ATP Masters 1000: SHANGHAI, THE FINAL

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:Tsonga?
btw You've edited out the final bit of my comment- my main point about Djokovic.

You simply play the tennis that best suits your talent ...or lungs.

Then why is it gutsy?
We've discussed this with the Karlovic case.
He has to play risky attacking tennis, as he simply doesn't have the ability or movement to rally. So he has to play a certain style of tennis.
He could be a coward, be petrified out on court for all we know, but common sense tells him he must play attacking tennis.
How does that make him gutsy?

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:[Djokovic plays high risk tennis in the crucial moments, which I think takes incredible guts.
And match point down Djokovic has potentially everything to lose.

What was crucial for Djoko was to hold his serve at 5 all 40/0 in that first set. It was also crucial to win break at 5/6 down not to be a set down. It was crucial not to lose his serve in the second set. In a tennis match unless you are 7/5 5/4 30/0 everything prior is crucial!

Yes but in any close game, the most crucial moments are when you are about to win/lose a match.

Amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:[Djokovic plays high risk tennis in the crucial moments, which I think takes incredible guts.
And match point down Djokovic has potentially everything to lose.

What was crucial for Djoko was to hold his serve at 5 all 40/0 in that first set. It was also crucial to win break at 5/6 down not to be a set down. It was crucial not to lose his serve in the second set. In a tennis match unless you are 7/5 5/4 30/0 everything prior is crucial!

Yes but in any close game, the most crucial moments are when you are about to win/lose a match.

The TB in the second set was crucial! Did Djoko played another hotdog there?

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:[Djokovic plays high risk tennis in the crucial moments, which I think takes incredible guts.
And match point down Djokovic has potentially everything to lose.

What was crucial for Djoko was to hold his serve at 5 all 40/0 in that first set. It was also crucial to win break at 5/6 down not to be a set down. It was crucial not to lose his serve in the second set. In a tennis match unless you are 7/5 5/4 30/0 everything prior is crucial!

Yes but in any close game, the most crucial moments are when you are about to win/lose a match.

The TB in the second set was crucial! Did Djoko played another hotdog there?

He was never lobbed, so he couldn't.
He did however, in the biggest moments, move forward.
I remember 2 match points against him on his serve, both of them he landed big serves followed by a killer forehand.

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:

sphairistike wrote:

Says the gutsy poster...

Defending Nadal, and always going against the crowd, on this Nadal-hating Federer fan club, does that count as gutsy? :laugh

That's not gutsy, it masochism!

If only Nadal was aware of you heroic efforts here Amri....we've got to do something about it!

Congratulation to Nole, this win was very important for his confidence and helps him a lot . Interisting discussion about how gutsy players are. I was thinking about Nole´s fluctuations in his game and tried to find a reason for his collapses in situation when he should easily grasp the game. Although he relies on his stamina and all court pushing tennis when the match is in a break point he tries to think of something special, which cost him focus and gets himself into difficult situation. You can see when Nole is leading he tries going to the net and play more technical points. But when he is not successful then his game is a kind of scattered and he looses his focus. Afterwards he looses his confidence and shows frustrations. Quite funny and admirable is that he can dig himself out and turn over nearly lost matches. Last year when he steamrolled Nadal he just did it without thinkinkg of something special. This year he wants to play like a dominator and this does not have to pay off sometimes.

He should show higher aggresivity in match´s moments when he can easily finish it. That is what Roger does and makes him awful when he is on the winning wave. Nole wants to show something additional and entertain audience, but that is very tricky.

Andy improved his movements very visibly, he stands closer to the baseline and hardly ever is missfooted when hitting the ball. His positioning reminds me Agassi. What is more Andy´s face shows such tension which I have never seen. God takes care of him

These two are real tennis gladiators at the present. Organizers should do something to speed up the conditions in GS (at least harder balls), otherwise both will play golf in future soon

Paul,

long time no hear! Have you had any bad dreams or what?

Good analysis of Nole's motives and love for showing-off and pleasing the crowd, I bet it drives poor Vajda crazy, but I love him for that, he is suh a playful pup

Congrats to Nole, it is a good win for him and while he has won many more important titles in the past I think this one is fairly important. It shows he is very much in the mix (funny we even have to worry about it given he will almost certainly reclaim #1 spot soon). We could have some interesting battles for the #1 spot early in 2013.

Something lovely to remember Shanghai Masters 2012 by:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNi9RSxicJA

summerblues wrote:Congrats to Nole, it is a good win for him and while he has won many more important titles in the past I think this one is fairly important. It shows he is very much in the mix (funny we even have to worry about it given he will almost certainly reclaim #1 spot soon). We could have some interesting battles for the #1 spot early in 2013.

So when are we going to see the Points Spy SB, you did promise a while ago!

Also, silly me. Here I am thinking the match is starting 4:30am, I do not want to get up for that. Should have realized I could have set my alarm clock for 6am and still see the bulk of it. As it is I woke up when it was 4:3 in the third, so did not even attempt to watch any of it.

noleisthebest wrote:So when are we going to see the Points Spy SB, you did promise a while ago!

Oops.

I suppose I should learn how to make tables on here. One of these days, I am sure I will get around to it...

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:

laverfan wrote:Djokovic saved MPs. Murray let this slip through.

Longest ATP final this year.

PS: Congrats to both.

There you are with your wooden spoon again Laverfan

I am expecting a seven-hour slug-fest at AO 2013. (3 hours 21 minutes for 232 points - Average 1.15 pts/minute, 5 hours 53 minutes for 369 points AO 2012 final - Average 1.04 pts/minute).

@Veejay - Slams are now approaching TdF, so I expect 'doping' to rise like Cycling. . THASP will be very busy in the coming years. You may want to consider donating so they can have enough resources to store all that is available currently on their web-site.

Whatever kind of cake youre mixing Laverfan-keep stirring cause theres no air on your planet
And forget about THASP Laverfan,Veejay is the new news on the block

It looks like many of you also missed portions of the match. From what you guys have seen, how was Murray's play? Was he more defensive than Nole (like most of you say he usually is) or were they sort of in the same ballpark (how I think they are these days)?

summerblues wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:So when are we going to see the Points Spy SB, you did promise a while ago!

Oops.

I suppose I should learn how to make tables on here. One of these days, I am sure I will get around to it...

LF is an expert on all things tables, polls etc!

noleisthebest wrote:Paul,

long time no hear! Have you had any bad dreams or what?

Good analysis of Nole's motives and love for showing-off and pleasing the crowd, I bet it drives poor Vajda crazy, but I love him for that, he is suh a playful pup

Hello Nitb, that is right. I have been thinking about Nole´s lack of aggresivity since USO

Last weeks quite busy at work, we have the year-end closing, some work trainings and in addition a flat redecoration.

And once when I wanted to write here I saw one topic , which discouraged me to write something. But now after Shaaanghaaaai, it is healed

paulcz wrote:

Hello Nitb, that is right. I have been thinking about Nole´s lack of aggresivity since USO

Last weeks quite busy at work, we have the year-end closing, some work trainings and in addition a flat redecoration.

And once when I wanted to write here I saw one topic , which discouraged me to write something. But now after Shaaanghaaaai, it is healed

I thought Nole looked very good since USO, and is getting back to his old self very fast. Did you notice his slight service motion change?
Flat redecoration....he,he, that brings some sweet memories from 2008 when Nole won hist first slam in Australia. It was freezing here, and we had the new roof put on on that day, the guys were banging those wooden beams in so hard, but I was louder than them with my cheering, oh, I was soooo deliriously happy
I wonder what they were thinking....
Anyway, you must not get discouraged by anything written here Paul, you've got to show the gutsy spirit , you know that one: what doesn't kill you....

But waht is really strange is that "one centimeter" as Murray says and then it's a narly unexplicable straight set loss to Murray cause he simply threw the first set away.

Very weird to analyse those matches except that it's again a 3h30mn for a 3 setter and that clearly shows those 2 have such defensive skils, it's not worth going for winners!

Tenez wrote:But waht is really strange is that "one centimeter" as Murray says and then it's a narly unexplicable straight set loss to Murray cause he simply threw the first set away.

Very weird to analyse those matches except that it's again a 3h30mn for a 3 setter and that clearly shows those 2 have such defensive skils, it's not worth going for winners!

All players have inexplicable moments. Federer and his 3 double faults yesterday, for example, or the way he didn't serve out the match or set (can't remember now) agaist Wawrinka.

But I am not trying to compare Djoko and Federer. I think yesterday it was simply a straight loss for Fed, there is not much worth talking about, especially as I have not seen a point of that final.

What I am saying is that there is no conclusion we can draw from that final bar the fact Djoko was lucky, Murray unlucky, Djoko threw that first set away, Murray, obviously, the second.

Tenez wrote:But I am not trying to compare Djoko and Federer. I think yesterday it was simply a straight loss for Fed, there is not much worth talking about, especially as I have not seen a point of that final.

What I am saying is that there is no conclusion we can draw from that final bar the fact Djoko was lucky, Murray unlucky, Djoko threw that first set away, Murray, obviously, the second.

Well, you know my view on luck, but even when I look at it from your point of view, I find it hard to dismiss a win or loss in that way, although I can see how others don't.
If you look at that link I posted with 10 hotshots of the tournament a few posts before this one, there is a point with Murray vs Federer in which Murray plays the most stupid shot on earth at the net sending the ball back to Fed instead of putting it away cross-court.
That is his trademark way of losing (although he did win that match). He just lacks the clarity of thought and he's been always like that. I remember almost the same point at a crucial part of the first set in the AO final in 2011 when Nole obliterated him in 3 sets.
Now these points are not flashy so people don't remember them , but those are the points with which matches are lost or won, not the "centimetre" in shots Nole or somebody else may have.
But it's always easier to compartmentalise a loss by blaming it on somebody else's luck, of course.

Tenez wrote:But I am not trying to compare Djoko and Federer. I think yesterday it was simply a straight loss for Fed, there is not much worth talking about, especially as I have not seen a point of that final.

What I am saying is that there is no conclusion we can draw from that final bar the fact Djoko was lucky, Murray unlucky, Djoko threw that first set away, Murray, obviously, the second.

Hi Ten, conclusion is that these two play the best all cout tennis today on middle fast hard courts, they are best returners and athletes. They try to dictate shots, no moonballing. I have read Berd´s interview after Nole´s win and he really said Nole outplayed me very clearly, he did not give me a chance. Berd is always one, who tries to go for winners, but Nole dismantled him. Nole played much more winners than Berd. I see that their matches are making them better and better. It is a nearly impossible to play clear winner from the baseline with such a ball pace they play. I felt that Fed got frustrated that he hit the wall. If you do not have a stamina you are finished off here. It looks that these two will take many hard hard courts wins for a couple years if they stay on their legs.

noleisthebest wrote:

paulcz wrote:

Hello Nitb, that is right. I have been thinking about Nole´s lack of aggresivity since USO

Last weeks quite busy at work, we have the year-end closing, some work trainings and in addition a flat redecoration.

And once when I wanted to write here I saw one topic , which discouraged me to write something. But now after Shaaanghaaaai, it is healed

I thought Nole looked very good since USO, and is getting back to his old self very fast. Did you notice his slight service motion change?
Flat redecoration....he,he, that brings some sweet memories from 2008 when Nole won hist first slam in Australia. It was freezing here, and we had the new roof put on on that day, the guys were banging those wooden beams in so hard, but I was louder than them with my cheering, oh, I was soooo deliriously happy
I wonder what they were thinking....
Anyway, you must not get discouraged by anything written here Paul, you've got to show the gutsy spirit , you know that one: what doesn't kill you....

You are right, Nole looks very good at the moment. I noticed that Nole went more flatter into some first services and maybe a ball goes a little bit further from him when he throws a ball. It is not that bad with that discouragement and as you say I have survived

paulcz wrote:
I
You are right, Nole looks very good at the moment. I noticed that Nole went more flatter into some first services and maybe a ball goes a little bit further from him when he throws a ball. It is not that bad with that discouragement and as you say I have survived

Good!
We Nole fans are so rare, we are need to be protected species

noleisthebest wrote:

paulcz wrote:
I
You are right, Nole looks very good at the moment. I noticed that Nole went more flatter into some first services and maybe a ball goes a little bit further from him when he throws a ball. It is not that bad with that discouragement and as you say I have survived

Good!
We Nole fans are so rare, we are need to be protected species

That is right, UNESCO should help us a little bit sometimes

noleisthebest wrote:

I thought Nole looked very good since USO, and is getting back to his old self very fast. Did you notice his slight service motion change?

What have you found out in Nole´s serve motion change, is the change in the loop swing or body twist?

paulcz wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

I thought Nole looked very good since USO, and is getting back to his old self very fast. Did you notice his slight service motion change?

What have you found out in Nole´s serve motion change, is the change in the loop swing or body twist?

A bit of both, but not all the time, he did it more in earlier rounds.I think he must be tossing the ball a bit further in front and shorter and lunging himself more into the shot. The swing looks less laboured.

noleisthebest wrote:If you look at that link I posted with 10 hotshots of the tournament a few posts before this one, there is a point with Murray vs Federer in which Murray plays the most stupid shot on earth at the net sending the ball back to Fed instead of putting it away cross-court. He just lacks the clarity of thought and he's been always like that.

Is that the break point saved by Fed in that first game, 2nd set? If so I disagree that was a lack of clarity of thought cause maybe any other player would have ran cross court to get to the ball. It just happened that on that occasion Fed anticipated well. There is not much we can draw from such points. In fact Federer makes plenty of wrong decisions like that trying to wrong foot his opponent and he ends up losing the point. Yet it hasn;t prevented him from winning a few slams.

...but those are the points with which matches are lost or won, not the "centimetre" in shots Nole or somebody else may have.

DIsagree again. Those "decisions" and clarity of mind did not prevent Murray to get to MPs, 5 of them, and yes, it's a centimeter there and then that really balanced the match the other way. I also think that Djoko is a slightly better player and should not have put himself in that position but there he was simply at the mercy of Murray going for an ace or simply a winner.....instead the first serve or the FH/BH was 1cm out. THat is what turned the match around, and this is why I say Djoko was vry lucky actually. When both athletes work very hard and fight for every point then luck plays a big factors.

But it's always easier to compartmentalise a loss by blaming it on somebody else's luck, of course.

Well it's actually easier for fans to overlook the luck factor and see reasons why on won and the other lost whn frankly it was paper thin and the gust of win (or lack off) may have turned the match around.

There are many matches where luck hardly plays a role, but today it was certainly not the case.

paulcz wrote:

Tenez wrote:But I am not trying to compare Djoko and Federer. I think yesterday it was simply a straight loss for Fed, there is not much worth talking about, especially as I have not seen a point of that final.

What I am saying is that there is no conclusion we can draw from that final bar the fact Djoko was lucky, Murray unlucky, Djoko threw that first set away, Murray, obviously, the second.

Hi Ten, conclusion is that these two play the best all cout tennis today on middle fast hard courts, they are best returners and athletes. They try to dictate shots, no moonballing. I have read Berd´s interview after Nole´s win and he really said Nole outplayed me very clearly, he did not give me a chance. Berd is always one, who tries to go for winners, but Nole dismantled him. Nole played much more winners than Berd. I see that their matches are making them better and better. It is a nearly impossible to play clear winner from the baseline with such a ball pace they play. I felt that Fed got frustrated that he hit the wall. If you do not have a stamina you are finished off here. It looks that these two will take many hard hard courts wins for a couple years if they stay on their legs.

Hello Paul - Good to have you back.
Yes, I know they are the 2 fittest players out there and this is why they consistently end up in the business end of tournaments. But one, though they not moonball as such they still play very safe by muscling the ball (especially Murray) and they rarely go for lines. This is why their matches last for hours. It's not about winning or losing points at such it's about standing up at the end of a marathon.

However I do not think they will win everything for the next 2 years.
I think the ATP next year wants to enforce the 25s rule. That could make a difference. They may change the balls, courts, and thirdly, yes, I believe th youngsters are on thir way. Let's not forget that Murray lost last week again v still young Rao.

Tenez wrote:Well it's actually easier for fans to overlook the luck factor and see reasons why on won and the other lost whn frankly it was paper thin and the gust of win (or lack off) may have turned the match around.

Could not agree more. We (as in people) have a very strong tendency to try to see reasons behind outcomes, and tend to assume luck away. Not only in sports, in everything.

Tenez wrote:
Hello Paul - Good to have you b.
Yes, I know they are the 2 fittest players out there and this is why they consistently end up in the business end of tournaments. But one, though they not moonball as such they still play very safe by muscling the ball (especially Murray) and they rarely go for lines. This is why their matches last for hours. It's not about winning or losing points at such it's about standing up at the end of a marathon.

However I do not think they will win everything for the next 2 years.
I think the ATP next year wants to enforce the 25s rule. That could make a difference. They may change the balls, courts, and thirdly, yes, I believe th youngsters are on thir way. Let's not forget that Murray lost last week again v still young Rao.

Thanks Ten. I would also appreciate shorter matches. On the other hand there is a much in the stake and both rely on their strength. You know, when you are succesful and it worked for you well, there is nothing to change it. A bit harder balls, or harder surface would be a cure for that, but I do not think that enforcing the time rule will change the game.

Raonic will step in the top10, but it is still long way to beat top4. Tennis does not go in right way since they slowed down the game. I see as best solution to use harder balls, it the fastest and the cheapest.

paulcz wrote:I see as best solution to use harder balls, it the fastest and the cheapest.

Exactly. I am surprise you say so. I am one of the few who says that's the best way (harder balls) to speed the gam and take away some of the spin which makes the shots too safe nowadays.

summerblues wrote:

Tenez wrote:Well it's actually easier for fans to overlook the luck factor and see reasons why on won and the other lost when frankly it was paper thin and the gust of win (or lack off) may have turned the match around.

Could not agree more. We (as in people) have a very strong tendency to try to see reasons behind outcomes, and tend to assume luck away. Not only in sports, in everything.

Yep. The role of the wind in that USO final or the rain break in that FO final may have played a significant role in the outcome. It coudl even be a bad night sleep sorting the final. I remember Goran having to pull out of one of the US TMS v Agassi in the final due to a stiff neck. He had slept with the window open and that was it...just to take an extreme case.

noleisthebest wrote:
LF is an expert on all things tables, polls etc!

SB... Standard HTML tags of [td] and [/td], [tr] and [/tr] and a [ table ] and [ /table ] tag to start and end a table. (Remove the space between tags, otherwise it makes my post look very strange).