A measure of talent....

The ratio between Average second serve speed by Average first serve speed.

the The bigger the ratio (closest to 1) the more talented a player.

It's certainly not going to be a perfect criteria....but it is one.


Just based on their Wimby first round:

Nadal Djoko Federer Stan Murray
92 100 99 103 87
116 117 115 125 114

79.31% 85.47% 86.09% 82.40% 76.32%

There is more info to add as for instance height is also a factor.

We should make a list!

So far:
1) no screwing up face on ball contact
2) closeness of speed between 2nd and 1st serve.


We need a stat fanatic to make us a nice chart for serve speed, at least top 10 players!

Oh, you added the stats now!
I'd love to see them for Krunic and Mannarino.

Amazing but not surprising gap for Nadal and especially Murray.

Djoko yesterday: 85.22%

k Anderson 88.19%

Raonic 89.15%

I suppose it's also i pirtant who's returning, that can make a server nervous and upset the rhythm.

noleisthebest wrote:I suppose it's also i pirtant who's returning, that can make a server nervous and upset the rhythm.

I'd say not that much....in theory.

What's important is the size. The taller, the closer the ratio should be to 1. So in fact we should work penalty percentage points per inches to get a more precise image of talent.

In that case, Berankis is doing well. He plays so many TBs.
And Krunic, her serve is impressive for her size.
Same as Dolgo.

I think we can safely say Dustin s the king of gutsy second serve!

Not necessarily, I think it's an interesting stat but you have to look at any other factors.

For example the surface, going for a faster second serve on clay may not be as useful as going for a faster second serve on grass.
Also it could depend on confidence on your baseline game. Another thing which could influence it is the return of serve of your opponent.

When I think of slow second serve, Murray comes to mind; and Brown today was serving some second serves at 130mph... but is Brown really much more talented than Murray ?

Kimmy,
I can assure you Brown has talent to export...

He just isn't a workhorse like most other talented people.
Talented people almost never get the best out of themselves, they just put in the minimum to get by
Federer is an exception.

Murray has no other chance but to work like a dog to achieve anything.
Mind boggles where Brown would be with that attitude...

noleisthebest wrote:Kimmy,
I can assure you Brown has talent to export...

He just isn't a workhorse like most other talented people.
Talented people almost never get the best out of themselves, they just put in the minimum to get by
Federer is an exception.

Is getting the most out of your talent in itself a talent ?

I think I answered your question while I was editing my post.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:Not necessarily, I think it's an interesting stat but you have to look at any other factors.

For example the surface, going for a faster second serve on clay may not be as useful as going for a faster second serve on grass.
Also it could depend on confidence on your baseline game. Another thing which could influence it is the return of serve of your opponent.

When I think of slow second serve, Murray comes to mind; and Brown today was serving some second serves at 130mph... but is Brown really much more talented than Murray ?

It's a combination of talent and gut. If you can consistently serve as pacy as your first serve, it means you can have a good feel for the ball. It's a measure but agree not the only one. Taking the ball early is certainly another one. What Nadal coudl not do today for instance....without giving too many UEs.

Kim Jong-Un wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Kimmy,
I can assure you Brown has talent to export...

He just isn't a workhorse like most other talented people.
Talented people almost never get the best out of themselves, they just put in the minimum to get by
Federer is an exception.

Is getting the most out of your talent in itself a talent ?

Nah, only Nadal fans come up with that kind of schtick. They'll look for anything to big up their talentless moonballing balding hero.

Talent is Federer - the guy can do anything

TMF wrote:They'll look for anything to big up their talentless moonballing balding hero.

I think your posts are immature and bordering on infantile.

Not sure about this criterium because it also depends on the strategy a player choses. A player whose main weapon is the serve is more likely to take risks on the second serve than a player whose main strength is his groundgame and who is confident in his ability to control the point without the serve putting the opponent on the backfoot imediately.

So all big servers go for huge second serves. Karlovic bombed some in yesterday, faster than the first serves of other guys. The amazing thing was that he hit almost no doublefault, unlike Querrey e.g. who also took risks on second serve but paid with DFs at some inopportune times.

Brown average 2nd serve pace is at 91% of his first. The highest I have clocked so far!!!!

Nadal's was 80% yesterday.

Autumnleaf wrote:Not sure about this criterium because it also depends on the strategy a player choses. A player whose main weapon is the serve is more likely to take risks on the second serve than a player whose main strength is his groundgame and who is confident in his ability to control the point without the serve putting the opponent on the backfoot imediately.

So all big servers go for huge second serves. Karlovic bombed some in yesterday, faster than the first serves of other guys. The amazing thing was that he hit almost no doublefault, unlike Querrey e.g. who also took risks on second serve but paid with DFs at some inopportune times.

Yes that's true for tall servers as the chances to land a serve in the box is better for them. This is why I say some "penalty per inch size" should be considered. But look at Raonic...though he has a good percentage (average 2nd serve pace/ average first serve) it's not as good as it should be.

This is a ridiculous criteria for talent.

At most you can deduce (very tenuously) that someone has a talent for serving from these stats.

It certainly doesn't reflect talent in other areas.

Whatever next? The ratio of nose size to arm size

Since when talent in one area defines talent in others?

In short, the better one serves the more talented a player, inversely proportionally to his/her size.

Serve is probably the only shot where talent beats fitness now.
You can not learn natural timing and coordination needed for that perfect, silent sweetspot contact.

Those who've got it know it and can rely on it.
Those who don't also know it and are much safer on the 2nd serve just making sure they put the ball in play.

It's the fear of missing again that's causing them to serve safely.
Talented players don't have that fear.

noleisthebest wrote:Serve is probably the only shot where talent beats fitness now.
You can not learn natural timing and coordination needed for that perfect, silent sweetspot contact.

Those who've got it know it and can rely on it.
Those who don't also know it and are much safer on the 2nd serve just making sure they put the ball in play.

It's the fear of missing again that's causing them to serve safely.
Talented players don't have that fear.

yes. It's not that different than a golf swing....except that in tennis the taller you are the bigger the target, hence the easier it is to serve hard. But even amongst tall players we can see those who have talent and those have less of it.....

But serve has a lot to do with guts too but as you say the more talented players rely on their timing and feel and should typically have a higher pace for the second serve.

Today fed's Av second serve was at 85% pace of his first
Murray at 75%
Djoko at 80%
Gasquet at 84%

56 winners, 11 ue's. 

Tennis from another planet.

luvsports! wrote:56 winners, 11 ue's. 

Tennis from another planet.

That certainly was the key. If only he coudl reproduce that on Sunday. The score was still quite tight but I think Fed could have broken a couple more times. Was a bit unlucky at times.....while never really bothered on his serve.

What is also bizarre is fed keeps covering more ground than his opponents!..Would you have guessed that he covered more ground tham Murray....fractionally more but still.

Unlike Murray who clocks his court mileage mainly running, Federer makes a lot of little adjustment steps.

I recon he covers about a metre per shot (esp when he runs around his BH).

There are metres and then there are metres....

Well yes I was wondering what the stat is really telling. Having rewatched the match this morning (nothing better to start the weekend ) Those DHBH certainly can keep the center of the court and force a single HBH to cover more ground. That's a bit annoying but it's clearly an advantage to find better and safer angles with a DBH.....plus Murray and Djoko loop the ball more on the FH, with the sole intention to force runnig too....while Fed hits flatter with less angle.

So I suspect Murray certainly runs 10% less but has to run faster to get to those flatter shots. And when you weight 15 extra kg (minimum, I'd think)...it certainly is much more physical.

I rewatched it, too...not to analyse, just to check it wasn't all a dream.
And it looked even better than yesterday!

SUB-LI-ME!

You guys will like this from djoko. What the players understand, but the Kimmie's never will:
@TennisReporters: Djokovic: 'We are baseline players. We are not as talented as Roger. Wins his service games in 30 seconds."


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The way the scoring system in tennis works, one service game could make all the difference.
You could have easy hold in 30 seconds for 5 service game, but if at 5-5 you play one bad one, the set could be gone. It's about consistency and peaking in the right moments. That in itself is a talent I think.

truffin1 wrote:You guys will like this from djoko. What the players understand, but the Kimmie's never will:
@TennisReporters: Djokovic: 'We are baseline players. We are not as talented as Roger. Wins his service games in 30 seconds."


banghead.gif

Yep....So the wimbledon organisers have to answer those questions. How come baseliners are at a huge advantage nowadays.

R

Kim Jong-Un wrote:The way the scoring system in tennis works, one service game could make all the difference.
You could have easy hold in 30 seconds for 5 service game, but if at 5-5 you play one bad one, the set could be gone. It's about consistency and peaking in the right moments. That in itself is a talent I think.

Consistency and peaking at the right moments..... Which Federer has also done better than anyone in history- hence the all time wins,finals,semis,quarters records he holds. The weeks at #1,2,3, oldest or 2nd oldest player in open era history to continue to hit those bench marks.  

The djoko quote wasn't about the 30 second service holds anyway- it was a general statement that Overall Federer and his game requires more talent than the baseliners.  He talked about the pressure federer puts on his opponents by taking away their time which "Andy and i need that time. We are baseline players. We are not as talented as roger."I just cut the quote off at the quickness of serve comment as he then continues to talk about the problems Feds game creates