The biggest GS's final surprise ever – Stan demolishes the biggest cheater of tennis in its history ever

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:35 pm

The biggest congratulations to Stan. He absolutely deserves it Bubbly

That is a great success and great news for all true tennis fans, players and for all who occurs in tennis. Stan as a real outsider for the GS final, which he has never played and has never beat that scum, clearly smashed the biggest cheater in tennis game and that has been done by his tennis skill despite that clown tried everything possible to get him off his rhytm.

I couldn't watched due to I have played a mix tennis tourney today, but I actually didn't want to hear an ongoing result. When I got an info that Stan took the first set, I started to believe that he could do it. Since then on I didn't ask anybody until the tourney finished. Not bad my result, we took the unpopular fourth place, which was a bit sad, but then I got an info that Stan won. What a sheer pleasure. Great day thanks to Stan. Stan just made my day as brilliant.

When I was coming at Brno in the morning I had some flowing phantoms how the game could look like when Stan plays in his full gas and saw how he can dominate. Then I didn't want to think about more, because all positive dreaming was interrupted due to memories of his cheating manners and I just gave up further thinking.

What a brilliant news and what is more in a while I start watching from a record of Eurosport channel. Really looking forward to watching Bubbly

by noleisthebest Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:00 pm

Great news for tennis every way you look at it!
1) Nadal lost (and every time he loses - tennis wins)
2) we have a new slam winner who plays with a SBH and wins playing clean tennis with no gamesmanship
3) Nadal will probably never win another AO, so that double slam thing he wanted so badly isn't going to happen.
4) Fed still keeps a huge 4 GSs in front of Nadal
5) this win could be great further inspiration to traditionally choking players, to play gutsily and not fear top players, turn the table and actually WIN tournaments. Even after losing 12 or 14 matches in a row.

I must say I didn't expect Stan to win this match, and am still amazed he won AO, as he is not a great mover and has quite a basic, brick-layer style game which I don't even find particularly attractive, but hats off to him for believing and persevering.
In those first two sets I saw, he really went for his shots committing 100% to them and that is the toughest thing to do for anyone, especially someone playing his first slam final against a player he never even won a set of.
He truly blew Nadal off the court and imposed his own fast tempo, never succumbing to being dragged into the sapping long rallies, bravo Stan!

So, a fresh New Year and an exciting, happy start!

by noleisthebest Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:09 pm

And before I forget, at lunch I raised the glass twice:
first time to the beginning of the end of Nadal, and after that to Stan and SBH Bubbly

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:11 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Great news for tennis every way you look at it!
1) Nadal lost (and every time he loses - tennis wins)
2) we have a new slam winner who plays with a SBH and wins playing clean tennis with no gamesmanship
3) Nadal will probably never win another AO, so that double slam thing he wanted so badly isn't going to happen.
4) Fed still keeps a huge 4 GSs in front of Nadal
5) this win could be great further inspiration to traditionally choking players, to play gutsily and not fear top players, turn the table and actually WIN tournaments. Even after losing 12 or 14 matches in a row.

I must say I didn't expect Stan to win this match, and am still amazed he won AO, as he is not a great mover and has quite a basic, brick-layer style game which I don't even find particularly attractive, but hats off to him for believing and persevering.
In those first two sets I saw, he really went for his shots committing 100% to them and that is the toughest thing to do for anyone, especially someone playing his first slam final against a player he never even won a set of.
He truly blew Nadal off the court and imposed his own fast tempo, never succumbing to being dragged into the sapping long rallies, bravo Stan!

So, a fresh New Year and an exciting, happy start!

Absolutely. Stan's win gives all SHBH's hope that even on slower HC they can blow off the biggest cheating lefty moonballer ever. I can stay positive due to Stan's win about a half of year. That is amazing result.

I would have never written that Stan will do it, there was just a hope, but that is all about Peace Dove

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:14 pm

noleisthebest wrote:And before I forget, at lunch I raised the glass twice:
first time to the beginning of the end of Nadal, and after that to Stan and SBH

I won't sleep tonight, just drinking a good wine. I still keep smiling for everything as if I was on something, but that is nothing for me. Only glasses of white wine Bubbly

by Tenez Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:18 pm

It makes Federer's tamed loss to Nadal even more bizarre...knowing Nishi, Dimi got close and Stan crushed him.

It's very much like 2013 for fed....cause like in Brisbane he played very well...until the final where he was so much worse than previous days and then again here He played very solid until that semi where clearly he could not serve and move as well....in fact his very poor FH towards the end of his semi was very reminiscent of 2013...even 2012.

by noleisthebest Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:20 pm

Stan has finally bulldozed through and shown the way!

The biggest GS's final surprise ever – Stan demolishes the biggest cheater of tennis in its history ever Caterpillar-d9-bulldozer

The biggest GS's final surprise ever – Stan demolishes the biggest cheater of tennis in its history ever Caterpillar-d9-bulldozer

by noleisthebest Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:38 pm

Tenez wrote:It makes Federer's tamed loss to Nadal even more bizarre...knowing Nishi, Dimi got close and Stan crushed him.

It's very much like 2013 for fed....cause like in Brisbane he played very well...until the final where he was so much worse than previous days and then again here He played very solid until that semi where clearly he could not serve and move as well....in fact his very poor FH towards the end of his semi was very reminiscent of 2013...even 2012.

Yes, his FH let him down in that match. He was dragged to Nadal's slow level, whereas Stan had his FH firing like never before and made up for his lack of movement with the speed of his shots.
Fed needed to trust his FH, but his footwork just was not there.
I am sure he is more than happy with how AO panned out for him in the end, he did say he is expecting to peak for Europe and spring.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:42 pm

Tenez wrote:It makes Federer's tamed loss to Nadal even more bizarre...knowing Nishi, Dimi got close and Stan crushed him.

It's very much like 2013 for fed....cause like in Brisbane he played very well...until the final where he was so much worse than previous days and then again here He played very solid until that semi where clearly he could not serve and move as well....in fact his very poor FH towards the end of his semi was very reminiscent of 2013...even 2012.

I thought a lot about Fed's loss in semi. I really thought that Fed can smash him if his back are ok. But Fed's face looked worried badly from the beginning. Not easy to say whether that was just due to his back or he was so irritated by adding irritating points within the match.
At the beginning Nadal left Fed waiting on the court before his first serve game a half of minute. Is this normal? Why can Fed keep his composure, when he sees that an umpire is not able to do anything and Nadal's team is playing such a circus from the beginning. That is a sheer disaster. The first set was a decider. Fed had a couple of chances, but he completely lost his composure.
When you add a cooler temperature, many Nadal's idiotic fans and that blind umpire, could he keep a cool head on the court?
Yesterday I told my friends that a way how Stan could beat that cheater would be to hit his head with a racket when smashing volley at the net as if by an accident. He would deserve it.
Fed still has a game to beat this scum, but he needs to be ok, physically and mentally.

by SayonaRa Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:04 pm

paulcz wrote: I really thought that Fed can smash him if his back are ok. But Fed's face looked worried badly from the beginning.

I agree, paulcz. It's fatigue and simply the lack of will to fight in a bad match-up.

To me Fed looked like a spent force already in the semi after beating Tsonga and Murray back to back. I had said in another post that Warwri and a few other top guys could have easily beaten him too in that low form. I think if he had met nadal in an earlier round, the out come of their match would have been very different when fed was still relatively fresh. He might not have won it but at least he would have been able to make it competitive.

I'm so happy another Swiss was able to finish the job for Fed today. Oh, if only Roger has Stan's stamina.

by Tenez Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:04 pm

Yes I agree Paul.....Fed can certainly get closer than what he showed on Friday. He was completely off form.

by noleisthebest Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:22 pm

I don't think Fed ever has lack of will or any confidence problems against any player, incl. Nadal.
He may not look forward to playing some of them as he knows what to expect, but I am sure he enters every match wanting and expecting to win.

Some days he feels better than the others and on top of that, you just never know 100% how the match is going to turn out.

Momentum is a fine thing, and in slow conditions, when everything is stacked against you, little things can swing a match.

Federer did create a couple of chances in the first set, but never materialised them, had he won it, who knows...

He is too good a player to fear anyone on the court.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:28 pm

SR wrote:
paulcz wrote: I really thought that Fed can smash him if his back are ok. But Fed's face looked worried badly from the beginning.
I agree, paulcz. It's fatigue and simply the lack of will to fight in a bad match-up.

To me Fed looked like a spent force already in the semi after beating Tsonga and Murray back to back. I had said in another post that Warwri and a few other top guys could have easily beaten him too in that low form. I think if he had met nadal in an earlier round, the out come of their match would have been very different when fed was still relatively fresh. He might not have won it but at least he would have been able to make it competitive.

I'm so happy another Swiss was able to finish the job for Fed today. Oh, if only Roger has Stan's stamina.

Yes SR, if Roger had Stan's body and peace of mind these days.
I really liked the way Fed played both matches with Jo-Wi and Murray. He hit ball pretty clearly, his move and footwork was excellent and his net game superb. I am convinced that Fed struggled with his back again. He spoke about game's possibilities which he has now, when his stamina is really ok, but he tried to shorten rallies from the beginning, did many UEs. his footwork gradually deteriorated, many cheap mistakes at the net. That was not Fed from his previous matches.
Now I have a feeling that Fed took another lesson from Nadal's another antics as he started yelling like a pig, which is surely a new a sign of his concentration. I can't understand how somebody can speak about him in a positive way. Nadal is a total bag of shits.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:29 pm

Tenez wrote:Yes I agree Paul.....Fed can certainly get closer than what he showed on Friday. He was completely off form.

and more importantly his back are ok soon.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:35 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I don't think Fed ever has lack of will or any confidence problems against any player, incl. Nadal.
He may not look forward to playing some of them as he knows what to expect, but I am sure he enters every match wanting and expecting to win.

Some days he feels better than the others and on top of that, you just never know 100% how the match is going to turn out.

Momentum is a fine thing, and in slow conditions, when everything is stacked against you, little things can swing a match.

Federer did create a couple of chances in the first set, but never materialised them, had he won it, who knows...

He is too good a player to fear anyone on the court.

Totally agree.
You know when you feel your chance and everything goes against you, then your blood just boils. The third set was about hit or miss. To top that match, God seemed to have some really hard work with famine somewhere in Africa Peace Dove

by noleisthebest Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:48 pm

The best thing of all is that Stan showed shot-making in tennis still wins titles.
Delpo, Berd...they are all happy to rally and take their time, there is nothing stopping them from going for their shots, they've got the power.
I am so happy Ferrer is now looking to finally drop out of top 4.

Stan has shaken the ATP tree with this win well and truly, and the rotten apples will be falling off soon.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:04 pm

noleisthebest wrote:The best thing of all is that Stan showed shot-making in tennis still wins titles.
Delpo, Berd...they are all happy to rally and take their time, there is nothing stopping them from going for their shots, they've got the power.
I am so happy Ferrer is now looking to finally drop out of top 4.

Stan has shaken the ATP tree with this win well and truly, and the rotten apples will be falling off soon.

Stan's stocky body can really generate a great power and his SHBH is like a dynamite.
His today's win is a great motivation for Berd and others, that he just can do it as well. I saw most of Berd"s match and he wasn't a worse player. He just choked TBs. Delpo's problem is his fragile body.

I had worries that Stan will not resist due to his stamina and his BH side will drop since the second set, but he definitely played on adrenaline and was on fire, just played his the best match ever. So far I have seen just a couple of Stan's winners and these were shots like from a cannon. Nadal chickened out and therefore played a circus. Stan could revitalise his body and thereby power, so in the end it worked for Stan well and a big credit to him, that he kept his focus till the end.

by SayonaRa Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:06 pm

noleisthebest wrote:I don't think Fed ever has lack of will or any confidence problems against any player, incl. Nadal.
He may not look forward to playing some of them as he knows what to expect, but I am sure he enters every match wanting and expecting to win.

Some days he feels better than the others and on top of that, you just never know 100% how the match is going to turn out.

Momentum is a fine thing, and in slow conditions, when everything is stacked against you, little things can swing a match.

Federer did create a couple of chances in the first set, but never materialised them, had he won it, who knows...

He is too good a player to fear anyone on the court.

Lack of will is not the same as lack of confidence.

When you know you’re driving a vehicle out of fuel, no amount of will would make it do the work you want it to do. That’s want I meant by “lack of will” in Fed’s case vs Nadal in the semi or to put it another way, “out of form,” in Tenez’s words. In other words, he knows he will have less and less control of his game when his body goes out of shape. When that happens, he accepts his fate and gives up more and more of his will to fight because he knows he physically can't. This is not a criticism of Fed. We're just trying to understand and come to terms with a natural development in his career.

I don’t mean he fears anyone. Of course not. At this stage now Fed only fears one thing: his back caving in on him. Sad

by SayonaRa Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:10 pm

Stan has now beaten Nadal, Djoko and Murray in a Slam, but not Fed. Will be interesting if they do meet in RG.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:17 pm

SR wrote:Stan has now beaten Nadal, Djoko and Murray in a Slam, but not Fed. Will be interesting if they do meet in RG.

Then my money would be definitely on Fed. I am curious about Stan's coming matches, that's impossible to claim that he will go in that great form, but definitely he has already become a better player.

by Daniel Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:18 pm

The truth is, Fed has lost that many times to Nadal that the belief is not there. He is a bad match up to Federer and one handed back hand players, but Fed is not even turning up with any positive thoughts. I know how hard it is to break a mental block but he has to do it. Nadal is not a god. He's a limited player that can be exposed as one with the right game plan and execution. Even on slow courts.

by SayonaRa Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:30 pm

paulcz wrote:
SR wrote:Stan has now beaten Nadal, Djoko and Murray in a Slam, but not Fed. Will be interesting if they do meet in RG.

Then my money would be definitely on Fed. I am curious about Stan's coming matches, that's impossible to claim that he will go in that great form, but definitely he has already become a better player.

can't be so sure anymore. it all depends now if he's back will hold up. I also wonder what's now in store for Stan. Will he be a one-slam wonder or will he continue to dazzle us with his amazing tennis. Such a good start for tennis 2014 full of suspense. Cheers

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:32 pm

FedererKing wrote:The truth is, Fed has lost that many times to Nadal that the belief is not there. He is a bad match up to Federer and one handed back hand players, but Fed is not even turning up with any positive thoughts. I know how hard it is to break a mental block but he has to do it. Nadal is not a god. He's a limited player that can be exposed as one with the right game plan and execution. Even on slow courts.

Fed is too intelligent player not to perceive that all cirucss from Nadal's team, which does everything to run Fed off his rail. They are big proffs at it and sadly quite successful.

by Polly 81 Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:37 pm

I think (and I hope) that Federer could capitalize on when Nadal's fitness starts to drop in the next few years. (If both keep on playing)

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:37 pm

SR wrote:
paulcz wrote:
SR wrote:Stan has now beaten Nadal, Djoko and Murray in a Slam, but not Fed. Will be interesting if they do meet in RG.

Then my money would be definitely on Fed. I am curious about Stan's coming matches, that's impossible to claim that he will go in that great form, but definitely he has already become a better player.
can't be so sure anymore. it all depends now if he's back will hold up. I also wonder what's now in store for Stan. Will he be a one-slam wonder or will he continue to dazzle us with his amazing tennis. Such a good start for tennis 2014 full of suspense.

Definitely.
Then there is a point, whether can Stan play so focused against Fed. Now it looks, that he should.

Having seen two first points from the match, Stan started brilliantly.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:43 pm

Polly 81 wrote:I think (and I hope) that Federer could capitalize on when Nadal's fitness starts to drop in the next few years. (If both keep on playing)

Their age gap is too big to wait for it. Nadal is just a biggest cheater ever, let's forget about his supposed troubles with his knees, it is already a parody.

by SayonaRa Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:45 pm

Polly 81 wrote:I think (and I hope) that Federer could capitalize on when Nadal's fitness starts to drop in the next few years. (If both keep on playing)

My dear Polly, the sad news is, as long as his doctor keeps giving him the magic potion on schedule, usually in the spring season, his fitness NEVER drops then. It only gets better with the advance of modern medicine. Winking

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:47 pm

That canon on Nadal's moonball was brutal. And another FH long line, amazing, such a backhand from Stan. There is nothing to wonder about, Stan broken Nadal's spirit already in the third game of that final. That is an utter demolition.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:52 pm

That match is similar to the math when Jo-Wi demolished Nadal at AO 2008.

by noleisthebest Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:53 pm

Polly 81 wrote:I think (and I hope) that Federer could capitalize on when Nadal's fitness starts to drop in the next few years. (If both keep on playing)

I think we don't need to wait for Nadal's fitness to drop.
I think a healthy Fed would beat Nadal in Wimbledon or any slightly faster playing conditions.

by Polly 81 Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:06 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Polly 81 wrote:I think (and I hope) that Federer could capitalize on when Nadal's fitness starts to drop in the next few years. (If both keep on playing)

I think we don't need to wait for Nadal's fitness to drop.
I think a healthy Fed would beat Nadal in Wimbledon or any slightly faster playing conditions.

Oh yes and that as well. But to make a significant improvement in the h2h. Anyway, actually thinking about it, as time goes by, they are not going to be meeting as frequently in the future. They always met in finals before, they're getting knocked out before meeting each other nowadays.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:07 pm

How Stan digged out himself from 0:40 in last game of the first set was the last nail beyond Nadal. Stan, the Man played just brilliant match. And he nailed it by an ace, there is nothing to speak about. Nadal was full of shits after the first set, no back troubles for sure.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:15 pm

Nadal is scared from a baggel in the second game of the second set. As we say canary's song comes closer.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:27 pm

Obviously Nadal started playing a comedy at the score when he had a chance to come back into that match. His head was full of fears and started thinking how he could get out of that demolition and disrupt Stan's focus. Horrible and disgusting, nothing new.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:31 pm

His face expression says it all, there is nothing serious with his back, just fears. He tries everything on the court and feels that he just doesn't have a chance, Stan served excellently.

by Tenez Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:43 pm

It does not need to be serious....with him his physique is everything...He does not look too bad when Federer beats him 63 60 in London 2011 but AO 2012, a couple of months later filled with "power" he gives Fed a good beating. Today Nadal is under par in that first set even.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:43 pm

Till the second set it is just Nadal's theater, no serious back injury. When Nadal feels that he just has no chance, then his sick head thinks about everything how he could get out of it. He couldn't play a circus with blisters, that he already said that he doesn't want to speak about, then the knees, that story was on a table for a good half of the year, so logically there had to be something new, so why not back. Please open your eyes, Nadal at the beginning of the third set hits balls as heavily as he can. Timing is ok, ball length is ok, so all parameters getting body from split work well, so no back trouble for sure.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:46 pm

Tenez wrote:It does not need to be serious....with him his physique is everything...He does not look too bad when Federer beats him 63 60 in London 2011 but AO 2012, a couple of months later filled with "power" he gives Fed a good beating. Today Nadal is under par in that first set even.

There is no player over 25, who doesn't have some body troubles on the tour. Seriously nothing to be worried with Nadal's back, that is a sheer comedy.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:52 pm

paulcz wrote:
Tenez wrote:It does not need to be serious....with him his physique is everything...He does not look too bad when Federer beats him 63 60 in London 2011 but AO 2012, a couple of months later filled with "power" he gives Fed a good beating. Today Nadal is under par in that first set even.

There is no player over 25, who doesn't have some body troubles on the tour. Seriously nothing to be worried with Nadal's back, that is a sheer comedy.

Today Nadal wasn't under par, but Stan played beyond par. Nadal just thinks that Stan is not going to finish it, there is still hope, but Stan's serve is so good, that he just doesn't get a sniff. Now Nadal serve for the third set. So, curious how he improves his serve.

by Tenez Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:55 pm

Disagree there.....Stan played extremely well cause the ball was easier to time. I have no doubt that the best of Stan can beat Nadal...on faster conditions...but I doubt Stan would have been allowed to play that well in that first set had Nadal played close to Friday's level.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:56 pm

When you have a real back trouble, you just plays in more uprighted posture, while Nadal still plays in his usual body hitting posture.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Tenez wrote:Disagree there.....Stan played extremely well cause the ball was easier to time. I have no doubt that the best of Stan can beat Nadal...on faster conditions...but I doubt Stan would have been allowed to play that well in that first set had Nadal played close to Friday's level.

Just to watch again closely, Stan just took his chance so brilliantly that he didn't allow Nadal to breath. Fed was too cautious and mistakish to give him worries. Stan absolutely brilliant, Fed unsettled and fragile. The difference between them is so striking.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:04 pm

Seen a rallye in the fourth set when Nadal leading 2:1 and 30:0 and Nadal hits a ball as he started playing. Nothing with his back, just he is inspired too much from Malorca theater.

by Tenez Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:17 pm

paulcz wrote:When you have a real back trouble, you just plays in more uprighted posture, while Nadal still plays in his usual body hitting posture.

I am not saying it is a typical back problem, it looked like a cramping dorsal muscle.

by paulcz Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:21 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:When you have a real back trouble, you just plays in more uprighted posture, while Nadal still plays in his usual body hitting posture.
I am not saying it is a typical back problem, it looked like a cramping dorsal muscle.

I see the fourth set and it is a brilliant tennis and there are no signs of any health troubles of Nadal.

by N2D2L Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:21 pm

Tenez wrote:
paulcz wrote:When you have a real back trouble, you just plays in more uprighted posture, while Nadal still plays in his usual body hitting posture.
I am not saying it is a typical back problem, it looked like a cramping dorsal muscle.

Lmao!!!
Typical Nadal fan making excuses.
Open your eyes and stop being blinded by Nadal's muscles.
It's all a scam and dumb gullible Nadal fans like you are falling for it because you are too stupid. Laugh

Nadal's serving in the 3rd set was his top level, he was generating great pace, I've never seen him serve like that. Stop believing the Nadal fanboys at the IBM stats centre who tell you he averaged 80mph on serve, they are untrustworthy.

by Tenez Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:26 pm

JS - No point ridiculing the situation. Nadal has taken so many strategic MTO that it is not surprising many of us don't believe him. I still believe there is a lot of acting in that injury. Whatever his pain, it is emphasised beyond proportion and it is disrespectful to Stan. I am not happy the way he behaved again. Its pathetic!

As I said I believe many have gone through such problems and none have behaved that badly...not even Murray!!!

by N2D2L Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:28 pm

Even if Rafa's legs were blown off people on this forum would be saying he's taking a fake MTO.
Summerblues would probably say 'I'm just being a bit cynical here, but can't he just lie on the ground and try to hit the ball with a really big racket?'

by Tenez Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:34 pm

But why should we know about his physical problems? I am still arguing that Federer had problems Friday like in many of his matches from 2008...yet we hear hardly anything from Fed, and we certainly do not see the trainer coming SYSTEMATICALLY like it is the case for Rafa.

Can't he lose admitting that his body, he relies so much on, does give up at times simply cause he asks too much from it? It's not like a unlucky injury....how many slams has Nadal missed since he became pro? how many were he had to give up, or said he had troubles? The list is long!

by N2D2L Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:35 pm

Would you have preferred he had retired at that moment then?

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