Barcelona Open 500

No shock. Just decline. Nadal fans have had their day, and so has Nadal. About time. I knew this year would catch him out. Now... let's have my best prediction... that he will lose in French.

This season will end the Nadal Goat talk in everyone but his diehard fanatics.

I think we are seeing a bit of the effects of Nadal not cycling down much last year. I think we've had the discussion before-  in the past dopers had to cycle down to prevent damage to their bodies and also to prevent dimishing returns during the cycle up if the body was too used to the dope. This used to last 4-6 weeks or so- pretty perfect for a tennis eeason, and also why Nadal was so inconsistent in his results  during stretches of the season.  The past few years I understand the technology has gotten to the point where the athlete can dope nearly constantly without the fear of massive damage to the organs...     However- and I don't know this factually- but I have to think there is a point where the body gets so used to the dope that like in the past- you just dont' get the same reaction.   diminishing return.     Every time Nadal has dominated for a long (for him) stretch- he has followed it up with a stretch of lesser results, eventual "injury" and time off..      It's happening again.

SR wrote:I'm confused, but alma is from Murica. He's not Catalan. I still don't understand why they rooted for him. Is it main land Spain vs Mallorca?

Well yes but the Mallorcans speak catalan and would typically support catalan speakers. ..yet they seemed to support Almagro but that was essentially down to Alma's game ....I guess.

SR wrote:Besides, what type of man will choose pseudos like "It Must Be Love" or Julia to represent them?

But they are both tennis references, so they are not quite randomly chosen.  I thought the Julia one in particular also shows Amri being a good sport.  It came at a time when this forum was disappointed with the handling of the evidence in the Puerto case, and he was - jokingly of course - willing to identify himself with the "bad guys".  Sort of similar to how he called himself Larry Ellison at one point.

summerblues wrote:

SR wrote:Besides, what type of man will choose pseudos like "It Must Be Love" or Julia to represent them?

But they are both tennis references, so they are not quite randomly chosen.  I thought the Julia one in particular also shows Amri being a good sport.  It came at a time when this forum was disappointed with the handling of the evidence in the Puerto case, and he was - jokingly of course - willing to identify himself with the "bad guys".  Sort of similar to how he called himself Larry Ellison at one point.

Not quite.
"It must be love" is a nice song from the 80s by Madness.
I actually think Amri is a youngish, romantic guy trying to impress a woman from this website where he is a "tennis correspondent".
Here, we provided him with an enviroment where he was able to "shine" in his resilient defence of Nadal, and once he was starting to "lose the debate", he left.
It must be love, indeed!
I also think he, like many men, likes Nadal not because he plays for the other team as some have suggested, but because he is a projection of what he would like to be: strong and invincible!

That aside, do you have a link to Tennistalk forum? I could not find it.

Nadal looks both shaken and stirred in his post-match interview yesterday, almost unpleasant to watch...
Interesting how he thinks Almagro did not play anything special...(didn't Nole say all the way back in 2006 you don't have to play anything special to beat Nadal  )



Also, funny to finally hear Almagro's voice and see him in a press conference...sounds just like all other Spaniards!



Last but not the least, a bit of that "ordinary" performance and ball-striking from Almagro yesterday:

truffin1 wrote:I think we are seeing a bit of the effects of Nadal not cycling down much last year. I think we've had the discussion before-  in the past dopers had to cycle down to prevent damage to their bodies and also to prevent dimishing returns during the cycle up if the body was too used to the dope. This used to last 4-6 weeks or so- pretty perfect for a tennis eeason, and also why Nadal was so inconsistent in his results  during stretches of the season.  The past few years I understand the technology has gotten to the point where the athlete can dope nearly constantly without the fear of massive damage to the organs...     However- and I don't know this factually- but I have to think there is a point where the body gets so used to the dope that like in the past- you just dont' get the same reaction.   diminishing return.     Every time Nadal has dominated for a long (for him) stretch- he has followed it up with a stretch of lesser results, eventual "injury" and time off..      It's happening again.

I thought Nadal looked and played as physical as always. The rest have caught up but can strike the ball a bitt better and with more courage than him...that's the difference: the physical gap is closing down.
Problem for Nadal is, he has nowhere to go now as he can't take the ball early and use all that muscle to his advantage by playing closer to the baseline and playing a bit more risky.

Finally, Earnie...such effortless charm and charisma, no sweat!



Go Earnie!

Here it is!

Tenez wrote:
How is Djoko's wrist BTW?

His wrist appears not to be as badly injured as originally thought. I am so relieved!
Apparently, he will be ready for Madrid.

truffin1 wrote:I think we are seeing a bit of the effects of Nadal not cycling down much last year. I think we've had the discussion before-  in the past dopers had to cycle down to prevent damage to their bodies and also to prevent dimishing returns during the cycle up if the body was too used to the dope. This used to last 4-6 weeks or so- pretty perfect for a tennis eeason, and also why Nadal was so inconsistent in his results  during stretches of the season.  The past few years I understand the technology has gotten to the point where the athlete can dope nearly constantly without the fear of massive damage to the organs...     However- and I don't know this factually- but I have to think there is a point where the body gets so used to the dope that like in the past- you just dont' get the same reaction.   diminishing return.     Every time Nadal has dominated for a long (for him) stretch- he has followed it up with a stretch of lesser results, eventual "injury" and time off..      It's happening again.

I think we should not underestimate the opposition getting better and getting used to playing the game that makes a champion win. Borg did not decline at 27, nor McEnroe or Edberg at the same age. The tour simply moves on and players learn the "science" that make champion last longer. What was striking yesterday is that Alma was hinting great sharp shots after 2hours. No decline unlike the many times he played Nadal in the past. In fact out of the last 5 times they played the 2 and 3rd sets have always been more one sided than the first one (in Nadal's favour of course). So that says maybe that Alma himself might be better trained like many others on tour.

Also I have always said that technically players improve with age till well into their 30s and so is their timing. So to me there is no surprise that Alma and Stan's BHs (as well as FHs) will improve in the next few years. They are just about entering their peak at 28!....and certainly not declining yet.

Problem is that though Nadal's shots are improving too, he is imo not improving as fast as others cause his strength has never been his shots but his fitness which as you say might certainly have been stretched too. If players start to make him run thanks to more solid and angled shots, we might see others do what only Djoko could do before.

Interesting....But I think confidence for Nadal was the main issue yesterday. Let's not forget he could have easily won in 2 easy straight sets yesterday and we would not be having that discussion. But more and more players think he is beatable now cause they simply have better weapons too.

noleisthebest wrote:Not quite.
"It must be love" is a nice song from the 80s by Madness.

But it also is a motto that has been used by the US Open the last few years.

noleisthebest wrote:That aside, do you have a link to Tennistalk forum? I could not find it.

Here, just please do not throw me out of here for advertising a competing forum :

http://tennistalk.freeforums.org/index.php

Actually, madness covered that song. But unlike today's copies, they put their own style and art into the song. The original composer features in the video

If you watched US Open on TV here the last few years, you would have seen an awful lot of commercials like this one.  They do not use It Must Be Love song.  There are also usually plenty of "It Must Be Love" billboards at the USO grounds.  I am assuming this was Amri's reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTU4-L7gQyg

Nishi Gulbis time.  2:2 in the first set.

Over in Romania, it looks like Monfils retired down 1:5 in the first set.

Nishi now leads 5:2 with a couple of breaks.

6:2, all one-way traffic so far.  Nishi has been quite impressive so far this year.

BTW, in theory, Nole could take #1 spot in Madrid.

Not very likely though:  Nole would have to win the title and Rafa would have to lose his opening match.  Then again, these days, it could happen I suppose

Much more realistic for Nole to take over as #1 after Rome.  Pretty much whoever performs better in the Madrid/Rome combo will likely be #1.

Yes and frankly, Nadal doesn't play like a number 1 anyway.

Home at last, hope the match is not over yet!


COME ON EARNIE!!!!!!!

Tenez wrote:Yes and frankly, Nadal doesn't play like a number 1 anyway.

But he did play like a No 1 for much of last spring and summer, when Nole was a bit subpar, so it all averages out, and that is why he is still #1 in the rankings.

I am sure Rafa will be more than happy to advertise that Nole is the main favorite for RG.

summerblues wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Not quite.
"It must be love" is a nice song from the 80s by Madness.

But it also is a motto that has been used by the US Open the last few years.

noleisthebest wrote:That aside, do you have a link to Tennistalk forum? I could not find it.

Here, just please do not throw me out of here for advertising a competing forum :

http://tennistalk.freeforums.org/index.php

Oh yes, I remember now. Just don't see how that motto has anything to do with the USO...
It would suit It Must Be Ca$h! Better...

Had a quick look at that forum, thanks for the link. Still looks like MTL to much chit-chat and not enough tennis...

I am strangely not too worried about Nole being number one; "just" want him to win RG and USO.
I would love if Fed could regain it once more. Then Nole can take over from there...

summerblues wrote:

Tenez wrote:Yes and frankly, Nadal doesn't play like a number 1 anyway.

But he did play like a No 1 for much of last spring and summer, when Nole was a bit subpar, so it all averages out, and that is why he is still #1 in the rankings.

I am sure Rafa will be more than happy to advertise that Nole is the main favorite for RG.

All those points are a coming off.   

I knew Nishi would handle Earnie with ease.
But that's Earnie for you...he'd rather die than train to be a road-runner and improve his movement and defend better.
It's nice to have someone human and real on tour like that.

noleisthebest wrote:It's nice to have someone human and real on tour like that.

"human and real" as in "lazy"?

Just checked Bucharest scores, a nice final there tomorrow Rosol-Dimitrov.

I remember Rosol's won it last year, his first (and only?) title, and he was very emotional because his father had died during that tournament.

summerblues wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:It's nice to have someone human and real on tour like that.

"human and real" as in "lazy"?

No, I don't think Gulbis is lazy at all. On the contrary.
He just doesn't want to mess up his tennis and go down the route everyone else seems to have gone. He would have been much more successful in any other era I think.

noleisthebest wrote:No, I don't think Gulbis is lazy at all. On the contrary.

What makes you say that?  It is hard to be sure from where we sit, but - to me -  the indications would seem to be he is lazier than most.

noleisthebest wrote:Just checked Bucharest scores, a nice final there tomorrow Rosol-Dimitrov.

I remember Rosol's won it last year, his first (and only?) title, and he was very emotional because his father had died during that tournament.

I am quite impressed that Rosol managed to repeat his final appearance here.

FedererKing wrote:All those points are a coming off.   

Indeed.  Here is the breakdown of Rafa's and Nole's points:

Rafa - total 13310
through USO: 8815
after USO: 4495

Nole - total 11040
through USO: 4140
after USO: 6900

Nole has outperformed Rafa by about 2400 points post-USO.  Clay court season is the period where Rafa needs to make up the ground, but so far he has not done it.  And if he cannot perform on clay, it is even harder to see how he would defend his Canada-Cinci-USO stretch.

So yes, Nole already breathing down his neck, and Rafa still has an awful lot of points coming off.  The only place he has a good chance to make up some good ground is at Wimbledon.

summerblues wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:No, I don't think Gulbis is lazy at all. On the contrary.

What makes you say that?  It is hard to be sure from where we sit, but - to me -  the indications would seem to be he is lazier than most.

To start with, unlike just about everyone else on tour, he has never had any financial incentive to play tennis.
For him to go and train, it takes twice as much resolve and perseverance since he does not have the natural hunger like say Canas (I think it was him) who got caught doping because he had to support his family.

When you have a full stomach, it's much harder to motivate yourself to do anything.

Look at Dimi: he has hired Rasheed. What is Rasheed doing for Dimi's tennis skill and variety: nothing!
What is he doing for his fitness: everything!

So...Earnie could go down that route, but doesn't want to, just like the rest of us who play for fun and love of the game.
Once money goes in - it's the end, hence my sarcastic remark on the choice of USO's logo...

noleisthebest wrote:I am strangely not too worried about Nole being number one;  "just" want him to win RG and USO.

Of course, if he wins RG, he is guaranteed to get to #1 - even if he goes out in his opening matches in Madrid/Rome and Rafa wins both Madrid and Rome.

I was so worried about Nole after Monte Carlo.
I just don't know what was wrong with his wrist/forearm that could go away so quickly, it can only have been tendonitis, or a pulled muscle, but still...I hope he knows what he is doing.
I am going to Paris for the RG final and would be over the moon if he was to win it.
One of the reasons is that he has had a huge desire to hear Serbian anthem play under his name. He missed that at both Olympics.
RG is the only slam that does it, and I think it's quite nice and special.

When Ana Ivanovic won it in 2008, she shed a few tears during the ceremony, so you can imagine what mess Nole and I are going to be if.....
I'd better not fantasise too much

noleisthebest wrote:To start with, unlike just about everyone else on tour, he has never had any financial incentive to play tennis.
For him to go and train, it takes twice as much resolve and perseverance

Ok, so maybe we are not really disagreeing.  He acts lazier than most, but not because he is lazier, but rather because it is more difficult for a rich guy to not act lazy.  I can believe that.

noleisthebest wrote:just like the rest of us who play for fun and love of the game.

But they should not play for fun and love of the game.  Or rather, it is fine if they have fun and love the game, but it is just coincidental, that is not something that should matter at all.  The rest of us play tennis in our spare time, so it is an entirely different thing.  Sure, if two accountants like to play their weekly Saturday match, I am hoping they do it for fun and love of the game.  But if you do nothing else productive with your life rather than play tennis, then it is your job, much like when someone works as a janitor.  And their job is to win tennis matches, not have fun, so if they focus more on their fun, they are effectively cheating us - and in the process "selling their souls" so to speak - using your terminology.

summerblues wrote:

FedererKing wrote:All those points are a coming off.   

Indeed.  Here is the breakdown of Rafa's and Nole's points:

Rafa - total 13310
through USO: 8815
after USO: 4495

Nole - total 11040
through USO: 4140
after USO: 6900

Nole has outperformed Rafa by about 2400 points post-USO.  Clay court season is the period where Rafa needs to make up the ground, but so far he has not done it.  And if he cannot perform on clay, it is even harder to see how he would defend his Canada-Cinci-USO stretch.

So yes, Nole already breathing down his neck, and Rafa still has an awful lot of points coming off.  The only place he has a good chance to make up some good ground is at Wimbledon.

Nadal has less than that now. On Monday he will be 410points shorter.

SB,
do you know if Tennistalk allow advertising other forums?
If so, could you advertise OTF there?

I'm pretty sure Laverfan comes here and sends people PMs inviting them to post there etc, I know she did that when I was at v2...twice!

I have no problem with that, just despise the hypocricy that they don't allow it on their boards...well, for OTF at least.

summerblues wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:just like the rest of us who play for fun and love of the game.

But they should not play for fun and love of the game.  Or rather, it is fine if they have fun and love the game, but it is just coincidental, that is not something that should matter at all.  The rest of us play tennis in our spare time, so it is an entirely different thing.  Sure, if two accountants like to play their weekly Saturday match, I am hoping they do it for fun and love of the game.  But if you do nothing else productive with your life rather than play tennis, then it is your job, much like when someone works as a janitor.  And their job is to win tennis matches, not have fun, so if they focus more on their fun, they are effectively cheating us - and in the process "selling their souls" so to speak - using your terminology.

Now you are pulling that one out of nowhere, and I have completely forgotten the context in which I mentioned it.
The original point was that I didn't think Gulbis was lazy.
I also think that tennis despite being most pros' bread-winning job, is still their great love. Many have secured their financial status and don't need to play for money any more.
I know for sure that for example Fed, Dolgopolov, Paire, even Nole get great pleasure and satisfaction when they pull off a special shot...just like the rest of us.
Once tennis gets into your bloodstream - you're done!

But, the flip-side of any professionalism is those with less talent and ability will still want to succeed and that's where the problems begin...historically climaxing in/with Fedal.
We have never seen a huger contrast in just about everything "tennis" related.

noleisthebest wrote:I know for sure that for example Fed, Dolgopolov, Paire, even Nole get great pleasure and satisfaction when they pull off a special shot...just like the rest of us.

And that is a good thing of course.  My point is that when we are comparing tennis players to ourselves, we should be comparing to ourselves in our daily job capacity rather than in our tennis playing capacity.

And just like in any job, while it is obviously better if one enjoys their job and has fun doing it, it ultimately matters most that we try to do our jobs well, even if we happen not to enjoy it so much.  For better or for worse, there are plenty of occasions in life when in order to do one's job well, one has to take on mundane tasks that are not much fun.  Just like everyone else, I expect tennis players to persevere through those mundane parts rather than decide not to because "it is not fun".  So, for example, if tennis conditions favor defensive baseline play, tennis players should not play attacking tennis just because they find it more fun.

That of course does not apply when ordinary folks have their fun weekend matches.

noleisthebest wrote:But, the flip-side of any professionalism is those with less talent and ability will still want to succeed

But nothing wrong with that, as long as it is done within the rules.

noleisthebest wrote:SB,
do you know if Tennistalk allow advertising other forums?
If so, could you advertise OTF there?

Sure, I will check and if they do not mind I can do that.

But on a more fundamental note, do you want to grow this forum or are you just happy with its current size?  The general tone of this forum will probably make it harder to make it grow anyway, so I was thinking you kind of liked it the way it was now.

summerblues wrote:

SR wrote:Besides, what type of man will choose pseudos like "It Must Be Love" or Julia to represent them?

But they are both tennis references, so they are not quite randomly chosen.  I thought the Julia one in particular also shows Amri being a good sport.  It came at a time when this forum was disappointed with the handling of the evidence in the Puerto case, and he was - jokingly of course - willing to identify himself with the "bad guys".  Sort of similar to how he called himself Larry Ellison at one

SB, interesting but I'm not convinced.

Although Amri is UK-based, I have no problem with the US-oriented reference. A reference is just a reference. The question for me is this: is a man or a woman more likely to choose something like It-must-be-love as his pseudo? In other words, if you were a guy, are you really comfortable with people calling you "it-must-be-love" or "Julia/Helen/Dorothy..." or "Reincarnation (Amri used this briefly)"?

Anyway back when OTF just started, i read a couple of posts (don't remember by who now) informing that Amri told SoCal that Amri is a she. I have always remembered and believed this and that's the main reason why I think of Amri as a she. Also, I've a niece who never wore a dress or a skirt in her life. Her FB picture looks like a male. 

Of course, I could be totally mistaken and wrong about Amri. But until I hear from Amri herself otherwise, I'm sticking to my instinct.

summerblues wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:SB,
do you know if Tennistalk allow advertising other forums?
If so, could you advertise OTF there?

Sure, I will check and if they do not mind I can do that.

But on a more fundamental note, do you want to grow this forum or are you just happy with its current size?  The general tone of this forum will probably make it harder to make it grow anyway, so I was thinking you kind of liked it the way it was now.

It's best if you ask Tenez.

I am just a poster here. You know me....I am happy even when I am talking to myself!
For me it's all about quality, not volume. I like the tone of this forum as its strength is love for tennis, more than tribal wars.
I enjoy insights and observations, sharing personal experience, there are so many nice things to talk about when it comes to tennis, but unfortunately people seem to often prefer personal agenda and that spoils it for me.

I do understand this is a forum, and believe me, what a learning experience it has been over the years!
Just like playing tennis...always another move/shot to master.

I go all over the place now and then...was so depressed about the state of tour/tennis at the end of 2013...but then Monday morning comes and another lovely, brand new fresh tournament begins, and I get excited all over again!

SR wrote:But until I hear from Amri herself otherwise, I'm sticking to my instinct.

Amri quite explicitly stated on a number of occasions that he is a guy.  Since it is all the same to me - I am here to discuss tennis rather than posters' personal matters - I am happy to just go with what he says.

More on the topic of posters.  Does anyone know what happened to LS?  He seems to have just vanished one day - both from here and v2.

But he told SoCal he's a she and at the same time other people he is a he. Typical Amri  
Never mind, topic closed. Thanks for the info anyway.

noleisthebest wrote:

truffin1 wrote:I think we are seeing a bit of the effects of Nadal not cycling down much last year. I think we've had the discussion before-  in the past dopers had to cycle down to prevent damage to their bodies and also to prevent dimishing returns during the cycle up if the body was too used to the dope. This used to last 4-6 weeks or so- pretty perfect for a tennis eeason, and also why Nadal was so inconsistent in his results  during stretches of the season.  The past few years I understand the technology has gotten to the point where the athlete can dope nearly constantly without the fear of massive damage to the organs...     However- and I don't know this factually- but I have to think there is a point where the body gets so used to the dope that like in the past- you just dont' get the same reaction.   diminishing return.     Every time Nadal has dominated for a long (for him) stretch- he has followed it up with a stretch of lesser results, eventual "injury" and time off..      It's happening again.

I thought Nadal looked and played as physical as always. The rest have caught up but can strike the ball a bitt better and with more courage than him...that's the difference: the physical gap is closing down.
Problem for Nadal is, he has nowhere to go now as he can't take the ball early and use all that muscle to his advantage by playing closer to the baseline and playing a bit more risky.

That's kind of my point though I might not have phrased it well. I believe by not cycling down much last year- he cannot get the improvement that he needs to constantly stay ahead of the oncoming crowd.  He might be able to maintain the same level- but his body is basically doped to the max now and he can't improve from here.   Cycling down allows the body to rev up even more on the next cycle up. He can't get the rev up past the level his body has settled at now  Using a steroid example.. a weightlifter will get big on steroids, cycle down and cycle back up to get bigger. At some point if not cycling down and let the body come off of it--    but keeps doping he'll stay just as big as before, but not go beyond that.   Lose his hair and bad effects.

If Nadal suddenly takes some time off---  I will fully believe it's to try and cycle down and recapture some momentum.

To Tenez's point-  I think under this scenario- his confidence would take a huge blow knowing his body is unable to improve and his opponents are able to last with him. No different than Fed's confidence shaken by a real injury.  IF you know your body is stuck in a certain level- and it's not enough to win like in the past--  the only hope is that your body will eventually be able to improve again.

summerblues wrote:More on the topic of posters.  Does anyone know what happened to LS?  He seems to have just vanished one day - both from here and v2.

This was his, I believe temporary farewell back in February:

luvsports! wrote:Shame about evans losing to haas in 3.

Btw OTFers I am may not be posting much in the next 4 months as I hope to be starting my new job at PGL in Scotland
tc!

summerblues wrote:More on the topic of posters.  Does anyone know what happened to LS?  He seems to have just vanished one day - both from here and v2.

I thought you said you don't want to discuss poster's personal matter?  

WOW, never thought we'd see Nishi vs Gira in the final sans nadal.