Novak Djokovic: 2011 or 2015, Which One Is Better?

legendkillar wrote:
Like I said the competition this year has been really disappointing. I don't think Djokovic is a better player. I think for me being better or improving comes without losing something in return. For me Djokovic was much more consistent in his shot making in 2011. It's the one time I think he embraced a more aggressive mindset and game.

I haven't seen him use all the tools at his disposal this year and I question whether we would see them if he was pressured more.

In 2015, he has perfected his game to the level he doesn't even have to do any shot-making, that's the whole point.
His speed and conditions are allowing him to hit the ball harder than ever but - safely!

That is so important.

Now and then he goes for the line, but that's more a surprise factor. He can do it, but doesn't need to do it over and over under pressure. (Not even sure he even could, in fact. He did in his breakthrough year a bit.)

Why would he risk missing a BHDTL if he can send 5-6 mid-court or CC at your shoe-laces. And those balls he varies, but now ant then hits them very hard - that almost always gives him a short ball back he can then put away any way he likes, and he often comes to the net at that stage.
But that of course is not volleying tennis Federer plays.

It is easier to put away a drive volley from mid-court, or deflect it with a volley at the net like he does than a shot down the line winner from the base-line.

Even what looks a very "attacking" tennis in name only i.e. hitting a volley or being at the net really involves minimal risk for him most of the time - he is laughing!

Federer is the opposite.

Because he plays with one hand, he tires it twice as fast and can't afford all the extra shots in a rally Djokovic can, so he plays high-risk tennis.

Only Dolgo comes close.

Tenez wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eQM5PaQHb0

Is it worth arguing anylonger?

Wow!
I am tired just watching them slug & shovel. Amazing how long Nadal was able to bludgeon the ball in a rally when he was allowed to take as much time as he needed.

And that match was just an overture for the AO12 "finale".

Man...those were the dark ages.

It happened that in the 2 clips I have posted above, there are 2 rallies of 31 shots (2011) and 30 (2014). the USO 11 final rally is played in 44 sec while the USO 14 is played in 39s so roughly 10% faster!!!!!! Imagine if the rally at stopped for a full 4 secs ...that's exactly what Djoko and Murray coudl have done to keep up with 2011 final's pace!!!
But the most impressive difference, which also explains the difference in pace is the 2014 shots are of much better quality, more depth (balls closer to the baselines) hence more pace.

I am surprised your analogue senses let you down.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:
I haven't seen him use all the tools at his disposal this year and I question whether we would see them if he was pressured more.

You have not look at the 2014 USO 1/4F have you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptjrdaL1N5Y

Much better quality from both player than you would ever see in 2011. It's not close. But I know you are a nostalgic of the past.

Edberg had better volleys, pete was a better grass player, Guga had the best Bh on clay.....etc...etc....

This clip reminded me of Murray-Anderson USO15 match...just how well and almost flawlessly Kev had to play in order to beat Murray.

I was really impressed.

The level on tour has gone up considerably.
Net clearance is still safe, but much less loopy than before - resulting in longer and faster shots.
That was the key improvement Djokovic was able to make since 2011.

I noticed it first time in Wimbledon '14 against Tsonga, when I schmoozed in CC.

I couldn't believe how well he could time his FH, was easily matching Tsonga's FH bombs.
He was totally different against Berd in '13.

Many players have made obvious improvement in 2014, Stan was the most obvious.
Even Fed finally burnt the bridges with the old racquet.

yes. We hear how consistent was Djoko in 2011...but that consistency was simply due to much safer shots. The tour moved on and he would not get away with those safe shots anymore. Of course for the time no-one could play those long rallies and play more risky. But here you can see that just 3 years on....that's not much 3 years, and 2 players can play play those 30shot long rallies but at a considerably faster pace (running pace and pace of the ball), while taking more risk.

Again I am surprised some could not see it. As mentioned and proven so many times....the game moves on!

Although tennis is superior now, I think 2011 had a lot more drama, and that's what many people remember.

Of course, drama is guaranteed when Nadal is around.

His presence had this effect, pundits and commentators loved it.
And as you said, he brought the best out of everyone.

I suppose that can count as his contribution to tennis.

Who brings out the best out of Djokovic now when Nadal is out if the picture, unable to keep up with the game's evolution?

To nail the coffin on this one,

The USO11 final was played in 4h10, while the USO 14 1/4F was played in 3h33mn so 40mn faster despite having more games and more points. 56sec per point between nadal and Djoko and 44s per point between Djoko and Murray.

Had the 2011 match been of as many points as the 2014 match it woudl have taken another 16mn..so roughly nearly an hour more than the match between Murray and Djoko...and some are saying that covering the same distance with an hour to spare has no influence on Nadal's success since the introduction of the rule?

noleisthebest wrote:Although tennis is superior now, I think 2011 had a lot more drama, and that's what many people remember.

Of course, drama is guaranteed when Nadal is around.

His presence had this effect, pundits and commentators loved it.
And as you said, he brought the best out of everyone.

I suppose that can count as his contribution to tennis.

Who brings out the best out of Djokovic now when Nadal is out if the picture, unable to keep up with the game's evolution?

I think the main reason is people memorises what impresses them. So when Safin comes as a 20yo with his deadly DHBH it is going to leave imprints in people memory. If 5 years later everybody has Safin's DHBH, then no-one is going to pay attention but people will still remember Safin's first impressions, not noticing that Nalby or Murray have a much better BH by now....cause our eyes got used to "great DHBHs". Same with Pete's serve and so on.

Tenez wrote:To nail the coffin on this one,

The USO11 final was played in 4h10, while the USO 14 1/4F was played in 3h33mn so 40mn faster despite having more games and more points. 56sec per point between nadal and Djoko and 44s per point between Djoko and Murray.

Had the 2011 match been of as many points as the 2014 match it woudl have taken another 16mn..so roughly nearly an hour more than the match between Murray and Djoko...and some are saying that covering the same distance with an hour to spare has no influence on Nadal's success since the introduction of the rule?

That is one pretty impressive nail, T!

Tenez wrote:
I think the main reason is people memorises what impresses them. So when Safin comes as a 20yo with his deadly DHBH it is going to leave imprints in people memory. If 5 years later everybody has Safin's DHBH, then no-one is going to pay attention but people will still remember Safin's first impressions, not noticing that Nalby or Murray have a much better BH by now....cause our eyes got used to "great DHBHs". Same with Pete's serve and so on.

I thought about it yesterday, how imperceptibly those changes happen, you barely notice them watching matches almost every day...but when you see an "old" clip, even 3 years old, the difference is amazing.

I really don't know how they do it!

There are so many good players now. We have never had so many top 10 players play these small 250 tournaments, and now they are there every week: Berd, Stan, Ferrer, Cilic...
Nothing is left for young players to earn points, let alone money...they are lucky to make it to the main draw...even such a talent as Rubi can't get past R1 as a WC in his home country...
I feel sorry for them!

I would have liked some counter-argument there......have they deserted?

Tenez wrote:I would have liked some counter-argument there......have they deserted?

I think they've all capitulated!

Leonardo Mayer was asked to describe Federer, Djokovic and Nadal.

Federer : "Genius."

Djokovic: "it's hard for me to say genius, I've already used it for Federer. For Djokovic, I'd say 'robot', that's what he's like on the court. He plays the same all the time, he is devouring you until your head starts hurting.
Robot, but in a good way, I wish I was such a robot in tennis like Novak Against him, the ball is always coming back."

Nadal: "Gladiator. He is physically impressive."

http://www.b92.net/sport/tenis/vesti.php?yyyy=2015&mm=09&dd=30&nav_id=1045819

Excellent! Spot on!

Tenez wrote:Excellent! Spot on!

Yes, Genius, Robot and Gladiator!

What an era.

Djoko is certainly not as spent as he was in '11 but until US open win then, he had lost twice.
Nadal was a lot better then, feds fitter, murray probs better now. It's not that straight forward.

luvsports! wrote:Djoko is certainly not as spent as he was in '11 but until US open win then, he had lost twice.
Nadal was a lot better then, feds fitter, murray probs better now. It's not that straight forward.

Those are "relative" data! Concretely, it does not mean much. Nishi, Stan Kyrgios etc....are better now than then.

What we know however is that as clearly hgilighted by the 2 clips, the level of tennis seriously increased from 2011 to 2014. You can easily imagine that based on tempo of tennis in 2014 Djoko 2014 woudl have crushed nadal 2011.

If you look at Djoko and Murray in 2010/11 they were close to Nadal, Murray was losing but pretty close too. What we saw in 2015 is that Murray and Djoko seriously progressed since 2010/11...whereas Nadal much less. And because Murray and Djoko progressed, I am tempted to think that federer progressed too. Nadal however has not got a game enabling him to keep up with the faster pace played nowadays.

We need a Nadal fan who can explain his game progress from 2011-2015 here.

We've only heard how he's declined.

He tells us he worked hard like everyone else (and knowing him, probably harder than most!)

So far, it looks like he has not been able to do much about his unique ball-striking. The more he tries - the more obvious it is to everyone he is simply not able to take the ball early. Everybody else on tour can. Yet he's got 14 slams.

What brought him all the titles - is now failing him.  I find it fascinating.

He must be more frustrated than ever.

Yet, he keeps promising fans (and sponsors) he is coming back and believes he can win slams.

luvsports! wrote:Djoko is certainly not as spent as he was in '11 but until US open win then, he had lost twice.
Nadal was a lot better then, feds fitter, murray probs better now. It's not that straight forward.

What makes you say Nadal was A LOT better then?

You know my reasoning for his "decline".

I really think you have a biased view of Nadal. Players can get worse! I don;t think he's been overtaken with him playing better than ever!

luvsports! wrote:You know my reasoning for his "decline".

Yes, but I disagree.

You said you play the game yourself. I don't know how you strike your FH, but try an experiment and stand 4m behind the baseline and then hit the ball as hard as you possibly can.

It's going to go miles out. That's where the "super lifting spin" lasso comes in. Try it and see how much more energy it takes it out of you. Just in one rally. Than one game.

I assume you'll be dead if you get someone good to give you even simple, no brainer 10 shot CC practice rallies.

Then you'll see who is and who isn't clean in today's tennis.

Back to Nadal.
His bicep is the same if not bigger than ever. I paid attention during USO. He is as ready and as good as in 2009, 10, 11, 13..

Problem is, others have caught up. Look how easily Nole is cutting through everyone. He is virtually untouchable.
And it's not because Nadal is clean.

luvsports! wrote:I really think you have a biased view of Nadal. Players can get worse! I don;t think he's been overtaken with him playing better than ever!

I don't know anyone who is worse now than in 2011. No chance!

It's got nothing to do with whether I like or dislike Nadal.

Did you read that little interview from him I posted somewhere in this thread?

He is frustrated he can't progress but is working desperately hard to.  He is young and fit, hungry for winning and playing - far from any declining.
He knows everyone is moving away from him and of course he has zero confidence.

That is the only thing that has declined with Nadal.

Do you think Nole's tennis is better now or on 2011?
I'd appreciate it of you could try and explain why you think either way.

It's a nice debate we are all having here.
For me, it's really interesting to observe how the game is changing, and everyone adds something new.

I learn all the time.

Some of my old comments make me blush!

luvsports! wrote:I really think you have a biased view of Nadal. Players can get worse! I don;t think he's been overtaken with him playing better than ever!

Yes. Nadal can get worse, no doubt. But where I am consistent is that to me Nadal was always a strange player in the sense he has an excellent record yet I have always pointed that he struggled a lot more on his way to finals and titles than let's say Federer. That means his level was never clearly superior to the rest of the field but managed to win so many of those close matches by lasting longer (vPHM, Youzhny, Querrey, Preztchner, young Nishi, young Murray, young Tomic, and the list is very long) . This was clearly proven again when facing Djoko who did not have great weapons either but simply able to run with nadal.

Now I have shown something, I believe you had not noticed when comparing 2011 and 2014 (let alone 2015)...is that the game is now played faster, considerably faster. And this "faster" makes a huge difference considering that Nadal had many close matches already back then. Nadal is only one player of the ATP, the tour is made of plenty more. Nadal was not troubling Djoko in 2011 so Nadal is a very bad benchmark for comparing Djoko in 2015.

noleisthebest wrote:

luvsports! wrote:I really think you have a biased view of Nadal. Players can get worse! I don;t think he's been overtaken with him playing better than ever!

I don't know anyone who is worse now than in 2011. No chance!

So Nadal is better now than 2011?  Federer is better now than 2011? Nadal for the first time since he started winning slams has ended a season with zero and that's not being worse than 2011?  He's had a disaster of a season (even on clay!) and IS playing worse.  That isn't an opinion.

The reason you "don't know" is because you continually put your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept anything other than the opinion you want to be true - and the opinion of Tenez.

FedererKing wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

luvsports! wrote:I really think you have a biased view of Nadal. Players can get worse! I don;t think he's been overtaken with him playing better than ever!

I don't know anyone who is worse now than in 2011. No chance!

So Nadal is better now than 2011?  Federer is better now than 2011? Nadal for the first time since he started winning slams has ended a season with zero and that's not being worse than 2011?  He's had a disaster of a season (even on clay!) and IS playing worse.  That isn't an opinion.

The reason you "don't know" is because you continually put your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept anything other than the opinion you want to be true - and the opinion of Tenez.

Of course he has had a "disaster" of a season, though he is still in top 8...
But that doesn't mean he is a worse player or has declined.

Federer had a horrible 2013, he was injured. And look at him now!

Nadal isn't injured, he is as fit as ever.

You don't seem to want to see/acknowledge that tennis is not pure track and field athletics where it's all down to your own effort (only just!).
A little bit still does depend on the opponent...

Again, we are talking about the game of tennis, not agreeing or disagreeing , needing  to be right or wrong.

Just trying to understand the game and why it's looking like it is at the moment.

And at the moment, it's in an interesting place where we have an extremely dominant player.

First it was Federer, then Nadal and now it's Djokovic. Appropriately according to their age.

Don't you find it fascinating how differently they dominated and how they have been relating to each other tennis-wise over the years, including now?

Personally, I am not bothered with Nadal any more, I think he is done, but not because he has declined - he is simply unable to improve any further.

But everyone else is: Federer, Djokovic, Murray...young players are coming, too.

What I find strange is that you can't see those improvements.

FedererKing wrote:The reason you "don't know" is because you continually put your fingers in your ears and refuse to accept anything other than the opinion you want to be true - and the opinion of Tenez.

Strange. Exactly the impression I had of you. Are you denying that rallies between Murray and Djoko in 2014 were considerably faster than the 2011 USO final one? Now tell me.....had you noticed it with your "great" naked eye? cause I have not read you mentioning if before.
What if Djoko had 10% extra time to play in 2011? What would the score had been v Nadal? ...and thus taking 20% less time per point? You seem to be in denial of real stat values...which are much more telling than what you think of how bad or good a player may look...to you.

What is interesting is that according to LK (or Murray himself), Murray has been trying to lose some weight and clearly nadal may have lost some too.

The reason is obvious, none of them coudl compete with Djoko over the distance. Already in 2011 Nadal completely ran out of steam in bof3 like IW final, and all other B0f3 they played and only managed to grab a set in the Wimbledon and USO final thanks to Djoko usual drop of form. After the USO 2011, Nadal had absolutely nothing to give the 4th set (same for Wimbledon for that matter).

So it is clear now that they are again trying to get fitter the slimmer way and the only way to compensate of that loss of muscle and power is to develop more aggressive shots, taking the ball earlier and so on.....something Murray has been able to do a bit better than Nadal so far.

But if Nadal wants to get passed Djoko, he has no choice but to last longer...and hit flatter shots to save energy.

All the close matches nadal had back in his hey days, would be losses today had he not tried to change his game....in fact this is what is happening.

noleisthebest wrote:

luvsports! wrote:You know my reasoning for his "decline".

Yes, but I disagree.

You said you play the game yourself. I don't know how you strike your FH, but try an experiment and stand 4m behind the baseline and then hit the ball as hard as you possibly can.

It's going to go miles out. That's where the "super lifting spin" lasso comes in. Try it and see how much more energy it takes it out of you. Just in one rally. Than one game.

I assume you'll be dead if you get someone good to give you even simple, no brainer 10 shot CC practice rallies.

Then you'll see who is and who isn't clean in today's tennis.

Back to Nadal.
His bicep is the same if not bigger than ever. I paid attention during USO. He is as ready and as good as in 2009, 10, 11, 13..

Problem is, others have caught up. Look how easily Nole is cutting through everyone. He is virtually untouchable.
And it's not because Nadal is clean.

Nadal's depth is poor. The worst I have ever seen it. His shots sit up for there to be whacked. We are seeing completely different things. He looked tired in the third set vs Novak at the FO who looked fresh as a daisy. 

I disagree with you. Impasse it seems.

Nadal's depth is normally short when he's losing confidence, follow his career and even when he is younger anyone can notice that.
And I'm not sure why you're extrapolating from that one set against Djokovic in the French Open so much. He played poorly in that match, but he played as badly as he did in the 3rd set as he did in the first 4 games (where he lost the first 4 games). His stamina in general was ok, in the 5 setter against Fognini, Nadal's best set easily came in the 5th.

Nadal's problem has been making more mistakes on the forehand, and I also suspect he's a bit slower which affects him as he gets older.

luvsports! wrote:
Nadal's depth is poor. The worst I have ever seen it. His shots sit up for there to be whacked. We are seeing completely different things. He looked tired in the third set vs Novak at the FO who looked fresh as a daisy. 

I disagree with you. Impasse it seems.

I think we can agree that his game is not fluent as before. But we seem to differ on the reason.

You think it's because he's clean and I think it's because he doesn't have enough time to load his shots with that exceptional spin any more.

He is not physically slower, he is just getting less time as other players have improved hitting the ball harder and faster.
Forget about Djokovic - look at Murray! Compare his FH now and 3-4 years ago. Not only is he hitting it harder but aiming for the CC corners, as well.

Nadal did not have to deal with that kind of shots in the past, so when they come to him now he has to deal with them in the shorter space of time and that's tough for him...hence lower confidence.
His main (and probably only) weapon has been weakened like that.
Instead of dominating, he is now trying to just stay in the rally.

It's not easy to play in this era at all. Even players like Kuku can cause trouble now. There is no easy round more or less.

All players improve. That's their job.
What do they do every day?
They practise hitting new shots and master existing ones. How do they master CC FH for example?
They hit hundreds of them closer to the line and harder, i.e. faster. Then they try to bring those improvements to actual matches which also takes time and confidence.

That is why Stan plays so much better now compared to 2011 or before.

He is just timing the ball so much better and gaining confidence from it.

Many players are good in practice but it takes them longer to bring it to matches. It's a long and painful/patient process.
You also need a bit of luck as matches now often turn on a few points, that's how good everyone is.

We need to acknowledge it, not just dismiss with how much they are winning or losing.

To add to the above, ATP have putting their foot down with time between the points.

That was like tightening the noose around Nadal's neck.

The oxygen he was sucking of others is now taken from him!

Why else would he go to such an extreme measure of removing one of the best umpires from his matches?
It was that serious!

Tenez wrote:What is interesting is that according to LK (or Murray himself), Murray has been trying to lose some weight and clearly nadal may have lost some too.

The reason is obvious, none of them coudl compete with Djoko over the distance. Already in 2011 Nadal completely ran out of steam in bof3 like IW final, and all other B0f3 they played and only managed to grab a set in the Wimbledon and USO final thanks to Djoko usual drop of form. After the USO 2011, Nadal had absolutely nothing to give the 4th set (same for Wimbledon for that matter).

So it is clear now that they are again trying to get fitter the slimmer way and the only way to compensate of that loss of muscle and power is to develop more aggressive shots, taking the ball earlier and so on.....something Murray has been able to do a bit better than Nadal so far.

But if Nadal wants to get passed Djoko, he has no choice but to last longer...and hit flatter shots to save energy.

All the close matches nadal had back in his hey days, would be losses today had he not tried to change his game....in fact this is what is happening.

Yes, that's a great observation.
Though, for Nadal it's going to be hard to strike the good loss of weight/power ratio unless he flattens his shots, and even then if he succeeds, which is a big if, his game will not be as "gutsy" as Ferrer's.

But he is a sly player and who knows what new medical improvements may bring in the next few years.

The best slog we saw this year was Murray-Djokovic RG SF.
Shame it went to two days so we could't see the full extent of their ability, esp with those balls.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Nadal's depth is normally short when he's losing confidence, follow his career and even when he is younger anyone can notice that.
And I'm not sure why you're extrapolating from that one set against Djokovic in the French Open so much. He played poorly in that match, but he played as badly as he did in the 3rd set as he did in the first 4 games (where he lost the first 4 games). His stamina in general was ok, in the 5 setter against Fognini, Nadal's best set easily came in the 5th. [/b]

Good observation, but what is the reason behind his loss of confidence?

I saw that match live and he was as good as ever in the first set, but Djokovic was so much better than before.
He is now physically stronger than ever.
If he was close to Nadal in 2006-10 when he was having respiratory problems and retiring from matches, how superior is he now?
Players know it and fear it. Just like they feared Nadal.
So if Nadal is facing a physically matching player - he will lose heart.

He even lost fight to fight in the last set, that's how bad it was.
But!!!

Imagine if he had an easier QF draw.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Nadal's problem has been making more mistakes on the forehand, and I also suspect he's a bit slower which affects him as he gets older.

I think mistakes on his FH now could be coming from him trying to flatten his shots.

As I mentioned in that longish post earlier, it takes time to bring your improved shots from practice onto a match court.

He may never be able to do it in fact.
But I am pretty sure he is able to get close in practice, which is why he is promising to his fans he'll win again.

He is a hard worker, I'll give  him that, it's a great quality.[/quote]

noleisthebest wrote:

luvsports! wrote:
Nadal's depth is poor. The worst I have ever seen it. His shots sit up for there to be whacked. We are seeing completely different things. He looked tired in the third set vs Novak at the FO who looked fresh as a daisy. 

I disagree with you. Impasse it seems.

I think we can agree that his game is not fluent as before. But we seem to differ on the reason.

You think it's because he's clean and I think it's because he doesn't have enough time to load his shots with that exceptional spin any more.

He is not physically slower, he is just getting less time as other players have improved hitting the ball harder and faster.
Forget about Djokovic - look at Murray! Compare his FH now and 3-4 years ago. Not only is he hitting it harder but aiming for the CC corners, as well.

Nadal did not have to deal with that kind of shots in the past, so when they come to him now he has to deal with them in the shorter space of time and that's tough for him...hence lower confidence.
His main (and probably only) weapon has been weakened like that.
Instead of dominating, he is now trying to just stay in the rally.

It's not easy to play in this era at all. Even players like Kuku can cause trouble now. There is no easy round more or less.

All players improve. That's their job.
What do they do every day?
They practise hitting new shots and master existing ones. How do they master CC FH for example?
They hit hundreds of them closer to the line and harder, i.e. faster. Then they try to bring those improvements to actual matches which also takes time and confidence.

That is why Stan plays so much better now compared to 2011 or before.

He is just timing the ball so much better and gaining confidence from it.

Many players are good in practice but it takes them longer to bring it to matches. It's a long and painful/patient process.
You also need a bit of luck as matches now often turn on a few points, that's how good everyone is.

We need to acknowledge it, not just dismiss with how much they are winning or losing.

Not necessarily completely clean, but not on the good gear that Djoko or Murray are on.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Nadal's depth is normally short when he's losing confidence, follow his career and even when he is younger anyone can notice that.
And I'm not sure why you're extrapolating from that one set against Djokovic in the French Open so much. He played poorly in that match, but he played as badly as he did in the 3rd set as he did in the first 4 games (where he lost the first 4 games). His stamina in general was ok, in the 5 setter against Fognini, Nadal's best set easily came in the 5th.

Nadal's problem has been making more mistakes on the forehand, and I also suspect he's a bit slower which affects him as he gets older.

Well I saw him looking tired in that set. This is a guy who could run forever in the final the year before.

That just isn't true nitb. You watch that first set, no way is he playing better than ever. 
2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmjRRhD4CRI
2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8i2E7OZOhI

Nadal hit's a pacier, deeper ball and covers the court better. Plain to see.

luvsports! wrote:That just isn't true nitb. You watch that first set, no way is he playing better than ever. 
2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmjRRhD4CRI
2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8i2E7OZOhI

Nadal hit's a pacier, deeper ball and covers the court better. Plain to see.

I saw both matches live. They were played in very different conditions.
The '14 was significantly warmer. I had to leave my seat after one set, that's how hot it was.
It was brutal.

Nole was sick during that match from dehydration. Even so, he had Nadal on the ropes in the 4th but was unlucky.

In '15, this was a QF, so Nole was much fresher than in the '14 final. The weather was warm, close to perfect.

So that was a big psychological advantage for him, he was also physically stronger. He's finally put on some muscle in his biceps/lats.
On top of that, Nadal got a time violation in the first set.

So, although relatively speaking Nadal plays worse in '15 RG QF, it's because Nole was stronger, fresher and better than in '14 RG F.
Those things do make a difference and can't be denied.

It's not like Nadal suddenly forgot how to play. He just wasn't given a chance to.

As for him being "partially" clean as you suggest, or on "less" juice...I don't know how that works tbh, that's your field.
I would like to learn...do they take several "things"?
And how does reduction of them individually affect performance?

All I know, there is no chance Nadal could play clean and remain in top 100. Of that I am positive.

luvsports! wrote:
Nadal's depth is poor. The worst I have ever seen it. His shots sit up for there to be whacked. We are seeing completely different things. He looked tired in the third set vs Novak at the FO who looked fresh as a daisy. 

I disagree with you. Impasse it seems.

I think Nadal's depth has always been rather short. That was never a problem in the past. Short spinny bounce meant max height on the baseline. What is missing however is the spin. I agree. No more zip. Why? I am not sure but regardless Nadal had no choice but to change his game if he wanted to get passed Djoko and new Murray.

So the only question mark I have is why was Nadal so successful in 2013? I think there it has a lot to do with Djoko being under par in many matches, including that FO final which should have been his and the complete collapse in the USO. So in my view Nadal 2013 glorifying year relies on 2 slams which frankly were not that convincing.

luvsports! wrote:Well I saw him looking tired in that set. This is a guy who could run forever in the final the year before.

I disagree with this. he was completely nackered in that 4th set of FO2014...Nadal had nothing left and he says so himself in the post match interview. he knew he had to finish it then. Same thing about 2013 FO when Nadal was up in the 4th but collapses in the 4th and 5th and woudl have lost on his knees if Djoko had not messed that smash.

So it is not as B&W as it seems.

I however agree about the lack of spin and this is why Fognini could time the ball well and move him around.

So in summary, stamina level is very difficult to gauge there as a few long rallies can completely change the dynamic, while power I agree he seems to have lost some. But is down to a plan to last longer or sponsors pressure. Frankly none of us can be sure of either.

Tenez wrote: So in my view Nadal 2013 glorifying year relies on 2 slams which frankly were not that convincing.

Yh true, if you take out his Slams and Masters as well it becomes even less convincing.

luvsports! wrote:That just isn't true nitb. You watch that first set, no way is he playing better than ever. 
2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmjRRhD4CRI
2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8i2E7OZOhI

Nadal hit's a pacier, deeper ball and covers the court better. Plain to see.

I think you are actually underestimating the improvement of Djoko this year. If you look at those first 4 games he was going broke and like in 2011 or 12 found himself well ahead in games...just that this year he seems to have less dips.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

Tenez wrote: So in my view Nadal 2013 glorifying year relies on 2 slams which frankly were not that convincing.

Yh true, if you take out his Slams and Masters as well it becomes even less convincing.

A typical nadal fan response. Overlooking that indeed the FO13 had a very strange outcome despite Djoko playing poorly and completely out of the match ended up having a virtual MP had he not rushed unecessarily to the net. So you may want to stick to results but this forum is to analyse results and you would have to be blind not to realise that Djoko lost that Slam instead of Nadal winning it.

For the USO is not as clear but also similar with Djoko not putting the accelerator as much as he did in the previous years and since.

Tenez wrote:

luvsports! wrote:That just isn't true nitb. You watch that first set, no way is he playing better than ever. 
2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmjRRhD4CRI
2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8i2E7OZOhI

Nadal hit's a pacier, deeper ball and covers the court better. Plain to see.

I think you are actually underestimating the improvement of Djoko this year. If you look at those first 4 games he was going broke and like in 2011 or 12 found himself well ahead in games...just that this year he seems to have less dips.

And having watched both clips now, its obvious that Djoko's shots were actually less powerful in 14 than 15. Djoko simply times the ball better in 2015.

Also at 3all in that FO14 clip Djoko leads 4/3 and 15/40...one point coudl have made it 5/3 serving for the set...My point here there is so little between Djoko winning that first set in 2015 61 or just about scrapping 75.

As much as I can see nadal not putting enough spin in USO15, I think he put as much as he can in FO 15...problems is that the ball comes back faster hence may have less time to charge th eball with spin .

Tenez wrote:

Tenez wrote:

luvsports! wrote:That just isn't true nitb. You watch that first set, no way is he playing better than ever. 
2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmjRRhD4CRI
2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8i2E7OZOhI

Nadal hit's a pacier, deeper ball and covers the court better. Plain to see.

I think you are actually underestimating the improvement of Djoko this year. If you look at those first 4 games he was going broke and like in 2011 or 12 found himself well ahead in games...just that this year he seems to have less dips.

And having watched both clips now, its obvious that Djoko's shots were actually less powerful in 14 than 15. Djoko simply times the ball better in 2015.

Also at 3all in that FO14 clip Djoko leads 4/3 and 15/40...one point coudl have made it 5/3 serving for the set...My point here there is so little between Djoko winning that first set in 2015 61 or just about scrapping 75.

As much as I can see nadal not putting enough spin in USO15, I think he put as much as he can in FO 15...problems is that the ball comes back faster hence may have less time to charge th eball with spin .

Yes, the '14 was much closer than people recall it.
I remember that very point you mention...it was such a crucial game, they were both exhausted, I was cheering for Nole, telling him to move Nadal around (the vamos-tamos! tacticis )
I am sure Nole would've won had the match gone to the 5th.

But it was not meant to be, Nadal was lucky again. Not as blatantly as before, though (the net touch etc).

Just like when Federer missed some of those easy FHs on BPs against Nole in USO final.

Tenez wrote:

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

Tenez wrote: So in my view Nadal 2013 glorifying year relies on 2 slams which frankly were not that convincing.

Yh true, if you take out his Slams and Masters as well it becomes even less convincing.

A typical nadal fan response. Overlooking that indeed the FO13 had a very strange outcome despite Djoko playing poorly and completely out of the match ended up having a virtual MP had he not rushed unecessarily to the net. So you may want to stick to results but this forum is to analyse results and you would have to be blind not to realise that Djoko lost that Slam instead of Nadal winning it.

For the USO is not as clear but also similar with Djoko not putting the accelerator as much as he did in the previous years and since.

Oh please, this is such poor analysis even for your biased standards.

Djokovic played well in French Open 2013, and it was a great match- Nadal could have won in 4 if he hadn't missed the easy forehand while serving for the match, but also Djokovic could have won if not for the net touch in 5th set. Just like Nadal could have won AO 2012 if not for the silly backhand error in the 5th set while a break up. That's how 5 set thrillers in tennis are, topsy turvy.
As for USO 2013, in the 3rd set in the final you said 'this match is over'- I remember it, you called the match for Djokovic in the third set. How did that turn out ?
And those 2 Slams were not Nadal's only good results, he also played very well in the Masters events.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Oh please, this is such poor analysis even for your biased standards.

Djokovic played well in French Open 2013, and it was a great match- Nadal could have won in 4 if he hadn't missed the easy forehand while serving for the match, but also Djokovic could have won if not for the net touch in 5th set.

Don't say it is a poor analysis just to say exactly what I am saying. because that makes you a very poor analyst too. What I (we should I say) am saying is that the dominance of Nadal in that FO13 is far from obvious....despite being teh winner. Djoko played terribly yet finds himself with an easy point for double break in the fifth....and yes with Djoko playing so badly (will you deny that?) Nadal should have closed it in 4....if not 3.

As for USO 2013, in the 3rd set in the final you said 'this match is over'- I remember it, you called the match for Djokovic in the third set. How did that turn out ?

Yes it was DJoko who collapsed out of the blue.

And those 2 Slams were not Nadal's only good results, he also played very well in the Masters events.

But very close again. Djoko was certainly not that good or confident that year. It's pretty obvious.

Well, okay, we're all in agreement. Nadal is not playing worse at all. Players are just better than ever. I expect by 2030 we will see players using nitro charged racquets and jetpacks. That seems to be the progression of skill we can extrapolate from Tenez's and NITB's theory.

In truth, the stats don't lie. Nor do the ranking points. Where is Nadal in the rankings this year? His worst ever since rising to the top. He will likely also have his worst year end finish to go with it. So how can he be so low down the rankings without having played worse than 2011 or even 2013-2014? Have all the players "caught up" in like a year or two? David Ferrer as well... just playing better, I guess.

FedererKing wrote:
In truth, the stats don't lie.  Nor do the ranking points. Where is Nadal in the rankings this year?  His worst ever since rising to the top. He will likely also have his worst year end finish to go with it.  So how can he be so low down the rankings without having played worse than 2011 or even 2013-2014?  Have all the players "caught up" in like a year or two?  David Ferrer as well... just playing better, I guess.

Always the same rhetoric. Wasn't Federer number 7 last year as well? SO what happened? Is federer now back to number 2 because Berdych, Murray. Stan declined? You don;t make sense I am afraid.

Nadal's ranking depends on his form and on his opponents form....like everybody else....It is not down to him alone....that would be too easy! Borg would still be number one had he not declined.....if we were listening to you.

Tenez wrote:

FedererKing wrote:
In truth, the stats don't lie.  Nor do the ranking points. Where is Nadal in the rankings this year?  His worst ever since rising to the top. He will likely also have his worst year end finish to go with it.  So how can he be so low down the rankings without having played worse than 2011 or even 2013-2014?  Have all the players "caught up" in like a year or two?  David Ferrer as well... just playing better, I guess.

Always the same rhetoric. Wasn't Federer number 7 last year as well? SO what happened? Is federer now back to number 2 because Berdych, Murray. Stan declined? You don;t make sense I am afraid.

Nadal's ranking depends on his form and on his opponents form....like everybody else....It is not down to him alone....that would be too easy! Borg would still be number one had he not declined.....if we were listening to you.  

Still missing him?