Are Serena and Djokovic too fit?

Larry Ellison wrote:

Veejay wrote:Im not making any allegations,I am just voicing my suspicions
Why are you so paranoid and worried anyway?
If youre innocent then you have nothing to hide and nothing to worry about
I personally dont care who or what Wilson is,as long as its not someone multi idying
But you cant deny he sounds a awful lot like Socal,the style of writing and vocabulary is almost identical

You said quite directly that I am Mickey. You only stopped that after Tenez proved you were wrong.
Wilson posts nothing like Socal, from what I have seen.

Actually I havent stopped,I still maintain the same opinion
I dont know,his attempt to belittle this forum and its posters is in the same spirit and manner that reminds me of Socal
Sorry but Im going to trust my memory rather then yours
Why are you defending him anyway? Cant he defend himself

[quote="Veejay"][quote="Tenez"]

Veejay wrote:

Yeah but I could easily as my friend TRuffin who lives in the states to sign in on my id and then it will say that I am located in the states
Thats my point
I dont think it proves anything

Fair enough. So you could have asked your friend to make an account?

Thats totally different from multi IDing which was alleged.
Theres nothing wrong with introducing your friends to the forum, in fact it helps the site.

I've already admitted I asked Socal to join the forum last year. Is there anything wrong with that?
I did not know Mickey or Wilson before they joined here, I knew LS, SB, LF from v2 though I admit.

Veejay, I'm waiting for Tenez to confirm whether your allegations are false again before I say anything more.

Amri Im not going to argue with you about this,and I don't even know why youre on the defence like this unless you and Wilson are partners in crime

I'm defending Socal here because I genuinely believe your allegations are false.

Tenez, have you checked?

If Veejay is correct in his allegations, I will apologise.

Amri please give it a rest,nothing is going to change my opinion so you may as well give up

Well that just shows how narrow minded you are here.

Veejay wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Veejay wrote:When it comes to trolling forums in same kind of league Amri and friends do,I think a different IP address proves nothing
Im not trying to convince anyone that Wilson is Socal,Im just saying that like Nadal himself,his fans are ahead of the game too looking for every given opportunity to troll
All they have to do is ask one of their other trolling buddies to run one of their ids while they use another one to prove they arent the same person
I also believe IP addresses can quite easily be changed if you have some IT experience

Another strange coincidence that Wilson didnt deny being Socal like Mickey didnt deny being Amri
Not even an attempt? If anyone ever accused me of being Socal I would go to great lengths to prove otherwise
Im sure a few others would also be offended,but Wilson ( who sounds a lot like Socal) isnt

I am not checking IP addresses. I am checking location. I can see where one is posting from and though there coudl be possibility to mix that up it's a bit harder than using 2 IP addresses.

I can see you. Larry and I are based in London for instance.

Yeah but I could easily as my friend TRuffin who lives in the states to sign in on my id and then it will say that I am located in the states
Thats my point
I dont think it proves anything

Indeed, but I also notice differences in their views. Wilson for instance is a fan of Fed and not fan of Djoko which is very much opposite to Socal's views. It did not take us long to work out Larry was Amri and he does not deny it either.

Tenez, my account is still the same one as before.
I just went on profile and changed usernames, which is allowed here.

Was Wilson the same location as Socal?

Well in fairness I only saw the one comment he made on this article and half of another on another article
It was just a tirade of abuse so I couldnt see beyond that
It doesnt matter cause it seems like Wilson doesnt mind being mistaken for Socal as he has yet to say otherwise


It wouldnt surprise me if it turns out to be Socal pretending to be a Fed fan to throw the scent off
He has been known to use Djokovic to mask his Nadal bias

Wilson has left the forum I think, so he hasn't seen the allegations.
It doesn't really show anything.

Larry Ellison wrote:Well that just shows how narrow minded you are here.

Im hardly going to lose sleep over it Amri,so please give it a rest now

Youre the one making up ridiculous allegations.

Tenez, can you not put this nonsense to bed and reveal whether they match?

If anyone should put an end to this nonsense its you Amri
Just agree to disagree and put the pipe down

Veejay wrote:
It wouldnt surprise me if it turns out to be Socal pretending to be a Fed fan to throw the scent off
He has been known to use Djokovic to mask his Nadal bias

Everything is possible. But to me it's only letters and words and since I don;t even know the original posters, I won;t even bother trying to work out who are the duplicates.

Did they match then?

Tenez wrote:

Veejay wrote:
It wouldnt surprise me if it turns out to be Socal pretending to be a Fed fan to throw the scent off
He has been known to use Djokovic to mask his Nadal bias

Everything is possible. But to me it's only letters and words and since I don;t even know the original posters, I won;t even bother trying to work out who are the duplicates.

Amri is clearly linked to Wilson in some or other way,much like Socal is

I only knew him after he joined, but after that I admit I thought he's a really good poster.
Posts on TT Warehouse as well.

Larry Ellison wrote:I only knew him after he joined, but after that I admit I thought he's a really good poster.
Posts on TT Warehouse as well.

So what were you going to admit to us if Tenez confirmed what you wanted him to?

I was hoping you'd stop the silly allegations.
Anyway, goodnight.

Tenez wrote:I don;t think Wilson is Socal. I'll double check but I doubt.

I would also be surprised if Wilson were Socal. To me, the style of their writing is quite different.

In the past SB you kept talking about cogen and his points thingy ma jiggy and how good it was.
I have now seen that and its very impressive but yours is still top notch, gotya back bru, u know it!

Im curious about your interest in sport and your knowledge on doping,I know you mentioned that you did extensive research about it,was it for a thesis? Cant remember
But what have you been able to take away from it all,any personal experiences?
If not,whats our take on things re the subject
Am really keen to know,always good to hear other opinions

The way I see it,in comparison to Nadal,theres virtually nothing on them,not even any substantial rumours just speculation.I mean with LA there were loads of eye witnesses and a lot of substantial rumours etc and its kinda similar with Nadal.Theres so much circumstantial evidence linking him that you cant place anyone else in the same category,it would otherwise be unfair
I know that just because theres little to nothing that we can go by,it isn't by any means a foregone conclusion and doesnt guarantee anything but the thing is without proof our suspicions remain just that
Im still on the fence about Serena because if she does dope,then I wouldnt classify her as a regular drug user
If you think back to 2001-2004,she was really in shape back then, a lot more toned and leaner than the last few years,plus she was basically winning everything for a few seasons,you cannot be that consistent relying on drugs
Plus the timing of events makes it near on impossible,as seen with Nadal
AO is too far apart from the other slams,you could just about sneak the U.S Open in doing the Euro double but AO rules the summer slams out
This is why Nadal will never reach the finals of all 4 majors in a season and why his summer was a disaster when he won AO,and why his results were poor at AO when sweeping the clay and grass court season
Even though the AO surface suits him far more then grass does his success or failure is purely down to the timing of the events
This makes wiming 4 majors in a row virtually impossible if youre relying on drugs

I am more suspicious of Djokovic then I am of Serena because his transformation was a little too good to be true,granted a lot of it could be mental and him just discovering his confidence,but his physical improvement was quite remarkable
Most of all his ability to endure longer then Nadal,proving to be much fitter and faster is surprising for someone who was retiring because of heat/exhaustion,a blister or dehydration only a few month earlier
But apart from all that,there isnt anything more substantial,its hard to even suspect a plausible drug and how that would relate in terms of cycles
What do you think he is on,that is if you think he is doping,
Its not Clenbuterol or any of the various strains of EPO, its definitely something similar with far less side effects....I mean the guy was literally bouncing off the ceiling
Unless they had him on diet,caffeine and ADD pills on top of the juice,it definitely looked a bit crystal meth like,like where your body cant react fast enough to the force of energy
But even then such a cocktail would guarantee paranoia and
His self confidence looked like it was being boosted by kilos of cocaine plus his peak nearly lasted the entire season long- unheard of
I cant think of anything that work on a 12 month cycle
What do you make of it?

But even then such a cocktail would guarantee paranoia and
His self confidence looked like it was being boosted by kilos of cocaine plus his peak nearly lasted the entire season long- unheard of
I cant think of anything that work on a 12 month cycle
What do you make of it?

I personally woudl not know much about details and who takes what and when. I simply judge on style and perf. When I first watched Errani I straight away associated the style with Nadal and that was enough for me to sort her out as a doper cause nowadays it's too physical to win moonballing like Wilander or Berasategui did 20 or 30 years ago. The opposition is too good and will make you run till you die...except that nowadays, they don;t die...they run faster and longer....plus the strings will make their attacking opponents do some of the running too. This is why guys like Berdych and Delpo had to join the club...and many others but those 2 are the obvious "attacking" ones.

SO in short, details are not that important for me, I might be wrong sometimes but it's much more likely to be in the sense that I think one is innocent while guilty than the other way around ...and when we all found out that Errani was using a dodgy doctor from LA, it conforts me in my thinking. You have got to ignore way too many obvious facts and doddgy performances nowadays to innocent 98% of tennis players.

You obviously know a lot more about the technical side of the game then I do but I think on the surface judging by the style of play only can be misleading-within reason of course
I think Serena would be the perfect example,to most people she's all about power,demolishing,crushing,over powering,obliterating and her and her sister are the ones who completely changed the womans game,made it more about athleticism and power which is why I think Henin doped,otherwise she wouldnt have stood a chance against the power players like that swiss girl who retired,cant remember her name

Whether or not Serena is doping is still very much debatable but a very strong case can be made for her powerful hard hitting game to stem from her natural ability
I dont think someone can go away for 6 months to a year and come back with such a serve all neatly preserved and still technically flawless
That comes from years of hard work and practice for sound perfection that stays with you forever,so if youre taking drugs to help generate more pace and power,6 months off tour with no practice would be suicidal,theres no way you could ever come back and just pick up where you left off even with the drugs

No youre not wrong,it depends from which angle youre coming from.You can tell through style,technique and racket technology if someone is depending on substances to make up for what ever their game lacks and I can simply tell by looking at their physique and monitoring their season.I cant see things the way you do as my understanding of the game isnt remotely as deep as yours,

Im just curious to know what the hell Djokovic is taking,I seriously doubt that i whatever he is taking would be legal cause its clearly enhancing his ability beyond a natural means
I could be wrong of course,it could be his diet and the egg chamber,but with regards to the actual drug,I stand by my opinion

I would like to hear what Luvsports thinks

Djokovic was not at his best for all of 2011- he had a back injury after the USO I think which affected him.

As for Nadal, the reason he does poorly at the end of the season on indoor hard is quite simply- it's his worst surface.
Look at 2009, he was shambolic on indoor hard in WTF, then was sensational a week later when he obliterated Berdych in the Davis Cup on clay.

Veejay wrote:Whether or not Serena is doping is still very much debatable but a very strong case can be made for her powerful hard hitting game to stem from her natural ability

Sure. But she is still massive. Bizarrely bulky. Natural or not? I don't think we can quite sort it out just by watching her.

I dont think someone can go away for 6 months to a year and come back with such a serve all neatly preserved and still technically flawless. That comes from years of hard work and practice for sound perfection that stays with you forever,so if youre taking drugs to help generate more pace and power,6 months off tour with no practice would be suicidal,theres no way you could ever come back and just pick up where you left off even with the drugs

Isn't it what Nadal just did? That's the beauty of a game relying on power and stamina as opposed to fine timing and perfect mouvement.

No youre not wrong,it depends from which angle youre coming from.You can tell through style,technique and racket technology if someone is depending on substances to make up for what ever their game lacks and I can simply tell by looking at their physique and monitoring their season.I cant see things the way you do as my understanding of the game isnt remotely as deep as yours,

It's not that difficult. You look at who wants to extend the rally, who wants to shorten it.....except that most times nowadays on either side of the net, they both are on something and the one with best game/most advanced stuff combination wins.

I'm just curious to know what the hell Djokovic is taking,I seriously doubt that i whatever he is taking would be legal cause its clearly enhancing his ability beyond a natural means

I think what they take is simply untraceable noawadays. This is why they now all claim they want more testing. It's the perfect solution....so far.

Problem Djoko and Murray have compared to Nadal is that though they are more talented, they do not have the powerful safe ground shots which can mess up the timing of their opponents badly. When playing Nadal you play a ball different than the rest of teh tour, when you play Djoko or Murray (though this latter is getting close to Nadal) have not the power on the shots and therefore give the oposition a shot to trouble them. Nadal just stands 4m behind teh baseline and sends those high bouncy powerful shots difficult to attack and therefore forces the long rallies like no other player can. Nadal has certainly developed his game around steroids and epo like no-other has.

Tenez- before you quickly dismiss Nadal as a player with no shotmaking ability who just relies on 'moonballing'- have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvJ2AhXLU6g
The rally is at 00:37.
Pause at 1:09 to see the Hawekeye projectory.
How many players can do that? Have you paused it at 1:09? Show me a clip of someone else, including this generation with the same rackets etc., who can do that. Go on.


Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e9RgDvl4LA
Skip to 0:30
If that doesn't take incredible skill and precision I don't know what does.

haha put me on the spot why don't ya VJ cheers for asking

Basically I chose a dissertation topic that has now amalgamated into "preventative measures to combat doping in cycling" although I haven't gone down the physiological route too much as thats a whole different kettle of fish.
My knowledge of cycling then (october) compared to now (other sports to in regards to drugs) well its polar opposites. (CHEESE ALERT) I was blind but now I see

I have this feverish passion churning away inside of me to uncover more but as you say we know nothing.
I think that crazy aussie guy on youtube (videos i posted) summed it up well.
"Everyone knows whats going on, the athletes do, the coaches do, the authorities and drug testers do BUT NOT THE SPECTATORS ." This is so true. We are also to blame. We are disappointed if WR's aren't broken, if nobody attacks on a mountain climb etc. The public is oblivious to it and yet craves it with an insatiable desire which does not help at all.
The omerta, imo, is everywhere it is just now under a more sophisticated guise, a war that can never be won, but we are going about it the wrong way.

You are the expert here VJ haha. Yes I suspect djoko of doping and 2bh his rant about LA made me think he was even more so and it infuriated me.

For me at times I just thought djoko didn't look natural, like his eyes were leaping out of his head.
I thought HGH (with insulin) may be used (very common in cycling) to aid the recovery time. I doubt it could be these but I think you could consider dianobol, andriol or even anavar?
Maybe stanozol as that builds strength and muscle mass with minimal bulk development, but I am less sure on that one, probs wrong.

Why could djoko not be on epo VJ? Didn't he have a blood clot or something in his back?
I do not buy this diet thing at all. Marginal gains not mammoth like gains.
Again the problem is that there is not much published work/findings on athletes to see their capabilities and then with drug enhancement.
There is just so much we don't know and I want to find out.

I have been offered some work experience at the independent in the summer and I want to do some digging!

Larry Ellison wrote:Tenez- before you quickly dismiss Nadal as a player with no shotmaking ability who just relies on 'moonballing'- have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvJ2AhXLU6g
The rally is at 00:37.
Pause at 1:09 to see the Hawekeye projectory.
How many players can do that? Have you paused it at 1:09? Show me a clip of someone else, including this generation with the same rackets etc., who can do that. Go on.

That kind of shots is exactly why I think he is a doper. If you look at it, he generates all his power solely from his arm . He is not balanced on the shot, he doesn;t put his body weight through the shot but simply through his huge arm with quick racquet speed at a time the ball's pace drops (he is far back and on the trameline) and is therefore easier to time and has to compensate for that with added power. His trajectory is spinny clears nicely the net and the baseline. With todays' strings that's not difficult to do at all, especially for someone who has been hitting the ball since childhood. What is amazing is that he is on the ball but more so that he can generate that much pace with him arm alone and not technically, just sheer power.

Any other example?

Anyone could do it, you're right Tenez.
We see shots like that every day.

It must be due to his muscles, that's why bodybuilders are famous for their topspin.

Larry Ellison wrote:It must be due to his muscles, that's why bodybuilders are famous for their topspin.

Indeed muscles. I woudl have been more impressed had his shot been lower to the net and deeper which he would have had to play had he used nat gut.

But at the end of the of day it 's not that shot that wins him the match, it;s teh UEs from his opponents. Will you ever understand that simple but basic fact?

I don't like to comment on things I don't know much about and when it comes to doping I know virtually nothing.
I have never doped (that's if you don't count 5 -6 coffees a day doping ) , so I usually try and make observations comparing my own experience.

I consider myself reasonably fit and if I would to compare myself to today's players I would have think they are either all doped or have enormous lungs (and I have a decent lungs capacity myself from swimming). They all look like a different race I can't relate to in any way.

I don't know what drugs can do, but have always assumed they give you extra strength (if you are on steroids). EPO is a bit less straightforward and obvious on the naked eye, but seems to be what athletes today scatter over their cereal instead of blueberries these days.

What is a dead giveaway for my untrained eyes is when a player does not even run out of breath after a long rally, and I was staggered to notice that with Haas last week.

Tenez, show me an example of another player playing that kind of shot, with these rackets.

that's if you don't count 5 -6 coffees a day doping

haha im sorry but according to the wada code, that is a banned substance ergo a sanction of up to 6 months.
Now in that time you think long and hard about what you did.

Larry Ellison wrote:Tenez, show me an example of another player playing that kind of shot, with these rackets.

There are plenty of shots like that played in a season. Some much more impressive. Just have to look on the side though as most players are RHed. However, not many can pull those shots beng badly positioned cause not many if none have just a powerful arm.

Can you at least see how bad his body positioning is? Can you see this is a sheer power shot with horrible technique. Any other player woudl have had to throw his arm, hit flatter, much lower to the net to generate enough power to get over teh net but Nadal simply send his arm with top spin and gets the pace of a perfectly positioned player.

THat is the weird thing you don't understand and do not want to know nor adknowledge.

Larry Ellison wrote:Tenez, show me an example of another player playing that kind of shot, with these rackets.

Larry, I think the best way for you to see the enormity of Nadal's shot-making talent would be to give him the racquet Borg played with. You could organise that as a kind of Kids Day next year at IW, couldn't you. It's guaranteed to be a good laugh! ?
I would really like to see that. Doesn't have to be on grass, either. Clay would be fine.

Tenez wrote:

Larry Ellison wrote:.

There are plenty of shots like that played in a season. Some much more impressive. Just have to look on the side though as most players are RHed.
Can you see this is a sheer power shot with horrible technique.

LOL.
Go on then show me a shot like this.

NITB, everyone these days has access to the same rackets.

luvsports! wrote:

that's if you don't count 5 -6 coffees a day doping

haha im sorry but according to the wada code, that is a banned substance ergo a sanction of up to 6 months.
Now in that time you think long and hard about what you did.

What about the Laura Trott question and her average 1100 watts ?

Here's a question:

how many clean gold medals have we seen in London 2012?

Larry Ellison wrote:Go on then show me a shot like this.

You have so many I don;t know where to start. Google DTL tennis shots. I have done many as well. Certainly not as curvy but curvy enough to take them out and in teh court. The difference is I can't pull those not putting my weight into the ball. I need to better placed. I realise you don;t play tennis. The curve itself is impressibve for 2 reasons:

1 - Sheer power

2 - Sheer power from a horrible technique.

Remember when Nadal has lost so much muscle weight in Fall 2009? his shots coudl hardly cross the net.

Here is another one. You see the ball clearly going outside and curving in on the line. Federer does it taking more risk on the below shot. But because you are a fan you hold to his good shot like no other, especially since most of his wins come from his opponent's UEs.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS7PHX955tU

I have done many as well.

LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS7PHX955tU

That's a great shot from Federer.

Larry Ellison wrote:

I have done many as well.

LOL

Yes you can laugh but at table tennis the curve is even more impressive than this one as the racquet speed is much easier to generate (lighter and grippier bats than tennis racquet and strings).

Clearly you don;t play the game. This shots used to be really tough to execute with nat gut but with todays strings they are nothing special. As I said you can find tons on the net.

Wake up Larry, you are too much of a fan to be objective. You are not bringing anything new on this forum.

I don;t like creating threads specifically on suspecting players. I believe 95% (more or less) of them do take some PE substances so there is no point getting a thread for all players and singling them out. I never created a thread asking people whether they think Nadal dope or not.

I am happy to discuss some details about it but frankly I do not see the point of such thread.

noleisthebest wrote:Here's a question:

how many clean gold medals have we seen in London 2012?

wow that is a tough question, I don't think many at all from cycling, athletics or physical events.