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Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

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Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:42 am

The answer is not as straightforward as it seems.

I remember reading an interview with Pouille's coach last year in which he said we should really not aspire to build/model players like Federer as he is a one-off and has a special talent.
He said Nadal was a better example - grit, determination, focus, hard work etc.

With that I agree, everyone falls short compared to Federer and by some margin.

Also, I remember one comment from LS when he said how much he liked Goffin, yet compared to Federer's talent he can't even tie his shoelaces...


So, who IS the second best player in this era, one left with human, mortal talent?

We have many exciting players who are not consistent (Dolgopolov, Gulbis, Brown...)

Then we have the successful ones who bring no fun and flair, making the most of their fitness and slowed down conditions: Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Raonic...

Then some very good ones who play /come to life well in short batches: eg Fognini...

Then the young ones that are just about to burst onto scene within a year or two: Pouille, Dimitrov...


That leaves us with Stan and Nishi.


What do you all think?


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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:17 pm

If the question is only about at the moment, then its difficult to say who is the best atm. Fed has won AO but, its not like he is going to be the favorite for the next 2-3 slam.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:03 pm

My thinking was more along the lines of best player, not the most successful, i.e. which player has best risk to consistency ratio.
Not this very atm, but in general the second best player on tour.

I don't count Djokovic, Murray or Nadal in that group as they would rank quite low, they play a very low risk tennis.

As things are it's Stan and Nishi.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Emancipator on Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:32 pm

Stan is not so talented in my book. He stands miles back and takes huge cuts at the ball. Take some time away from him an he becomes pretty average.

I think Rafa is underrated in terms of talent. Did anyone see the half volley off the baseline and down the line against Federer - now that takes some incredible hand-eye coordination - can't see Djokovic doing that.

Rafa also has very soft hands and is one of the best volleyers on the tour - much better at the net than Djokovic. Overall he's behind Federer in terms of talent but definitely ahead of Djokovic.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by bogbrush on Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:47 pm

You're really asking who is the 2nd most talented.

That's a tough question because on the whole the rest have strong and weak points, and to net them off and make a decision is very down to subjectivity. The difference to Federer is self evident, he's just obviously more talented than the rest in most attributes but I don't see that applying to the rest.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Tenez on Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:56 pm

Yes if it about being the most talented or best player on the day (more or less the same thing) I agree it is between Stan and Nishi for now,,,,,maybe Dimi, Thiem or Pouille. But if I had to pick one now it would be Stan.

It's very simple nowadays one cannot win slams with a SHBH unless supremely talented.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by bogbrush on Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:12 pm

TMF wrote:Stan is not so talented in my book. He stands miles back and takes huge cuts at the ball. Take some time away from him an he becomes pretty average.

I think Rafa is underrated in terms of talent. Did anyone see the half volley off the baseline and down the line against Federer - now that takes some incredible hand-eye coordination - can't see Djokovic doing that.

Rafa also has very soft hands and is one of the best volleyers on the tour - much better at the net than Djokovic. Overall he's behind Federer in terms of talent but definitely ahead of Djokovic.
I feel both Nadal and Murray play a game further inside the boundaries of their talent because it wins them more Slams.

That's another difference to Federer, who mostly brings it all to the contest.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Veejay on Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:49 pm

NITB wrote:The answer is not as straightforward as it seems.

I remember reading an interview with Pouille's coach last year in which he said we should really not aspire to build/model players like Federer as he is a one-off and has a special talent.
He said Nadal was a better example - grit, determination, focus, hard work etc.

With that I agree, everyone falls short compared to Federer and by some margin.

Also, I remember one comment from LS when he said how much he liked Goffin, yet compared to Federer's talent he can't even tie his shoelaces...


So, who IS the second best player in this era, one left with human, mortal talent?

We have many exciting players who are not consistent (Dolgopolov, Gulbis, Brown...)

Then we have the successful ones who bring no fun and flair, making the most of their fitness and slowed down conditions: Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Raonic...

Then some very good ones who play /come to life well in short batches: eg Fognini...

Then the young ones that are just about to burst onto scene within a year or two: Pouille, Dimitrov...


That leaves us with Stan and Nishi.


What do you all think?

to answer this question you really have to define what "talent" in tennis means 
there are several factors that goes into winning matches,are those factors or attributes what you now consider to be the talent an athlete needs to pay tennis 
is talent shot making,is talent natural power,is talent natural athleticism,hand-eye coordination?
we can take richard gasquet for instance..widely considered to be one of the most naturally talented player on tour,looks completely out of depth the way the game is played today

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:29 pm

TMF wrote:Stan is not so talented in my book. He stands miles back and takes huge cuts at the ball. Take some time away from him an he becomes pretty average.

I think Rafa is underrated in terms of talent. Did anyone see the half volley off the baseline and down the line against Federer - now that takes some incredible hand-eye coordination - can't see Djokovic doing that.

Rafa also has very soft hands and is one of the best volleyers on the tour - much better at the net than Djokovic. Overall he's behind Federer in terms of talent but definitely ahead of Djokovic.

The thing is, every one of those pros pull off amazing shots from time to time, the key is how often and how consistently.


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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:31 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes if it about being the most talented or best player on the day (more or less the same thing) I agree it is between Stan and Nishi for now,,,,,maybe Dimi, Thiem or Pouille. But if I had to pick one now it would be Stan.

It's very simple nowadays one cannot win slams with a SHBH unless supremely talented.
I thought so, too.

Compared to Nishi he has actually won something.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:32 pm

bogbrush wrote:You're really asking who is the 2nd most talented.

That's a tough question because on the whole the rest have strong and weak points, and to net them off and make a decision is very down to subjectivity. The difference to Federer is self evident, he's just obviously more talented than the rest in most attributes but I don't see that applying to the rest.

I think it's quite objective.

I would define a tennis talent as the ability to win a point with fewest shots played.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:35 pm

Veejay wrote:
to answer this question you really have to define what "talent" in tennis means 
there are several factors that goes into winning matches,are those factors or attributes what you now consider to be the talent an athlete needs to pay tennis 
is talent shot making,is talent natural power,is talent natural athleticism,hand-eye coordination?
we can take richard gasquet for instance..widely considered to be one of the most naturally talented player on tour,looks completely out of depth the way the game is played today

Yes there are several factors that play a part: hand to eye coordination is numero uno by some margin,  also it does help if you are not too tall or too short.

In my opinion, the key is in consistency of high-quality shots, i.e. shotmaking, especially under pressure.

So in this era we have two such players capable of winning slams: Federer and Wawrinka.

Nadal, Djokovic and Murray don't play shotmaking tennis, they rely on drawing an error, though they each do it in their own style.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Veejay on Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:00 pm

NITB wrote:
Veejay wrote:
to answer this question you really have to define what "talent" in tennis means 
there are several factors that goes into winning matches,are those factors or attributes what you now consider to be the talent an athlete needs to pay tennis 
is talent shot making,is talent natural power,is talent natural athleticism,hand-eye coordination?
we can take richard gasquet for instance..widely considered to be one of the most naturally talented player on tour,looks completely out of depth the way the game is played today

Yes there are several factors that play a part: hand to eye coordination is numero uno by some margin,  also it does help if you are not too tall or too short.

In my opinion, the key is in consistency of high-quality shots, i.e. shotmaking, especially under pressure.

So in this era we have two such players capable of winning slams: Federer and Wawrinka.

Nadal, Djokovic and Murray don't play shotmaking tennis, they rely on drawing an error, though they each do it in their own style.
that may not be our idea of how tennis should be played,but still it requires a honed skill which theoretically in turn requires some kind of talent to achieve 
its a very interesting questioned you asked NITB,which would be looked at and argued from so many different angles 
i think that there is also a very big difference between just having raw talent and how a player plays the game
the way the athlete plays the game isnt a direct reflection on their innate talent cause at the end of the day,its winning that counts,not how you necessarily how you won
on the flip side you could also argue if theres no b or c game plan then it proves how limited the player is and that theres a clear limit to their ability/talent 
i think that murray and djokovic have the talent to play shot making tennis,but play defensive tennis cause either its their comfort zone or they feel thats where they will have the most success

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Emancipator on Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:04 pm

NITB wrote:
TMF wrote:Stan is not so talented in my book. He stands miles back and takes huge cuts at the ball. Take some time away from him an he becomes pretty average.

I think Rafa is underrated in terms of talent. Did anyone see the half volley off the baseline and down the line against Federer - now that takes some incredible hand-eye coordination - can't see Djokovic doing that.

Rafa also has very soft hands and is one of the best volleyers on the tour - much better at the net than Djokovic. Overall he's behind Federer in terms of talent but definitely ahead of Djokovic.

The thing is, every one of those pros pull off amazing shots from time to time, the key is how often and how consistently.

Yes, that's a fair point and also the moments when they do it. Like Federer hitting a tweener to get to matchpoint is crazy..

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:14 pm

TMF wrote:
NITB wrote:
TMF wrote:Stan is not so talented in my book. He stands miles back and takes huge cuts at the ball. Take some time away from him an he becomes pretty average.

I think Rafa is underrated in terms of talent. Did anyone see the half volley off the baseline and down the line against Federer - now that takes some incredible hand-eye coordination - can't see Djokovic doing that.

Rafa also has very soft hands and is one of the best volleyers on the tour - much better at the net than Djokovic. Overall he's behind Federer in terms of talent but definitely ahead of Djokovic.

The thing is, every one of those pros pull off amazing shots from time to time, the key is how often and how consistently.

Yes, that's a fair point and also the moments when they do it. Like Federer hitting a tweener to get to matchpoint is crazy..
Tweener is a trick shot.
You don't practise those.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:52 pm

Veejay wrote:
that may not be our idea of how tennis should be played,but still it requires a honed skill which theoretically in turn requires some kind of talent to achieve 
its a very interesting questioned you asked NITB,which would be looked at and argued from so many different angles 
i think that there is also a very big difference between just having raw talent and how a player plays the game
the way the athlete plays the game isnt a direct reflection on their innate talent cause at the end of the day,its winning that counts,not how you necessarily how you won
on the flip side you could also argue if theres no b or c game plan then it proves how limited the player is and that theres a clear limit to their ability/talent 
i think that murray and djokovic have the talent to play shot making tennis,but play defensive tennis cause either its their comfort zone or they feel thats where they will have the most success

I think the opposite.

Obviously, everyone wants to win, and that's where we can easily see how talented a player is, because in order to win, they need to play within themselves.

So if they are not able to play high risk shots consistently, they have to play safe shots until they feel comfortable enough to play a winner or draw an error from the opponent.

Very simple.

Nobody talented wants to grind and sweat, but some don't have any other choice.


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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Daniel on Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:16 pm

Best player atm: Hard to say.  I wouldn't say it's Federer on the basis of one tournament. It would have to be Djokovic, despite his slide.

2nd.  probably Federer or Murray.  

None of them look particularly deadly or consistent from what I've seen.  And Raonic, Dimitrov, Kyrgios of the tour should be right there capitalizing. And they aren't.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Veejay on Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:29 pm

NITB wrote:
Veejay wrote:
that may not be our idea of how tennis should be played,but still it requires a honed skill which theoretically in turn requires some kind of talent to achieve 
its a very interesting questioned you asked NITB,which would be looked at and argued from so many different angles 
i think that there is also a very big difference between just having raw talent and how a player plays the game
the way the athlete plays the game isnt a direct reflection on their innate talent cause at the end of the day,its winning that counts,not how you necessarily how you won
on the flip side you could also argue if theres no b or c game plan then it proves how limited the player is and that theres a clear limit to their ability/talent 
i think that murray and djokovic have the talent to play shot making tennis,but play defensive tennis cause either its their comfort zone or they feel thats where they will have the most success

I think the opposite.

Obviously, everyone wants to win, and that's where we can easily see how talented a player is, because in order to win, they need to play within themselves.

So if they are not able to play high risk shots consistently, they have to play safe shots until they feel comfortable enough to play a winner or draw an error from the opponent.

Very simple.

Nobody talented wants to grind and sweat, but some don't have any other choice.

i said that cause a lot of it has to do with how you were coached and how you were taught to play the game
old habits die hard and you cant teach an old dog new tricks
to grind a point out also requires skill which in turn theoretically requires some kind of talent to achieve
that why i asked the question earlier... is physical athleticism what you would now consider having talent to play tennis
like you i am one whose opinion is that tennis is still very much be a racket sport, but as we all know the game isnt played like it is today

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:06 pm

Veejay wrote:
i said that cause a lot of it has to do with how you were coached and how you were taught to play the game
old habits die hard and you cant teach an old dog new tricks
to grind a point out also requires skill which in turn theoretically requires some kind of talent to achieve
that why i asked the question earlier... is physical athleticism what you would now consider having talent to play tennis
like you i am one whose opinion is [b that tennis is still very much be a racket sport, but as we all know the game isnt played like it is today[/b]

I think tennis has always been a physically demanding sport, but now the level of physicality has gone to unnatural levels, which is why we need unnatural talent to win.

The coaching element is also interesting in relation to talent.

Can you coach instincitive play?

I think Boletieri Academy is a killer of talent.
Look at Nishi.

Despite the obvious talent, you can see something is missing.
I used to half jokingly say it was his Japanese automated gene, but probably it's the tennis factory he grew up in that may have contributed to his slightly unimaginative style.

With his talent, he could also have a better serve despite his height.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by raiders_of_the_lost_ark on Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:20 am

NITB wrote:With his talent, he could also have a better serve despite his height.

How did you spot his absolutely hidden serving talent?

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:55 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
NITB wrote:With his talent, he could also have a better serve despite his height.

How did you spot his absolutely hidden serving talent?
Nishi has exceptional ball striking talent, second only to Federer.

His timing is really special, look how clean and fast both his groundstrokes are, so a clear indication of great hand to eye coordination.

Now with that talent, he should be able to time his serve better, i.e. make it faster.

Instead, he has this "learnt" Bolettieri factory motion, same as Jelena Jankovic, who also never won a slam as her serve was average as a result.

A player who times his serve beautifully is Adrian Mannarino, you can barely hear any sound that's how cleanly he hits the ball.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by legendkillar on Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:29 am

Fognini and Goffin behind him.

Case closed.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:23 pm

Daniel wrote:Best player atm: Hard to say.  I wouldn't say it's Federer on the basis of one tournament. It would have to be Djokovic, despite his slide.

2nd.  probably Federer or Murray.  

None of them look particularly deadly or consistent from what I've seen.  And Raonic, Dimitrov, Kyrgios of the tour should be right there capitalizing. And they aren't.
I can't see a case for Djokovic. If we're saying "most effective", the rankings say it's Murray. If we're saying "most talented" then no way in this World am I rating Djokovic anywhere near Federer (and i put him behind a few others).

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Tenez on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:44 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Daniel wrote:Best player atm: Hard to say.  I wouldn't say it's Federer on the basis of one tournament. It would have to be Djokovic, despite his slide.

2nd.  probably Federer or Murray.  

None of them look particularly deadly or consistent from what I've seen.  And Raonic, Dimitrov, Kyrgios of the tour should be right there capitalizing. And they aren't.
I can't see a case for Djokovic. If we're saying "most effective", the rankings say it's Murray. If we're saying "most talented" then no way in this World am I rating Djokovic anywhere near Federer (and i put him behind a few others).
And Murray even further down....Though Murray looks a tiny bit more stylish than Djoko he doesn't seem able to sustain pace as well as Djoko. But that's probably due to poorer mouvement.

This poorer mouvement is essentially due to a bigger frame than Djoko...though the bigger frame was aimed at helping mouvement in the first place. Djoko certainly got the winning formula when it comes to this lung busting tennis.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Veejay on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:41 pm

NITB wrote:
Veejay wrote:
i said that cause a lot of it has to do with how you were coached and how you were taught to play the game
old habits die hard and you cant teach an old dog new tricks
to grind a point out also requires skill which in turn theoretically requires some kind of talent to achieve
that why i asked the question earlier... is physical athleticism what you would now consider having talent to play tennis
like you i am one whose opinion is [b that tennis is still very much be a racket sport, but as we all know the game isnt played like it is today[/b]

I think tennis has always been a physically demanding sport, but now the level of physicality has gone to unnatural levels, which is why we need unnatural talent to win.

The coaching element is also interesting in relation to talent.

Can you coach instincitive play?

I think Boletieri Academy is a killer of talent.
Look at Nishi.

Despite the obvious talent, you can see something is missing.
I used to half jokingly say it was his Japanese automated gene, but probably it's the tennis factory he grew up in that may have contributed to his slightly unimaginative style.

With his talent, he could also have a better serve despite his height.
i personally dont believe that you can coach someone to become an instinctive player,but you can definitely coach an instinctive player,the outcome could be positive or negative depending on the coaching 
watching serve and volley tennis of the 90's compared to watching baseline slugfests of today,to me its like watching 2 completely different sports

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Daniel on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:45 pm

Murray certainly isn't "further down".  He's world number 1 for a reason - whether he is a boring inconsistent player or not. Over the year he has been the best. Djok is in two for a reason also - but he had many more points to defend.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Tenez on Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:18 pm

Daniel wrote:Murray certainly isn't "further down".  He's world number 1 for a reason - whether he is a boring inconsistent player or not. Over the year he has been the best. Djok is in two for a reason also - but he had many more points to defend.

By the same logic you coudl say he lost to Misha Zverev while Federer beat Misha in 3 ..... for a reason.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:18 pm

Daniel wrote:Murray certainly isn't "further down".  He's world number 1 for a reason - whether he is a boring inconsistent player or not. Over the year he has been the best. Djok is in two for a reason also - but he had many more points to defend.
If we reduce it to most effective we don't need a thread, just a link to the rankings.

On that basis the answer to who is the 2nd best is Djokovic.

I think the question only has a discursive value if we mean talented.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Daniel on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:00 pm

Well, taking everything together, I would put Djok first despite rankings, but Murray has to be second along with Federer.  I don't think it's possible to explain MUrray's ranking any other way than he has been the better player - with the exception of Djok who had a drop in form and had tons of points to defend. And of course, Federer... who has been injured 6 months.

No one else is in the picture as of now.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:03 pm

His do you put the #2 first when your criteria for Murray is the rankings? 
Either it's rankings or it's talent, and on talent Federer is a country mile ahead of anyone in the game, possibly anyone who has ever played it. I accept you may disagree but we mustn't confuse the rankings with talent.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Daniel on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:02 pm

My criteria isn't just the rankings. I've made that pretty clear.  It's a combination of all factors.  That's why i put Murray 2nd with Fed - and Djok first.

I am willing to bet that if Federer played 5 Slam finals against Djok at this time, he'd lost at least 3 of them. Murray would probably lose at least 4.

Federer v Murray is a little more interesting, but match up favours Federer.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Tenez on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:13 pm

So you cannot see "much" difference between Federer thrashing Misha Zverev with flicks of his wrist without hardly running and Murray having to scrap right and left being dictated by world number 40? All you see is Murray is number 1 and Federer number 17?

I think it's a bit of a shame if you ask me. You are missing a lot of factors and parameters when watching tennis it seems.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Daniel on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:16 pm

I'm talking about current form and who would win at this moment in time.  The title doesn't say anything about "talent".  So I won't comment on it.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by bogbrush on Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:15 pm

The question anyway was 2nd best player of the era, not this week, and refers to talent.

The players used to illustrate the question make clear the meaning is innate talent, bit grit or running skills.

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Daniel on Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:27 am

bogbrush wrote:The question anyway was 2nd best player of the era, not this week, and refers to talent.

The players used to illustrate the question make clear the meaning is innate talent, bit grit or running skills.

"atm" means at the moment.  Blame the author for a poor title.  Peace Dove

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by Tenez on Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:47 am

So if considering "atm" it should be Nadal, Stan or Nishi whof provided Federer the most trouble in the last fully field tournament.


Only kidding Winking

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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by noleisthebest on Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:43 am

Daniel wrote:
bogbrush wrote:The question anyway was 2nd best player of the era, not this week, and refers to talent.

The players used to illustrate the question make clear the meaning is innate talent, bit grit or running skills.

"atm" means at the moment.  Blame the author for a poor title.  Peace Dove

Well, even if the question has not been worded perfectly, there is still the "OP" that I believe clarified it:

NITB wrote:The answer is not as straightforward as it seems.

I remember reading an interview with Pouille's coach last year in which he said we should really not aspire to build/model players like Federer as he is a one-off and has a special talent.
He said Nadal was a better example - grit, determination, focus, hard work etc.

With that I agree, everyone falls short compared to Federer and by some margin.

Also, I remember one comment from LS when he said how much he liked Goffin, yet compared to Federer's talent he can't even tie his shoelaces...


So, who IS the second best player in this era, one left with human, mortal talent?

We have many exciting players who are not consistent (Dolgopolov, Gulbis, Brown...)

Then we have the successful ones who bring no fun and flair, making the most of their fitness and slowed down conditions: Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Raonic...

Then some very good ones who play /come to life well in short batches: eg Fognini...

Then the young ones that are just about to burst onto scene within a year or two: Pouille, Dimitrov...


That leaves us with Stan and Nishi.


What do you all think?


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Re: Who Is The Second Best Player Atm?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:57 pm

Exactly.

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