Davis Cup 2018

With all changes projected to massacre it next year, this is my/our goodbye to Davis Cup as I have known and loved it as long as I can remember.

So, here we go...one last time matches played in front of home crowds, best of five sets...as it should be!

Spain-Germany
France-Italy,
USA-Belgium
Khazakstan-Croatia

Nadal coming back to boost his confidence before clay, France defending their title, Fognini in good form, Germany with their strong team...Isner, playing for USA on the wings of his biggest Miami success...should be a decent weekend of tennis!

Looks like Nadal was not fishing during his break...demolished Kholi who is more than decent on clay  in his singles match yesterday.

noleisthebest wrote:Looks like Nadal was not fishing during his break...demolished Kholi who is more than decent on clay  in his singles match yesterday.

Decent will get decent result, which it was in 2 and half hour match. Half decent would have got home with breadsticks and donuts.

Kholscriber is a decent player, but no match for Nadal on clay.

Good doubles match between Spain and Germany.

Germans were 2 sets to love when I started watching and it’s now 2:2.

I’m off to shops for a spare packet of binbags....

noleisthebest wrote:Good doubles match between Spain and Germany.

Germans were 2 sets to love when I started watching and it’s now 2:2.

I’m off to shops for a spare packet of binbags...

I don’t believe in jinxing, but it looks like it worked, yaaaaaaay!

It was worth seeing Nadull get stressed as his doubles teammates were losing.


So tomorrow he’ll have to be at his best vs Zverev to keeep Spain in for the fifth rubber.

I guess Zverev Nadal is the first rubber tomorrow.

I do believe in jinxing!

Tenez wrote:I guess Zverev Nadal is the first rubber tomorrow.

I do believe in jinxing!

Do you, really?

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I guess Zverev Nadal is the first rubber tomorrow.

I do believe in jinxing!

Do you, really?

Oh yeah.

I only vaguely acknowledge that world, but prefer not to “play” with it.

How about you?

I remember Amri and even GP use that word a lot, so I often don’t know who thinks what!

Well it's simple. The number of times I was sure something was going to happen that I brag about it....It fails. A few examples...

1 - Was sure Fed would beat Nadal at Hamburg 2008. Nadal was knackered from his semi v Djoko and Federer was playing well. ....I think it was 5/1 up in that first set for fed.....but Nadal (and his MTO) managed to turn it around.

2 - Djoko v Nadal 2013....We know what happened!

3 - Fed v Nadal AO17....though this time it was for the good outcome.

4 - but so many times outside tennis too.

Tenez wrote:Well it's simple. The number of times I was sure something was going to happen that I brag about it....It fails. A few examples...

1 - Was sure Fed would beat Nadal at Hamburg 2008. Nadal was knackered from his semi v Djoko and Federer was playing well. ....I think it was 5/1 up in that first set for fed.....but Nadal (and his MTO) managed to turn it around.

I remember that semi...Nole had three bruising losses to Nadal in 2008 (Hamburg, Madrid (?) and Queens)
No memory of the final as I probably didn’t watch it.

Tenez wrote:

2 - Djoko v Nadal 2013....We know what happened!

3 - Fed v Nadal AO17....though this time it was for the good outcome.

I genuinelly cheer for “my” player...and really don’t think that stops them from “won” matches.

I knew Fed was going to win AO17... not difficult with him...though I was also sure he’d beat Delpo in IW before the match...that really was an odd match for Fed’s standards. He must have been super extra tired esp as his number one was kind of on the line (which I only found out during Miami...)

Amri, on the other hand takes the mickey with his  “doom and gloom” Nadal predictions of disaster before every match...

Tenez wrote:
4 - but so many times outside tennis too.

This is where the rubber hits the road for me...and I don’t like it.

(Only recently)I realised it’s better to “shut up” about things...and that’s the bit that annoys me.

Why is that so....

Cheering for your player is one thing but being too confident about a result/event has often jinxed it for me.

Actually, I think I also have some kind of jinxing experience...when I bet.
I stopped “serious” betting a few years ago, and because I watch tennis in bet365 now, sometimes I feel super happy about my player so I put a small bet...and the moment I do it they start losing.
Last time it was Ostapenko vs Sloane.
Then I console myself with “that was me paying to watch the match”....
That happened 3-4 times and I am now convinced I will never win a bet...

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Decent will get decent result, which it was in 2 and half hour match. Half decent would have got home with breadsticks and donuts.

Kholscriber is a decent player, but no match for Nadal on clay.

That is true, but not good

This was a typical result for what one can expect in Rafa vs Kohli.  But that means that Rafa may be in his typical clay court form, and will get his typical clay court results

Obviously jinxing a sporting event doesn’t happen, it’s just a by-product of the human tendency to seek patterns.

However, when it comes to personal actions there is a factor. Outcomes depend on what you do, and attitudes which change behaviour have a bearing. There are two contributions there;

- complacency arising from assumption of success
- inadequate energy arising from lack of belief in succeeding

We all know the first but in my experience the second is much more important in determining outcomes.

bogbrush wrote:Obviously jinxing a sporting event doesn’t happen, it’s just a by-product of the human tendency to seek patterns.

However, when it comes to personal actions there is a factor. Outcomes depend on what you do, and attitudes which change behaviour have a bearing. There are two contributions there;

- complacency arising from assumption of success
- inadequate energy arising from lack of belief in succeeding

We all know the first but in my experience the second is much more important in determining outcomes.

A bit like “loser” mentality?

How do you explain it?

Zverev’s got the game to trouble Nadal, not sure about the fitness, though, very nervous!

Come on, Nole!

Pathetic effort from Zverev....Fed would’ve beaten this Nadal no problem...

Hopefully the fifth rubber will be more interesting.

Fabio on clay...in Italy...in Davis Cup!

He is possibly a smoother ballstriker than Nishi!

Interesting to see Ferrer again...he’s lost his sharpness and consistency.
I can’t believe he used to have such a stronghold on number 4 ranking for ages, once upon a time, two years ago....

Kholi playing well.

The old man (well they are both old) still has it. Nadal is going to be hard to beat this season.

Poor show from Zverev. He doesn't look like a fighter. If he is ahead and wins its fine. I don't see him having the will to fight out of adversary. When he gets behind, he gives up and folds.

Tenez wrote:The old man (well they are both old) still has it. Nadal is going to be hard to beat this season.

Nadal has only been easy to beat before 2005 clay season. After that any surface, it takes a good to great performance ( what ever be it, shotmaking, defense, outlasting  anything) to beat him.

Who ever will beat him this European clay season, its not going to be Zverev or Dimi.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Poor show from Zverev. He doesn't look like a fighter. If he is ahead and wins its fine. I don't see him having the will to fight out of adversary. When he gets behind, he gives up and folds.

Agreed, though his limp attitude has only been on display this year (and part last); when he broke through, he was very much a dogged Murray-like competitor.

Maybe he’s hit his current glass ceiling and is frustrated.

noleisthebest wrote:

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Poor show from Zverev. He doesn't look like a fighter. If he is ahead and wins its fine. I don't see him having the will to fight out of adversary. When he gets behind, he gives up and folds.

Agreed, though his limp attitude has only been on display this year (and part last); when he broke through, he was very much a dogged Murray-like competitor.

Maybe he’s hit his current glass ceiling and is frustrated.

Last year he was not defending his territory. This is easier to deal with, having not much expectations one can play freely . Any result is a good result.

 But this year he is #4 and is a target to be hunted. His mental strength is being put to test, and he is crumbling.

Also the game he implies, playing safe running, too much... this can't work well for a guy his size. This could be one reason he does better in bo3 tha bo5. He might be running out of gas too with that play.

So success formula for him is go the Murray way, put 10-12 kgs of muscle mass... and build on immense stamina.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:...Also the game he implies, playing safe running, too much... this can't work well for a guy his size. This could be one reason he does better in bo3 tha bo5. He might be running out of gas too with that play.

So success formula for him is go the Murray way, put 10-12 kgs of muscle mass... and build on immense stamina.

Apparently he has put 4kg recently.

bad start but then 64 64. so it is reasonable on clay v Nadal in a DC environment. I would take heart of that result if anything.

noleisthebest wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Obviously jinxing a sporting event doesn’t happen, it’s just a by-product of the human tendency to seek patterns.

However, when it comes to personal actions there is a factor. Outcomes depend on what you do, and attitudes which change behaviour have a bearing. There are two contributions there;

- complacency arising from assumption of success
- inadequate energy arising from lack of belief in succeeding

We all know the first but in my experience the second is much more important in determining outcomes.

A bit like “loser” mentality?

How do you explain it?

Ah hah! It's a wonderful concept but here goes....

1. Inside all of us is a self-image, held by the subconscious. This internal picture is not in the conscious mind but is a deep-seated and detailed picture we hold of ourselves; the type of person we are, our strengths and weaknesses, and so on. Whether we're fat, exciting, attractive, funny, boring, a winner, a leader or follower - all this is sat in a model that locates deep, deep inside the subconscious.
2. This image is formed by what we hear and allow to be passed inside over a lifetime. What others say doesn't matter, it's what you permit through, what you tell yourself. If you think about all the times you talk to yourself in your mind, then this is exactly how you form the self-image in the subconscious.
3. If you permit negative affirmation, or say it to yourself "oh I'm such a clutz, I always screw things up, etc." then over a long time this image builds very strongly. If you reject negative affirmation and manage your self-talk positively (not stupidly, just with positive intent) then you prevent the formation of an ineffective self-image.
4. Here's the killer - your Creative Subconscious ALWAYS acts to bring reality into line with the self image. Always. It never stops doing this. This is to keep you unstressed and sane. If you live a life totally divorced from the self image then you go loopy. 
5. The creative subconscious is, as the name suggests, not about your conscious thinking. It's acting in the background but it is FAR FAR more powerful than your conscious mind because it is running everything every second. It decides your pulse rate, your nerves, your confidence level, everything.

Therefore, if your self image is poor, or that of a loser, believe it or not no matter what opportunities life throws up your subconscious will intervene to screw them up because if you took them you'd be acting outside the image. So, if you think women won't find you interesting then you'll stammer and stutter when you meet them, or you'll tell yourself they're not worth the trouble, or that it's a mugs game to have relationships. You might think you're in control but it's your creative subconscious managing you to avoid acting out of line with the self-image. Hell, if you’re like that and a women TELLS you you're great you'll have an affair, or let her down, or dress poorly and fail to try with her to "prove" she's wrong.

If a great business opportunity comes along, you pass it by, or simply screen it out so you don't see it, or you create distrations so you're so "overwhelmed" that you don't have time to pick it up. You might subconsciously make yourself busy so you can fail but have a good excuse "Oh, it's all very well that the idea came to me first but I was totally snowed under / too busy / prevented......" and COMPLETELY believe it (that’s how the subconsciously helps keep you happy.
In the opposite scenario, have you ever noticed how when you really want something you happen to notice things - adverts, finds comments, new people - who are associated with the solution? That's your subconcious at work, filtering what's valuable from what's not and putting it to you for action.

This is why so much media information is tantamount to crippling abuse, telling young people, or poor people that they can't change their lives, that's it's not their fault, it's all some big conspiracy to stop them. Poor b@$tArd$, they have no chance once that's found it's way into the self-image.

True change cannot happen consciously. It has to begin by altering the internal self image. There are techniques to do this that are slightly akin to hypnosis, but they aren't that. It takes time but the biggest thing is to manage the SELF TALK. No other voice has the same power that you do because your own comments go straight to the subconscious without edit and sometimes we are brutally destructive in what we say - imagine you had someone who spoke to you the way some of us speak to ourselves? You'd punch them in the face!!.

It's also why parents must NEVER, EVER run their kids down, because the authority of a parent is accepted by the child. You tell your kid he's an idiot, or a waster... then do that and you'll be proven right but it's your fault.


Here's a business example. I truly believe that I am a person who can find a way out of any tight situation. Every one. No matter how tricky. I just can. And guess what? I always do. Why? Not because I've got a high IQ (though that comes in handy )  but because my creative subconscious goes to work to force me to find solutions because to do otherwise isn't safe for my mentality; thus, I'll notice solutions or routes that otherwise I wouldn't have and I will never stop looking because the energy is released inside me to keep going. A powerful self image is VASTLY more valuable than high IQ because a brilliant person with a crap self-image will just very efficiently fail or give up (with a brilliantly described reason why nobody could have succeeded).

bogbrush wrote:
Ah hah! It's a wonderful concept but here goes....

1. Inside all of us is a self-image, held by the subconscious. This internal picture is not in the conscious mind but is a deep-seated and detailed picture we hold of ourselves; the type of person we are, our strengths and weaknesses, and so on. Whether we're fat, exciting, attractive, funny, boring, a winner, a leader or follower - all this is sat in a model that locates deep, deep inside the subconscious.

The horror of human existence!

Is this your own theory?
It has elements of Freud ad Jung.
Christians call it "soul".

bogbrush wrote:
2. This image is formed by what we hear and allow to be passed inside over a lifetime. What others say doesn't matter, it's what you permit through, what you tell yourself. If you think about all the times you talk to yourself in your mind, then this is exactly how you form the self-image in the subconscious.

I am losing you here; in the first paragraph you say this picture is not in conscious mind, yet here you say the image is formed by what we allow our senses to pass inside.
I can't separate consciousness and senses. You can't experience any senses without being conscious.

bogbrush wrote:
3. If you permit negative affirmation, or say it to yourself "oh I'm such a clutz, I always screw things up, etc." then over a long time this image builds very strongly. If you reject negative affirmation and manage your self-talk positively (not stupidly, just with positive intent) then you prevent the formation of an ineffective self-image.

OK, but how and why does one say these things?
Why do some reject negative affirmation and some don't?

bogbrush wrote:
4. Here's the killer - your Creative Subconscious ALWAYS acts to bring reality into line with the self image. Always. It never stops doing this. This is to keep you unstressed and sane. If you live a life totally divorced from the self image then you go loopy. 

Now you introduce Creative Subconscious.
What is that?
Collective consciousness?
I am afraid I don't understand what you mean.

bogbrush wrote:
5. The creative subconscious is, as the name suggests, not about your conscious thinking. It's acting in the background but it is FAR FAR more powerful than your conscious mind because it is running everything every second. It decides your pulse rate, your nerves, your confidence level, everything.

Again, I am not following you.
Where did you get this term?

bogbrush wrote:
Therefore, if your self image is poor, or that of a loser, believe it or not no matter what opportunities life throws up your subconscious will intervene to screw them up because if you took them you'd be acting outside the image. So, if you think women won't find you interesting then you'll stammer and stutter when you meet them, or you'll tell yourself they're not worth the trouble, or that it's a mugs game to have relationships. You might think you're in control but it's your creative subconscious managing you to avoid acting out of line with the self-image. Hell, if you’re like that and a women TELLS you you're great you'll have an affair, or let her down, or dress poorly and fail to try with her to "prove" she's wrong.

Yes, but you still don't answer the main question: what makes one have poor self-image.
Or make moral choices like in your acceptance or refusal of adultery.

bogbrush wrote:
If a great business opportunity comes along, you pass it by, or simply screen it out so you don't see it, or you create distrations so you're so "overwhelmed" that you don't have time to pick it up. You might subconsciously make yourself busy so you can fail but have a good excuse "Oh, it's all very well that the idea came to me first but I was totally snowed under / too busy / prevented......" and COMPLETELY believe it (that’s how the subconsciously helps keep you happy.
In the opposite scenario, have you ever noticed how when you really want something you happen to notice things - adverts, finds comments, new people - who are associated with the solution? That's your subconcious at work, filtering what's valuable from what's not and putting it to you for action.

Mmmm...yes, partly.
Again, one can just have a bad day, or a bad patch in life caused by external circumstances (death, illness etc).
Also, people change, learn from experience.
Just look at tennis players...Stan used to be a loser and a choker once upon a time...

bogbrush wrote:
This is why so much media information is tantamount to crippling abuse, telling young people, or poor people that they can't change their lives, that's it's not their fault, it's all some big conspiracy to stop them. Poor b@$tArd$, they have no chance once that's found it's way into the self-image.

But you can apply that to all people, not just poor or young.
99% of people are not happy yet do next to nothing to change themselves or their lives.

bogbrush wrote:
True change cannot happen consciously. It has to begin by altering the internal self image. There are techniques to do this that are slightly akin to hypnosis, but they aren't that. It takes time but the biggest thing is to manage the SELF TALK. No other voice has the same power that you do because your own comments go straight to the subconscious without edit and sometimes we are brutally destructive in what we say - imagine you had someone who spoke to you the way some of us speak to ourselves? You'd punch them in the face!!.

Yes, I know some of those techniques and they are very helpful.

bogbrush wrote:
It's also why parents must NEVER, EVER run their kids down, because the authority of a parent is accepted by the child. You tell your kid he's an idiot, or a waster... then do that and you'll be proven right but it's your fault.

Agreed.
Damage done to children under the age of 7 can rarely be undone later in life.

bogbrush wrote:
Here's a business example. I truly believe that I am a person who can find a way out of any tight situation. Every one. No matter how tricky. I just can. And guess what? I always do. Why? Not because I've got a high IQ (though that comes in handy )  but because my creative subconscious goes to work to force me to find solutions because to do otherwise isn't safe for my mentality; thus, I'll notice solutions or routes that otherwise I wouldn't have and I will never stop looking because the energy is released inside me to keep going. A powerful self image is VASTLY more valuable than high IQ because a brilliant person with a crap self-image will just very efficiently fail or give up (with a brilliantly described reason why nobody could have succeeded).

Strangely, having been an academic snob most of my life, I have to agree with IQ being a bit overrated.
Emotional balance and maturity, coupled with wisdom in later years are far more useful and attractive.
Though, I still have a huge weak spot for brilliant minds.

Looks like BB has read abput psychology since our last metaphysical conversations. It's quite interesting to see the evolution in the thinking process as he now admits an "image" or thoughts can have an influence on dead atoms!

Not at all, this is perfectly simple if you think about it.

I’ll spell it out.

- most of our minds activity is carried out without conscious thought. The vast majority.
- this subconscious has to have a reference point to control towards.
- that reference point is what you have to control rather than trying to steer yourself consciously.

It’s actually perfectly consistent with what I said before. If you wanted to push it, it’s programming. Can’t get more mechanical than that.

Nitb, I won’t copy / reply because it’s too long.

You asked how does the self image become formed. It’s formed by incessant affirmation into the subconscious by conscious imprinting. That’s why you can control this if you understand how to.

This is done by finding strong words that conjure a strong picture of what you want and feeling the positive emotion of being that way. You have to commit, don’t discount it while you’re doing it, say, see and feel it. If you really understand it, it works. We all do it accidentally all our lives, trouble is that a lot of it can be very damaging. Managing the process towards the outcomes we want is the trick.

Even more important though is to be aware of the relentless volume of self talk you do all day, every day, and to make it positive.

You can certainly experience sensory input without consciousness, in fact it’s impissible to do otherwise. The vast majority of external input is not recognised by your conscious mind. If you’re sat on a chair are you perpetually aware of the pressure of every part of the chair on your body? Do you recognise every sound that reaches your eardrum? Of course not, your subconscious filters what’s perceived as useful to you and passes it on. The rest gets ignored. And your conscious mind doesn’t do any of this. That’s why if your subconscious isn’t attuned to what you need to succeed it will filter it out and there isn’t a thing you can consciously do about it. You have to act on the internal picture. Once you’ve done that it’s like you go on auto pilot to do what previously you tried like crazy but failed to do.

Of course this applies to everyone, I just cited the damage done to the poor or young. And obviously crap can happen to anyone but it buries some and bounces off others. This is why.

It’s not Freud or Jung. This guy is how I came across this about 30 years ago. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R5ZIK2sdnVE

Crappy quality video but I like it more than the cheesy corporate style his institute has gone since he aged & passed away.

I'm a bit busy atm, but will have a look at the clip later.
Looks interesting.

I'd be very happy to help you (or anyone as it happens) understand it more. It's the single biggest factor in how you run your life and what you achieve. Miles and miles ahead of accident of birth.

If everyone understood this and put it into practice the World would be completely different. Vastly lower crime, almost no dependency culture, people living fulfilled lives, etc.

bogbrush wrote:I'd be very happy to help you (or anyone as it happens) understand it more. It's the single biggest factor in how you run your life and what you achieve. Miles and miles ahead of accident of birth.

If everyone understood this and put it into practice the World would be completely different. Vastly lower crime, almost no dependency culture, people living fulfilled lives, etc.

Thanks BB.
I had a look at the clip, it's cut short and the guy comes across a bit dry.
Still, I think I got his point.
As you probably know, psychology is relatively "young" science and "self-help" movement came out of it in the last 20-30 years...(your guy seems to be at the beginning of it) with many shallow charlatans, but also some helpful characters (Gail Brenner, Gary Bishop...I think you'd like him a lot, he wrote a book "Unf*k Yourself...here is a little taster clip of him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcEQ2tr9VQ
G. Brenner (who is a clinical psychologist) explains controlling thought process as well as emotions quite well.
They both give some very useful, practical, applied tips and techniques.

I have a manifold interest in psychology, both the practical and theoretical/spiritual side of it.
I love playing with questions, eg "what are thoughts", who sends them...why can we only have one thought at a time.
I believe there is a mathematical formula to all of us...just too far beyond us to "crack"

But yeah...I find it a total irony of life that the one person we should know best - ourself is so obscure to us.
And by the time we get to realise that, we are already formed in many ways, or rather caged in by "life".