BlueClay...where are you?

What do you make of today's match? Do you still see Nadal sweeping everything on clay?

To me Nadal looked more vulnerable than ever today, it was written all over his face.
He threw everything he had in that match at Novak and came short and toothless.

I don't think he is going to look forward to the rest of the season very much.

We have to be very thankful to ATP for the enforcement of 25 second rule.

He certainly looked shaky when it mattered but it is more v Dimi that I found him weak. Versus Djoko you expect him to crumble once Djoko throws 20+ rallies, especially with the 25s rule.

Dimi is a relatively young player with a SHBH. It should have been a straight forward win for Nadal but managed to lose a set 6/2. Even against Tsonga, Tsonga had 2 BPs for first break in the second set ....and that despite terrible win.

Nadal will still be very tough to beat. No doubt simply cause the ball he sends is so hard to handle. But frankly I am convinced that a few players can do what Djoko did today. not as well in the rallying part but sometimes better in the attacking part.

The season is pretty open....The man to beat is Djoko though!

Tenez wrote:

The season is pretty open....The man to beat is Djoko though!

Yes, and they all know it, Nadal included. A formidable task...door open only to Federer in Wimbledon.

Tenez wrote:
Dimi is a relatively young player with a SHBH. It should have been a straight forward win for Nadal but managed to lose a set 6/2. Even against Tsonga, Tsonga had 2 BPs for first break in the second set ....and that despite terrible win.

Nadal will still be very tough to beat. No doubt simply cause the ball he sends is so hard to handle. But frankly I am convinced that a few players can do what Djoko did today. not as well in the rallying part but sometimes better in the attacking part.
The season is pretty open....The man to beat is Djoko though!

Yes, and strangely, I give more chance to the younger players, they seem to show more belief (Dimitrov, Gulbis), Raonic is turning out to be a big points choker, unfortunately.

I still have some hope in Berankis, too. He played a few excellent matches on clay in Houston, destroyed Haas in the QF, lost narrowly in the SF to the eventual winner- Isner.
He is aggressive in the right measure, not an all-out case like Dolgopolov who I love watching on clay. I just wish he could sort his temper a little bit, just a little, little bit.
All in all, exciting tennis months ahead....after so long it's not all a boring, predictable Nadal washout!

Interesting post SR from this fan.

But what really surprises me is that Nadal's game has actually always been about fear: In essence the fear to make an UE! this is why he plays with so much margin and it's bizarre this fan did not see that before.

Even versus Federer, Davydenko, Verdasco, Delpo, and almost any other players, Nadal starts with fear! the fear only goes away after long rallies and as the match develops he starts to sense his opponent tiring. This is when he start to show his pump up arm and gain confidence, only then the fear disappears.

Versus Djoko he knows he is likely to get tired first and this is why he is in constant fear...from start to finish. On that occasion he has a good reason to be scared he knows the match is not in his racquet.

But I would like to say once again what I have always said about mental strength in today's tennis....it's almost inexistant. It's simply the fittest who feels mentally stronger and wins.

In 2011 it was clear than Djoko felt he coudl run for ever and played Nadal without fear. For some reasons in 2012 his form was not as good and rushing on omay points and that made him "mentally weaker" like in pre-2011 seasons. But again, today he knew he would be able to go the distance and that helped him so much relax in that 2nd set from break down. Had he been tired and with a rush to close the second set, he may have been under too much pressure and fail but it was actually Nadal who was desperate to close that set despite being a break up (for fitness reasons)....and this is also why he cracked.

Djoko cansend a few long rallies at will and win or lose them he knows he will cash easy points behind cause Nadal takes more time to recover.

When Nadal, Djoko and Murray are playing there are no mental game. It's all about fitness. This Rafa fan shoudl know that.

Ah...now you took away the post!

Amri has disappeared too

Larry would have come back had Nadal won.

Tenez wrote:Ah...now you took away the post!

Sorry for being indecisive and thanks for helping. Here's the deleted post reinstated:

No he ain’t going to sweep the clay season. The ultimate
reason for this is not so much to do with his game but his increasingly
declining form (read: FITNESS!!) along with mental sharpness as a result of
natural aging.

As OTF has been accused of constantly generating negative press against nadal
by anti-Nadal members, I’d like to cut-and-paste a post written by a NADAL FAN
with relevant details matching my own view. Natasa’s honesty and willingness to
critique her idol caught my attention. Let’s hear it from the perspective of a frustrated
nadal fan how the aging king of clay is missing the mental drive of old,
causing his game (read: FITNESS) to break down and thus, imo, lessening his
chances to sweep the clay season.

http://www.nadalnews.com/2013/04/21/mc-thats-the-sport/comment-page-1/#comment-203548


Natasa wrote:
“ya,ya,ya,yaaaa! bla,bla, with his positive talk after match!
the problem is absence of positive thoughts & feelings ON court!
Rafa was not himself today in terms of mental strength , there was no
self-belief he can win !!!
while Novak did what he said yesterday;”I am going out there to win, not to
play my best. This is how l am going to feel tomorrow”! Smart !!!

EXACTLY !

This kind of marketing and thinking is what does good to a player! Not
Rafa’s modest, quote: “If l am lucky…it will be hard…” bla,bla! That talk is
full of fear! Yes, you can feel fear but do not show it ! You don’t play to try
to play your best, you play to win !!!

I am sad not because Rafa lost! He must lose sometime, his MC crown is not
eternal! I am sad because he didn’t show me why l love him so much! He was afraid, he
was nervous and l don’t like seeing Rafa this way! Unfortunately, it seemed as
2011 scenario !

He had 6:5 lead in the 2nd! He could take the match into 3rd set and what
happens then- happens, no big deal! I am interested in what is going on with
Nadal’s mental stability in the 2 nd set? He had the same problem with Tsonga, couldn’t close the match at 5:1 lead, not in 5:2 … it is very strange, very unsual !

It has nothing to do with being 100% fit, it is not physical question. This
is becoming common thing with Rafa! (Remember AO 5th set, he had 4:2 lead and
serving for 5:2 but he failed… )

It makes me very sad that his team has no wisdom in working on Rafa’s
mentality and marketing. Tired of same old modest phrases telling us nothing!”

If you look at his behaviour on court several years ago, when he was
jumping, his fist pumped up, his leg up, celebrating his winners with so much
power and self confidence, he seemed so dangerous, he seemed so strong, so
invincible ! he was like an angry tiger ! Rafa today is not that Rafa ! Rafa
today is more like a monk !

The loss today is hard because of his unusual mistakes and unusual
appearance on court. He looked as he is there just doing his job, while Novak
was there to win ! This is what makes me feel very disappointed… the
attitude!"

Tenez wrote:Interesting post SR from this fan.

But what really surprises me is that Nadal's game has actually always been about fear: In essence the fear to make an UE! this is why he plays with so much margin and it's bizarre this fan did not see that before.

Even versus Federer, Davydenko, Verdasco, Delpo, and almost any other players, Nadal starts with fear! the fear only goes away after long rallies and as the match develops he starts to sense his opponent tiring. This is when he start to show his pump up arm and gain confidence, only then the fear disappears.

Versus Djoko he knows he is likely to get tired first and this is why he is in constant fear...from start to finish. On that occasion he has a good reason to be scared he knows the match is not in his racquet.

But I would like to say once again what I have always said about mental strength in today's tennis....it's almost inexistant. It's simply the fittest who feels mentally stronger and wins.

In 2011 it was clear than Djoko felt he coudl run for ever and played Nadal without fear. For some reasons in 2012 his form was not as good and rushing on omay points and that made him "mentally weaker" like in pre-2011 seasons. But again, today he knew he would be able to go the distance and that helped him so much relax in that 2nd set from break down. Had he been tired and with a rush to close the second set, he may have been under too much pressure and fail but it was actually Nadal who was desperate to close that set despite being a break up (for fitness reasons)....and this is also why he cracked.

Djoko cansend a few long rallies at will and win or lose them he knows he will cash easy points behind cause Nadal takes more time to recover.

When Nadal, Djoko and Murray are playing there are no mental game. It's all about fitness. This Rafa fan shoudl know that.

Yes and no, T. If it's ALL about fitness than Ferrer would be #1. Must go now, will be back later to substantiate my disagreement......

Veejay wrote:Amri has disappeared too

Hey, watch it, didn't you just re-emerge from your glass house?

SR wrote:Yes and no, T. If it's ALL about fitness than Ferrer would be #1. Must go now, will be back later to substantiate my disagreement......

Yes. This is a fair point. There 2 points which differentiates Ferrer from the other top 3.

1 - You will always have players with a mental problem: Ferrer, Verdasco, Coria etc...who are known choker and never will be because of that number 1, or even win a slam.

2 - I was talking about guys who are so focused in their game that the mind plays a negligeable part as their game is simply based on fitness. Nadal Djoko and Murray for instance play with lots of margins. Ferrer's on the other hand is physically weaker and therefore his shots need to be a tiny bit riskier than the other 3. He needs to go for more. He has an excellent stamina but still needs to aim for net and line a bit closer than the other 3. Nadal and Murray muscles the ball a bit more than Ferrer and that is added confidence for their minds. You may have actually noticed that Nadal and Murray miss a fair share of easy attacking points when it matters. Yesterday was quite obvious to see Nadal producing UEs cause he had to shorten the rallies. Murray is bloody known for that too.

I do not consider those 2 (Nadal, Murray) strong mentally BUT they are great fighter and will never give up, which for me is quite different.

OK, I hear you and agree with most of your analysis.

But I interpret the matches bet Djoko, Nadal and Murray a bit differently.
I don’t think fitness alone can get the job done for these 3 or any other player. Let’s go back
to the final yesterday. I’m afraid your fitness thesis is not consistent with
what I saw. I saw that nadal who didn’t win the match seemed to be the fitter
of the two. There wasn’t a time throughout the entire match when he looked
tired. He was just as powerful and fit as when he won his 3 recent titles from
lower-ranked players. But yesterday the same fitness wasn’t enough to measure
up to a far greater challenge posed by a far superior opponent. So in my mind,
nadal lost not because he was less fit but because his game fell short.

On the other hand Djoko didn’t win because he was fitter then Nadal. He wasn’t. We
saw that especially in the 2^nd set when he was huffing, puffing and “retiring”
from exhaustion when nadal broke his serve. You might have seen my comments pointing
out that Djoko was tiring and losing a bit of focus but nadal still going
strong. Not a sign of fatigue. GP at once lost confidence in Djoko and said
that nadal was sure to come back to win the match.

To me, Djoko’s timely recovery to even out the score didn’t mean he was fitter but
that he was mentality tougher and technically more competent to get the job
done. By contrast, Nadal’s uncharacteristic unforced errors didn’t mean he was
less fit, but that he was mentally broken and caved in like never before,
causing him to lose control of his game.

So I disagree that it’s all down to fitness. I believe a mental side of the game
does exist and is equally important to the fitness factor. You need both
fitness and mental toughness to have maximum control of the game. That’s why despite
looking fitter, nadal lost because he was missing the mental sharpness. Djoko won
because, for whatever reason, he was the one who came in charged with greater self-believe.
And I believe Djoko’s psychological advantage of superior confidence was the
different that enabled him to produce a better game to win.

PS, now I see why lydian et al wanted to kick you out of v2, t, you're a stubborn guy with your fitness thesis.

PPS,Oh, just add Consistency to Fitness, then we're on the same page.

SR wrote:I saw that nadal who didn’t win the match seemed to be the fitter
of the two. There wasn’t a time throughout the entire match when he looked
tired. He was just as powerful and fit as when he won his 3 recent titles from
lower-ranked players. But yesterday the same fitness wasn’t enough to measure
up to a far greater challenge posed by a far superior opponent. So in my mind,
nadal lost not because he was less fit but because his game fell short.

What we see is actually deceiptive. How many times did we see Djoko on his knees the last 3 years and yet went on to win further tough 3 and 5 setters the following days? Nadal looks the fittest but he simply isn't! Well he is in the Power/stamina ratio....but not in pure stamina terms and this is why he loses twice as many long rallies v Djoko. This is the key stat of the match. The fitter player woudl be happy to extend the rally at will (and that is exactly what Nadal tries to do versus everybody else) but not versus Djoko!!! Bar a few points where Djoko tries to get a short points (which cost him the second set almost), he is quite happy to throw the long rallies knowing that Nadal with his big muscles will tire before him, especially since Djoko uses Nadal's power to send the ball back while Nadal has no choice but to pull those heavy, energy consuming, topspin. Hence Nadal trying to hit a winner after a 10 shot rally. Nadal's problem is even more emphasised now that he has only 25s to recover. And we saw how he tried to extend that time limit as much as possible. This is the proof Djoko himself knows he is fitter. Have you watched the 2011 USO final??? Can you honestly say that Nadal is fitter? Nadal had an easy forthnight while Djoko had tough matches on his way to the final. The thing is fans want to see the mental side of the game, but professional players simply talk about fitness, how to get fitter all the time.

On the other hand Djoko didn’t win because he was fitter then Nadal. He wasn’t. We
saw that especially in the 2^nd set when he was huffing, puffing and “retiring”
from exhaustion when nadal broke his serve. You might have seen my comments pointing
out that Djoko was tiring and losing a bit of focus but nadal still going
strong. Not a sign of fatigue.

Yes I saw that, but does it mean anything with Djoko? Nothing at all if you ask me! He was huffing puffing, in all his matches versus Nadal and Murray yet, like yesterday he always win by throwing further long rallies and it;s the opposition with big muscles which tires first.

GP at once lost confidence in Djoko and said
that nadal was sure to come back to win the match.

It's actually GP who noticed first, some time ago, that Djoko was never tired even when he pretended to be. That is why I was surprised he lost belief in Djoko yesterday.

To me, Djoko’s timely recovery to even out the score didn’t mean he was fitter but
that he was mentality tougher and technically more competent to get the job
done. By contrast, Nadal’s uncharacteristic unforced errors didn’t mean he was
less fit, but that he was mentally broken and caved in like never before,
causing him to lose control of his game.

When Djoko was not that fit (pre-11), he lost many matches versus Nadal in a pretty close manner. Remember that semi Final in Madrid 09 and many others? Only when he got considerably fitter in 11 thanks to his glutten free diet that he started to win his matches v Nadal and more often v Federer. It woudl be difficult to deny the physical link to that new mental strength from Djoko. Look at last year, what happened to his mental strength? It did not help him much did it? cause it was clear he was not as fit as 11 and 13.

PS, now I see why lydian et al wanted to kick you out of v2, t, you're a stubborn guy with your fitness thesis.

Yes except that now they all agree with it bar you.

Alright, T, you've elaborated the fitness situation more clearly now. What do I know? I'm an art historian, you're the tennis expert. So I defer to you.

About Djoko's 2012 dip in form, if I remember correctly VJ told me he learned from THASP that the Serb's "help" routine is one year on one year off. And 2011 is the "off" year. In retrospect now, that could explain why the "odd" year.

In fact the main difference between those 2 (Nadal and Djoko) is that Djoko's technique is less energy consuming. Djoko can take the ball earlier and use Nadal's energy. That's why Djoko lasts longer. Djoko (and Nadal) knows that and it helps tremendously mentally knowing that the more the match advances the more likely he is to win.

Look even at the FO12, Nadal was the "stronger mentally" at first but as Nadal tired who got "mentally stronger"? it's very clear it was the rain that saved Nadal in that final.

My job has nothing to do with tennis either but it is true I quite like the game and know pretty much what tennis is about noawdays. If we were talking about the 90s, then sure at the time the mental side was huge. Goran v Pete or Agassi v Pete shows clearly how mind interferes but nowadays? It's more to do about lungs and legs at teh very top.

Tenez wrote:It's more to do about lungs and legs at teh very top.

Aha, good to see you have amended your previous "all" to "more".

In general, I'd say you don't need any special talent to understand tennis. Just good old common sense and astute observation go a long way.

SR wrote:

Tenez wrote:It's more to do about lungs and legs at teh very top.

Aha, good to see you have amended your previous "all" to "more".

In general, I'd say you don't need any special talent to understand tennis. Just good old common sense and astute observation go a long way.

Exactly. Though playing helps also a lot understanding what it takes running right and left and more so doing it at a fast pace. Before people were arguing that we could not be tired in a 3 setter let alone a set. The fact is a couple of long rallies at a high pace can do lots of dammage...especially in the talent department. If you read a bit on v2 it was funny to read Lydian admitting to it now while he was denying it then.

Tenez wrote:In fact the main difference between those 2 (Nadal and Djoko) is that Djoko's technique is less energy consuming. Djoko can take the ball earlier and use Nadal's energy. That's why Djoko lasts longer. Djoko (and Nadal) knows that and it helps tremendously mentally knowing that the more the match advances the more likely he is to win.

Yes, Nole takes a ball earlier and it shows that he has much better hand-eye move coordination and feeling for the game. Every player knows this, but nobody is able do it with Nadal. And that is why is Nole the best player at the moment.

No stamina wins the match, it is only prerequisition as a good help for a win. I saw so many super athletes with huge lungs on courts, but they run out so early out of the breath and then only digged themselves out at the back on the court and waited for a ball. The same example is Nole with Nadal.

paulcz wrote:No stamina wins the match, it is only prerequisition as a good help for a win.

Hi paulcz,I think my understanding of the game is closer to yours. Fitness is the foundation. You than have to build on that and complement that with the relevant tennis skill sets and mind-set. Is this what you have in mind?

Tenez wrote: Ferrer's on the other hand is physically weaker and therefore his shots need to be a tiny bit riskier than the other 3..

Nole's positioning and ball placing is much more aggressive than Feru, longer shots and closer to the lines. Nole plays with Feru as a cat with a mouse. Quite the contrary is truth.

Tenez wrote:I do not consider those 2 (Nadal, Murray) strong mentally BUT they are great fighter and will never give up, which for me is quite different.

Nadal is very strong mentally. When he believes himself that his game is efficient he is able to play with a brilliant focus and practically without any mistakes. But only to the moment when a scythe hit a stone. I think everybody knows what does that mean

SR wrote:

paulcz wrote:No stamina wins the match, it is only prerequisition as a good help for a win.

Hi paulcz,I think my understanding of the game is closer to yours. Fitness is the foundation. You than have to build on that and complement that with the relevant tennis skill sets and mind-set. Is this what you have in mind?

Hi SR, yes, that is right. Ten really focuses on stamina too much. The problem comes from the fact that all top players are great stamina wise.

T, lydian didn't mind long rallies before because nadal was best doing this. Now others are out-rallying nadal, of course it becomes a bad thing.

All due respect to the new generation hitting 100-shot rallies. Common sense tells us if talent were available, it would be used preferably to end the point quickly and economically. Now the problem with nadal is when being out-rallied by the fitter guys, he doesn't have the fitness to match; neither does he know what to do with the ball to and get in the position to hit winners. It's not something that comes naturally to him. So I think he's in trouble now, even in clay.

SR wrote:T, lydian didn't mind long rallies before because nadal was best doing this. Now others are out-rallying nadal, of course it becomes a bad thing.

All due respect to the new generation hitting 100-shot rallies. Common sense tells us if talent were available, it would be used preferably to end the point quickly and economically. Now the problem with nadal is when being out-rallied by the fitter guys, he doesn't have the fitness to match; neither does he know what to do with the ball to and get in the position to hit winners. It's not something that comes naturally to him. So I think he's in trouble now, even in clay.

Exactly. I think you wrote something which must be drilled deeply in his head. His moonballing weakened his mindset to play winners and it was obvious that he gradually lose the guts to play at the front of the court. The worst thing is that his game is so built on his physicality, that he is not able to change anything.

Nole does know this very well. He really slowed down the game in the second set and played some loopy balls to break Nadal's spirit definitely by an extending rally. But that did not work and Nadal played some nice overhead smashes. When Nole saw that Nadal still was at high spirit, he took an iniciative definitely in his hands, stepped forward and clinched the match.

paulcz wrote:

Tenez wrote:In fact the main difference between those 2 (Nadal and Djoko) is that Djoko's technique is less energy consuming. Djoko can take the ball earlier and use Nadal's energy. That's why Djoko lasts longer. Djoko (and Nadal) knows that and it helps tremendously mentally knowing that the more the match advances the more likely he is to win.

Yes, Nole takes a ball earlier and it shows that he has much better hand-eye move coordination and feeling for the game. Every player knows this, but nobody is able do it with Nadal. And that is why is Nole the best player at the moment.

A lot of players can do that versus Nadal but they all come short being able to do that over the distance....they do not have that "foundation" as you call it. Wawrinka's technique and talent are also better than Nadal AND Djoko but because he knows his talent will vanish quickly after long rallies, Stan is under mental pressure to pull a winner way too early, often when too risky. Djoko can choose when to go for a winner, he is under no physical pressure, whereas for Nadal this is new territory...he knows he needs to shorten rallies if he does not want to lose twice as many points as Djoko.

Djoko is not particularly talented but his stamina/talent ratio is certainly better than Nadal.

No stamina wins the match, it is only prerequisition as a good help for a win. I saw so many super athletes with huge lungs on courts, but they run out so early out of the breath and then only digged themselves out at the back on the court and waited for a ball. The same example is Nole with Nadal.

Doesn't that defeat your argument about Nadal? You say he is only fitness and it is that fitness that gave him 11 slams!...considerably more than Djoko.

The fact is Djoko is simply a more energy friendly version of Nadal, thanks to a bit more talent.

paulcz wrote:

Tenez wrote: Ferrer's on the other hand is physically weaker and therefore his shots need to be a tiny bit riskier than the other 3..

Nole's positioning and ball placing is much more aggressive than Feru, longer shots and closer to the lines. Nole plays with Feru as a cat with a mouse. Quite the contrary is truth.

I agree with that actually but Ferrer still has less margins than Nadal and Murray.

Nadal is very strong mentally. When he believes himself that his game is efficient he is able to play with a brilliant focus and practically without any mistakes. But only to the moment when a scythe hit a stone. I think everybody knows what does that mean

That is not what I call mental strength. Mental strength is mental strength....it is not dependant on fitness in theory whereas Nadal's mental strength is all about fitness. Just see him crack times and again when he knows the longer the match the less likely he is to win!!!! Nadal plays without making mistakes cause his game is simply about hitting the ball safe. But when he is asked to pull winners, he indeed does quite a bit of mistakes, especially on the key points as we saw yesterday!!!!

SR wrote:T, lydian didn't mind long rallies before because nadal was best doing this. Now others are out-rallying nadal, of course it becomes a bad thing.

Yes, exactly what I said in another thread.

All due respect to the new generation hitting 100-shot rallies. Common sense tells us if talent were available, it would be used preferably to end the point quickly and economically. Now the problem with nadal is when being out-rallied by the fitter guys, he doesn't have the fitness to match; neither does he know what to do with the ball to and get in the position to hit winners. It's not something that comes naturally to him. So I think he's in trouble now, even in clay.

Yes. The problem with talent is that it is the first thing that gets affected as the rally extends. Talent is like a very sharp blade, it gets blunt very easily. An axe lasts much longer. Nadal was the axe that destroyed Fed's blade. Djoko has something in bteween and it's quite efficient on clay and slow courts. But Fed has always had teh sharpest blade. The problem is that he was trained to slay tennis players not to fell trees, like players are nowadays!

Tenez wrote:Wawrinka's technique and talent are also better than Nadal AND Djoko but because he knows his talent will vanish quickly after long rallies .

Ten, you probably drink too much. Wawrinka more talented against Nole You totally mixes up the beauty to play single shots and tennis ability on courts. I am sorry but this discussion is worthless.

Tenez wrote: You say he is only fitness and it is that fitness that gave him 11 slams!...considerably more than Djoko

Although I did not want to open this topic about Nadal's strength, there is nothing secret about it. Nadal's powerful tennis looks easy, but his tactics is worked out properly against the best players. He is not only one of the best stamina and power wise, but he has an excellent eye-hand coordination and reads the game pretty well. IMO Nadal actually reads Fed's game better than Nole.

Tbh, if Nadal had been learnt an attacking tennis from his childhood, he would have a better chance to succeed with Nole than he has nowadays. Now, it is too late

Tenez wrote:Mental strength is mental strength....it is not dependant on fitness in theory whereas Nadal's mental strength is all about fitness. Just see him crack times and again when he knows the longer the match the less likely he is to win!!!! Nadal plays without making mistakes cause his game is simply about hitting the ball safe. But when he is asked to pull winners, he indeed does quite a bit of mistakes, especially on the key points as we saw yesterday!!!!

Yesterday match was clearly won by Nole stepping up to the court and going for winners. Nole's slowing down of the game just did not work out properly. That showed how strong mentally Nole is.

Except playing with Nole, I do not see anybody else with whom Nadal would struggle mentally. Fed looks like a pile of misfortune when playing a key points and recently even at the beginning of the match and this has not been only due to a worse stamina. The feedback of your mental strength is shown by amount of easy errors, and Nadal does less than Fed for sure.

paulcz wrote:

Tenez wrote:Wawrinka's technique and talent are also better than Nadal AND Djoko but because he knows his talent will vanish quickly after long rallies .

Ten, you probably drink too much. Wawrinka more talented against Nole You totally mixes up the beauty to play single shots and tennis ability on courts. I am sorry but this discussion is worthless.

I am not talking about the beauty of a game, I am talking about about the ability to hit shots agressively consistently. It's pretty clear that is talent.....exactly what Nadal cannot do despite his added muscles. You are mixing success and talent. Nadal fans will say that with 11 slams he is considerably more talented than Djoko might find your argument "worthless".

Tenez wrote: You say he is only fitness and it is that fitness that gave him 11 slams!...considerably more than Djoko

Although I did not want to open this topic about Nadal's strength, there is nothing secret about it. Nadal's powerful tennis looks easy, but his tactics is worked out properly against the best players. He is not only one of the best stamina and power wise, but he has an excellent eye-hand coordination and reads the game pretty well. IMO Nadal actually reads Fed's game better than Nole.

Again I really cannot agree with that. It;s not about reading the game. It's about reading Federer's game. Both are reacting to Fed's game and are a step behind. The advantage Nadal has over Djoko is that he sends a more energetic, spinnier ball than Djoko. That is what makes things difficult for Fed, whereas Djoko's ball is very similar to what Fed is used to as it is no different to what any other player does, he simply does it for longer and gets more balls back.

Tbh, if Nadal had been learnt an attacking tennis from his childhood, he would have a better chance to succeed with Nole than he has nowadays. Now, it is too late

That is a difficult question. I think Nadal has not got the basic talent to play attacking. Attacking requires eye/hand coordination (unless you are 6'4" or above) where margins are bigger. Maybe he had that talent but it is well hidden and never developed it. I just doubt he has cause he woudl have tried to take the ball earlier v Rosol and that woudl have guranteed him an easy win.

paulcz wrote:Except playing with Nole, I do not see anybody else with whom Nadal would struggle mentally.

Paul, for the 1000 times, That's because against anybody else, Nadal woudl be the fitter player!!!!

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:Except playing with Nole, I do not see anybody else with whom Nadal would struggle mentally.

Paul, for the 1000 times, That's because against anybody else, Nadal woudl be the fitter player!!!!

Ten, no for bigger amount. We have discussed so many times in tennis community. I have tennis analyses, unfortunately in Czech language done by tennis experts ( I have already put it here a couple of times) and stamina was not even mentioned as a main advantage for Nole. That does not mean that it does not help to Nole as it would to everybody else.

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:

Tenez wrote:Wawrinka's technique and talent are also better than Nadal AND Djoko but because he knows his talent will vanish quickly after long rallies .

Ten, you probably drink too much. Wawrinka more talented against Nole You totally mixes up the beauty to play single shots and tennis ability on courts. I am sorry but this discussion is worthless.

I am not talking about the beauty of a game, I am talking about about the ability to hit shots agressively consistently. It's pretty clear that is talent.....exactly what Nadal cannot do despite his added muscles. You are mixing success and talent. Nadal fans will say that with 11 slams he is considerably more talented than Djoko might find your argument "worthless".

As you say to hit shots aggressively and consistently thats is exactly what Stan does really misses in his game. His FH is under average in top 50 imo. With FH the game starts and ends, definitely.

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:Except playing with Nole, I do not see anybody else with whom Nadal would struggle mentally.

Paul, for the 1000 times, That's because against anybody else, Nadal woudl be the fitter player!!!!

Nadal is fitter than Novak.
Murray is fitter than Novak.
Federer is as fit if not fitter than Novak.

So how does Novak beat Nadal being the least fit of the 4?

As things stand in current (clay) playing conditions:

Novak moves better than Murray (just to mention the most obvious). In a Nadal Murray match-up, Nadal will prevail as he is a better mover (again, the most obvious advantage, there are others, too).

Novak's BH is not a liability like Fed's. In Fed - Nadal match-up the longer the match goes, the less chance of winning for Federer. The margin between the two on clay should not be as huge as it looks in their H2H, though.

So the mere fact that Novak moves so brilliantly (and I'm not talking running, that's where Nadal and Murray are better than him), the fact that in his best form he is equally strong on both wings, plus the fact that he has considerably improved his fitness, are (just about) enough to beat Nadal on any surface.

I would sincerely hope that Novak beats Nadal in RG, because I think he would then occupy the honorary top spot: he'd permanently reside in Nadal's head.

Now, I am not taking/expecting Novak's win over Nadal in RG (should they meet, of course) as guaranteed, far from it.

Disturbingly, Nadal's post MC final comment and "answer" was that he needs to work on being more physical. We all know that's the only thing he can add to what he has and that is the only way he can beat Novak.

The only thing I don't know is HOW he is going to add to the existing level of his physicality. With the 25 sec rule that has clearly severely hampered him yesterday, HOW is that left bicep of his going to have more energy in it to sting with those hard-hit, pulverising forehands?
How can anyone last in a best of 5 match hitting the ball expending that much energy?

He definitely knows the answer as he also said he had plenty of time until RG to prepare, mentioning the three tournaments he is going to play before RG.

Does this mean that ALL players are going to be more physical just by playing those 2-3 tournaments?

I can't believe he actually said it.

Tenez wrote:
Again I really cannot agree with that. It;s not about reading the game. It's about reading Federer's game. Both are reacting to Fed's game and are a step behind. The advantage Nadal has over Djoko is that he sends a more energetic, spinnier ball than Djoko. That is what makes things difficult for Fed, whereas Djoko's ball is very similar to what Fed is used to as it is no different to what any other player does, he simply does it for longer and gets more balls back.

The game reading is directly connected with the game pattern. Due to that Nadal makes up the game through Fed's BH, that is pretty easy for Nadal to react even when he stands three meters behind the BL. Fed can not practically push out Nadal from his comfort zone, which Nole clearly does. Although Fed plays faster and his positioning is more in the court, he is not able to push out Nadal more. When Fed gets frustrated his BH is off and starts playing slices, then that is the end. Nadal starts to dictate the game and Fed does not catch his BH. Then Nadal's timing of these slices is excellent and crushes him with a delight.

Nole will always profit on clay and on BO5 matches from his better weight index [heigh/weight] especially against Nadal and Murray. Fed is also a bit heavier than Nole.

But as everything it has also its dark side, and Nole just does not have such a swing as Delpo/Berd. I really appreciate that Nole switched to a smaller frame racket, which helps him when playing winners. Yesterday I saw some really nice FH swings which he has never done.

And I forgot to mention, Guy Forget is asking for Nadal to get a protected ranking in RG:

"Since we can see them meeting in the finals of the biggest events in the next weeks, it would be a shame to have them meet in a quarterfinal in Roland Garros. The rules state the Grand Slam events have the right to change the seeding regarding the situation of the players. Wimbledon has done that in the past. I would not find it illogical to change the seeds."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/04/21/tennis-french-nadal-idUKL3N0D807W20130421

And finally, with the modern strings technology, medicine as well as the increased average height/size of players, it almost seems it's time to redesign tennis courts, too.

They are starting to look exceedingly small these days.

paulcz wrote:

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:Except playing with Nole, I do not see anybody else with whom Nadal would struggle mentally.

Paul, for the 1000 times, That's because against anybody else, Nadal woudl be the fitter player!!!!

Ten, no for bigger amount. We have discussed so many times in tennis community. I have tennis analyses, unfortunately in Czech language done by tennis experts ( I have already put it here a couple of times) and stamina was not even mentioned as a main advantage for Nole. That does not mean that it does not help to Nole as it would to everybody else.

Analysis by tennis expert is one thing but what everybody saw, including the simple observer, is that before his gluten free diet Djoko was consistently losing his close (and not so close) matches versus Nadal and Federer. After that diet, which gave him great stamina, he won everything.

paulcz wrote:As you say to hit shots aggressively and consistently thats is exactly what Stan does really misses in his game. His FH is under average in top 50 imo. With FH the game starts and ends, definitely.

Consistently enough to win sets v Djoko..that is talent but on those slow courts, Djoko forced the long rallies taking the edge off Stan....once again it is Djoko's stamina that made teh difference not his shot making ability...certainly not against Stan.

I am afraid, but seeing Djoko's BH's slice, I am pretty convinced that Djoko would never had had the talent to be nearly as consistent as Stan with a SHBH.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:Except playing with Nole, I do not see anybody else with whom Nadal would struggle mentally.

Paul, for the 1000 times, That's because against anybody else, Nadal woudl be the fitter player!!!!

Nadal is fitter than Novak.
Murray is fitter than Novak.
Federer is as fit if not fitter than Novak.

So how does Novak beat Nadal being the least fit of the 4?

The questions are : how come Djoko wins twice as many long rallies as Nadal and Murray? How come Djoko cover ground than Murray yet last longer?

Djoko is fitter in the stamina department, essentially thanks to using less muscle than the other 2. But doesn't matter, it is his stamina which helps him most.

paulcz wrote:The game reading is directly connected with the game pattern. Due to that Nadal makes up the game through Fed's BH, that is pretty easy for Nadal to react even when he stands three meters behind the BL. Fed can not practically push out Nadal from his comfort zone, which Nole clearly does. Although Fed plays faster and his positioning is more in the court, he is not able to push out Nadal more. When Fed gets frustrated his BH is off and starts playing slices, then that is the end. Nadal starts to dictate the game and Fed does not catch his BH. Then Nadal's timing of these slices is excellent and crushes him with a delight.

Fed has an excellent record against LHers, even v Verdasco who hammers the ball on Fed's BH. So the difficulty Fed has when meeting Nadal is the fact that Nadal's ball is much heavier, and spinnier.

If you provide lower bounce courts to Fed or (a Nadal that has not the ususal "slam" energy), Fed handles the ball much better and will beat Nadal even more easily than Djoko who has no choice but rallying endlessly with him.

Under the right conditions for Fed, he beats Nadal more convincingly than Djoko. Don't you agree?



Problem is the tour has slowed everything down to allow Nadal more time to inject that bloody spin and makes Fedal finals possible.

paulcz wrote:Nole will always profit on clay and on BO5 matches from his better weight index [heigh/weight] especially against Nadal and Murray.

Hoorah you recognise that Djoko is fitter over the long ralliies. Not sure about Djoko being lighter than Fed though. He is one inch taller and that makes a big difference. It's true that some products nowadays can help burn all the fat though. I would not take the stats on the ATP site about weight at face value.

noleisthebest wrote:And I forgot to mention, Guy Forget is asking for Nadal to get a protected ranking in RG:

"Since we can see them meeting in the finals of the biggest events in the next weeks, it would be a shame to have them meet in a quarterfinal in Roland Garros. The rules state the Grand Slam events have the right to change the seeding regarding the situation of the players. Wimbledon has done that in the past. I would not find it illogical to change the seeds."

[url=http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/04/21/tennis-french-nadal-idUKL3N0D807W20130421

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/04/21/tennis-french-nadal-idUKL3N0D807W20130421[/quote[/url]]

Well if they don't trick the seeding, they will trick the draw.

I am against messing up with seeding for slams, it's way too subjective...though Wimby does it in a methodical way.

noleisthebest wrote:And finally, with the modern strings technology, medicine as well as the increased average height/size of players, it almost seems it's time to redesign tennis courts, too.

They are starting to look exceedingly small these days.

Yes and bigger courts will mean shorter rallies. To compensate the new string effect , they would need to be narrower close to the net and larger on the base line. That would give SVers a better chance.

But to be fair that will never happen cause if we start to change the dimensions every time technology evolves it would be a nightmare. I was only suggesting redesigning the court to absorb some of the change generated by the new strings.

Tenez wrote:
The questions are : how come Djoko wins twice as many long rallies as Nadal and Murray? How come Djoko cover ground than Murray yet last longer?

Djoko is fitter in the stamina department, essentially thanks to using less muscle than the other 2. But doesn't matter, it is his stamina which helps him most.

I think you know the answer to that question, as you have answered it yourself in one of your previous posts: he is simply more energy-friendly for a few reasons: has a very light upper body to carry around (that saves a lot of energy), does not have big muscles that burn so much oxygen like Nadal and Murray. Thirdly, he is a lot kinder to the ball than Nadal and Murray and does not muscle it like the two.
I think atm Murray is fitter than Nadal, but Nadal has better stamina. If they were to play on a hard court , say USO, that could be an interesting match, where they would be evenly balanced over 5 sets, I think.

Regarding your reply to Paul saying that Federer is lighter than Nole, that's not true. They are both lean athletes, with nice, long muscles, but Federer has heavier build in the upper body, i.e. more weight to carry around.
I saw Nole from close up in the O2 last year and he was scarily thin, drawn in the face, very, very lean upper body.

He simply does not have the strength Nadal, Murray , and partly Federer have in their upper bodies. His strength are his legs, and I must say they are the best pair of legs in tennis. I am not talking aesthetic here. The are extremely well-conditioned, can last for a long time and the main reason for his brilliant movement. He is very light on his feet.
It's those legs that are enabling him to outlast Nadal and/or Murray.
With Federer, there is no outlasting factor, it's just defence those legs are able to provide for Novak, getting to the fast balls. Federer dictates play most of the time.

Their match in O2 in November was a very good illustration of both players' strengths and weaknesses.

Now, regarding aerobic/anaerobic fitness & endurance, that's where I think doping comes in big time.

Anyone who has played any sport, especially tennis will know how long a pair of fit, natural lungs can last you in a rally.
So all this crazy energy-sapping, rally after rally, ball bashing looks a bit dodgy.

Despite their young years and great fitness and stamina, all those players would need more than a minute to recover between some of those points if they were playing clean.

I know a lot more about fitness than doping, so don't have a clue what they use and what it is that converts oxygen so much more efficiently through the heart and into muscles.

I know it certainly can't be healthy.

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:Except playing with Nole, I do not see anybody else with whom Nadal would struggle mentally.

Paul, for the 1000 times, That's because against anybody else, Nadal woudl be the fitter player!!!!

Paul, I don't get why you see Djoko the only one to cause nadal mental problem.

Tenez, likewise, I don't get why you see nadal fitter than every other player except Djoko

Since Soderling cracked him in 09, others have followed, Rosol and Zeballos being his
latest tormentors. In IW if Gubuis had been in
better form and if nadal didn’t cheat with coaching from Toni during that
match, he would have probably lost to Gubuis. Nadal struggled there. In MC Dimi was
fearless and nadal was far from steady. Dimi could have gotten the job done if
he didn’t cramp.

Previously Nadal was near untouchable. Now NOT ONLY DJOKOVICH, but other
lower-ranked and/or young players like Gubuis and Dimi are capable of unsettling
him mentally and game-wise. They will succeed sooner or later. He's not the fittest/mentally strong/ or whatever-you-want-to-call-it anymore.