Novak Djokovic: 2011 or 2015, Which One Is Better?

Tenez wrote:

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Oh please, this is such poor analysis even for your biased standards.

Djokovic played well in French Open 2013, and it was a great match- Nadal could have won in 4 if he hadn't missed the easy forehand while serving for the match, but also Djokovic could have won if not for the net touch in 5th set.

Don't say it is a poor analysis just to say exactly what I am saying. because that makes you a very poor analyst too. What I (we should I say) am saying is that the dominance of Nadal in that FO13 is far from obvious....despite being teh winner. Djoko played terribly yet finds himself with an easy point for double break in the fifth....and yes  with Djoko playing so badly (will you deny that?) Nadal should have closed it in 4....if not 3.
 

You're getting confused here. On the one hand you berate Nadal if you feel his level is higher than Djokovic's; but if it's a close match you also berate Nadal. Whatever happens you would find a way to devalue Nadal's win. If Nadal won in 3 or 4 sets you'd say it's proof Djokovic was playing crap. If Nadal wins in 5 it shows his win wasn't that clear cut at all.
In reality I think Nadal played a phenomenal match, while Djokovic played fantastic tennis too; the 5th set was one of the highest quality sets I've ever seen.

As for USO 2013, in the 3rd set in the final you said 'this match is over'- I remember it, you called the match for Djokovic in the third set. How did that turn out ?

Yes it was DJoko who collapsed out of the blue.

Nadal was playing fantastic, incredible 3rd set which mentally hurt Djokovic. Remember they played a few weeks earlier in Montreal and Nadal won.

And those 2 Slams were not Nadal's only good results, he also played very well in the Masters events.

But very close again. Djoko was certainly not that good or confident that year. It's pretty obvious.

If not for Nadal's fantastic play, Djokovic would have won AO, FO, USO in 2013.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:You're getting confused here. On the one hand you berate Nadal if you feel his level is higher than Djokovic's; but if it's a close match you also berate Nadal. Whatever happens you would find a way to devalue Nadal's win. If Nadal won in 3 or 4 sets you'd say it's proof Djokovic was playing crap. If Nadal wins in 5 it shows his win wasn't that clear cut at all.
In reality I think Nadal played a phenomenal match, while Djokovic played fantastic tennis too; the 5th set was one of the highest quality sets I've ever seen.

Told you many times. I did not know Nadal and Federer when they came to the scene, so if I ended up rating a player over the other it was purely based on what I saw on the court. And so far I have been pretty spot on. Nadal's game is based on fitness alone as when not 110% he is not close to the top players, while Fed can do pretty well still at 24. But the reason I am berate Nadal at that FO13 is simply cause Djoko played awful. Most of us and commentators even thought he was injured....until he woke up a bit and/or Nadal started to tire. But the mistake Djoko made on double BP certainly gave Nadal a second breath and killed Djoko's spirit. That is all I am saying. So yes at the end there is a "win" but ....

If not for Nadal's fantastic play, Djokovic would have won AO, FO, USO in 2013.

If it was not for Djoko's drop of form, Nadal woudl not have won FO, USO, Cincy and Montreal (did Nadal prevent Djoko winning AO 13?).

Tenez wrote:
Told you many times. I did not know Nadal and Federer when they came to the scene, so if I ended up rating a player over the other it was purely based on what I saw on the court. And so far I have been pretty spot on.

Pretty spot on ? I think you've possibly got every single major prediction wrong. You predicted the end of Nadal in 2012, you were 3 years off; you said by 2013 that some new young guns would be dominating and they're barely top 10, you said Dimitrov would be world number 1 by end of 2013 and he probably can't even beat Robredo... you haven't been pretty spot on about anything.

Tenez wrote:But the reason I am berate Nadal at that FO13 is simply cause Djoko played awful.

No he did not play awful, in fact apart from this year (now Nadal has massively declined), that was the closest Djokovic ever got to beating prime Nadal at FO. Before this year, Nadal's h2h vs Djokovic in FO was something like 6-0. Pretty lucky Djokovic was out of form for all those matches, or Nadal would be stuck on 3 French Opens I guess...

[quote="Kim Jong-Un"]

Tenez wrote:
Told you many times. I did not know Nadal and Federer when they came to the scene, so if I ended up rating a player over the other it was purely based on what I saw on the court. And so far I have been pretty spot on.

Pretty spot on ? I think you've possibly got every single major prediction wrong. You predicted the end of Nadal in 2012, you were 3 years off; you said by 2013 that some new young guns would be dominating and they're barely top 10, you said Dimitrov would be world number 1 by end of 2013 and he probably can't even beat Robredo... you haven't been pretty spot on about anything.

Please show me where I said that Dimi woudl be number 1 by 2013?

No he did not play awful, in fact apart from this year (now Nadal has massively declined), that was the closest Djokovic ever got to beating prime Nadal at FO. Before this year, Nadal's h2h vs Djokovic in FO was something like 6-0. Pretty lucky Djokovic was out of form for all those matches, or Nadal would be stuck on 3 French Opens I guess.

Well you are in denial (though I knew that)! If you can;t see that Djoko played like injured for most of the middle of FO13 then you certainly are even more biased than I thought.

Need proof on that Dimi claim. That is booooold!

But to be fair Tenez, Nadal has proven you wrong repeatedly over the years.

luvsports! wrote:Need proof on that Dimi claim. That is booooold!

But to be fair Tenez, Nadal has proven you wrong repeatedly over the years.

And I have always said so. I even created threads about it.

You said something really outlandish about Dimitrov, can't remember what it was exactly, either he would reach number 1 by 2013/14 or that he would win Wimbledon.
This was after his win against Djokovic in Madrid IIRC

Kim Jong-Un wrote:You said something really outlandish about Dimitrov, can't remember what it was exactly, either he would reach number 1 by 2013/14 or that he would win Wimbledon.
This was after his win against Djokovic in Madrid IIRC

don't make it up like you do with the rest of your arguments.

And yes Dimi has potential...whether he fulfills it or not that's a different matter.

Not sure I buy that. He was ranked around 30 in mid '13. Need proof.

Tenez wrote:

Kim Jong-Un wrote:You said something really outlandish about Dimitrov, can't remember what it was exactly, either he would reach number 1 by 2013/14 or that he would win Wimbledon.
This was after his win against Djokovic in Madrid IIRC

don't make it up like you do with the rest of your arguments.

And yes Dimi has potential...whether he fulfills it or not that's a different matter.

I'm not making it up; you said in 2012 that by end of 2013 there would be new young stars at the top; and after Dimitrov's big win against Djokovic you hyped him up massively (can't remember what you said exactly, but I remember thinking it was waaay unrealistic.)
Anyone else remember this ?

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Kim Jong-Un wrote:You said something really outlandish about Dimitrov, can't remember what it was exactly, either he would reach number 1 by 2013/14 or that he would win Wimbledon.
This was after his win against Djokovic in Madrid IIRC

don't make it up like you do with the rest of your arguments.

And yes Dimi has potential...whether he fulfills it or not that's a different matter.

I'm not making it up; you said in 2012 that by end of 2013 there would be new young stars at the top; and after Dimitrov's big win against Djokovic you hyped him up massively (can't remember what you said exactly, but I remember thinking it was waaay unrealistic.)  
Anyone else remember this ?

SB was the one having most hope about him....though I also agreed he had potential. In 2014 he was on trajectory to achieve big. Did he not beat murray at Wimbledon? So I was not far wrong.....then whether he keeps focusing or enjoy is "people" life with shara is something I cannot foresee.

However I am pretty sure Chung will be in top 10 within 12 months......bar injury.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Kim Jong-Un wrote:You said something really outlandish about Dimitrov, can't remember what it was exactly, either he would reach number 1 by 2013/14 or that he would win Wimbledon.
This was after his win against Djokovic in Madrid IIRC

don't make it up like you do with the rest of your arguments.

And yes Dimi has potential...whether he fulfills it or not that's a different matter.

I'm not making it up; you said in 2012 that by end of 2013 there would be new young stars at the top; and after Dimitrov's big win against Djokovic you hyped him up massively (can't remember what you said exactly, but I remember thinking it was waaay unrealistic.)  
Anyone else remember this ?

I remember I always said he was overhyped.
Just like Raonic.

Dimi lacks weapons, Raonic lacks movement.

But Chung is a complete player. He is a talented version of Coric: great movement but with a FH.

I think his BH is even more impressive. I was not comparing him to Coric.

Tenez wrote:I think his BH is even more impressive. I was not comparing him to Coric.

I was!
They have similar natural movement and good understanding of the court.

That's where similarities end.

Coric is not a good ball-striker and plays draining percentage tennis, whereas Chung has a good FH he attacks with.

I haven't seen much of him, though.

Latest!

Apparently, it was a demolition - 6:4 6:2...

For those who like to keep an eye on Nadal's hair:

when was that? just now?

They played an exo today, apparently, $1.5 mil EACH....

And finally from the man himself:


"I feel like Roland Garros final was very emotional, but it happened for a reason.
Winning three out of four Grand Slams and playing another final is not a disappointment. On the contrary, it's as good as it can get. One match more and it's a perfect score.

Somehow I feel like this one is even better than 2011 , I have no reason to regret anything that happened this year. I feel like Roland Garros final was very emotional, but it happened for a reason.
Because I have lost that match, I feel like I was even more eager to come back and play well on Grand Slams. I think this was a big part of my success in Wimbledon and US Open.

I just feel like as a more complete person and a player. I'm a father and a husband.

Just different circumstances that happen in my life in the last couple of years, that have helped me to enjoy all the success that I have on the tennis court even more."

How many more times are you and Tenez going to come back like a stuck record to things the player in question has said about himself? We've repeatedly told you that they are the LEAST objective people of all and that quote above doesn't even mention his standard - just how much it meant to him.

It is fair to say that you contribute as much to that discussion as everyone else.

Anyhow here Djoko doesn't say much....and personally I don't care what he says. I see and that's enough for me.

FedererKing wrote:How many more times are you and Tenez going to come back like a stuck record to things the player in question has said about himself?  We've repeatedly told you that they are the LEAST objective people of all and that quote above doesn't even mention his standard - just how much it meant to him.

???

last week finals:

Berdych: 30
Garcia Lopez: 32
Ferrer: 34
Lopez:34

noleisthebest wrote:

Kim Jong-Un wrote:
Nadal's problem has been making more mistakes on the forehand, and I also suspect he's a bit slower which affects him as he gets older.

I think mistakes on his FH now could be coming from him trying to flatten his shots.

As I mentioned in that longish post earlier, it takes time to bring your improved shots from practice onto a match court.

He may never be able to do it in fact.
But I am pretty sure he is able to get close in practice, which is why he is promising to his fans he'll win again.

He is a hard worker, I'll give  him that, it's a great quality.

And Nadal confirms my point almost word for word:
======================================
"I am practicing better than what I am competing. But is something that is like this today. With the confidence of the practice, then probably going to arrive one day that I going to make a change. Practicing well, the level of tennis going to be there sooner or later. I am working a lot to make that happen.

I know is obvious that I need results to confirm that.
But we are almost at the end of this season and have time to keep playing the last tournaments of the year with the chance to practice the things that I need to do for next year. My goal is recover the level especially for play my best on clay next year."
==================================================

Yes good find. However he talks about "recovering" his level.....or confidence.

That's below is interesting too cause he is saying what we keep saying....that staying at the back doesn't sut it anymore whereas in the past he coudl get away with it though his career was plagued with difficult matches against nobodies who felt in a good day. .

“I think the first set I was not playing very bad, but I was playing three metres behind the baseline,” Nadal said. “So he was playing with a lot of time, plenty of time to do whatever he wanted with the ball. I think I analysed that well at the right time. I was a little bit closer to the baseline later without losing the court, so he didn't have all that time to hit his forehand every single time. That was the key, in my opinion, the position on court. I changed that.”

Tenez wrote:Yes good find. However he talks about "recovering" his level.....or confidence.

That's below is interesting too cause he is saying what we keep saying....that staying at the back doesn't sut it anymore whereas in the past he coudl get away with it though his career was plagued with difficult matches against nobodies who felt in a good day. .

“I think the first set I was not playing very bad, but I was playing three metres behind the baseline,” Nadal said. “So he was playing with a lot of time, plenty of time to do whatever he wanted with the ball. I think I analysed that well at the right time. I was a little bit closer to the baseline later without losing the court, so he didn't have all that time to hit his forehand every single time. That was the key, in my opinion, the position on court. I changed that.”

Yes...
Still too early to write him off.
Hopefully, Nole will dent it tomorrow.

He needs to be kept in check. Fognini let him off the hook today.

Yes Fog should have done better. If anything he was over confident.