ATP MASTERS 1000: CINCINNATI - THE FINAL

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:

Tenez wrote:I remember those who said in 2007/8 that Fed was past his peak!!!! 4 years on he still plays unbelievable and when on form, no one can touch him.

Fed has some mental hiccups with his great fellow, but now without having him in draw he looks pretty relaxed. Fortunately the GS are played for 5 sets, otherwise there is a small threat on HC with his peak serving. As already written the semi should be quite sure for top 3 and then who is going through Andy will have tricky way to final. Fed looks pretty good for his 18th.

Paul I don;t believe in Fed's mental hiccups v Rafa. He always lost versus Rafa cause Rafa physically drains him down. Without teh physical challenge that is Rafa, Fed woudl lead by a great margin in teh H2H dept.

Not only physicallity of Nadal´s game, but heavy topspin from LH forehand into his BH causes huge damage. Fed is too clever to know that he does not have any chance to go through Nadal on clay and can say through Nole either so he can concentrate on not clay season and he benefits from this now. After Nole dismantled Nadal last year, Fed feels more freely and knows that Nadal will have hard times with his game style. Many players say that without Nadal Fed could reach maybe to 30 GS. Nadal started concentrate on beating Nole this year, he adjusted his game plan little bit, but still is the biggest threat for Fed.

The Mighty Federer

HM Murdoch wrote:NITB - Yep, Fed is defending 3000 points to about 500 for Novak I think.

Depending how USO goes, Nole may well reclaim number 1 before the end of the year. But it won't be a done deal before WTF!

Why not? If he overtakes Fed before WTF, Fed can do nothing in terms of gaining points.
Nole should get to USO final at least.

paulcz wrote:Not only physicallity of Nadal´s game, but heavy topspin from LH forehand into his BH causes huge damage. Fed is too clever to know that he does not have any chance to go through Nadal on clay and can say through Nole either so he can concentrate on not clay season and he benefits from this now. After Nole dismantled Nadal last year, Fed feels more freely and knows that Nadal will have hard times with his game style. Many players say that without Nadal Fed could reach maybe to 30 GS. Nadal started concentrate on beating Nole this year, he adjusted his game plan little bit, but still is the biggest threat for Fed.

That's what I call physical as well. When Nadal is not "slam fit", his shots land shorter and are much easier to attack. All LFers have tried to attack Fed's BH but they all failed cause none could produce as energetic a ball as Nadal. The H2H on clay is proof that it's all about physique and not mind cause this is teh surface where Nadal's physique makes the most damage.

Mentally, Nadal is almost always the one starting nervously v Fed, even on clay and Nadal only takes heart when he sees Fed starting to shank a few balls cause Nadal's fizzy ball is particularly tough to time.

I really do not see the mental battle there contrary to the general belief.

wow3 wrote:The Mighty Federer

Indeedy!

Djoko supporters must be gutted

I think they are too mature to be gutted. It's only a tennis match...and a "small" one!

Tenez wrote:I think they are too mature to be gutted. It's only a tennis match...and a "small" one!

you are 100% right, strangely, I'm not bothered at all. No shame losing to an in-form Federer especially without the serve. Just hope he sorts it out whatever the problem was, although I don't think there was any particular problem. Fed plays fast when he's allowed out of the blocks, and Novak shot himself in the foot straight away being broken in the first game.
Although his timing was strangely off in the whole of that 1st set. That is very unusual for him. Maybe just one of those days. It did happen to him at the WTF two years ago, as well, lost to Fed pretty quickly. You get to be on top from the word go in the best of 3 against Federer, esp on fast surfaces. Esp if he is servin like he has been serving in Cincy.

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:Not only physicallity of Nadal´s game, but heavy topspin from LH forehand into his BH causes huge damage. Fed is too clever to know that he does not have any chance to go through Nadal on clay and can say through Nole either so he can concentrate on not clay season and he benefits from this now. After Nole dismantled Nadal last year, Fed feels more freely and knows that Nadal will have hard times with his game style. Many players say that without Nadal Fed could reach maybe to 30 GS. Nadal started concentrate on beating Nole this year, he adjusted his game plan little bit, but still is the biggest threat for Fed.

That's what I call physical as well. When Nadal is not "slam fit", his shots land shorter and are much easier to attack. All LFers have tried to attack Fed's BH but they all failed cause none could produce as energetic a ball as Nadal. The H2H on clay is proof that it's all about physique and not mind cause this is teh surface where Nadal's physique makes the most damage.

Mentally, Nadal is almost always the one starting nervously v Fed, even on clay and Nadal only takes heart when he sees Fed starting to shank a few balls cause Nadal's fizzy ball is particularly tough to time.

I really do not see the mental battle there contrary to the general belief.

Then yes, physicallity with Nadal´s LH that is a poison for Fed. I think everybody can see that without Nadal in the draw Roger seems to be quite relaxed and in good mood now. I can not look at Nadal even outside of courts, he never looks relaxed. He is just unbelievably stressed by somebody all the time

Tenez wrote:I think they are too mature to be gutted. It's only a tennis match...and a "small" one!

Wasn't Djoko fav to go to this match?

Tenez wrote: He always lost versus Rafa cause Rafa physically drains him down. Without teh physical challenge that is Rafa, Fed woudl lead by a great margin in teh H2H dept.

Very good observation. Federer beats Djokovic by shotmaking. Djokovic beats Nadal by overcoming his physical game, which Nadal uses to beat Federer.

Tenez wrote:I think they are too mature to be gutted. It's only a tennis match...and a "small" one!

It is always a small one for the loser, but a big one for the winner.

Glad to see Federer win a title.

SoCal has hinted at some non-Tennis issues with Djokovic. Hope he can fix them before USO.

Socal/Lydian came and read it here first. I made sure I confused everyone's tracks

wow3 wrote:Djoko supporters must be gutted

Oh my dear wow3, I am really in good mood now and also believe that Nole will come back stronger at USO

There is only one player that I can not stand with and Fed is not him

It is now very clear that 2011 was an aberration for Djoko.

laverfan wrote:

Tenez wrote:
He always lost versus Rafa cause Rafa physically drains him down. Without teh physical challenge that is Rafa, Fed woudl lead by a great margin in teh H2H dept.

Very good observation. Federer beats Djokovic by shotmaking. Djokovic beats Nadal by overcoming his physical game, which Nadal uses to beat Federer.

I really think that if Nadal would not play by LH, then he would hardly succeed against Fed even on clay at his best years.

Does everybody know if their speed comparison has been ever published, like run for 100metres or something?

paulcz wrote:
Tenez, I wrote something different

Then yes, physicallity with Nadal´s LH that is a poison for Fed. I think everybody can see that without Nadal in the draw Roger seems to be quite relaxed and in good mood now. I can not look at Nadal even outside of courts, he never looks relaxed. He is just unbelievably stressed by somebody all the time

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I simply do not see Fed being nervous when he plays Rafa o even knows he is somewhere in the draw. He knows Nadal is his biggest challenge but I do think he appreciates the challenge rafa represents. I honestly do.

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:
Tenez, I wrote something different

Then yes, physicallity with Nadal´s LH that is a poison for Fed. I think everybody can see that without Nadal in the draw Roger seems to be quite relaxed and in good mood now. I can not look at Nadal even outside of courts, he never looks relaxed. He is just unbelievably stressed by somebody all the time

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I simply do not see Fed being nervous when he plays Rafa o even knows he is somewhere in the draw. He knows Nadal is his biggest challenge but I do think he appreciates the challenge rafa represents. I honestly do.

My comment above is not valid anymore, you already corrected quotes.

Let us hope that both will have a possibility to play against each other

paulcz wrote:I really think that if Nadal would not play by LH, then he would hardly succeed against Fed even on clay at his best years.

Do you know Federer's h2h against Lopez or Melzer?

paulcz wrote:Does everybody know if their speed comparison has been ever published, like run for 100metres or something?

They are not competing with Bolt, are they? There is a racquet, and a ball, and stopping and turning, etc.. A 100m dash is not a very useful metric, is it? What would such a measurement provide?

noleisthebest wrote:Socal/Lydian came and read it here first. I made sure I confused everyone's tracks

Now you know the reason why I do not trust Internet Tennis fora?

Since that loss agianst Tsonga in WImby 2011 Fed has turned a new leaf. If a hard court plays fast then no one can still not touch him. Quite amazing for 31 years old. This probably makes Fed as favourite for USO which in itself is such an exciting prospect.

Djoko is no the same player as he was in 2011. A peak Djoko should beat Fed easily like he did at French Open. Andy is still in the mix, I think he is just conserving the energy for the USO. It seems that now it's amongst top 3 to take that final slam of year 2012.

laverfan wrote:

paulcz wrote:I really think that if Nadal would not play by LH, then he would hardly succeed against Fed even on clay at his best years.

Do you know Federer's h2h against Lopez or Melzer?

paulcz wrote:Does everybody know if their speed comparison has been ever published, like run for 100metres or something?

They are not competing with Bolt, are they? There is a racquet, and a ball, and stopping and turning, etc.. A 100m dash is not a very useful metric, is it? What would such a measurement provide?

noleisthebest wrote:Socal/Lydian came and read it here first. I made sure I confused everyone's tracks

Now you know the reason why I do not trust Internet Tennis fora?

Laverfan, I think that you know that the shot differences between the TOP are not big and often just a head decides. Today´s tennis has changed to be more "athletish". Legs and heads are the base of tennis, hands just come together with previous ones

paulcz wrote:

Let us hope that both will have a possibility to play against each other

Yes, and on clay...cause this is where Fed's challenge really is. He has nothing to prove against anybod on any other surface.

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:

Let us hope that both will have a possibility to play against each other

Yes, and on clay...cause this is where Fed's challenge really is. He has nothing to prove against anybod on any other surface.

I´d rather appreciate next semi in Wimby between them, I think RG will not be interisting.

or next semi between Fed and Andy at USO would not be bad

I am convinced that Fed can still beat Nadal on clay if the balls are like FO 2011. In fact I think he will beat him next year.

Tenez wrote:I am convinced that Fed can still beat Nadal on clay if the balls are like FO 2011. In fact I think he will beat him next year.

And then he can retire....

Tenez wrote:I am convinced that Fed can still beat Nadal on clay if the balls are like FO 2011. In fact I think he will beat him next year.

Here I do not think, it is already in Fed´s head that win 3 sets with Nadal is impossible. But nobody knows and as you say faster balls and Nadal a bit struggling could result in such a challenge.

I really think that Fed will leave some clay sessions and will save energy for defending Wimby next year. Here he still get a big chance for adding a GS.

Federer at 31 is still showing that he has no limitation. He is in a different league. He can win the FO again. This year he was not 100%.

Tenez wrote:Federer at 31 is still showing that he has no limitation. He is in a different league. He can win the FO again. This year he was not 100%.

what makes you so confident, knowing Fed's history at RG? Is it last year's final?

Not so much last year but all their encounters on clay have been pretty close bar the 2008 match. I m pretty sure that Had Fed a bit more training on that cross court FH he woudl have got teh rhythm right and would have been able to handle it much better. The problem he had is that he coudl not train against such a shot cuase no other player can hit it as hard. However we saw that year after year he learnt how to handle it better. Unfortuantely he had to face Nadal in high pressure situations like Slams finals and that made the timing even worse.

Tenez wrote:Not so much last year but all their encounters on clay have been pretty close bar the 2008 match. I m pretty sure that Had Fed a bit more training on that cross court FH he woudl have got teh rhythm right and would have been able to handle it much better. The problem he had is that he coudl not train against such a shot cuase no other player can hit it as hard. However we saw that year after year he learnt how to handle it better. Unfortuantely he had to face Nadal in high pressure situations like Slams finals and that made the timing even worse.

His cross court forehand was lethal today. I have never seen him play it from the baseline before and so well.

noleisthebest wrote:


His cross court forehand was lethal today. I have never seen him play it from the baseline before and so well.

Yes...He plays with lots of confidence atm. And you are right when you say this performance looked like WTF 2010 v Djoko again.

Something nice for you to read, in case you missed it during Wimbledon on a new Federer thread

I missed a lot of the final yesterday, could only see the 2nd set TB of the final at a friend's place, so couldn't login to post or read anything here. Just finished watching the repeat telecast today morning.

Federer played great to win Cincy. Djo was too slow to get off the blocks. He could gather some pace, but Fed had the momentum and won it.

I have to rewatch the match. My connection was slow but I was quite impressed by Federer's game in the previous rounds as well. Especially since he doesn't look he is being stretched by anybody.

rotla,

if you've got the time, would you be interested in doing the Match of the day thread for the USO with that game?

Tenez wrote:I am convinced that Fed can still beat Nadal on clay if the balls are like FO 2011. In fact I think he will beat him next year.

Why will they be, its provided by Babolat and we know who is their top tier player. The balls this year were tailor-made for Nadal to win his 7th RG, a documented fact how slow they made it. Though they provided even in 2011 but I believe they didn't really mean the balls to be the way it turned out and they just got saved because Nadal won it despite the struggles.

noleisthebest wrote:rotla,

if you've got the time, would you be interested in doing the Match of the day thread for the USO with that game?

As you wish lady.

Thanks rotla ! aaand a choice of or

On the house, of course!

Main draw for USO out on Thursday.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I think they are too mature to be gutted. It's only a tennis match...and a "small" one!

you are 100% right, strangely, I'm not bothered at all. No shame losing to an in-form Federer especially without the serve. Just hope he sorts it out whatever the problem was, although I don't think there was any particular problem. Fed plays fast when he's allowed out of the blocks, and Novak shot himself in the foot straight away being broken in the first game.
Although his timing was strangely off in the whole of that 1st set. That is very unusual for him. Maybe just one of those days. It did happen to him at the WTF two years ago, as well, lost to Fed pretty quickly. You get to be on top from the word go in the best of 3 against Federer, esp on fast surfaces. Esp if he is servin like he has been serving in Cincy.

wow is trying to wind up some Djo fans, nice try

noleisthebest wrote:Thanks rotla ! aaand a choice of or

On the house, of course!

Yes. those are all of course on the house; my house.

laverfan wrote:

paulcz wrote:I really think that if Nadal would not play by LH, then he would hardly succeed against Fed even on clay at his best years.

Do you know Federer's h2h against Lopez or Melzer?

Fed-Melzer : 3-1
Fed-Feli Lopez : 10-0

Looks like a wum attempt from LF . All left handers do not play alike, none play like Nadal. Nadal is a unique player. While the swinging wide out serve on the AD court favors them all, they are all different in their own plays. A SHBH is vulnerable to heavy high bouncing top spinning balls, and this can't be any better than from the left hand cross court shot. Had Nadal been the same player but with a right hand he couldn't have been able to draw out errors from the Fed backhand like he has done. And we know how significant that play has been in deciding their h2h ( from Nadal's book too as some people quote)

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Why will they be, its provided by Babolat and we know who is their top tier player. The balls this year were tailor-made for Nadal to win his 7th RG, a documented fact how slow they made it.

Yes but the organisers have their say as well and it looks like nothing is fixed. I think players may have complained about the dreadful balls. Organiser would much prefer having matches like in 2011 than in 2012 where it was dead boring from the word go.

2011 provided one of teh best match of the season (Fed Djoko) and the final was pretty close too.

But regardless, I believe Fed can win whatever the conds.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I think they are too mature to be gutted. It's only a tennis match...and a "small" one!

you are 100% right, strangely, I'm not bothered at all. No shame losing to an in-form Federer especially without the serve. Just hope he sorts it out whatever the problem was, although I don't think there was any particular problem. Fed plays fast when he's allowed out of the blocks, and Novak shot himself in the foot straight away being broken in the first game.
Although his timing was strangely off in the whole of that 1st set. That is very unusual for him. Maybe just one of those days. It did happen to him at the WTF two years ago, as well, lost to Fed pretty quickly. You get to be on top from the word go in the best of 3 against Federer, esp on fast surfaces. Esp if he is servin like he has been serving in Cincy.

wow is trying to wind up some Djo fans, nice try

Not really, only nitb. Also with no Nadal on the scene the liking towards Nole diminishes. Fed and Murray are the favoured choices. Nole becomes the third choice. Also for me tennis is not same without Nadal, I get so much pleasure when he loses, with him being absent that aspect of the tennis is gone. So a fed win or Murray's first slam are two things which will kept me hooked to tennis.

I miss you Nadal

Tenez wrote:
Yes but the organisers have their say as well and it looks like nothing is fixed. I think players may have complained about the dreadful balls. Organiser would much prefer having matches like in 2011 than in 2012 where it was dead boring from the word go.

2011 provided one of teh best match of the season (Fed Djoko) and the final was pretty close too.

But regardless, I believe Fed can win whatever the conds.

Didn't organizers have any say this year? How did Babolat slowed the balls to such limits so that almost nothing could pass him which he can't run down and retrieve. Only Fed I heard saying about the slow balls, Djo or Nadal won't, as the slow balls work in their favor. Do rest of the field matters?

[quote="raiders_of_the_lost_ark"]

Tenez wrote:
Didn't organizers have any say this year? How did Babolat slowed the balls to such limits so that almost nothing could pass him which he can't run down and retrieve. Only Fed I heard saying about the slow balls, Djo or Nadal won't, as the slow balls work in their favor. Do rest of the field matters?

Yes but organisers may not have been aware Babolat slowed the balls as much, like they were not aware the 2011 balls woudl be so different from the Dunlop used the previous years despite asking Babolat to provide exactly the same size and weight. I don;t think Babolat has a say on everything. As we see constantly organisers keep playing with conds and who knows what they want next year.

I think Djko also complained about the slow balls. I don't think the organisers want Nadal to win more FO. They want him to be in the final for sure cause he si a big ticket seller but they most probably want another name. They did their best to speed up conds in 2009 cause they did not want another FO 2008.

Babolat will try to make things easy for Nadal but tehy might want to help Tsonga or else next time. The final was another bore in quality and I am sur the French Open will want to make sure a bit more attractive tennis will be played next year.

Tenez wrote:



Babolat will try to make things easy for Nadal but tehy might want to help Tsonga or else next time. The final was another bore in quality and I am sur the French Open will want to make sure a bit more attractive tennis will be played next year.

You do know that clay is Rosol's favourite surface, don't you?

I would absolutely LOVE to see the two play the first round there.....

Do you really think Rosol can repeat his exploit on slower conds? Not a chance I am afraid....

Tenez wrote:Do you really think Rosol can repeat his exploit on slower conds? Not a chance I am afraid....

On slow clay? Against Nadal? No way. While a tall player like Rosol likes the high bounce that Nadal's topspins get, but his W spoils were mainly due to his serving and the brilliant winners he was able to hit past Nadal. On clay they are all retrievable. But again who know.

Tenez wrote:Do you really think Rosol can repeat his exploit on slower conds? Not a chance I am afraid....

having seen him play on clay, I don't think Rosol would be as good against Nadal as under the roof on fresh grass of Wimbledon, however....imagine a tight first set and a bit of sparks flying off during changeovers... and only 19 seconds between points....

Well Rosol certainly has the firepower to scare Nadal but over 5 sets? The best I have seen a SVer on clay v Nadal was Isner. He took him to 5 sets....but again teh 5th was a certainty for Nadal.