Religion, Philosphy and other life related thoughts!

noleisthebest wrote:Good night all. 
NITB has played a lot of tennis in cold windy weather today and is a bit tired  
Thank you for your interest in what I had to say. I hope God blesses it.

You didn't address any of the direct contradictions Wilson found in the Bible, and then you failed to answer my yes/no question as to whether you agreed with the Bible that the earth is flat.

You didn't expect an answer to overwhelmingly evidence of absurdity did you? Like I said, as Sheryl Crow sang "if it makes you happy it can't be half bad". I'm all for leading a moralistic life, respect for others, etc, but I don't need a book full of contradictions, absurdities and outdated concepts to tell me how to lead my life.

The whole concept of Christianity is absurd and ludicrous.  This so called "divine plan" of God's was a disaster from the beginning.  However, Christians see it as the most perfect and well thought out plan imaginable.  If anyone on this planet, theist or atheist, had the powers that God's is said to have, they could come up with a much better plan then this don't you think? I'll leave you all with this thinking. Read it a few times.

Christian 'rules'
The first few books of the Bible contains hundreds of laws said to be handed down to the Israelites by God.  These laws covered many issues pertaining to morality, domestic issues, property, health, how God was to be worshipped; you name it; everything that a person might deal with in their life.  There were also laws that dictated what punishment was to be rendered in the event that these laws were ever broken.  Depending on which law was broken, and by whom, the punishment could have been quite severe.  In some cases, the law required that a woman be punished more severely than a man.

For example, a married man could have sex with another woman, provided she wasn't married.  In this case, the woman would just become another wife for the man.  It was very common for men to have many wives in the Old Testament.  However, a married woman could not have sex with another man, regardless of his marital status.  If a married woman had sex with another man, she was to be put to death.  The man was also to be put to death, because the woman was married.  Married women were considered property, this is why they were put to death for having sex with another man; they were owned by someone else.  When a man had sex with a married woman, he was to be put to death also; not for adultery, but for stealing another man's property.

Christians often pick and choose which of God's laws they will continue to obey, and which they feel that they no longer need to follow.  This includes what punishment to bestow when a law is broken.  To Christians, the Bible is like a salad bar, and the laws within it is like many varieties of food you would find there.  Like getting food from a salad bar, Christians often select only those laws that appeal to them and leaving the rest behind.  The laws Christians usually gorge on are often, but not always, moral in nature.

Many laws in the Old Testament have become quite outdated, not only to Christians, but to non-Christians as well; theists and non-theists.  Of the three major Abrahamic religions, I think Islam is the only one that strictly follows the laws and punishments of the Old Testament.  Islam does not follow the Bible; it follows the Quran, but it has adopted many of the same laws found in the Old Testament; thus becoming Islamic Law.  Even in the 21st century, people can be put to death for breaking some laws of Islam; depending on where they live of course.

Christianity claims to have the most diverse denominations of any other religion in the world.  Islam and Judaism have different denominations, but Christianity has more than all those put together.  This is because Christians can't agree amongst themselves on how scripture is to be followed.  Paul says in Philippians 2, verses 1 & 2, "Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind"; however, Christians don't seem to adhere to this request.  Christians don't agree with what is moral or immoral to God.  And because of such disagreements, Christians have broken off to form different denominations.  Look at the Episcopal Church...When the first openly gay bishop was approved by the church, the more conservative members felt that this was immoral.  The more liberal of the Episcopal Church thought it was OK.  Those who disagreed with the church, broke off, and a new denomination of Christianity was created; The Anglican Church of North America.

Christians have come up with many reasons on why they pick and choose on which of the scriptures they tend to follow and the ones they don't.  Some Christians claim that the laws of the Old Testament were written for the Hebrews, so they don't pertain to them.  However, they insist on quoting Old Testament commandments and laws when trying to push their morals on other people.  Other Christians say that because of the new covenant through Jesus Christ, those laws no longer apply; they don't count anymore.  They say that they only have to obey New Testament laws.  If Christians continue to insist that the Old Testament laws are no longer a concern, then there are many verses that can be used to show that all the laws and commandments of the Old Testament must be followed by Christians.

For those Christians who say that the commandments of the Old Testament were meant only for the Hebrews, the New Testament has these verses that say otherwise.

Matthew 19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2-3  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

For those Christians who say that the new covenant through Jesus negates the Old Testament laws, Jesus says...

Matthew 5:17-19  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:16-17  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.  And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Adultery is one of the Ten Commandments that is strictly forbidden by God.  As stated  before, adultery is punishable by death according to God's law.  Jesus took this law one step further and said that if you remarry after a divorce, you are still considered an adulterer.

Matthew 5:31-32  It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

How many Christians have disobeyed this law?  Christians have the highest divorce rate in the United States; and by the way, atheists have the lowest.  Now, it's not against God's law to get a divorce...Well it's not against God's law for a man to divorce his wife.  A woman could not divorce her husband; remember, she was property.  However, it's the remarrying after a divorce that is illegal in God's eyes.

Can God change his mind and abolish all the old laws?  Jesus said that he hasn't changed his mind, and the Bible says that he won't change his mind.

Number 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Malachi 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Ezekiel 24:14  I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

James 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Let's face it; Christians cherry pick which laws they are going to obey, because even they realize how stupid and ludicrous some of those old laws can be, especially some of the punishments that were required for breaking such laws.  People have become more civilized and recognize the incivility of most of these laws.  Any Christian in their right mind is not going to kill their child for disobedience.  Pork is delicious, in particular, BBQ'd pork, so of course it's OK to eat now.  Christianity needs symbols for it to be recognized, so there have to be graven images and idols to identify it.  And then there is Jesus.  Christians will continue to break the laws laid out in the Bible as long as they think they have a "get out of jail" free card.


Heaven
NITB tells us about heaven. The ultimate goal for Christians is to get to Heaven after they have died.  That is their final reward for living the Christian life here on Earth.  The Bible gives a description of Heaven, or the rather the city of Heaven that Christians will live in the book of Revelation, chapter 21; even giving the dimensions of it's size.  From the description in Revelation, Heaven sounds like a wonderful, beautiful place.  It also sounds very man made.

By the dimensions given, Heaven is roughly the size of the contiguous United States, maybe a little smaller.  That is pretty small compared to the immense size of the universe.  But considering that most people will be going to Hell anyway, and Christians are the minority, then Heaven doesn't need to be that big.  The Bible states that this city is square in shape, and surrounded by a large wall, 144 cubits high (roughly 216 feet), with 3 gates on each of the four walls, for a total of 12 gates.  Of course these gates are made of pearls, with angels stationed at each one.  Will the inhabitants of Heaven have a key or a pass code to this gated community?  Will they be able to come and go as they please?  I'm not really sure why Heaven would need a large wall surrounding it.  This must be the first line of defense to keep sinners out.

The city of Heaven, and the streets thereof are described as being made of pure gold, like unto clear glass.  The wall surrounding Heaven is described as being made of 12 different precious stones, layered on top of each other, kind of like Legos©.  If that is the case, then each layer would be about 18 feet thick.  Heaven is a place built for a king.

It is obvious that the author is trying to make Heaven sound luxurious; a place that someone with great wealth resides.  The gold, precious stones, gates of pearl...These things have no true value; they are nothing more than rocks and stones polished up to be made to look pretty.  These items only have value, because man gives them value.  They are given value because they are rare, and not everyone can have them.  It's called supply and demand.  If everyone on the planet had an ample and equal amount of gold, then it wouldn't be worth diddley squat.  When everyone is rich, then no one is rich.

Now, I have a few questions about what living in Heaven is going to be like.  What am I going to be missing?

After Christians get there, then what?  How are they going to spend eternity in the most perfect place in the universe? What are they going to do to occupy their time?  Will they have jobs?  Hobbies?  What about pets?  Eternity is a long, long, long time.  Just what the heck are you going to do when you get there?

Christians claim that sin cannot enter Heaven.  This is one reason you must be cleansed of sin in order to get there.  If sin cannot enter Heaven, then how did Satan sin against God, and get himself thrown out?  I'm assuming Lucifer had free will, and then used his free will to try and overthrow God.  If Satan was able to commit such an atrocity in Heaven, then couldn't that happen again?   What about man's free will?  Will man have free will, or will they be like robots, which God did not want to create according to most Christians?  Couldn't some holier than thou Christian...Say someone like Jerry Falwell, size up God and think to himself, "you know what, I think I can take him..."  Maybe God learned his lesson, and no longer allows beings in whom he already knows (because of his omniscient's) are going to try and take over his kingdom.

The book of Revelation says that there is going to be a great war there (Rev. 12:7).  How can a war happen in such a perfect place?  Are Christians going to required to take up arms to help protect their lord and savior?  Wouldn't this war be kind of one sided?  It's supposed to the most powerful, omnipotent being in the whole universe against Satan and his minions.  Couldn't God prevent this thing from happening before it even got started?

When a person gets to Heaven, how are they going to have eternal bliss, knowing that some of their loved ones are being tormented in Hell?  Are your memory experiences on Earth going to be intact, or are you going to be stripped of it? Will you have Vietnam War like flashbacks?  

Will you still be married to the person you were married to on Earth, provided that they go to Heaven too?  What if you were married more than once, who will you be hooked up with?  Does everyone get a mansion, or can you shack up with someone if you want?  Will there be sex?  If you can have sex, does it have to be in a monogamous relationship or is it going to be like true Heaven where you get to have many partners at once? God is supposed to be a jealous god, a vengeful god, so emotions can be experienced in Heaven. Will the people there have similar emotions?

At what age will you be when you enter Heaven?  Is it the age at which you died, or will everyone be given new bodies representing an equal age?

When does a person actually go to Heaven, or Hell for that matter?  Many mainstream Christians, or at least all the Christians I've known, believe that a person goes to Heaven immediately following death.  They believe that a person's soul rises up out of their body and floats up to the sky to be with the Lord.  When a friend or loved one dies, Christians say things like, "Well at least they are in a better place...", or "Now they are with Jesus..."

I was taught in Bible study that when Jesus comes back to Earth, all the dead that believe in him, while they were alive, will be raised up out of the grave and taken into Heaven.  The living that believe in Jesus will be taken next, and those that do not believe, living or dead will be taken last.  And everyone, believers and non-believers will go face judgment.  So which is it?  Do you go to Heaven immediately after dying or do you have to wait around for thousands of years until the day of judgment?

If Heaven does exist, and only Christians are going there, this is how I imagine it to be...I imagine God sitting on his throne that is located at the center of Heaven.  All the Christians are gathered at the throne and walking around it in a counter-clockwise direction.  As the Christians march around the throne, they are chanting, "Hail God, hail to the Lord, praise the Father, praise Jesus...Hail God, hail to the Lord, praise the Father, Praise Jesus...Hail God...", etc., etc., etc.  This goes on forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever...This is the Christian's reward.


It's all a load of flat-earth rubbish. But the church has a vested interest in self-justification and propagation, however it's numbers are dwindling by the week. Is it really any wonder if you read all my posts on this thread? Is it really?

Wilson, superb post- you have great knowledge on this matter, and funnily enough the people who believe the Bible totally have not been able to refute any of your posts.

Luvsports- you sum up the scientific side of my argument very well. Not believing evolution and thinking the world is flat is simply ignorance; there is no way around it.

luvsports! wrote:Also like JS said, bacterial resistance to antibiotics, is proof of evolution as they adapt and evolve to withstand the antiobiotic. In clusters of bacteria, there will always be some that resist the med's (due to random mutation
The list of examples is really endless from former animals that used to see but now completely live underground, fish that have become resistant to toxic waste (hudson river fish), moths changing colour due to pollution, bears liking food more than food in the wild etc.

It makes me thing: Are people who deny evolution just too stupid and scientifically illiterate, or are they totally brainwashed?
I can understand people believing evolution is 'overseen' by God etc. but the flat out denial of evolution (like we have seen on this thread) confuses me.

Objectively I would like to say that religion has done some good in this world.

Art, music, architecture, sense of community, gives hope to many, peace to many.

But it has stunted growth in education and human intellect, homophobia, racism, has promoted slavery, subservient women, caused terrorism, wars and some other unutterable atrocities. 

Until religion rectifies some of this issues I cannot say religion is a force for good.

Final word I think goes to stephen hawking (former expert on black holes - watch how time and light cannot penetrate black holes and time stops working!)

"The question make no sense (whether god created the world) time didn’t exist before the big bang, so there is no time for god to make the universe in. Like asking directions towards the edge of the earth. The earth is a sphere, so looking for it is a futile exercise."

You say that JS but interestingly several religious people have won noble prizes. 
Many you see have said that evolution was created by god and agree with evolution as it supports their view.

Julia Santamaria wrote:

luvsports! wrote:Also like JS said, bacterial resistance to antibiotics, is proof of evolution as they adapt and evolve to withstand the antiobiotic. In clusters of bacteria, there will always be some that resist the med's (due to random mutation
The list of examples is really endless from former animals that used to see but now completely live underground, fish that have become resistant to toxic waste (hudson river fish), moths changing colour due to pollution, bears liking food more than food in the wild etc.

It makes me thing: Are people who deny evolution just too stupid and scientifically illiterate, or are they totally brainwashed?
I can understand people believing evolution is 'overseen' by God etc. but the flat out denial of evolution (like we have seen on this thread) confuses me.

There are two main reasons.  One is they aren't clued up in science, like my grandma (she is a very intelligent woman but simply not with science), and the second is they simply don't want to believe it.  If you are a religious person, you either make evolution part of the religion or you refuse to believe your bible is wrong.  A lot of the problems around the world are caused by people who refuse to believe something simply because they don't like the alternative.  Closed minded, but not always because they are simply stupid.

Religion is a drug, some people prefer one over the other, some have allergic reactions to one, but not another. Books for/about religion try to justify it's existence (and incarnations) using fables and fairly tales.

My condolences to the people of Tacloban, because religions and gods of men and women can provide no comfort to the suffering, and justifies such calamities based on previous sins and misdeeds.  

luvsports wrote:But it has stunted growth in education and human intellect, homophobia, racism, has promoted slavery, subservient women, caused terrorism, wars and some other unutterable atrocities.

Until religion rectifies some of this issues I cannot say religion is a force for good.

 

Till Religions of the world can cross-examine and question themselves, they behave as exclusive clubs with membership rights and dues. Each club is trying their best to outdo the others. It keeps telling it's members how exclusive they are, despite the fact that every human is a spitting image of god.  

luvsports! wrote:
Many you see have said that evolution was created by god and agree with evolution as it supports their view.

Yes, but it's funny how no holy books have mentioned evolution.
... but what do we expect? as long as we say the earth is not flat it's a step up.

When I wrote Religion in the title of my OP I never thought we would end up arguing the details of the bible, the Bhagavad Gita or the Tao. I wish I had not gone that direction.
 
I must say I am surprised by people from both sides taking those books by the letter, at the first degree when they probably never were intended to but more of a symbolic representation of our world, very much like the Greek mythology which is for instance actually key in psychological studies and understanding the mind's archetypes. I would also like to stress that in some people their inner belief is something sacred and I personally would not like to try to unsettle or break down with arguments something which in essence they place above everything including themselves. Those who do not believe have no system and no means to explain what in unexplainable so religions could simply be their way to rationalise a world which clearly is not. As one poster said above it is to respond to the WHY question...not the "HOW".
 
Like it or not our civilisation in the west is highly influenced through generations by the bible. Some have stuck by it for 4000 years other 2000 years and it shows in us. There is no point denying that as it is a stratum of our unconscious. The fact for instance we do not eat insects but they do in the rest of the world in one influence of the bible but it is certainly not the only one. And those here who argue hard against it probably underestimate the influence it has over them.
 
The reason I started this was typically to try to have a more scientific and experimental approach of life, not question the faith and religious dimension as clearly that cannot be resolved, even argued (As mentioned in my OP, but just simply trying to view from a more arguable, rational view.
 
Let's try again...If we fail we will close this thread.

FedererKing wrote:

Julia Santamaria wrote:

luvsports! wrote:Also like JS said, bacterial resistance to antibiotics, is proof of evolution as they adapt and evolve to withstand the antiobiotic. In clusters of bacteria, there will always be some that resist the med's (due to random mutation
The list of examples is really endless from former animals that used to see but now completely live underground, fish that have become resistant to toxic waste (hudson river fish), moths changing colour due to pollution, bears liking food more than food in the wild etc.

It makes me thing: Are people who deny evolution just too stupid and scientifically illiterate, or are they totally brainwashed?
I can understand people believing evolution is 'overseen' by God etc. but the flat out denial of evolution (like we have seen on this thread) confuses me.

There are two main reasons.  One is they aren't clued up in science, like my grandma (she is a very intelligent woman but simply not with science), and the second is they simply don't want to believe it.  If you are a religious person, you either make evolution part of the religion or you refuse to believe your bible is wrong.  A lot of the problems around the world are caused by people who refuse to believe something simply because they don't like the alternative.  Closed minded, but not always because they are simply stupid.

Fair points.

I must say I am surprised by people from both sides taking those books by the letter, at the first degree when they probably never were intended to but more of a symbolic representation of our world, very much like the Greek mythology

I am also surprised by people taking the books by the letter, I'm not the one following it.
Also in terms of other mythologies, I'd say Greek mythology is probably marginally more far fetched than Christian mythology.

Like it or not our civilisation in the west is highly influenced through generations by the bible.

Not only does it have massive influence all across the world (look at the battle against AIDS in Africa and the massive hit it took after people stopped using condoms due to the pope), but it also has huge huge power.

Tenez wrote:When I wrote Religion in the title of my OP I never thought we would end up arguing the details of the bible, the Bhagavad Gita or the Tao. I wish I had not gone that direction.
 
I must say I am surprised by people from both sides taking those books by the letter, at the first degree when they probably never were intended to but more of a symbolic representation of our world, very much like the Greek mythology which is for instance actually key in psychological studies and understanding the mind's archetypes. I would also like to stress that in some people their inner belief is something sacred and I personally would not like to try to unsettle or break down with arguments something which in essence they place above everything including themselves. Those who do not believe have no system and no means to explain what in unexplainable so religions could simply be their way to rationalise a world which clearly is not. As one poster said above it is to respond to the WHY question...not the "HOW".
 
Like it or not our civilisation in the west is highly influenced through generations by the bible. Some have stuck by it for 4000 years other 2000 years and it shows in us. There is no point denying that as it is a stratum of our unconscious. The fact for instance we do not eat insects but they do in the rest of the world in one influence of the bible but it is certainly not the only one. And those here who argue hard against it probably underestimate the influence it has over them.
 
The reason I started this was typically to try to have a more scientific and experimental approach of life, not question the faith and religious dimension as clearly that cannot be resolved, even argued (As mentioned in my OP, but just simply trying to view from a more arguable, rational view.
 
Let's try again...If we fail we will close this thread.

I am out of here.

Julia Santamaria wrote:Not only does it have massive influence all across the world (look at the battle against AIDS in Africa and the massive hit it took after people stopped using condoms due to the pope), but it also has huge huge power.

You see. This is the typical non-sense I do not want to read here.
 
You may also accuse Mother Nature to have given us a too strong sexual drive to reproduce. Where do you stop? Shall the pope say please use condoms and F** around as much as you wish?
 
You are constantly looking for compromise and when you have it you blame it.

Yes close this thread.

When people start saying you are doomed to death and hell, you know its not going well.

Closed it is! Shame though but it is fact that some we are not wise!