Re: Wimbledon 2013: Day 13 Men's Final

by N2D2L Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 pm

Can't believe Djokovic couldn't even take a set!!

by laverfan Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:47 pm

Tenez wrote:On neutral ground Djoko woudl win I am pretty sure.

Like USO 2012? Laugh

Julia Santamaria wrote:Pretty sure Murray hit more winners.

Yes.

Djokovic v Murray.

31	Winners	36
40	Unforced errors	21

Julia Santamaria wrote:Can't believe Djokovic couldn't even take a set!!

Neither did Murray in 2011? AO 2011? Did someone die?

2011 Australian Open Australia Hard F Djokovic, Novak 6-4, 6-2, 6-3

by gallery play Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:52 pm

Tenez wrote:
luvsports! wrote:This is an astounding act of generosity from andy murray, speechless 2bh, just fantastic!

"
[url=http://inagist.com/search?q=Andy Murray donated %C2%A31.6m]Andy Murray donated £1.6m[/url] #Wimbledon prize money to the cancer research and care at the [url=http://inagist.com/search?q=Royal Marsden Hospital]Royal Marsden Hospital[/url]."

Yes...that's very generous.

I disagree a bit with GP about Murray fully deserving it. He certainly worked really hard for it and deserves it...but to play v Murray and 20 000 people is quite a challenge and had this match been in Serbia it may have had a different result. It's easy to underestimate the power of a crowd, especially when you are on your own out there.

Djoko blames his defeat on his tiredness from his semi. he certainly tried to shorten the points. He hits less winners than Murray but more UEs...so it shows he was trying to force the issue and that view was even shared by the 30 tennis players backing Murray in my club.

Murray gave it all in those 3 sets. I thought that he had to win in 3....cause in set 4 and 5 it may have been a different story...he looked completely drained at the end too.

Again, 3 hours of gruelling tennis, no great shots I can remember though. Djoko has been throwing matches he shoudl have won recently. Quite a bit of them. I still don;t see a rivalry between the 2. On neutral ground Djoko woudl win I am pretty sure.

But what about the pressure on his shoulder from those 20.000 and what is it? 60.000.000 britains more who desperatly wanted this win?
I take my hat off for how he dealt with that. He must have had a heartbeat of 200 p/m that last game.

I really think he played better than Djoko for most of the match so he deserved it. He looked like he could handle Djoko's shots.

by Tenez Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:42 am

gallery play wrote:
But what about the pressure on his shoulder from those 20.000 and what is it? 60.000.000 britains more who desperatly wanted this win?
I take my hat off for how he dealt with that. He must have had a heartbeat of 200 p/m that last game.

I really think he played better than Djoko for most of the match so he deserved it. He looked like he could handle Djoko's shots.

Fair point about the pressure of 60k britons but it still remains a huge advantage when you have been playing in front of your crowd for long enough and he says it himself. The crowd has saved him a few times, v Verdasco, v Gasquet in teh past, certainly v Jerzy too, and again today. Ask Djoko what he would have preferred?

by gallery play Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:52 am

Basically you're right, the crowd do have an influence, that's what i said before the match too. But i thought Djoko was blocking that aspect pretty well and Andy didn't 'use' the crowd like he did against f.i. Verdasco. So i think it's too far streched to claim that the crowd was the main reason why Murray won. Murray was on top of his game, both mentally and physically, Djoko not.
Actually, a couple of months ago i predicted Murray would win Wimbledon (and asked Nitb to mark my words) so i don't really have to look for reasons, to me he's a better grass court player, and usually a better player on a fast court.

by Tenez Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:12 am

Let's see what the future holds....but to me there was something not quite clicking with Djoko's game yesterday (and I agree it has happened a bit more than in the past recently). He was trying to shorten the points way too much but we saw that when making the effort to extending rallies, it was Murray getting tired...and one woudl expect that covering 20% more ground using probably 20% muscle mass.

I'd say the weird part is how come Djoko was twice a break up (if not thrice in each set) and yet let it get past him. It's not difficult to imagine a crowd helping his protect those breaks up till sets....and match instead of cheering against him.

I however agree that Djoko did pretty well v the crowd but you coudl see at time he was inundated in the atmosphere and was looking for (some) crowd support from his team and teh few serbs. I just think he did not have the energy strangely enough.

I think we should be careful when talking aboiut winner/UEs when those 2 face each other. It was Djoko trying to dictate...once again.., don;t you agree with that?

The winner when murray rallies for 30 shots and then scrambles to a drop shot to hit past Djoko...is not telling the story of who is trying to dictate.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:56 am

Tenez wrote:but to play v Murray and 20 000 people is quite a challenge and had this match been in Serbia it may have had a different result. It's easy to underestimate the power of a crowd, especially when you are on your own out there.

Djoko blames his defeat on his tiredness from his semi. he certainly tried to shorten the points. He hits less winners than Murray but more UEs...so it shows he was trying to force the issue and that view was even shared by the 30 tennis players backing Murray in my club.

Murray gave it all in those 3 sets. I thought that he had to win in 3....cause in set 4 and 5 it may have been a different story...he looked completely drained at the end too.

Again, 3 hours of gruelling tennis, no great shots I can remember though. Djoko has been throwing matches he shoudl have won recently. Quite a bit of them. I still don;t see a rivalry between the 2. On neutral ground Djoko woudl win I am pretty sure.

It works both ways i.e. crowd support and the expectations that they have from you. The crowd can throw a player nuts and off his game completely, but it it can even crush you down under the weight of expectations. For this match I don't see crowd as any reason which affected the result of the match. Besides Djokovic has been in Slam finals many times and has faced maddening crowds.

Djokovic tired? Now I'm not willing to give him that, not after the AO 2012 win where he had lesser time against much more energy sapping opponents and far more time on court. The 5th set was a walk in the park for Djokovic, Delpo was fading with every moment. He himself says about those 'private' recovery routines. What happened to those?

Not a great match, I agree. Long rallies but the fact is they both lack skill and creativity to finish points and mainly try to force errors. Hence tennis was never going to be great.

Neutral ground? Naah their matches have always been close... Murray was only lacking in some self belief. Now he actually believes he can beat Djokovic.

by legendkillar Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:06 am

I was very impressed with how Murray served yesterday and how he served throughout the championships. I think Djokovic was trying to force the issue, however I think that was more because he couldn't put Murray away in the longer rallies. I think Djokovic mentally for the first time since FO 2012 allowed nerves to come in and un-settle him.

by Tenez Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:39 am

legendkillar wrote:I was very impressed with how Murray served yesterday and how he served throughout the championships. I think Djokovic was trying to force the issue, however I think that was more because he couldn't put Murray away in the longer rallies. I think Djokovic mentally for the first time since FO 2012 allowed nerves to come in and un-settle him.

Very true. There we agree. And this is where I differ with GP I guess. I am however convinced that had Djoko been a bit more confident about his stamina...or had he had a bit more stamina, I guess, he would have pushed the rallying further. Very similarly to his FO semi v Nadal, one felt he did not believe he coudl rely on his long rallying skills. In that respect he is not teh Djoko we have known and this explains why I gout the results wrong twice in a row now. ....something here I guess GP has been saying for long....yet every other match Djoko proves us both wrong...and right.

Regarding the crowd...it;s a huge factor. Saying that's the reason or not Murray won is irrelevant. We cannot "quantify" the impact. It's like Federer losing to nadal depending on how high the ball bounces. Impossible to say how much it affects the result....but it certainly affects it. As we saw yesterday, despite the 3 straight setter it was close and this last game was huge.

But anyway...though it's clear I am not a Murray fan...it would have saddened me to see a retriever like Djoko win 2 Wimbies. It was a lose lose situation for me...it's a bit more annoying....that's all.

by legendkillar Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:07 am

The crowds are rather fickle Ten. I can't remember them ever getting behind Tim in the manner they did Andy and I think a lot of that is the expectancy that Andy can win tournaments and even a Slam. Yes they were behind Murray, but I think the fact the lines people and the chair umpire were somewhat 'affected' by the crowd shows how intimidating it must've been. Djokovic allowed himself to get annoyed and that point in the 2nd that he argued was out was a massive turning point and the crowd climbed into him.

Djokovic in the 3rd became aggressive and impatient and was really looking to shorten points. I don't think Murray had the overall advantage in the longer points given the quality of Novak's ball striking, but you could see Djokovic was a tad nervous rallying. Especially with how the first 5 games went in the first set.

by Tenez Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Yes Djoko was a bit nervous. It was very important for Djoko to silence teh crowd by dominating early and leading which he never could.

Federer is again an unbelievable player in that respect as he could switch off from the USO crowd and play a sublime, much risquier tennis and deliver. In particular v Agassi in that US semi where it was so windy and a couple of years later in the final. He lost a set and half in the jungle that is the USO crowd in finals v American players but found a way to close the match like he was playing next to the calm of a mountain swiss lake. The noise was unbelievable despite the microphones doing their best to lessen the noise on TV.

Borg failed a few times in the US, Djoko clearly failed yesterday. Federer beat the best players with their crowd on their best surfaces and that includes Nadal on clay in Madrid!

by legendkillar Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:16 pm

I remember the US Open in 2005 when Federer played Agassi and it was a cauldron of fire for sure and alot if it not just because it was an American, but because I think it was expected that Agassi would retire after the match hence the expectant crowd. The 3rd set was an absolute body blow to Agassi and the crowd.

I think the crowd were nervous and Novak had an opportunity to silence the crowd, but I think he missed his chance and was always playing catch up. I think Novak will learn a lot from this and be stronger for it.

by noleisthebest Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:58 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes Djoko was a bit nervous. It was very important for Djoko to silence teh crowd by dominating early and leading which he never could.

Federer is again an unbelievable player in that respect as he could switch off from the USO crowd and play a sublime, much risquier tennis and deliver. In particular v Agassi in that US semi where it was so windy and a couple of years later in the final. He lost a set and half in the jungle that is the USO crowd in finals v American players but found a way to close the match like he was playing next to the calm of a mountain swiss lake. The noise was unbelievable despite the microphones doing their best to lessen the noise on TV.

Borg failed a few times in the US, Djoko clearly failed yesterday. Federer beat the best players with their crowd on their best surfaces and that includes Nadal on clay in Madrid!

That's a very good description.
I wonder if/how growing up in Switzerland and being able to see those majestic mountains from every corner of the country has shaped and affected his character.
He reflects quite a lot of it, in fact.
His tennis is just like those mountains: full of dramatic beauty.

by luvsports! Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:03 pm

How are you holding up nitb?
dont worry about it, novak will be back, just had an off day.

by noleisthebest Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:13 pm

luvsports! wrote:How are you holding up nitb?
dont worry about it, novak will be back, just had an off day.

I am "holding up" ok, thanks for asking LS.

I have not commented on the match because basically I actually haven't seen it. Just the first two and a half games. I knew Nole would lose it just by how he played those two games. He played without confidence and I noticed that in the long rallies he was losing against Haas and Delpo. I had the "seen it all before" feeling and was emotionally tense and "up in the air" a bit.
Naturally, you cannot kill hope, so I stropped on the sofa and tried to sleep on and off, regularly checking the score on my phone.

Reading about it, I am glad I never saw it.

My mum rang me after the match and left a message on the answering machine in her usual over the top style that drives me mad: " I am just calling you to share the pain. The whole Serbia is in pain"

That got me annoyed even more. Doesn't she know that you cannot share pain, only joy?

And then I heard some other things that just cemented me completely.

So, I am toughening it up a bit in this limbo called "time" and looking forward to USO, being awake at night watching tennis, eating cold grapes and feeling a bit less blue.

by Veejay Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:34 pm

Worst Wimbledon tournament ever!!
Yesterday was just horrible...I never thought there could ever be something worse then seeing Federer loose...
Boy was I wrong...seeing Murray win has to be the worst thing I have ever witnessed in tennis
I am still puking today at the horror of reliving it through every media source around

Very disappointed with Djokovic...apart from that one ace I remember,did he even get a single 1st serve in?
What the hell was up with his strategy coming into the net so much when he was winning the baseline rallies,and the drop shots on such big points?
Might have worked once or twice but it turned out to be very costly

Everyone can say what they want but the truth is Novak handed Murray the title on a silver plate..with all the errors coming from Djokovic,all Murray had to do was play a solid match..he didnt have to do anything remarkable or extrodinary to win the title
God...now we will NEVER hear the end of this...the commentators will be going on about it till the day they cremate Murray..I can already see how thy will scatter his ashes all over the Wimbledon centre court lawn while erecting a shrine
Pity it wasnt Novak who did it yesterday...ggrrr...

by gallery play Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:40 pm

Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I was very impressed with how Murray served yesterday and how he served throughout the championships. I think Djokovic was trying to force the issue, however I think that was more because he couldn't put Murray away in the longer rallies. I think Djokovic mentally for the first time since FO 2012 allowed nerves to come in and un-settle him.

Very true. There we agree. And this is where I differ with GP I guess.

I do not claim that Murray plays more agressive than Djoko, so that's not where we differ. All we differ on is our gut feeling when those 2 meet.

Djoko indeed didn't had a killer shot to hurt Murray. I found his crosscourt FH is not as effective on grass than on a sticky HC. Without the spin Murray was able to retrieve from just a yard behind the baseline which made it almost impossible for Djoko to find an ankle.
Another key factor was Murrays returning: Djoko basically had no free points. No wonder he was 'forcing the issue' at some point. However Djoko is still the king of the 20+ shot rallies, even yesterday. Although in the third he probably felt his legs because he started to hit dropshots from everywhere. This only gave Murray the opportunity to demonstrate his explosiveness (and handiness actually)

by Tenez Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:18 pm

gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I was very impressed with how Murray served yesterday and how he served throughout the championships. I think Djokovic was trying to force the issue, however I think that was more because he couldn't put Murray away in the longer rallies. I think Djokovic mentally for the first time since FO 2012 allowed nerves to come in and un-settle him.

Very true. There we agree. And this is where I differ with GP I guess.

I do not claim that Murray plays more agressive than Djoko, so that's not where we differ. All we differ on is our gut feeling when those 2 meet.

Certainly....the thing I dislike both styles...similar styles actually except that Djoko can do it with less muscle mass.

This only gave Murray the opportunity to demonstrate his explosiveness (and handiness actually)

Well Murray is everywhere on the court. His legs are huge and allows him to move his rugby type body like tinkerbell moves hers. This mouvement and power compensates for a weaker mind. Without it Murray woudl have lost convincingly v Verdasco and Jerzy.....and that is what I don't like. Yes same with Djoko....just a bit less added muscle mass.

by legendkillar Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:02 am

Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:
legendkillar wrote:I was very impressed with how Murray served yesterday and how he served throughout the championships. I think Djokovic was trying to force the issue, however I think that was more because he couldn't put Murray away in the longer rallies. I think Djokovic mentally for the first time since FO 2012 allowed nerves to come in and un-settle him.

Very true. There we agree. And this is where I differ with GP I guess.

I do not claim that Murray plays more agressive than Djoko, so that's not where we differ. All we differ on is our gut feeling when those 2 meet.
Certainly....the thing I dislike both styles...similar styles actually except that Djoko can do it with less muscle mass.

This only gave Murray the opportunity to demonstrate his explosiveness (and handiness actually)

Well Murray is everywhere on the court. His legs are huge and allows him to move his rugby type body like tinkerbell moves hers. This mouvement and power compensates for a weaker mind. Without it Murray woudl have lost convincingly v Verdasco and Jerzy.....and that is what I don't like. Yes same with Djoko....just a bit less added muscle mass.

I think because Verdasco has a history of chucking the towel in mentally in matches always made it likely Andy could turn the match around. He was serving so well and one bad service game would cost him the match and it did. Andy still being able to hang in matches even when behind on the score has changed his fortunes in tennis around. I do hope I never witness such poor passive play from Murray again. It was like he hadn't played tennis or something. Powderpuff stuff for 3 sets. Jerzy you have to put it down to experience. It would be huge to expect him to have won that match and mentally keep himself emotionally turned off for hours on a court. Again like Djokovic allowed one moment in the match to get under his skin. Jerzy I would expect it from, but Djokovic never which made it the more surprising.

by Tenez Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:10 am

But what makes Murray so tough to play is that he can retrieve anything and that make the goal posts very small for the attacking players. If it becomes easier to pull winners, less pressure then and much easier to cross the lines. This is why in the 90s it was players going for their shots who were winning everywhere bar clay.

Again, it's that fitness that made the difference. Having near Bolt speed with Gebrelasie stamina kills teh attacking game...even at Wimbledon.

Now how you get a rugby player to have the stamina of a marathinian and still be able to pull powerful shots is the $1million question.

by legendkillar Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:28 am

But then Murray doesn't really have a powerful shot as such. The BH maybe, but then that is always over the lowest part of the net. Anyhow both Nadal and Federer weigh more than Andy despite being smaller in height Winking

However I find the whole muscle look grotesque to look at.

It is the million dollar question Tenbo and anyone I speak to involved in sport at intermediate level have always said to elevate their performance to the next level requires assistance Winking

I ask the question of how much naughty stuff is out on the market because I don't believe WADA even know themselves.

by Tenez Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:38 am

legendkillar wrote:But then Murray doesn't really have a powerful shot as such.

No but Murray's shot are still pacy and quite safe.....thanks to muscling the ball. You can see when once in a full moon he hits flat and loose and the pace is just huge. But most of the time it's spinny, controlled....he muscles it like Roddick. It helps immensely to cut down on UEs.

Regarding what helps them, I am sure 98% do take help but you can see some players have also added muscle mass on top of all the stamina drugs. If yuo look at teh legs of some of those players it's ridiculous.

by legendkillar Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:45 am

True.

I think they should do a study into training techniques of athletes across all sports and just see if they can reach a similar physical level. Aside from the skills required by sports, take that out of the equation. Have a study that shows through the training techniques these athletes use, just see if similar or the same levels of fitness can be achieved just through training alone. Even though I would have a rough idea of the outcome, it would certainly shed light on how much of the physical conditioning is down to old fashioned training smiley

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:59 am

I don't think you need any studies LK, just remember how Mac looked/played, or Lendl is a better example I suppose as he probably did all he possibly could in terms of fitness.

by Tenez Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:07 am

legendkillar wrote:True.

I think they should do a study into training techniques of athletes across all sports and just see if they can reach a similar physical level. Aside from the skills required by sports, take that out of the equation. Have a study that shows through the training techniques these athletes use, just see if similar or the same levels of fitness can be achieved just through training alone. Even though I would have a rough idea of the outcome, it would certainly shed light on how much of the physical conditioning is down to old fashioned training

Even easier. Let's allocate a tester to share life with top athletes like top athletes share life with trainers, coaches and so on. So a daily test done for 6 to 12 months. Then see if that performance goes down.

I think all top 5 or 10 athletes in every sport shoudl have an independant tester going with them testing them everyday. If they can afford a racquet stringer to travel with them surely they can contribute to their clean image and pay for a tester too.

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:29 am

Tenez wrote: Even easier. Let's allocate a tester to share life with top athletes like top athletes share life with trainers, coaches and so on. So a daily test done for 6 to 12 months. Then see if that performance goes down.

I think all top 5 or 10 athletes in every sport shoudl have an independant tester going with them testing them everyday. If they can afford a racquet stringer to travel with them surely they can contribute to their clean image and pay for a tester too.

That would really be something...
I would love to see the slam distribution in the last 20 years if somehow magically we had all the tests available/published for all the players over that period.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:40 am

noleisthebest wrote:
Tenez wrote: Even easier. Let's allocate a tester to share life with top athletes like top athletes share life with trainers, coaches and so on. So a daily test done for 6 to 12 months. Then see if that performance goes down.

I think all top 5 or 10 athletes in every sport shoudl have an independant tester going with them testing them everyday. If they can afford a racquet stringer to travel with them surely they can contribute to their clean image and pay for a tester too.

That would really be something...
I would love to see the slam distribution in the last 20 years if somehow magically we had all the tests available/published for all the players over that period.

Slams results of Agassi and Lendl might suffer if that happened. Maybe Becker too.

by noleisthebest Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:53 am

And I'd have the same over WTA. After all, they are paid the same if not often more than men.
I am all for fire and passion, but have found myself being a bit bamboozled by this continuous and aggressive fist-pumping and growling from women these days.
I find it a bit unnatural.

.

by BlueClay Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:50 am

noleisthebest wrote:
droogle wrote:Is there any way in which Murray can play smarter rather than just playing better?
I don't really see it myself. . . Novak is playing smart with his forehand repertoire.

I think it's difficult for Murray to play smart against Nole.
Murray's "smart" used to be his endless BH slices counter-punching, now he is hitting his FH as hard as he can while he can ( usually a set or two max).
He'd need all the variety under the sun to dislodge Nole from his groove, plus tons of belief and confidence to last in that mode, which is where the crowd comes in.
I wish I was there for Nole today, 15000 people noise effect would be annuled no problem just like in O2 last year....
I hope it doesn't matter in the end

OMG NITB, are you ever right about anything.

Murray has been the better grass court player for the past year, hello!

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