ATP Masters 1000: SHANGHAI, QUARTER-FINAL

noleisthebest wrote:Champagne Super-Novak rules in Shanghai

Yes, he certainly played very confidently, hitting the ball cleanly.

Tenez wrote:

If you look at the old players (Step, Haas, Federer, Nalby, Blake etc...) have all flatter shots cause that was the only way then. Topspinning with nat gut coudl only be done on clay. The one who actually became better with time is Ferrer, always a topspinner cause string have given him a second life. Federer also adapted his game from 2007 hitting much spinnier that he had to to cut down on UEs.

Novak hits the ball flatter than Haas and Step.
Haas played from the baseline almost the entire match today. Bad choice. Used his slice only to draw the error in rallies just like Murray.
Stepanek is a lot more unconventional and played a far better/gutsier match/game than Haas.

Robbie: "Federer enjoying being back in the penthouse"

Cilic is Fed's dream kind of opponent.

noleisthebest wrote:[Novak hits the ball flatter than Haas and Step.

I am afraid that's a myth! There is a lot of wrist action in Nole's shots. First his racquet is too light to allow a flat hitting and you see quite a bit his shots nowadays with the racquet ending up above his head.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:[Novak hits the ball flatter than Haas and Step.

I am afraid that's a myth! There is a lot of wrist action in Nole's shots. First his racquet is too light to allow a flat hitting and you see quite a bit his shots nowadays with the racquet ending up above his head.

what do you mean by wrist action?

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:
Well yes half the battle is the string. Natural gut players who could volley could hit a much lower and flatter volley with weight. The players nowadays have to play a volley with virtually no backspin because yes the balls are much lighter. However if they time their runs to add power to the volley from their momentum they would be much competent volleyers. Roddick and Federer do this so well compared with others.

But you are seeing this from the volleyer perspective. What I am saying is that Djoko and Murray for instance would have much less secure shots with nat gut and they would lose considerable power on their shots unless they hit flatter (and riskier) a la old generation AND that in turn woudl make the task much easier for the volleyer. You can see the UEs coming from Haas and Step cause they have no choice to hit flatter: 1 cause they learnt tennis that way (with nat gut) and secondly cause they don;t have the lungs to keep the ball in and engage in long rallies.

That view is also from a volleyer in terms of looking how different strings would make it easier for them to execute more easier volleys. I do understand what you are saying, but given the control that Djokovic and even Murray show would mean that they might adopt a much more attacking game. It worked for Agassi later in his career.

Take Stepanek. He plays a precise game based on accuracy compared with power. The age factor also needs to be taken in account. What Haas and Stepanek can do is punish players who may not have the same depth as a Djokovic or Murray. The one advantage Stepanek and Haas have not jumped on is the slice. If they had an effective slice, they could contest rallies without the requirement of speed or stamina.

legendkillar wrote:The one advantage Stepanek and Haas have not jumped on is the slice. If they had an effective slice, they could contest rallies without the requirement of speed or stamina.

But the slice is an obsolete shot nowadays because it sits up anywhere bar on grass and new strings have no problem handling this shot nowadays. A slice invites to rallying and this is what Step and Haas do not want.

noleisthebest wrote:what do you mean by wrist action?

A kind of whip action. Look at hos racquet head when he hits the shot. it makes a very round (rotation) mouvement. When you hit flatter it's very different. On his BH of course he hits flatter but he has 2 hands and that allows a better control of the racquet and the ball.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:The one advantage Stepanek and Haas have not jumped on is the slice. If they had an effective slice, they could contest rallies without the requirement of speed or stamina.

But the slice is an obsolete shot nowadays because it sits up anywhere bar on grass and new strings have no problem handling this shot nowadays. A slice invites to rallying and this is what Step and Haas do not want.

What it offers is valuable recovery in a rally. Look at Federer. He got the mix spot on against Djokovic and even Murray. What Haas and Stepanek don't have is a slice which they can hit near the baseline. What I admired about Federer besides the overwhelming talent is the intelligence to know that an effective slice fits hand in hand with a volley dominated game. He did well against Benneteau and what he did well against Murray was force him to hit short on a slice that opened up for a flatter shots.

Pure genius.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:what do you mean by wrist action?

A kind of whip action. Look at hos racquet head when he hits the shot. it makes a very round (rotation) mouvement. When you hit flatter it's very different. On his BH of course he hits flatter but he has 2 hands and that allows a better control of the racquet and the ball.

Is that on all his FH shots or just cross-court?

I actually think that Federer's slice, as nice as it looks, has been his downfall in most cases cause it hands the initiative to the opponent.

In the past a classic shot for the volleyers was to slice DTL or cross court while reaching the net to finish with a volley. Nowadays no-one does that cause the slice is a slow shot and allows those faster players to get easily to the slice and pick a spot to pass.

Completely different dynamics sadly. Yes Fed uses it but 1, his genius makes it a better slice than all other players and secondly he came back to number one by actually cutting on it and hitting a more solid topspin BH with less shanking. He was using the slice BH a lot prior 2009.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:what do you mean by wrist action?

A kind of whip action. Look at hos racquet head when he hits the shot. it makes a very round (rotation) mouvement. When you hit flatter it's very different. On his BH of course he hits flatter but he has 2 hands and that allows a better control of the racquet and the ball.

Also Djokovic hit's over the ball which generates the spin too. He doesn't finish with his racquet above his head on most FH's. I find he does that more on the defence. He comes up and over the ball. Nadal and Murray almost have a like for like finish with their FH's when they complete the shot. Djokovic tends to have a much straighter arm on the follow through.

Tenez wrote:I actually think that Federer's slice, as nice as it looks, has been his downfall in most cases cause it hands the initiative to the opponent.

In the past a classic shot for the volleyers was to slice DTL or cross court while reaching the net to finish with a volley. Nowadays no-one does that cause the slice is a slow shot and allows those faster players to get easily to the slice and pick a spot to pass.

Completely different dynamics sadly. Yes Fed uses it but 1, his genius makes it a better slice than all other players and secondly he came back to number one by actually cutting on it and hitting a more solid topspin BH with less shanking. He was using the slice BH a lot prior 2009.

I very much agree with that statement. Federer doesn't look as off balance as others who play it and he also plays the shot with as much string on it as possible. Murray for example makes the frame do most of the work which is odd given how well he plays the drop shot.

I found this NITB which is something I noticed a long time ago. http://www.606v2.com/t17170-djokovic-s-success-explained?highlight=djokovic

Tenez wrote:I found this NITB which is something I noticed a long time ago. http://www.606v2.com/t17170-djokovic-s-success-explained?highlight=djokovic

Very sweet of you, thanks
I'll pay extra attention when I go to O2 and watch him from close up

legendkillar wrote:Also Djokovic hit's over the ball which generates the spin too.

I guess that is why we call it "top spin"

Djokovic tends to have a much straighter arm on the follow through.

Th earm might follow through but the wrist does most of the job. Just look at the racquet head.

What a shocker of a game from Federer, Cilic breaks back.

And the 300 weeks penthouse resident goes through. Plays Murray in the second semi tomorrow.

Well that rounds that up.

Federer, Djokovic, Murray and Berdych all through.

Should make for some juicy matches tomorrow.

The semis shoudl be interesting. Fed was playing well today but it helps to be given so many free points. Murray is a bit more stingy with UEs.

I dunno Ten.

If Murray coughs up the short stuff, Fed will just hit him off the court.

The Berd/Nole match has me intrigued.