ATP 500: Queens, Halle

Brown-Nishi, blast from the past vs the new school.

Brown's got to be the most anti-tennis looking tennis player yet playing it with such heart...simple but exciting.

And Nishi struggling to contain it.
As someone said tennis is a problem solving sport, and this particular match is quite interesting from that point of view.

noleisthebest wrote:I must say Wimbledon draw is going to be more interesting than ever.  In theory Nadal could play any top 8 on second Monday

I believe that in the 4th round of a slam seeds 9-12 are playing seeds 5-8 and seeds 13-16 are playing seeds 1-4.

I wonder where Rafa will fall.  His ranking will be in the 9-12 category but maybe his bad Wimbledon results the last two years could bump his seeding down to the 13-16?  If so, he could play one of the top 4 seeds in round 4.  So maybe we could have a Rafa Nole rematch - this time even one round earlier than at RG.

Tbh, this Wimbledon is all about Fed winning it.

Nole-Nadal was big for RG.

I don't see Nadal bothering Nole any more anyway. If he could not do it on Chatrier, I doubt he'll have a chance anywhere else provided Nole is healthy.

Feli Deli another player who comes to life on grass.

Izzy can play well on it, too.
I feel sorry for him trapped in that huge body.

noleisthebest wrote:Tbh, this Wimbledon is all about Fed winning it.

Nole-Nadal was big for RG.

I don't see Nadal bothering Nole any more anyway. If he could not do it on Chatrier, I doubt he'll have a chance anywhere else provided Nole is healthy.

I hope not but it's never going to be sure against Nadal. I think Nadal was part of Djoko's demise in against Murray and then ultimately v Stan.

I think it was more Murray than Nadal. Nadal only played for two sets there.
He may have taken a lot out emotionally but not physically.
A memorable RG in more than one way.

3 sets with Nadal? It's like a marathon. It's tough. And that might be what allowed Murray back into the match.

The first two sets were physical, the third not, "just" a matter of being focused.
But yes, he can't've been fresh for Murray, so it all added up, esp as there was no rest in between.

In many tournaments these days, best matches are played in earlier rounds, rather than at the end...

No disrespect, but who wants to watch Florian Mayer?

Hopefully Murray-Muller should be good.
Nishi-JJ, too.
Simon-Raonic
Troicki-Isner...

Not sure why, but the more I've watched Simon over the years, the more I liked him.
Allez Gillou!

He's done it!
Grass is the last bastion where player can win without bashing the ball, bravo Gillou!
Raonic actually regressing with his tennis, BH worse than ever, grass def not his surface, terrible footwork and movement.

noleisthebest wrote:No disrespect, but who wants to watch Florian Mayer?  

I am actually quite enjoying his match.

noleisthebest wrote:He's done it!
Grass is the last bastion where player can win without bashing the ball, bravo Gillou!
Raonic actually regressing with his tennis, BH worse than ever, grass def not his surface, terrible footwork and movement.

He's back from injury. Give him time.

Rumors amongst the fans at Halle that Fed has developed a minor knee problem from one of the falls or slips.   Didn't practice yesterday, but must not be serious or he would have pulled out and judging by the box score-  it's not a problem.    Something to watch though.

luvsports! wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:He's done it!
Grass is the last bastion where player can win without bashing the ball, bravo Gillou!
Raonic actually regressing with his tennis, BH worse than ever, grass def not his surface, terrible footwork and movement.

He's back from injury. Give him time.

It was an ankle injury from what I remember, that may explain particularly rusty movement which you cannot hide on grass.

He was beginning to play quite well before the injury, but looked really his worst tense robitic self on grass this week.

He'll probably get back into shape for American hard courts.

Not my cup of tea...sticking his tongue out all the time, arm-sleeve, almost neurotically slick haircut...but certainly a character!

truffin1 wrote:Rumors amongst the fans at Halle that Fed has developed a minor knee problem from one of the falls or slips.   Didn't practice yesterday, but must not be serious or he would have pulled out and judging by the box score-  it's not a problem.    Something to watch though.

We can't have Fed injured for Wimbledon!!!
I didn't see yesterday's match.

Should be fun to watch him play Ivo today, I love how he slowly dismantles big servers and Karlovic seems to be in top serving form, 44 aces yesterday, new record!

Also really pleased with Troicki's run at Queens.
He may have a chance against Murray, but Murray is so good at dissolving players like Troicki with his retrieving and consistent returning.

I just hope Viktor doesn't choke like last week against Nadal.

Fed loving all Ivo's short balls.
Looks just like 2005: 1st serve, straight in, inside out FH put away, trade-mark Fed!

Worst case scenario, it's an approach shot followed by 2nd volley.

Real tennis.

No "rallying", pushing the ball around, waiting for the "right" ball to hit a safe winner on.

Obviously, Ivo's groundstrokes aren't that brilliant and making life difficult for Fed, but, hey, who cares

One thing Fed is doing now which he didn't use to is put loads of spin on inside out FH from the baseline.

Funnily, it's not even giving him security on the shot as he often misses it, I wonder why he's stopped hitting it flat like he does with the mid court one, esp on grass!

Here's a question:

who trusts his serve more: Fed or Ivo?

what do you mean?

What do you mean what do I mean?

Who is a more confident server...the question was rhetorical, for me at least...

Feds through!

noleisthebest wrote:One thing Fed is doing now which he didn't use to is put loads of spin on inside out FH from the baseline.

Funnily, it's not even giving him security on the shot as he often misses it, I wonder why he's stopped hitting it flat like he does with the mid court one, esp on grass!

And just now hit a flat one!
Was called out but the challenge showed it was in.

That's the real Fed!

I dunno but I woudl not trust Kawkeye. Federer's shot in that TB looked out but HE saw it good. I am pretty sure that as HE is a run by a piece of software it could be easy to make a call out, in.

Well done on Fed though for handling that big server.

noleisthebest wrote:What do you mean what do I mean?

Who is a more confident server...the question was rhetorical, for me at least...

And my question gets answered in a perfect way through two TBs, both going Fed's way

Really enjoyed Fed's BH today.
FH good but could be better...in fact it will have to be better for Wimbledon against good baseliners.

Tenez wrote:I dunno but I woudl not trust Kawkeye. Federer's shot in that TB looked out but HE saw it good. I am pretty sure that as HE is a run by a piece of software it could be easy to make a call out, in.

Well done on Fed though for handling that big server.

I agree. Not the first time I saw it happen.
HE seems to be liking star players...Fed and Nadal in particular, even Nole once in AO.

Nishi retired in his match to Seppi, hope it isn't serious!

Anderson through to the final at Queens and climbs to #14, his best ever ranking.

How on earth did Seppi find himself in Halle final?

Looks like Kohli-Fed in round one was the real final...

Are you really suggesting Hawkeye is rigged ? Any actual evidence for this ?

Yes...unfortunately.

Hawkeye is technically flawed and not perfect, especially in those 1mm in or out close ups.

So easy to have ready pre-recorded clips. Much easier than to rig draws or ignore continuous time violations.
Now when players have to go for the lines more than ever, you can see the temptation.

The number of times hawkeye showed the wrong flight of the ball or mark...
Poor Ljubicic even could not have it once when the call was so obviously wrong (he played Murray in IW I think, later got an "apology" from ATP).

Why not use it for foot faults, then?
Anyone remembers the famous Karlovic-Murray match in Wimbledon? 11 foot faults were given to poor Ivo...

I am not saying it's is used all the time, but I saw it abused on several occasions.
It's particularly obvious on clay replays.

What fascinates me is that people (probably all except Tenez and myself, please correct me if I'm wrong) here will cynically question all lies and cheating in an extremely lucrative business such as tennis, yet news and headlines are daily full of stories of embezzlement, stealing, corruption...(and these would be the mild versions of what goes on behind the scenes).

Why is professional sport/tennis any different?

noleisthebest wrote:Yes...unfortunately.

Hawkeye is technically flawed and not perfect, especially in those 1mm in or out close ups.

Do you think chair umpires and linesmen are perfect? They are far worse. HE still far more accurate to be correct than a human. Hawk-eye over the years have improved a lot, there might have been less accurate earlier but now its much more. Errors on 1mm calls, I'll trust the HE. Lines-man keep missing even some of the regular ones. See that.

The game has become much fair to players with HE. Its the best thing to happen to tennis since may be after the beginning of Open era.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Are you really suggesting Hawkeye is rigged ? Any actual evidence for this ?

I am not saying they do rig it but they could and that means some will try to use the tchnology to their advantage (Like a TD preferring to have Nadal or Fed in finals rather than Karlo). Problem is whenever there is credulity to be exploited, some will exploit it. And the fact you don't even question HE shows some credulity here.

noleisthebest wrote:What fascinates me is that people (probably all except Tenez and myself, please correct me if I'm wrong) here will cynically question all lies and cheating in an extremely lucrative business such as tennis, yet news and headlines are daily full of stories of embezzlement, stealing, corruption...(and these would be the mild versions of what goes on behind the scenes).

Why is professional sport/tennis any different?

Because it is far different from seeing a story on corruption than actually experiencing and witnessing one first hand. I work in procurement and I have been offered bribes and what have you to fix the outcome of a contract. Sadly reporting this conduct is futile because they never do it on email or by phone. It's always face to face 2 against 1 is particularly difficult. Luckily because I work in the public sector it is less likely to find corruption because there are paper trails that will link companies and individuals in the pockets of others. When I was studying I would listen to my private sector counterparts who would tell stories of lavish gifts and palm carressing by companies wanting business. It is and always will be an integral part of business despite the lack of morals. I look at Africa for example and corruption is extreme. I am always getting links to stories of how either a procurement professional is done for accepting bribes or killed. It's that extreme.

Now in terms of sport you have to have a degree of perspective. The talk here of draw rigging or doping, yes that is something that can potentially happen in the realms of things. Other sports have seen it so yes it is given due consideration. Now in terms of Hawkeye being corrupt, no-one here has any idea how the software or technology for it works and whether the applicator can corrupt it during a match. So for me that is dead in the water. 

I always find truffins posts interesting. Because of his personal experiences. That's the thing is about understanding how it takes place. 

Look at the FIFA scandal. All the time countries profiteered from the event, no-one said a word. Once one party doesn't get its way, pow a can of worms is opened. Paper trails are being picked up left right and centre and what is so hilarious about the FBI investigating it is that the US 94 bid was full of backhanders.

Sadly a neglect of ethics and rule bending and law breaking does help move things on. You'll never get a pure outcome from any business transaction.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Yes...unfortunately.

Hawkeye is technically flawed and not perfect, especially in those 1mm in or out close ups.

Do you think chair umpires and linesmen are perfect? They are far worse. HE still far more accurate to be correct than a human. Hawk-eye over the years have improved a lot, there might have been less accurate earlier but now its much more. Errors on 1mm calls, I'll trust the HE. Lines-man keep missing even some of the regular ones. See that.

The game has become much fair to players with HE. Its the best thing to happen to tennis since may be after the beginning of Open era.

ROTLA, NITB isn't suggesting that Hawkeye is bad because it's not precise enough, she's suggesting along with Tenez that the clips are pre-recorded and fixed to help Fedal.

noleisthebest wrote:
The number of times hawkeye showed the wrong flight of the ball or mark...
Poor Ljubicic even could not have it once when the call was so obviously wrong (he played Murray in IW I think, later got an "apology" from ATP).

Provide some evidence for this please. Where has hawkeye been clearly wrong.

Tenez wrote:And the fact you don't even question HE shows some credulity here.

I think everything should be held to scrutiny, but you have a habit of randomly making up theories that sound nice to you and not providing evidence for it.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

Tenez wrote:And the fact you don't even question HE shows some credulity here.

I think everything should be held to scrutiny, but you have a habit of randomly making up theories that sound nice to you and not providing evidence for it.

That's your subjective way of putting it.

The truth is, we just observe with an open mind and notice anomalies. I don't even look for them, they are quite obvious.

As for proof with hawkeye, the only official recorded case was with Ljubicic.
I noticed it 5-6 times, but of course don't have an archive of videos at my fingertips.
I usually mention it while commenting here during matches.
And it's not just for Fedal, but Murray, too. Could be others, as well but I only noticed for these three.

I have no reason to make any of it up. All I am saying HE is far from perfect, can be easily abused, and I have seen it happen a few times.

Here are some examples:








The worst one was with Murray-Ljubicic.
I believe it's no coincidence we can't find a clip of it on Youtube:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/mar/20/andy-murray-ivan-ljubicic

So someone has to manipulate it to suit a player?

It's not perfect but it works most the time. This just proves that.

Here it is, as close as I could find it:

luvsports! wrote:So someone has to manipulate it to suit a player?

It's not perfect but it works most the time. This just proves that.

It does work but it's not as accurate as most believe and it's also easy to manipulate.

Just like in football, the ref can execute a pre-arranged bias: give a red card, yellow card, penalty, ignore faults... same in tennis.
We all know tennis is a game that very often turns on a point.

So many things happen behind the scenes, we even have a player BAN an umpire from his matches!

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Yes...unfortunately.

Hawkeye is technically flawed and not perfect, especially in those 1mm in or out close ups.

Do you think chair umpires and linesmen are perfect? They are far worse. HE still far more accurate to be correct than a human. Hawk-eye over the years have improved a lot, there might have been less accurate earlier but now its much more. Errors on 1mm calls, I'll trust the HE. Lines-man keep missing even some of the regular ones. See that.

The game has become much fair to players with HE. Its the best thing to happen to tennis since may be after the beginning of Open era.

Far from it:

https://ourtennisforum.forumotion.co.uk/t8-john-lloyd-ivo-must-be-punished-over-cheat-claims

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/18636457 (Karlovic questions Wimbledon Integrity)


But it's important to keep eyes and mind open not be brainwashed that tennis is a whiter than white clean sport...

Same with any other lies media serve up pushing countries into fabricated wars.
Tennis by comparison is nothing, but it doesn't mean it's fair and equal for all players.

It's a money making business, The show, and main stars will be protected.
With the case of Nadal, the bias went too far and ruined the sport.

Yes but how would they manipulate it?
Someone before the match puts money on them to alter a call?
On clay it doesn't count as it isn't used. 

SOme of those examples don't prove anything. Im open to it but the evidence is Hawkeye-esque (v2 poster).

You need to do better than sport in general is corrupt as the basis to call a system in sport corrupt without the faintest idea of how it works.

https://youtu.be/XhQyVnwBXBs

The above was a brief look at how the system works. Now it's critical to note the accuracy was to be within 5mm on each challenge and they are operating at 3.6mm which suggests they are more than consistent.

Now think of what you are implying. How can anyone fix Hawkeye to benefit of a player before a match? Challenges by players are purely spontaneous and unpredictable. There is no certainty they will gain better leverage with Hawkeye than their opponent. 

Remember the system was not designed to be 100% perfect or accurate.

I'll leave it at this stage, agree to disagree.
Let's all pay close attention during Wimbledon, where balls are fast and hawkeye will be used a lot.
Especially week 1.

Let's see which players' the 1mm out or in calls go to.
Deal?

Btw, did anyone see the finals today? I only saw Fed-Seppi highlights, looked good.


How did Murray look on grass, particularly his 2nd serve?

I heard Feds was subpar but Murray looked good. He was pulling out a lot of his shots which you don't see too often. Confident mood.

Interesting.
Did he play all court tennis or the usual baseline?