ATP Masters 1000: Madrid

This was 9th match between Rafa and Thiem - and all 9 were on clay! Thiem is now 3-6, which is quite respectable vs Rafa.

summerblues wrote:This was 9th match between Rafa and Thiem - and all 9 were on clay!  Thiem is now 3-6, which is quite respectable vs Rafa.

What' strange is how different is the result of their last 2 matches which are just a couple of weeks apart on the same surface.

Maybe to explain it:
1 - Thiem was quite off form in their MC encounter. Thiem can be erratic. Even this week, he got crushed by Coric in that first set and almost lost in two before winning the 3rd with more ease. Struggled against unknown in Barcelona before being crushed by Tsitsipas. So clearly had a bad start to the clay season and his demolition by Nadal was a poor reflection of their real respective level on clay.

2 - Madrid is faster so clearly nadal can't inject as much spin as he likes too so his shots were actually shorter and more erratic than in MC or Barca who both are at sea level. The fact that Nadal has half of Madrid TMS compared to MC says it all, even beaten by Federer there. It goes and confirms once again that Nadal without the full use of his brawn cannot win much.

3 - Nadal looked tired to me. Not sure why as he has 10 days rest before starting Madrid. Maybe like most, he cannot recover as easily as in the past. But to me it shows that there is a lot of bluff in Nadal's fitness. Don't get me wrong he is the fittest...but I am convinced one of his main strength is to show that he is fit more than he really is. As we know Djoko, Federer and Murray exposed that bluff a few times. Nadal if challenged during a match really needs that extra time during points, but if really challenged that extra time is simply not enough. He gets breathless and then his shots get shorter, less spinny, more erratic and he is easier to manoeuvre right and left. he becomes then victim of his own game. Thiem did expose that very clearly yesterday.

The task of beating him in B05 at teh FO will be very hard...but someone who knows that he can tire, will take heart. Federer knows that Nadal can collapse in the 5th (Miami 05, Wimbledon 07 (and maybe 08 if it was not for the rain breaks), AO 17) where he lost 6 and 5 games in a row of those 5th sets. Unfortunately Federer has not got it in him anymore to play those 6 matches on clay to have the right to face the king of that surface.

I still take heart about the FO now that I have seen him lose on his home soil.

Its not Barca its Barça

Barça is a short name for FC Barcelona, not the town itself


If you want to use a short name for Barcelona you could use Barna (I dont like it but some catalans use it)

another chance and a good one for a forum would be Bcn

Madrid is not his home soil, even if he says so

madrid is 700m above see and by no means is it what he likes, his tennis club is  Barcelona

anyway he has won 5 times there, but it is no doubt his less favourable clay masters

naxroy wrote:Its not Barca its Barça

Barça is a short name for FC Barcelona, not the town itself


If you want to use a short name for Barcelona you could use Barna (I dont like it but some catalans use it)

another chance and a good one for a forum would be Bcn

Lo se. Hablo y entiendo tu idioma. De mas tengo una hermana que vive en Barcelona. Pero hace 20 anos y pico que no lo practico....and I never cared about accents and special letters as my keyboard hasn;t got any....so if you don;t mind I will keep on using Barca!

gallery play wrote:..and let's not forget Madrid's altitude, it's a good 600 m above sea level. Nadal has lost to Federer, Nole, Murray (twice), Verdasco and now thiem in Madrid for a reason. Because of the altitude it's by far the fastest claycourt out there. 

And as a result, I didn’t even enjoy Thiem beating him yesterday...because he simply didn’t run and scramble enough for my liking.
The best bits were mistimed netted volleys and smashes.

Clay season has been so free of decent matches/tennis it’s depressing.

The most excited I got was watching Lajovic beat Delpo....

gallery play wrote:
Nadal has to deal with a tricky dilemma: does he want the #1 position back and open the throttle once more in Rome or does he want to avoid the risk of entering RG with too much mileage, which could mean the top spot is -especially if he does not win the USO and Fed wins- out of his reach for a long time..

I reckon number one is not Nadal’s thing atm. It’s all about slams and overtaking Fed.
He is 5 years younger and must be really annoyed Fed is sparing himself not playing clay, hence extending his career and delaying retirement.

I even think he is bored of wearing himself out playing all these pointless masters 1000 events...

So every extra year Fed stays on is a death knell to Nadal’s GOAT ambition.

Jahu wrote:Anyone saying bad things about Thiem any more, is dead 

He has a horrible haircut, the only thing missing is a small moustache...

bogbrush wrote:Edmund going to duff Shapovalov up today.

More like buff up his shoes.

summerblues wrote:This was 9th match between Rafa and Thiem - and all 9 were on clay!  Thiem is now 3-6, which is quite respectable vs Rafa.

Yes, and one of those was when Nadal was coming back from injury.
They are as bad as each other, yesterday Thiem was muscling the ball so badly I struggled to watch the match., still glad he won...and put Fed back to where he belongs without even having to play.

Is Shapovalov making SF here indication that he can play on clay or is it more indication that Madrid does not play like typical clay court. Kev is also not your typical clay courter, yet he is in SF.

noleisthebest wrote:

Jahu wrote:Anyone saying bad things about Thiem any more, is dead 

He has a horrible haircut, the only thing missing is a small moustache...

Well, yes hair is a little mommy school boy style, but he is young, as far as he keeps kicking Nadal, I will forgive his hair.

What size feet does Anderson has, 13-14? Huge.

noleisthebest wrote:I reckon number one is not Nadal’s thing atm. It’s all about slams and overtaking Fed.

That's what I think too.  I think Fed was happy to get the "oldest #1" thing but other than that I do not think either of them thinks much about it.  It is about the slam count.  Rafa still has a chance to catch up, so he will not give up just yet.

noleisthebest wrote:I reckon number one is not Nadal’s thing atm. It’s all about slams and overtaking Fed.

He'd love too but I think he knows deep down, it's out of his reach. I think number 1 is his most important goal...cause that's when his sponsors reward him most.

So every extra year Fed stays on is a death knell to Nadal’s GOAT ambition.

I seriously doubt Fed will win another slam. The way he was scrambling in AO...in spite of having a good rest before the final does not bode well.

Maybe W his last chance, unless they speed up the USO.

I wasn’t watching the match, but saw the score was 00:40 at 5:4 when Thiem was serving for the set...

And Anderson, of course, choked all BPs away.

Chokers really get on my nerves! 

OK, it’s “human” to be a choker, but seriously, if you can’t learn to handle emotions when competing as a pro don’t even bother!
I mean what is the point of all those great serves and FHs if you are going to blow it all away when it matters.

And what is it that makes one choke like that!!!

Tenez wrote:
I seriously doubt Fed will win another slam. The way he was scrambling in AO...in spite of having a good rest before the final does not bode well.

I know what you mean, the neoBH wasn’t firing like in ‘17.

Maybe he has worked on it again since Miami...esp with no clay prep or even consideration to distract him like last year.

But as far as I am concerned while he is playing he has a chance.
Both Wimbledin and USO.

Esp with a bit of luck if he can avoid the likes of Cilic etc.

Fed clearly can win another. Doesn’t mean he will but if he’s healthy, plays an easy run in to Wimbledon abd then takes care of business in the first 4/5 rounds then why not.

All the more reason it was wise to dump the clay season.

bogbrush wrote:Fed clearly can win another. Doesn’t mean he will but if he’s healthy, plays an easy run in to Wimbledon abd then takes care of business in the first 4/5 rounds then why not.

All the more reason it was wise to dump the clay season.

he might be healthy but winning 7 bo5 in 2 weeks....it;s just too demanding physically. yes he can do it....but getting more and more unlikely.

noleisthebest wrote:Thiem was muscling the ball so badly I struggled to watch the match

Glad you came around

Disappointed to see Shapo lose to Zverev. But unless he cuts down on those UEs...it will happen again.

Tenez wrote:3 - Nadal looked tired to me. Not sure why as he has 10 days rest before starting Madrid. Maybe like most, he cannot recover as easily as in the past. But to me it shows that there is a lot of bluff in Nadal's fitness. Don't get me wrong he is the fittest...but I am convinced one of his main strength is to show that he is fit more than he really is. As we know Djoko, Federer and Murray exposed that bluff a few times. Nadal if challenged during a match really needs that extra time during points, but if really challenged that extra time is simply not enough. He gets breathless and then his shots get shorter, less spinny, more erratic and he is easier to manoeuvre right and left. he becomes then victim of his own game. Thiem did expose that very clearly yesterday. 

I don't think Thiem defeated Nadal because Nadal was tired. Thiem has beaten Nadal on clay ( Slow ones ) because the slow nature of the surface allows him to execute his game better, just like it does to Nadal. They both are essentially clay courters, Nadal still being  the better one.

I hope Thiem can wrap the wonderful week of his 1st TMS final with a win. He has beaten Nadal enroute whom neither Anderson or Zverev would have beaten to reach the final.

The guy deserves the Madrid 2018 trophy ( Its an ugly trophy, but thats a different thing).

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:

Tenez wrote:3 - Nadal looked tired to me. Not sure why as he has 10 days rest before starting Madrid. Maybe like most, he cannot recover as easily as in the past. But to me it shows that there is a lot of bluff in Nadal's fitness. Don't get me wrong he is the fittest...but I am convinced one of his main strength is to show that he is fit more than he really is. As we know Djoko, Federer and Murray exposed that bluff a few times. Nadal if challenged during a match really needs that extra time during points, but if really challenged that extra time is simply not enough. He gets breathless and then his shots get shorter, less spinny, more erratic and he is easier to manoeuvre right and left. he becomes then victim of his own game. Thiem did expose that very clearly yesterday. 

I don't think Thiem defeated Nadal because Nadal was tired. Thiem has beaten Nadal on clay ( Slow ones ) because the slow nature of the surface allows him to execute his game better, just like it does to Nadal. They both are essentially clay courters, Nadal still being  the better one.

He was tired. It was dead obvious too me by the number of unforced errors. When not tired his shots are deeper, more powerful and more consistent. Apprently he was also erratic the match before v Schwartz (I did not see it). So clearly he was running out of steam. Whether it was down to Schwartz and Thiem or down to accumulated matches I am not too sure though more likely the latter in my view.

In Fact Thiem also beat Nadal last year due to accumulated matches.

What is important to understand is that Nadal is bluffing his fitness. He needs that extra time between points. A lot of his matches are won before the match and does his best in those first games to impose long and struggling rallies and discourage anyone to extend rallies. But if you do extend, he might tire first...not many can but if you do you expose his bluff.

Tenez wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Fed clearly can win another. Doesn’t mean he will but if he’s healthy, plays an easy run in to Wimbledon abd then takes care of business in the first 4/5 rounds then why not.

All the more reason it was wise to dump the clay season.

he might be healthy but winning 7 bo5 in 2 weeks....it;s just too demanding physically. yes he can do it....but getting more and more unlikely.

I’m not sure if this is a debate or an exercise in us both stating the obvious.

Clearly it’s not too demanding, he just did it in Australia. Last year he only played 3 setters, so even better. He might not win. It gets harder as the years go on. The guys won 3 of the last 4 Slams he’s entered so more unlikely looks still to equal quite possible.

I hope Thiem thrashes Zverev today.

Tenez wrote:

naxroy wrote:Its not Barca its Barça

Barça is a short name for FC Barcelona, not the town itself


If you want to use a short name for Barcelona you could use Barna (I dont like it but some catalans use it)

another chance and a good one for a forum would be Bcn

Lo se. Hablo y entiendo tu idioma. De mas tengo una hermana que vive en Barcelona. Pero hace 20 anos y pico que no lo practico....and I never cared about accents and special letters as my keyboard hasn;t got any....so if you don;t mind I will keep on using Barca!  

then you can use Barna, whis is the correct word anyway to refer to the town

expecting a great final today in madrid

bogbrush wrote:

Tenez wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Fed clearly can win another. Doesn’t mean he will but if he’s healthy, plays an easy run in to Wimbledon abd then takes care of business in the first 4/5 rounds then why not.

All the more reason it was wise to dump the clay season.

he might be healthy but winning 7 bo5 in 2 weeks....it;s just too demanding physically. yes he can do it....but getting more and more unlikely.

I’m not sure if this is a debate or an exercise in us both stating the obvious.

Clearly it’s not too demanding, he just did it in Australia. Last year he only played 3 setters, so even better. He might not win. It gets harder as the years go on. The guys won 3 of the last 4 Slams he’s entered so more unlikely looks still to equal quite possible.

That's my poiint. He did it but by the skin of his teeth and that in spite of having a good rest from Wednesday as he had a very easy one set semi! he still managed to struggle after being a set and a break up....and managed to make the most of a nervous Cilic.

He also showed poor form after it. With a bit of form he would have beaten Delpo but was again tired from his previous rounds in IW...and again physically collapsed v Kokki.

Frankly surprised you cannot see it.

noleisthebest wrote:I hope Thiem thrashes Zverev today.

same here. But Zverev is the new Djoko/Murray!

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:I reckon number one is not Nadal’s thing atm. It’s all about slams and overtaking Fed.

He'd love too but I think he knows deep down, it's out of his reach. I think number 1 is his most important goal...cause that's when his sponsors reward him most.

Maybe, but “the deep down” means little to an opportunist who leaves nothing to chance.
If Federer was to retire tomorrow, Nadal would move heaven and earth to win the 4 extra slams he needs.

That’s why he came out with those comments about Federer skipping clay, he knows it’s extending Fed’s career.

Bluffing or not, Nadal is still winning everything with ease when Federer is not on the scene.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:I hope Thiem thrashes Zverev today.

same here. But Zverev is the new Djoko/Murray!

Maybe new Murray, not new Djoko.

I saw a few games vs Shapo yesterday...he has so little to offer, yet so full of himself, a real turn-off.

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:I hope Thiem thrashes Zverev today.

same here. But Zverev is the new Djoko/Murray!

Maybe new Murray, not new Djoko.

I saw a few games vs Shapo yesterday...he has so little to offer, yet so full of himself, a real turn-off.

But he won! And Shapo again went for too much when it mattered. If he was playing 85% instead of 100% he'd win. he will learn but I must say that he and his mum look a stressed team!

Tenez wrote:But he won!

I watched from 4:4 in the first set to the end of first set (6:4)
I am assuming they were even before that.

Shapo indeed went for too much, but that is his style. He plays as if the match is on his racquet which it is and should be.

Tenez wrote:
And Shapo again went for too much when it mattered. If he was playing 85% instead of 100% he'd win. he will learn but  I must say that he and his mum look a stressed team!

Again, Shapo is like Dolgo in that respect, I don’t think he will ever be able to play in third gear.
Maybe in 10 years....

Right now, he is young and “stupid”, showing off his talent and not caring he could be doing much better if he turned the brain on. (whatever that would mean in his case).

His mother...credit to her for building him into a player he is, teaching him that great
SBH and the rest, but bless her, someone needs to tell her her time is up as a coach, it may burn her boy down unnecessarily.

I hated seeing the UE collecting smug Zverev who isn’t worthy to tie Shapo’s shoelaces yell come-ooons in his face last night.

noleisthebest wrote:he has so little to offer, yet so full of himself, a real turn-off.

He could do worse.  He could bail out midway through a losing match and then say that his opponent was clearly beatable.

summerblues wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:he has so little to offer, yet so full of himself, a real turn-off.

He could do worse.  He could bail out midway through a losing match and then say that his opponent was clearly beatable.

What a good American citizen you are!

I watched a bit of Shapo vs Zverev and I still do not think he is a "basher". He is a hard courter and is not used to playing on clay. His returning of serve was catastrophic. He either needs to learn how to return serves on clay from that close to the baseline or he needs to move further back. But the same really goes for his whole game - he was playing as if the court was a HC. Not crazy aggressive but more aggressive than the court will reward.

noleisthebest wrote:What a good American citizen you are!

???

Hopefully Thiem wins, but Zverev's form has been improving. He looked atrocious on US hard courts, but definitely better on clay. I thought he looked ok vs Chung and probably even better yesterday.

It looks like Thiem and Zverev will again this year be 2nd and 3rd best players on clay - even though neither of them looked very good until a couple of weeks ago.

Horrible start

Come on Thiem, crush this gold laced russian fuck.

Nike would not be happy if these two came to be #1/#2 in the world.

summerblues wrote:I watched a bit of Shapo vs Zverev and I still do not think he is a "basher".  He is a hard courter and is not used to playing on clay.  His returning of serve was catastrophic.  He either needs to learn how to return serves on clay from that close to the baseline or he needs to move further back.  But the same really goes for his whole game - he was playing as if the court was a HC.  Not crazy aggressive but more aggressive than the court will reward.

It just goes for too big shots and shanked a few times as a result. If he were to play 85% within himself, a la Federer, he would have beaten Zverev....well at least taken the first set as I did not watch the second set.

Chung seems injured otherwise he would not have lost timely from a possible 4/1 up v Zverev and is not playing Rome.

summerblues wrote:Nike would not be happy if these two came to be #1/#2 in the world.

Yeah, last time 2 Adidas people met in Final of Masters must of been 10 years ago, Djoko/Andy.

Looks like Thiem s not returning any better than Shapo!

Started watching in the 2nd set...what miserable tennis.

It this is the future of it, wake me up when it’s over....

Zverev standing very far back for the return and then coming closer to the baseline...a la Nadal.

Thiem hanging by fingernails.

I dislike Zverev to the point that if Nadal was chasing number 1 and nore trophies, I'd be supporting him over Zverev!