on Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:49 pm

Bravo to the US Open for finally getting a handle on ridiculous delays. Djokovic was outrageous in the final, routinely turning in 17 ball bounces while the opponent has to stand prepared to receive.

It’s cheating plain and simple. The receiver is put at a serious disadvantage.

All I hope is that the Umpires aren’t given discretion.


Last edited by bogbrush on Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Shot clock

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:22 pm

I agree.

Just upsets me that we have to have a machine do the job of an umpire.

Why?

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Daniel on Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:10 pm

The umpires have made it clear that they aren't going to do their job - so technology should do it for them.  It's practically replacing them regardless.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by bogbrush on Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:57 pm

Yeah, with shot clock and Hawkeye we can pretty much do away with them. The score can be announced as it is updated by recorded voice.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by legendkillar on Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:04 pm

I think once the clock reaches zero the offending player should be tazered by the clock!

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Jahu on Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:59 pm

Hahahahah git

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Re: Shot clock

Post by summerblues on Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:37 pm

Are we sure the USO will be using the shot clock in the main draw? I am hearing they will, but worried I will be disappointed. I remember seeing some articles before the AO suggesting the same, but they did not use it in the main draw.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:29 am

summerblues wrote:Are we sure the USO will be using the shot clock in the main draw?  I am hearing they will, but worried I will be disappointed.  I remember seeing some articles before the AO suggesting the same, but they did not use it in the main draw.

According to the below they will.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/sports/us-open-serve-clock.html

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Slippy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:40 am

noleisthebest wrote:I agree.

Just upsets me that we have to have a machine do the job of an umpire.

Why?
Agree with this. The rule should have been simple to enforce. One warning the very first time a player goes over the time limit, penalties for every time thereafter. None of this “soft warning” nonsense or looking at the average over a long period of time. Hit Nadal will a warning first point and a serve penalty second point and he will swiftly realise his gamesmanship is no longer tolerated. 

I don’t think people who don’t play tennis fully understand how effective this type of gamesmanship is. When I play tennis, I have various trigger movements to get myself set (which will be the same as the pros). If someone is constantly changing the number of times they bounce the ball it’s near impossible to get properly set. Similarly, if you are playing at a certain speed and suddenly, on a break point, the server takes much longer it is very off-putting.

There obviously will need to be some umpire discretion for crowd antics etc. However, the fact the crowd will now be able to see the timer will force the umpires to actually do their job properly. I can already see the reaction of the crowd in a Fedal match at the US Open if a time violation isn’t enforced!

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Re: Shot clock

Post by gallery play on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:49 am

I do think the shot clock will have very little impact, if any at all.
NAdal and Djokovic (the 2 players everyone will be looking at in this case) won't have any problems in the openingrounds. It should get interesting when they play each other (like saturday, i clocked Nadal twice at 38 secs the very first game), or when they meet an in form Federer. 

But the crux here is:

The chair umpire will run the 25-second clock and will be given leeway to delay the start of it in certain situations: after a particularly long point late in a grueling match, in hot and steamy conditions, or if there is a fan disturbance, for example.

In a Nadal-Djokovic match most ref's will continuously fall back to this and keep both players happy, that's my expectation

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Re: Shot clock

Post by gallery play on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:51 am

Slippy wrote:I don’t think people who don’t play tennis fully understand how effective this type of gamesmanship is.
fully agree
Thumbs Up

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Re: Shot clock

Post by naxroy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:45 pm

gallery play wrote:I do think the shot clock will have very little impact, if any at all.
NAdal and Djokovic (the 2 players everyone will be looking at in this case) won't have any problems in the openingrounds. It should get interesting when they play each other (like saturday, i clocked Nadal twice at 38 secs the very first game), or when they meet an in form Federer. 

But the crux here is:

The chair umpire will run the 25-second clock and will be given leeway to delay the start of it in certain situations: after a particularly long point late in a grueling match, in hot and steamy conditions, or if there is a fan disturbance, for example.

In a Nadal-Djokovic match most ref's will continuously fall back to this and keep both players happy, that's my expectation

Well done by umpires

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Re: Shot clock

Post by legendkillar on Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:57 pm

They haven't done anything yet!

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:24 pm

I think naxroy means well done that they will continue to just break their own rules to help Nadal.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:00 pm

There are quite a few players that meke a meal out of their serving prep, to me, Nadal and Sharapova are the worst with their rituals...I would hate to play them. It’s simple bad manners if nothing else to keep you opponent waiting.

Nole with his extra bouncing, Cilic, too are a pain...there is no need for that. 

And while I am at it, get rid of on court towelling...

I can’t see how the clock is going to actually work, will it sound after 25 seconds automatically and deduce 1st serve followed by a point?
That’s how I’d do it...it would sort the problem pronto.

The other day I was watching video clips on Wimbledon website and they had a vintage one of Rosol vs Nadal...a record 38 seconds long service game from the legend.

The fact Nole looked quite irritated when asked by the journos at Queens about it, may suggest the clock is not just going to be a token at USO.

We’ll see....though it’s hard for me to imagine even the clock stop Nadal from his time abuse...if they really wanted to curb it, they could have done it long time ago.

Look how quickly they changed the mum’s rule for Serena!

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Re: Shot clock

Post by luvsports! on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:23 pm

Daniel wrote:I think naxroy means well done that they will continue to just break their own rules to help Nadal.

Laugh . 
I think i found your antithesis on twitter. He is hilarious. https://twitter.com/JonKramerT
You don't have twitter do you?

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Daniel on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:06 pm

Laugh

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Re: Shot clock

Post by luvsports! on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:43 pm

My favourite quote he did was along the lines of, 'Federer should have won max 4 slams. The rest he got lucky, players were injured, easy draws' etc.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by summerblues on Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:40 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
summerblues wrote:Are we sure the USO will be using the shot clock in the main draw?  I am hearing they will, but worried I will be disappointed.  I remember seeing some articles before the AO suggesting the same, but they did not use it in the main draw.

According to the below they will.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/sports/us-open-serve-clock.html
All right, let's hope they enforce it properly.  I am cautiously optimistic - extra waiting between serves is not too good for TV, so they have some incentive to fight it.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by summerblues on Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:43 am

noleisthebest wrote:Nole with his extra bouncing, Cilic, too are a pain...there is no need for that. 
Delpo is horrible too.

noleisthebest wrote:And while I am at it, get rid of on court towelling...
Indeed.  I will never forget seeing Roddick towel himself after his opponent's DF.  Otherms may have done it too, but Roddick was the first one where I saw it - I was flabbergasted.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:10 am

I seem to recall it was Grinnin’ Greg who was first with the towel mania. Anyone know of an earlier one?

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Re: Shot clock

Post by naxroy on Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:51 pm

and nadal won canada with shot clock

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Slippy on Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:34 pm

I didn’t see much of Rafa’s matches in Canada. However I did watch the tiebreak in the final. It was notable that Rafa went over time twice that I saw (although only just) without any warning following.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by naxroy on Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:51 pm

umpire´s decision

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Re: Shot clock

Post by bogbrush on Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:33 pm

Actually I thought the whole point was that it wouldn’t be. 

Depends on whether it was rare and marginal I guess.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by DEC1M7 on Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:33 pm

Nadal very rarely went to the final 5 seconds. Most of the time was ok with around 8 seconds or so to spare.

As for the 2 occasions B_S saw, he started his serve motion as the clock hit 0, and threw the ball perhaps 0.5 seconds later. I guess he could have got a warning (marginal), but then it's so easy to serve on time with the clock staring at you, I doubt he will ever get 2 violations and lose his first serve.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by bogbrush on Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:33 pm

Good, so it was never necessary.

Should have been brought in 10 years ago. The 35 seconds, or worse, delays have been a blight on the sport,

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Re: Shot clock

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:37 am

DEC1M7 wrote:Nadal very rarely went to the final 5 seconds. Most of the time was ok with around 8 seconds or so to spare.

As for the 2 occasions B_S saw, he started his serve motion as the clock hit 0, and threw the ball perhaps 0.5 seconds later. I guess he could have got a warning (marginal), but then it's so easy to serve on time with the clock staring at you, I doubt he will ever get 2 violations and lose his first serve.

The purpose of the clock is to keep its fair for all players. The purpose of the clock is for receiver to have a data point to argue with the umpire that the serve is indeed taking too long. Else he has nothing to argue with the umpire. 

The purpose of the clock is for umpires, referee and all the crowd to see what's going.

 Nadal has been known to go over board with over 35 even 39 seconds. And multiple times. Then comes back and claim after the match he was not aware of it. Umpires allowing are also at fault.

If the presence of the shot-clock can keep players within the 25/20 sec boundary, the purpose is served. I don't want players to get penalty, lose points and the match. I want the match to be played within rules by both players.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Slippy on Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:13 pm

Agreed - Novak actually seems to have slightly more problems than Nadal, arguing a couple of times with the umpires about warnings. It definitely has cut down the worst excesses.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by summerblues on Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:21 am

Slippy wrote:It definitely has cut down the worst excesses.
Agree.  Much more watchable.  I no longer have to put up with players dragging their feet between the serves.  Now they just get on with it.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by naxroy on Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:47 am

thing is

rule says that time starts the very moment the point is achieved, and not after the umpire calls the score.

but what umpires are doing is starting the clock after they call the score.
this sometimes is delayed by public making noise after the point (big applause...) so in general, many more players are now taking more time than before and nadal is not having much problem with the rule

before shot clock was implemented I had the impression that in umpires' minds, time started after they called the score and not after the point was made, and that was the reason for nadal being regularly over 30 seconds, 
this made many of you very angry, but I tried to explain this many times... for umpires, it was all ok most of the times, simply because measurement was being made few seconds after the point had ended

not only in umpires' view, but also in most of the players', as almost 100% admire and respect rafa instead of considering him a cheat like many of you do.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by legendkillar on Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:43 pm

Behave for gawd sake!

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Re: Shot clock

Post by bogbrush on Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:57 pm

Referees should give Messi a yard or so in his favour for offside decisions, he’s universally admired and the fans would see more goals.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by DEC1M7 on Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:09 pm

That's not what Naxroy just said. He's saying that umpires have always started the count after they call the score, and we are just seeing that manifest itself transparently with a shot clock.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Tenez on Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:03 pm

bogbrush wrote:Referees should give Messi a yard or so in his favour for offside decisions, he’s universally admired and the fans would see more goals.
good point!

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Slippy on Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:14 pm

Sorry Naxroy but I don’t agree with that. I’ve seen no evidence that players are playing slower as a result. The only players regularly getting near the zero mark are the players who were the worst offenders beforehand. They’ve been forced to speed up slightly. 

There is an argument that the umpires should start the clock earlier but I’m not too fussed about that. As long as there is consistency I don’t see much problem. This was only ever about cutting out the worst excesses, not forcing players to run from point to point.

The real point you should be making on here is that it’s had zero overall impact on Nadal. He hasn’t lost a match yet with a shot clock in operation! Totally putting to rest the nonsense on here that he needed the extra time to recover!

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Tenez on Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:22 pm

Slippy wrote:...
The real point you should be making on here is that it’s had zero overall impact on Nadal. He hasn’t lost a match yet with a shot clock in operation! Totally putting to rest the nonsense on here that he needed the extra time to recover!

Typical Slippy absurdity or lack of balance in his judgement. Nadal has taken extra time in the past to recover between points he says it himself as he complained a 1000 times about referees sticking to the rule.

He might have won matches within a distorted rule, he has not won a slam yet. In spite of teh slowest conds, highest bounce, he is not going through the rounds as smoothiy as last year when the clock was not there.

If he plays Djoko in the final, that clock is going to kill him.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by DEC1M7 on Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:57 pm

Slippy wrote:
The real point you should be making on here is that it’s had zero overall impact on Nadal. He hasn’t lost a match yet with a shot clock in operation! Totally putting to rest the nonsense on here that he needed the extra time to recover!
Indeed.
Obviously having extra seconds helps any player in between points, but the key question is now that the extra seconds aren't there, who is harmed more: Nadal or his opponent?
I've always thought it's possible Nadal is actually doing his opponents a favour by taking extra time, and so far it seems the shot clock is helping him.
He is so far unbeaten with the shot clock, and he may lose in the semis or final, but I doubt the shot clock would be a factor in the defeat.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by naxroy on Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:10 am

from what I see, rafa is quite ok with the time he has and in general, players are taking a little more time than before

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Re: Shot clock

Post by barrystar on Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:46 am

DEC1M7 wrote:
Slippy wrote:
The real point you should be making on here is that it’s had zero overall impact on Nadal. He hasn’t lost a match yet with a shot clock in operation! Totally putting to rest the nonsense on here that he needed the extra time to recover!
Indeed.
Obviously having extra seconds helps any player in between points, but the key question is now that the extra seconds aren't there, who is harmed more: Nadal or his opponent?
I've always thought it's possible Nadal is actually doing his opponents a favour by taking extra time, and so far it seems the shot clock is helping him.
He is so far unbeaten with the shot clock, and he may lose in the semis or final, but I doubt the shot clock would be a factor in the defeat.

I take your point - but I've always thought it's not just a question of having more time to recover, it's also a question of being in control of when you have to switch 'on' for the next point - a player being forced to wait has to turn himself 'on' a bit earlier than the person who is taking time and over the space of a bo5 match that differential probably involves the time-taker using up less nervous energy.  If you know when your opponent is going to have to start and you can time your turning 'on' to a clock which you can both see he loses that advantage.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by naxroy on Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:35 am

barrystar wrote:
DEC1M7 wrote:
Slippy wrote:
The real point you should be making on here is that it’s had zero overall impact on Nadal. He hasn’t lost a match yet with a shot clock in operation! Totally putting to rest the nonsense on here that he needed the extra time to recover!
Indeed.
Obviously having extra seconds helps any player in between points, but the key question is now that the extra seconds aren't there, who is harmed more: Nadal or his opponent?
I've always thought it's possible Nadal is actually doing his opponents a favour by taking extra time, and so far it seems the shot clock is helping him.
He is so far unbeaten with the shot clock, and he may lose in the semis or final, but I doubt the shot clock would be a factor in the defeat.

I take your point - but I've always thought it's not just a question of having more time to recover, it's also a question of being in control of when you have to switch 'on' for the next point - a player being forced to wait has to turn himself 'on' a bit earlier than the person who is taking time and over the space of a bo5 match that differential probably involves the time-taker using up less nervous energy.  If you know when your opponent is going to have to start and you can time your turning 'on' to a clock which you can both see he loses that advantage.

very good point

thus, the shot clock is good for the game, but because it is being measured from a correct moment (after scored is called)

and I say "correct" in the sense that it gives the umpire the power to analyze the circumnstances for each moment.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Emancipator on Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:16 pm

DEC1M7 wrote:
Slippy wrote:
The real point you should be making on here is that it’s had zero overall impact on Nadal. He hasn’t lost a match yet with a shot clock in operation! Totally putting to rest the nonsense on here that he needed the extra time to recover!
Indeed.
Obviously having extra seconds helps any player in between points, but the key question is now that the extra seconds aren't there, who is harmed more: Nadal or his opponent?
I've always thought it's possible Nadal is actually doing his opponents a favour by taking extra time, and so far it seems the shot clock is helping him.
He is so far unbeaten with the shot clock, and he may lose in the semis or final, but I doubt the shot clock would be a factor in the defeat.
Agree. The introduction of the SC has not dented Nadal one bit. If anything I suspect, in these conditions, if he were to play against Djokovic, the SC would be to his advantage. That match is close to 50:50 for me or maybe 55:45 Screech.

Barry's point about control of play is also a good one.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Daniel on Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:52 pm

Slippy wrote:
The real point you should be making on here is that it’s had zero overall impact on Nadal. He hasn’t lost a match yet with a shot clock in operation! Totally putting to rest the nonsense on here that he needed the extra time to recover!

Erm. No.

1. This is clay court 2.

2. It's on faster surfaces where he would need the extra time to recover from all the running he's doing while attacking players just move him left to right.  Attacking players aren't used to longer rallies and are at a disadvantage on slower surfaces.

3. This isn't remotely a good shot clock.  It still allows too much time and it isn't being enforced properly at any rate.

4. The main problem with not having a shot clock is that it allows Nadal's ugly gamesmanship.  That at least will be gone in some part. 

5. Nadal has had a piss easy draw again.  Del Potro is brainless, but if he turns up, Nadal will go home.  Slow surface or not.  Nadal is lucky he didnt get Fed's draw.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Daniel on Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:54 pm

naxroy wrote:umpire´s decision

<  case in point.  This retarded comment.  Thumbs Up  Only someone so far up Nadal's arse his nose is popping out of Nadal's neck would make such a stupid comment.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by naxroy on Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:08 pm

Daniel wrote:
naxroy wrote:umpire´s decision

<  case in point.  This retarded comment.  Thumbs Up  Only someone so far up Nadal's arse his nose is popping out of Nadal's neck would make such a stupid comment.

wasnt it umpire´s decision?

nice to see you Dani

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Emancipator on Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:41 pm

Daniel wrote:
Slippy wrote:
The real point you should be making on here is that it’s had zero overall impact on Nadal. He hasn’t lost a match yet with a shot clock in operation! Totally putting to rest the nonsense on here that he needed the extra time to recover!

Erm. No.

1. This is clay court 2.

2. It's on faster surfaces where he would need the extra time to recover from all the running he's doing while attacking players just move him left to right.  Attacking players aren't used to longer rallies and are at a disadvantage on slower surfaces.

3. This isn't remotely a good shot clock.  It still allows too much time and it isn't being enforced properly at any rate.

4. The main problem with not having a shot clock is that it allows Nadal's ugly gamesmanship.  That at least will be gone in some part. 

5. Nadal has had a piss easy draw again.  Del Potro is brainless, but if he turns up, Nadal will go home.  Slow surface or not.  Nadal is lucky he didnt get Fed's draw.

1. No, it's a HC. No how matter how slow or bouncy it is (and let's face it - it's not exactly Miami or IW) the movement required for  a CC is inherently different to that required for a HC. Not to mention the uneven bounce on clay and how clay changes due to many factors: humidity, rain, wind affecting top soil etc.

2. Illogical. It's on these medium paced/slower courts that the rallies tend to be the longest. So it one is going to be impacted by limited rest between points it would take place here more than on a faster surface.

3. Well of course it's not going to be perfect at the first attempt. It's an improvement on what came before and that was the point - to improve the spectator experience by taking out unnecessary time wasted. If you're looking for a Nadal-specific time clock, you're gonna be waiting for a long time.

4. It was never intended for just Nadal.

5. It may not be the hardest draw but to call it piss easy is ridiculous. Kachanov is a solid 3rd rounder. Thiem earned his HC spurs in the quarters, and I think most would agree that outside of Djokovic Del Potro is the hardest possible semi opponent that Rafa could have had. And he most probably will have to get past Djokovic anyway. Overall I'd say a pretty tough draw.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by legendkillar on Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:08 pm

DEC1M7 wrote:That's not what Naxroy just said. He's saying that umpires have always started the count after they call the score, and we are just seeing that manifest itself transparently with a shot clock.

I saw it him saying that basically because the umpires are were not starting the count correctly, that it makes it less of an offence. 

Either way, it was rule breaking prior to the clock. However, I'll be interested to see post the US swing if that habit returns. 

He's not the only offender I might add. So I see Cilic, Delpo and Djokovic coming under the same scrutiny.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by Daniel on Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:47 pm

When the US Open hard court has Thiem, Nadal, Djokovic, Nishikori going this far... you know it's no longer the tournament it was and may as well be clay.  You're a deluded idiot for thinking otherwise.

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Re: Shot clock

Post by naxroy on Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:59 pm

Daniel wrote:When the US Open hard court has Thiem, Nadal, Djokovic, Nishikori going this far... you know it's no longer the tournament it was and may as well be clay.  You're a deluded idiot for thinking otherwise.


well, novak is one of the best hardcourt players ever

and delpo and nishikori are hardcourt players (just look at the tournaments won and finals reached by both)


only rafa is not a hardcourt player and still has like the 10th better hardcourt CV in history

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Re: Shot clock

Post by DEC1M7 on Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:42 am

emancipator wrote:It may not be the hardest draw but to call it piss easy is ridiculous. Kachanov is a solid 3rd rounder. Thiem earned his HC spurs in the quarters, and I think most would agree that outside of Djokovic Del Potro is the hardest possible semi opponent that Rafa could have had. And he most probably will have to get past Djokovic anyway.
Overall I'd say a pretty tough draw.
Yeah, as someone who has watched all the Nadal matches (some of them during early hours of mornings so not sure if everyone has watched them too), he has had some very tough opponents. Kachanov played a very good match against him, while Thiem was superb in the QF, red lining for large periods.

Sometimes the run in can be harder than a draw looks on paper. For example on paper Federer had a tough draw with Kyrgios. However in a hot day session Kyrgios gave an immature performance and went down easily. Meanwhile Milman was much more focused and solid, and even in the cooler (but still tough) night session was able to take advantage of Federer's physical woes and go through.

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