There Was Rosol The Great and Now We Have.....

ZEBALLOS, THE LEGEND

Well, done Horazio, great win and great heart, don't know what I liked better the serve, running forehand or that backhand!

OTF thanks you for tonight's fine performance and congratulates you on your first title

For you and Argentina that is celebrating now, you've danced one great tango tonight!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu3AjfZyg6k

Nah...The list is actually a poor list of players: Dodig, Melzer, Mayer, Zebellos, Rosol...They all won versus Nadal despite not being as powerful and not as fit as nadal. Sure it was not vintage Rafa but the main point is that Nadal was still moving faster, longer and hitting the ball harder and Rafa was still by far the mentally strongest by a mile and was intimidating knowingly or unknowingly all of them...
So if Nadal was also more talented than them...can anyone explain to me how he lost despite being fitter and mentally stronger?

Tenez wrote:Nah...The list is actually a poor list of players: Dodig, Melzer, Mayer, Zebellos, Rosol...They all won versus Nadal despite not being as powerful and not as fit as nadal. Sure it was not vintage Rafa but the main point is that Nadal was still moving faster, longer and hitting the ball harder and Rafa was still by far the mentally strongest by a mile and was intimidating knowingly or unknowingly all of them...
So if Nadal was also more talented than them...can anyone explain to me how he lost despite being fitter and mentally stronger?

yeah.

Really happy for Zeballos.
Made a name for himself last week when commenting on Del Potro's absence from Davis Cup said: "Del Potro who?"
Well, the world is going to remember him for this win instead now

Back to posting on OTF after a busy work-schedule.


Good win for Zeballos. I have seen him play 2 years back when he was able to play some more tournaments in ATP's main draw. He isn't much of a deal anyway. Lefty with a single handed backhand is a recipe for disaster. Feli lopez has soft hand and can play a bit off that wing, Lllodra can volley. But Zebo... he can only slice.

Did you watch the match rotla? HZ's BH was actually his main strength. He threw a couple of key slices winners but most were hit topspin and were better than his FH.
However his mouvement was terrible and he managed to beat Nadal on shot making alone.

Tenez wrote:Did you watch the match rotla? HZ's BH was actually his main strength. He threw a couple of key slices winners but most were hit topspin and were better than his FH.
However his mouvement was terrible and he managed to beat Nadal on shot making alone.

No I didn't see the match. I fact I have only seen HZ 2 years backs. Thats where I found his backhand as his obvious weakness ( just like its so apparent for Feli Lpoez and Llodra{from baseline i.e.} ). He might have worked on it and improved or it might be a case of a good back-hand day. I don't expect any SHBH lefty to be good off that wing.

Nadal was always going to be beaten on shot-making by HZ if that was possible. Outlasting him is only possible for Djokovic.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Nadal was always going to be beaten on shot-making by HZ if that was possible. Outlasting him is only possible for Djokovic.

Very true. I was again very strange to see Nadal doing most of the running, yet it was HZ being breathless.

Tenez wrote:

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Nadal was always going to be beaten on shot-making by HZ if that was possible. Outlasting him is only possible for Djokovic.

Very true. I was again very strange to see Nadal doing most of the running, yet it was HZ being breathless.

I disagree. It is virtually impossible to beat Nadal with pure shot-making in these conditions, esp best of 5, outlasting him is the only guaranteed option. Once YOU can blunt his "weapon" i.e. moonballing forehand by returning it time and time again, you've got the long-term winning formula.

Other wins were erratic and one-offs.

Now, if the courts played faster, that would be a completely different story, of course.

But rotla is right...he is saying that unless you are as fit as Djoko you can only beat Nadal by hitting through him.
BTW, someone has messed up our site. It looks like now you do not want to receive PM. strange...I will have to log in as admin I guess and see what's happening.

Tenez wrote:But rotla is right...he is saying that unless you are as fit as Djoko you can only beat Nadal by hitting through him.
BTW, someone has messed up our site. It looks like now you do not want to receive PM. strange...I will have to log in as admin I guess and see what's happening.

Fixed.

The excuses must be piling up all over the internet...
Im sure the likes of Amri and Socal are blaming this loss on some "racist pm" Zeballos sent Nadal

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote: Outlasting him is only possible for Djokovic.

I have not seen anybody to outlast Nadal because there is nobody who can do it. If anybody has tried it he would need to outmoonball him. Such a player has never been and never will appear, I am sure. Just no way. As I wrote Nole can handle Nadal on hc as nobody on the tour, so he hasn't done and couldn't done this way and that would be a big mistake to start racing in moonballing.
For these who admire this moonballer, let's hurry to watch him, because he will not play long.

When I thinking about his game, it is not actually moonballing, but a level up, just Marsballing, a kind of supermoonballing.

I can imagine that in a couple of decades there will be a mention in tennis books, that in the first decade of this millenium there was a player who upgraded original moonballing into its final phase called Supermoonballing and he has been a sole player with such a style from then on.

paulcz wrote:
I can imagine that in a couple of decades there will be a mention in tennis books, that in the first decade of this millenium there was a player who upgraded original moonballing into its final phase called Supermoonballing and he has been a sole player with such a style from then on.

Yes, and we will nostalgically remember that strange, brief spell in tennis history where 11 slams were snatched and sucked into a black hole right in front of our very eyes by someone who didn't even know his left hand from his right!

paulcz wrote:
I have not seen anybody to outlast Nadal because there is nobody who can do it.

Surely Djoko has outlast him the whole of 2011. He almost outlast him in that FO 12 when Nadal was getting tired but Djoko was ready to go on, only saved by the rain.
And regarding moonballing watch this clip from min 15.15 it's good to have a ground level view. I don't want to break a bad news but Djoko moonballs too...he just just moonballs a tiny bit lower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afOTX7ilr5w

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:
I have not seen anybody to outlast Nadal because there is nobody who can do it.

Surely Djoko has outlast him the whole of 2011. He almost outlast him in that FO 12 when Nadal was getting tired but Djoko was ready to go on, only saved by the rain.
And regarding moonballing watch this clip from min 15.15 it's good to have a ground level view. I don't want to break a bad news but Djoko moonballs too...he just just moonballs a tiny bit lower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afOTX7ilr5w

Did you have bad dinner or stg?

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:
I have not seen anybody to outlast Nadal because there is nobody who can do it.

Surely Djoko has outlast him the whole of 2011. He almost outlast him in that FO 12 when Nadal was getting tired but Djoko was ready to go on, only saved by the rain.
And regarding moonballing watch this clip from min 15.15 it's good to have a ground level view. I don't want to break a bad news but Djoko moonballs too...he just just moonballs a tiny bit lower.
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afOTX7ilr5w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afOTX7ilr5w [/quote[/url]]

Ten, you had to copy something else, at 15.15 and from I see some freely played FH balls, which does play everybody.
Nadal plays the second violin, Nole dictates most of rallies from the beginning to the end, you can not do it by moonballing, no way.

Wow, one has to read this to believe it!!!
This is what Zeballos said in his post-match interview yesterday, I really want to throw up!

"I’m shocked. I’ve beaten one of the best players of tennis history. It’s an incredible sensation. I still think I’m dreaming. It’s an honor playing against him. I enjoyed being with him at the locker room, eating with him. He’s a great guy, I would like to ask him if he’s from this planet.”

I honestly don't think there is so much dictating they both force each other to run...Nadal covers more ground probably but Djoko does too. Remember the stats we saw whihc confirmed that Djoko is teh one who covers most ground on tour per match!!!!

As for Nadal, he blames his loss on the lack of energy! s
So maybe not quite from another planet....

"I’m lacking reaction speed, energy and leg strength I need in order to give my balls more depth, things that I have had throughout my career. I played with everything I had and today I had nothing.”

Tenez wrote:I honestly don't think there is so much dictating they both force each other to run...Nadal covers more ground probably but Djoko does too. Remember the stats we saw whihc confirmed that Djoko is teh one who covers most ground on tour per match!!!!

I haven't seen those stats. Would be interesting to have a look if you can dig them out.

noleisthebest wrote:Wow, one has to read this to believe it!!!
This is what Zeballos said in his post-match interview yesterday, I really want to throw up!

"I’m shocked. I’ve beaten one of the best players of tennis history. It’s an incredible sensation. I still think I’m dreaming. It’s an honor playing against him. I enjoyed being with him at the locker room, eating with him. He’s a great guy, I would like to ask him if he’s from this planet.”

But if that's exactly what I was saying yesterday in live commentary. one felt HZ did not want or dare to beat him.
I think it is a money and power thing that impresses those guys...a bit like a SME director meeting Bill Gates or Larry elison...cause clearly he coudl not be impressed by Nadal's tennis.
Having said all that I think HB was really overwhelmed by the emotion cause beating Nadal on clay is certainly enough to turn a career if not reputation around for such a modest player and probably said many things he did not really think.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I honestly don't think there is so much dictating they both force each other to run...Nadal covers more ground probably but Djoko does too. Remember the stats we saw whihc confirmed that Djoko is teh one who covers most ground on tour per match!!!!

I haven't seen those stats. Would be interesting to have a look if you can dig them out.

LF posted them around Xmas I believe.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I honestly don't think there is so much dictating they both force each other to run...Nadal covers more ground probably but Djoko does too. Remember the stats we saw whihc confirmed that Djoko is teh one who covers most ground on tour per match!!!!

I haven't seen those stats. Would be interesting to have a look if you can dig them out.

LF posted them around Xmas I believe.

I remember that, it was just for one tournament I think and showed the mileage for the entire tournament, so of course Novak covered most having won, i.e. played most matches. Nice try, though

Tenez wrote:But if that's exactly what I was saying yesterday in live commentary. one felt HZ did not want or dare to beat him.
I think it is a money and power thing that impresses those guys...a bit like a SME director meeting Bill Gates or Larry elison...cause clearly he coudl not be impressed by Nadal's tennis.
Having said all that I think HB was really overwhelmed by the emotion cause beating Nadal on clay is certainly enough to turn a career if not reputation around for such a modest player and probably said many things he did not really think.

I know...I got a glimpse of that very unequal world of strong pecking order in one small clip which shows Spanish players sitting in a players' lounge, incl Nadal and Toni. It was shocking to see the sheer inferiority expressed in the body language. It didn't look nice. The only guy that looked comfortable in his own skin in that group was F. Lopez.

Tenez wrote:I honestly don't think there is so much dictating they both force each other to run...Nadal covers more ground probably but Djoko does too. Remember the stats we saw whihc confirmed that Djoko is teh one who covers most ground on tour per match!!!!

The main difference at this AO final was positioning and faster hitting, that gives Nole more time to be in centre zone. Nadal accelerates faster and that is only way he catches up with Nole. From that point Nole's coverage is better, but Nadal compensates this by faster legs. Both has a great body elasticity.
There is no way to outlast Nadal on clay. Soderling or Nole when beat Nadal, needed to push him out of the centre court zone and dictate the play. That is only recipe how to beat him on clay at RG. There is no way that somebody can outplay him by game variety or going directly for winners at RG. Or maybe yes, but he has not appeared yet.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I honestly don't think there is so much dictating they both force each other to run...Nadal covers more ground probably but Djoko does too. Remember the stats we saw whihc confirmed that Djoko is teh one who covers most ground on tour per match!!!!

I haven't seen those stats. Would be interesting to have a look if you can dig them out.

LF posted them around Xmas I believe.

I remember that, it was just for one tournament I think and showed the mileage for the entire tournament, so of course Novak covered most having won, i.e. played most matches. Nice try, though

There was one for the season per match...

paulcz wrote:There is no way to outlast Nadal on clay. Soderling or Nole when beat Nadal, needed to push him out of the centre court zone and dictate the play. That is only recipe how to beat him on clay at RG. There is no way that somebody can outplay him by game variety or going directly for winners at RG. Or maybe yes, but he has not appeared yet.

I am sure you remember those many rallies in 2011 when the longer the rally, the more was Nadal urged to pull the trigger as his energy within a rally was fading faster than Djoko. 2011 is littered with those especially on key points where Nole was purposely not trying to shorten rallies but to keep them going until Nadal asphyxiated had to go for broke. Surely that is "outlasting" and was only done by Djoko and no-one else v Nadal.

Classic symptoms of selective memory...When we like someone we tend to overlook the bad things, with those we don't, it's the other way round - they never seem to do anything right!

Exactly...the little problem here is that what you do not like in the one you don't like is very much what makes the one you like successful.
With me it is much simpler. I do not like those who do things I don't like.

Tenez wrote:Exactly...the little problem here is that what you do not like in the one you don't like is very much what makes the one you like successful.
With me it is much simpler. I do not like those who do things I don't like.

To you Nadal is the same as Djokovic. To me he isn't. It's that simple.

That I noticed. It's the "why" that I don't quite get....well besides that one shares some of your culture, the other doesn't.
I would not say he is the same but he wins on the same strength as Nadal. Stamina....since 2011...thanks to a sudden gluten free diet.

Tenez wrote:That I noticed. It's the "why" that I don't quite get....well besides that one shares some of your culture, the other doesn't.
I would not say he is the same but he wins on the same strength as Nadal. Stamina....since 2011...thanks to a sudden gluten free diet.

very loud sigh.....

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:That I noticed. It's the "why" that I don't quite get....well besides that one shares some of your culture, the other doesn't.
I would not say he is the same but he wins on the same strength as Nadal. Stamina....since 2011...thanks to a sudden gluten free diet.

very loud sigh.....

don't go over 25s though!

oh, stop it!

Good night.

Tenez wrote:Good night.

sweet dreams: SBHDTL, CC, slice, drop-shot, ace....all on Wimbledon Centre Court!

I see two Djokovic Fans talking totally opposite things.

nitb says its virtually impossible to beat Nadal in clay conditions by shot-making. It has to be outlasting Nadal. So looks like HZ beat Nadal by Outlasting him and not shot-making as I would say (guessing as I didn't see that match. But I do expect what kind of match a player needs to play to beat Nadal ).

Paulcz here says its impossible to outlast Nadal. So surely HZ didn't outlast him. So must have out-hit him (like Rosol ) as I expect. It wasn't even a particularly long match too.

yes...good point rotla...some explanation needed here from those 2 fans....We cannot wait to hear their common thoughts on this.

He,he...you two trying to make us look like road-runners, aren't you?

No!
This time you do the legwork and read the posts properly before commenting as if you haven't read them....after all this is supposed to be a serious forum, isn't it

Oh nicely dodged!....I think Paul might give us a different reply.

Tenez wrote:

paulcz wrote:There is no way to outlast Nadal on clay. Soderling or Nole when beat Nadal, needed to push him out of the centre court zone and dictate the play. That is only recipe how to beat him on clay at RG. There is no way that somebody can outplay him by game variety or going directly for winners at RG. Or maybe yes, but he has not appeared yet.

I am sure you remember those many rallies in 2011 when the longer the rally, the more was Nadal urged to pull the trigger as his energy within a rally was fading faster than Djoko. 2011 is littered with those especially on key points where Nole was purposely not trying to shorten rallies but to keep them going until Nadal asphyxiated had to go for broke. Surely that is "outlasting" and was only done by Djoko and no-one else v Nadal.

Hi Fed's fans, here is my response (my the longest, sorry for that)
The outlasting means that somebody who has less confidence in his shot making abilities and just relies on his
legs/lungs. That is not the GENERAL approach Nole when playing with Nadal and this would be a big mistake. If you are imposed to play passively and allow the moonballer to take the rein of the match into his hands, that is your end,especially on clay. To beat Nadal you need the superb concentration and force him out from the zone. I really can not see that somebody could win the moonballing with Nadal. When Nadal plays with passive opponnent he very easily opens the court for winners. He is very fast and explossive, he reads the game very well and has no problem
at the net. The more time Nadal has the heavier moonballs you get back on your half, his superpower left
moonballs will kill you.
Once I saw one similar moonballer on live, who played such moonballs that they overjumped his opponent, he was a bit shorter and the court was smaller though. That was a horrible to watch.

Of course each match is not the same and you need to try out and let your opponent to play, to recognize his game or form. It is not possible to play the whole match the same winners with the same game pattern. The top 4 are able to get used to your game pattern very quickly and your winners will stop working out after a short time. Therefore all 4, Nole/Nadal/Fed or Murray are great also due to their great deffensive game and it is amazing what they are able to retrieve.I would find always a couple well retrieved balls in every match by the big 4, in which they played against a good opponent.
Sometimes it is good to let your opponent to attract to the net and just to play a shorter ball or lose FH, just to change the rythm of the game. The importance of the tennis is not how amazingly you played some balls, but if you are able to dictate the pace of the game, change the game rhythm so that the opponent just does not know what will happen in the next ball. Berd does say quite often, that the most difficult is to play with Nole, Wilander also
says that Nole is the most versatile player on the tour at AO.Nadal is other way round, when he is in trouble he tries
mostly to supermoonball with a bigger power. Nole is absolutely different story.

When you feel that your opponent does not catch with a ball hitting, then to extent rally is an absolutely right approach. Then the taking of the risk to try winners on clay can be very tricky. Nole can dominate in the court very nicely when he is on the run, then he becomes more active and confident on the court and grasps the match
in his hands. Then he comes more to the net, plays drop shots and short crosses. He just plays as a champion, he does not allow his opponent to get used to his game and just wrings out of them the last bits of their energy. This approach have nothing with passive stamina approach, but vice versa.

Nole wins his matches by great BL shots played from every even not possible position with a nice feeling and by wide variety of his game. Great stamina is the prerequisite to win GS nowadays. Without the great stamina you can
not win even in Wimbledon.

Paul I understand what you are saying.but the fact remains that when Djoko was able to absorb Nadal's shot and run around with him he beat him (every time in 2011) but when he was not as fit and started again to pull the trigger too early cause he coudl not do the running with Nadal he lost like in the good old days (all his matches on clay in 2012).
I do not think Nole has great BL shots I think he can certainly turn defense into attack cause when 3 metre outside the trameline he has enough abdominal power to twist his back and pull a shot that hurts thanks to being outside the trameline (providing more angles). That is also Nadal and Murray strength being able to pull winners way outside the court cause of the new strings and amazing athletism. A good shot maker keeps the centre court and makes the opponent do the running.

I am afraid this is not the case of Djoko. I know his game very Paul...and because I am not a fan I can analyse it pretty objectively.

paulcz wrote:
Hi Fed's fans, here is my response (my the longest, sorry for that)
The outlasting means that somebody who has less confidence in his shot making abilities and just relies on his
legs/lungs. That is not the GENERAL approach Nole when playing with Nadal and this would be a big mistake. If you are imposed to play passively and allow the moonballer to take the rein of the match into his hands, that is your end,especially on clay. To beat Nadal you need the superb concentration and force him out from the zone. I really can not see that somebody could win the moonballing with Nadal. When Nadal plays with passive opponnent he very easily opens the court for winners. He is very fast and explossive, he reads the game very well and has no problem
at the net. The more time Nadal has the heavier moonballs you get back on your half, his superpower left
moonballs will kill you.
Once I saw one similar moonballer on live, who played such moonballs that they overjumped his opponent, he was a bit shorter and the court was smaller though. That was a horrible to watch.

Of course each match is not the same and you need to try out and let your opponent to play, to recognize his game or form. It is not possible to play the whole match the same winners with the same game pattern. The top 4 are able to get used to your game pattern very quickly and your winners will stop working out after a short time. Therefore all 4, Nole/Nadal/Fed or Murray are great also due to their great deffensive game and it is amazing what they are able to retrieve.I would find always a couple well retrieved balls in every match by the big 4, in which they played against a good opponent.
Sometimes it is good to let your opponent to attract to the net and just to play a shorter ball or lose FH, just to change the rythm of the game. The importance of the tennis is not how amazingly you played some balls, but if you are able to dictate the pace of the game, change the game rhythm so that the opponent just does not know what will happen in the next ball. Berd does say quite often, that the most difficult is to play with Nole, Wilander also says that Nole is the most versatile player on the tour at AO.Nadal is other way round, when he is in trouble he tries mostly to supermoonball with a bigger power. Nole is absolutely different story.

When you feel that your opponent does not catch with a ball hitting, then to extent rally is an absolutely right approach. Then the taking of the risk to try winners on clay can be very tricky. Nole can dominate in the court very nicely when he is on the run, then he becomes more active and confident on the court and grasps the match
in his hands. Then he comes more to the net, plays drop shots and short crosses. He just plays as a champion, he does not allow his opponent to get used to his game and just wrings out of them the last bits of their energy. This approach have nothing with passive stamina approach, but vice versa.

Nole wins his matches by great BL shots played from every even not possible position with a nice feeling and by wide variety of his game. Great stamina is the prerequisite to win GS nowadays. Without the great stamina you can
not win even in Wimbledon.

Thanks Paul, the way Nole plays and beats Nadal is really a work of art, I love the way he deconstructs him bit by bit, until Nadal reaches the state of panic and starts going for the lines which he is not able to paint....
It is a colossal task to crush him fully fit both physically and mentally, but he did it.
Belief and the backhand are the key.

Of course, some will keep thinking that it's possible to beat Nadal with shotmaking.....only one man in the history of tennis succeeded i it on the biggest stage of all the one and only Rosol The Great !
Let us remember that glorious moment again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er_LfpxmEBg

Thanks Paul, the way Nole plays and beats Nadal is really a work of art,

Reminds me those who like Brad Gilbert said that Nadal had the best tennis mind....completely overlooking Nadal's legs and lungs.
One thing for sure is that Djoko struggled beating Nadal before his glutten free diet and managed to beat regularly when he became fitter. And again lost to him in 2012 when he tried to hit through him instead of playing the patient game.
It's quite clear for all to see.

Tenez wrote:

Thanks Paul, the way Nole plays and beats Nadal is really a work of art,

Reminds me those who like Brad Gilbert said that Nadal had the best tennis mind....completely overlooking Nadal's legs and lungs.
One thing for sure is that Djoko struggled beating Nadal before his glutten free diet and managed to beat regularly when he became fitter. And again lost to him in 2012 when he tried to hit through him instead of playing the patient game.
It's quite clear for all to see.

Brad was surely drunk when said that or he wanted to replace Toni for Nadal coaching. That rubbish could not
have been said without a side intention.

Yes, it is clear that better stamina allows Nole to be more confident and he became generally better
player. But it is obvious that Nole due to his better stamina is more active player on the court than he used to be.

we are getting close to agreeing then .

Tenez wrote:we are getting close to agreeing then .

I did not have doubts about it