Re: ATP Masters 1000: Cincinnati

by Tenez Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:28 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Fed: "it's the type of game I don't see very often…"

How many times did I say that was Nadal's main advantage...which Djoko and Murray haven't, as the ball they send over the net is very similar to all other players.....unlike Nadal's.

Truffin....Nadal is a bad match up for Fed indeed but really a bad match up for everybody when he has that kind of energy.

When the energy is not there....he can be a good match up for injured Darcis even.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:36 pm

Both Nadal and Darcis were injured in that match, Nadal was limping which was clear and even you noted it Tenez.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XIi1rPNh70

by Tenez Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:40 pm

Yes I thought he was...but clearly that was acting. As Toni said he was not prepared. And we have been following Nadal for 8 years now....we know what the difference his form makes, more precisely how vulnearable he is when he cannot put his usual RPM into the ball.

It's all about RPM with Nadal...he has the energy to or he hasn't.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:45 pm

He was still clearly putting a lot of topspin on the ball against Darcis, just watch the highlights at the RPM-machine is still in full force!
The problem was he was limping- why on earth would he put on a 'Oh look, watch me limp everytime I move forward or to the left!' act (moving to the right was generally ok as he could push off the left knee ok, the right one was the problem)

The topspin was there, please.

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:25 pm

On the Fedal match:
Guys, i have to say i disagree with a lot of your conclusions. Fed still lost like expected. He may have been close in the rallies but that's still far from actually beating Nadal. Federer was not a break up in the second or the third set and didn't even had a bp in those sets. That means he was the one under pressure and not Nadal. The fact that Federer lost to NAdal in Cinci (without getting really close) tells me he's miles away from his personal best, nothing else.

But most of all i very much agree with Rotla: to claim that federer should be proud after a loss is a joke. That kind of compassion gives me a bad taste. This is Federer FCOL, he's not pathetic!

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:27 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:He was still clearly putting a lot of topspin on the ball against Darcis, just watch the highlights at the RPM-machine is still in full force!
The problem was he was limping- why on earth would he put on a 'Oh look, watch me limp everytime I move forward or to the left!' act (moving to the right was generally ok as he could push off the left knee ok, the right one was the problem)

The topspin was there, please.

Nadal's bag is full of tricks, Amri...there's the " bump" (Rosol intimidation tactics), the "limp" as shown against Darcis, times have changed after the 25 sec rule was reintroduced, so it can't be the boring old knees all the time any more, not even the fat in them...didn't you notice it's always something different now, his PR team is having to keep up with Nadal's left bicep with producing more and more imaginative spin to all these mysterious early Wimbledon exits...
But anyway, hopefully it will all come out in the wash one day...may not be next year, but it will...not the end of the world, of course, just a shame for the other players who are suffering the consequences of Nadal's cutting edge fitness regime.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:29 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:He was still clearly putting a lot of topspin on the ball against Darcis, just watch the highlights at the RPM-machine is still in full force!
The problem was he was limping- why on earth would he put on a 'Oh look, watch me limp everytime I move forward or to the left!' act (moving to the right was generally ok as he could push off the left knee ok, the right one was the problem)

The topspin was there, please.
Nadal's bag is full of tricks,

Whatever, why are you and Tenez always talking about the matches Nadal has lost.
He won yesterday, yet you keep on going on about matches where he lost, let me start you off... Rosol, Soderling, Djokovic, Dodig etc. etc. blahblahblah

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:31 pm

gallery play wrote:On the Fedal match:
Guys, i have to say i disagree with a lot of your conclusions. Fed still lost like expected. He may have been close in the rallies but that's still far from actually beating Nadal. Federer was not a break up in the second or the third set and didn't even had a bp in those sets. That means he was the one under pressure and not Nadal. The fact that Federer lost to NAdal in Cinci (without getting really close) tells me he's miles away from his personal best, nothing else.

But most of all i very much agree with Rotla: to claim that federer should be proud after a loss is a joke. That kind of compassion gives me a bad tast. This is Federer FCOL, he's not pathetic!

He won the first set 7-5 and was 0-30 on Nadal's serve at 3-3 IIRC- so he was pretty close actually.
He should be proud not because of the result- but because he played so well given his recent form.

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:35 pm

gallery play wrote:On the Fedal match:
Guys, i have to say i disagree with a lot of your conclusions. Fed still lost like expected. He may have been close in the rallies but that's still far from actually beating Nadal. Federer was not a break up in the second or the third set and didn't even had a bp in those sets. That means he was the one under pressure and not Nadal. The fact that Federer lost to NAdal in Cinci (without getting really close) tells me he's miles away from his personal best, nothing else.

But most of all i very much agree with Rotla: to claim that federer should be proud after a loss is a joke. That kind of compassion gives me a bad tast. This is Federer FCOL, he's not pathetic!

I disagree, too, to me, he was very close and it came down to a few points and few balls being out by a cm.
What exact aspect of his game worried you from last night?

Federer himself said he should've won and he could have played better.

That was the best I saw Fed play in a long time, he was better than against Nole at the WTF last November.
He really played with purpose, and looked like a wounded lion only a few weeks ago.

I thought it was all. Quite promising.
Hopefully the draw will be kind to him in USO.

by luvsports! Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:37 pm

Was Miami fast then?

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:50 pm

luvsports! wrote:Was Miami fast then?

In 2004? Yep.

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:52 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
gallery play wrote:On the Fedal match:
Guys, i have to say i disagree with a lot of your conclusions. Fed still lost like expected. He may have been close in the rallies but that's still far from actually beating Nadal. Federer was not a break up in the second or the third set and didn't even had a bp in those sets. That means he was the one under pressure and not Nadal. The fact that Federer lost to NAdal in Cinci (without getting really close) tells me he's miles away from his personal best, nothing else.

But most of all i very much agree with Rotla: to claim that federer should be proud after a loss is a joke. That kind of compassion gives me a bad tast. This is Federer FCOL, he's not pathetic!
I disagree, too, to me, he was very close and it came down to a few points and few balls being out by a cm.
What exact aspect of his game worried you from last night?

Let's say the Federer of Cinci last year would have played against Nadal, it would have been a 'indoor Fedal' affair. The results don't lie, that's a fact.
To be honest, to me it seems you are getting used to his 'new' level. Sure he still plays great shots but overall it's far from as compelling as it was in his hay days, with the loss of speed, mobility, flexibiliy as the main reasons for it.

by Tenez Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:52 pm

I agree that Nadal was probably the one putting pressure all the time but it's still was a relatively close match. And the main point is that Fede was moving ok and playing ok. Considering he has had hardly any training, any practice, any confidence in his game or even his old racquet, he did well.

If he can have a few weeks like that without back issues, I can't see why his game would not improve from yesterday.

This is the main point...and main question actually.

by summerblues Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:58 pm

gallery play wrote:Guys, i have to say i disagree with a lot of your conclusions. Fed still lost like expected.

I think it depends on what you are looking for from Fed. If you want him to turn back the clock, then that is not happening. But he played far better than what one could have expected based on his 2013 performances to-date. I think he played well enough so that - if he can maintain similar form - he will still have a chance in a slam. He will no longer be able sweep all before him and will need a good draw, but will have a chance. Which is certainly far better than Federer of Roland Garros through Gstaad would do.

by Tenez Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:59 pm

gallery play wrote:Let's say the Federer of Cinci last year would have played against Nadal, it would have been a 'indoor Fedal' affair. The results don't lie, that's a fact.
To be honest, to me it seems you are getting used to his 'new' level. Sure he still plays great shots but overall it's far from as compelling as it was in his hay days, with the loss of speed, mobility, flexibiliy as the main reasons for it.

In his hey days he was sometimes crushed more convincingly than that by Nadal. And the then Nadal was not nearly as good as the current one.

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:05 pm

Tenez wrote:I agree that Nadal was probably the one putting pressure all the time but it's still was a relatively close match. And the main point is that Fede was moving ok and playing ok. Considering he has had hardly any training, any practice, any confidence in his game or even his old racquet, he did well.

If he can have a few weeks like that without back issues, I can't see why his game would not improve from yesterday.

This is the main point...and main question actually.

It would be great if it would improve, 5% improvement and he could win again. But 5% is a lot and we've been waiting for a year now..
There's not a single indication he could play long matches at a constant high level again. Mind you: i have no problem to accept it

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:06 pm

To me, with Fed being back in business and a hungry Nadal, Nole and Murray being off-confidence/form, Delpo, Berdych and maybe JJ providing decent banana skins, this USO looks quite an open affair.

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:09 pm

Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:Let's say the Federer of Cinci last year would have played against Nadal, it would have been a 'indoor Fedal' affair. The results don't lie, that's a fact.
To be honest, to me it seems you are getting used to his 'new' level. Sure he still plays great shots but overall it's far from as compelling as it was in his hay days, with the loss of speed, mobility, flexibiliy as the main reasons for it.
In his hey days he was sometimes crushed more convincingly than that by Nadal. And the then Nadal was not nearly as good as the current one.

Not sure that's a valid comparison..
You know they never played in Cinci and you know about his record on fast courts against Nadal. NAdal never crushed Fed on a fast court, on the contrary, he never won on a fast court.

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:10 pm

gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:I agree that Nadal was probably the one putting pressure all the time but it's still was a relatively close match. And the main point is that Fede was moving ok and playing ok. Considering he has had hardly any training, any practice, any confidence in his game or even his old racquet, he did well.

If he can have a few weeks like that without back issues, I can't see why his game would not improve from yesterday.

This is the main point...and main question actually.
It would be great if it would improve, 5% improvement and he could win again. But 5% is a lot and we've been waiting for a year now..
There's not a single indication he could play long matches at a constant high level again. Mind you: i have no problem to accept it

That's a valid point, but then again, he could not really work properly on his fitness with having to balance an injured back at the same time for a long time this year. It all takes time.
I can only hope that his hard work on the core is beginning to pay off and that he can now get properly fit to last 5 sets without too much oscilation.

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:16 pm

noleisthebest wrote:To me, with Fed being back in business and a hungry Nadal, Nole and Murray being off-confidence/form, Delpo, Berdych and maybe JJ providing decent banana skins, this USO looks quite an open affair.

Lifting the USO trophy would mean "back in business" to me, not a won set against Nadal.

Look, i admire your optimism but i can't share it.

by Tenez Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:22 pm

gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:Let's say the Federer of Cinci last year would have played against Nadal, it would have been a 'indoor Fedal' affair. The results don't lie, that's a fact.
To be honest, to me it seems you are getting used to his 'new' level. Sure he still plays great shots but overall it's far from as compelling as it was in his hay days, with the loss of speed, mobility, flexibiliy as the main reasons for it.
In his hey days he was sometimes crushed more convincingly than that by Nadal. And the then Nadal was not nearly as good as the current one.
Not sure that's a valid comparison..
You know they never played in Cinci and you know about his record on fast courts against Nadal. NAdal never crushed Fed on a fast court, on the contrary, he never won on a fast court.

Dubai 2006? but I dont think pace of court matter much nowadays The spin of the ball make them all relatively slow...and I think Nadal plays much better now than then, especially on faster courts.

I was surprised, in the short clip I saw, how many balls Fed brought back actually. HIs mouvement was not too bad.

The question again is how many matches can he string without having a back problem. That he can play a match like yesterday without having a proper training and confidence is quite an amazing achievement in itself....and I guess that is why he was happy. He knows he can play better with more practice...and more so with a larger frame!

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:23 pm

gallery play wrote: NAdal never crushed Fed on a fast court, on the contrary, he never won on a fast court.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:23 pm

Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:
gallery play wrote:Let's say the Federer of Cinci last year would have played against Nadal, it would have been a 'indoor Fedal' affair. The results don't lie, that's a fact.
To be honest, to me it seems you are getting used to his 'new' level. Sure he still plays great shots but overall it's far from as compelling as it was in his hay days, with the loss of speed, mobility, flexibiliy as the main reasons for it.
In his hey days he was sometimes crushed more convincingly than that by Nadal. And the then Nadal was not nearly as good as the current one.
Not sure that's a valid comparison..
You know they never played in Cinci and you know about his record on fast courts against Nadal. NAdal never crushed Fed on a fast court, on the contrary, he never won on a fast court.
Dubai 2006?

Oh Tenez you're fast turning into my favourite poster Hug

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:26 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
gallery play wrote:
Tenez wrote:I agree that Nadal was probably the one putting pressure all the time but it's still was a relatively close match. And the main point is that Fede was moving ok and playing ok. Considering he has had hardly any training, any practice, any confidence in his game or even his old racquet, he did well.

If he can have a few weeks like that without back issues, I can't see why his game would not improve from yesterday.

This is the main point...and main question actually.
It would be great if it would improve, 5% improvement and he could win again. But 5% is a lot and we've been waiting for a year now..
There's not a single indication he could play long matches at a constant high level again. Mind you: i have no problem to accept it
That's a valid point, but then again, he could not really work properly on his fitness with having to balance an injured back at the same time for a long time this year. It all takes time.
I can only hope that his hard work on the core is beginning to pay off and that he can now get properly fit to last 5 sets without too much oscilation.

Sure, but like i said before, that's not what i'm arguing about. I only share my view on the process of his game.

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:33 pm

Dubai 2006 wasn't a typical fast court.

Ok, back to live tennis: it seems Delpo is flirting with a retirement

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:33 pm

One set all in Isner Delpo match, both tie-breaks...
Did anyone see Berd Murray match yesterday?

Did Berd win it or did Murray lose it?

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:34 pm

Berd was very solid yesterday. Kept the pressure on Murray

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:37 pm

gallery play wrote:Berd was very solid yesterday. Kept the pressure on Murray

I am surprised Murray wasn't able to destabilise Berd's serve with his returning.
That's why Nole has 13:2 H2H against him.

Do you think he has a chance against Nadal at all?

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:42 pm

Gamewise: yes, but headwise: no

Yesterday he hit so many shots that would hurt Nadal too.. but you know Berd, his balls shrink against Nadal

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:45 pm

Yes, Berd and his head; he has come a long way since his early days, though.
With him there is only plan A, that's even a bigger problem than his head, and that's where his head problem probably comes from.

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:49 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Yes, Berd and his head; he has come a long way since his early days, though.
With him there is only plan A, that's even a bigger problem than his head, and that's where his head problem probably comes from.

At least he beat up Nadal in his early days, and while doing so he suggested the mad spanish audience to shut up . Those were the days Winking

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:52 pm

gallery play wrote:Dubai 2006 wasn't a typical fast court.

Yes it's a fast court, but not a typical one as Nadal beat Federer on it.

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:58 pm

There's no "it's a fast court", because it has changed in Dubai a few times over the years. In 2006 it was medium paced court at most

by truffin1 Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:01 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:Truffin, on outdoor hard even when it's a fast surface Nadal still tends to do well against Fed... Miami 2004, Dubai 2006, Miami 2005 (ok he lost that but played really well and was 2 sets up at one point.)

He will always do well against Federer because of the style matchup advantages.. we all know that--- when Nadal was a pup and being regularly beaten off of clay by the same players Federer was dominating- yet could come into Miami 2004 and beat Federer- that's a matchup issue.

Hence, Nadal was consistently unable to make it through the field on fast courts like Cinci and US Open to meet Federer (where he prob would have given Federer the usual fits).. We only have to look at where and how often they met during their carreer to see this...

btw- it's not so much fast courts (we all tend to use that term too broadly) that can give Nadal problems or give Federer a rare advantage against him- the advantage lies in lower bounce surfaces which more often are found on the faster courts........ Federer has dominated Nadal at the WTF and that is not a "fast court" as is often described... It's a medium court that has a low bounce... the bounce is what deflates Nadals spin that kicks up and keeps the ball in a more reasonable striking zone.....

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:09 pm

Yes, but low bounces and fast courts are linked. The energy gets converted in speed or bounce.
London is a bit odd because it's quite slow but has a low bounce, mainly because of the wooden layer under the court.

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:13 pm

Isner now the first finalist after beating Delpo in 3 sets.

Berd - Nadal time.
Apparently, Berd has not dropped a set in Cincy yet.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:14 pm

gallery play wrote:There's no "it's a fast court", because it has changed in Dubai a few times over the years. In 2006 it was medium paced court at most

Absolute nonsense- I remember the commentators at the time talking about how it was faster than recent years that year.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:18 pm

truffin1 wrote:It's a medium court that has a low bounce... the bounce is what deflates Nadals spin that kicks up and keeps the ball in a more reasonable striking zone.....

Yes, I've always had the opinion that bounce is more important than speed, especially for the CC FH from Rafa into Fed's BH- so I agree with you there.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:20 pm

Socal1976 is an absolute legend of the highest order.
#justsayin

by gallery play Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:20 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
gallery play wrote:There's no "it's a fast court", because it has changed in Dubai a few times over the years. In 2006 it was medium paced court at most
Absolute nonsense- I remember the commentators at the time talking about how it was faster than recent years that year.

Really?!? Then you must be right..

Doh

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:21 pm

gallery play wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
gallery play wrote:There's no "it's a fast court", because it has changed in Dubai a few times over the years. In 2006 it was medium paced court at most
Absolute nonsense- I remember the commentators at the time talking about how it was faster than recent years that year.
Then you must be right..

Yes, yes I am.

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:29 pm

Amri,
talking of commentators,
do you know that Tenez gave an excellent interview as a grass court expert to Sky Sport during Wimbledon this year?
He talked about the state of grass and a few other things.
He was brilliant!

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:35 pm

noleisthebest wrote:Amri,
talking of commentators,
do you know that Tenez gave an excellent interview as a grass court expert to Sky Sport during Wimbledon this year?
He talked about the state of grass and a few other things.
He was brilliant!

I didn't see it, but would like to, do you have a link?

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:38 pm

Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Amri,
talking of commentators,
do you know that Tenez gave an excellent interview as a grass court expert to Sky Sport during Wimbledon this year?
He talked about the state of grass and a few other things.
He was brilliant!
I didn't see it, but would like to, do you have a link?

No, I don't, but if you want more details, look at the Ask Tenez thread.

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:42 pm

Berd holding on fine so far, Nadal's plan as blatant as ever....

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:05 pm

noleisthebest wrote:
Julia Santamaria wrote:
noleisthebest wrote:Amri,
talking of commentators,
do you know that Tenez gave an excellent interview as a grass court expert to Sky Sport during Wimbledon this year?
He talked about the state of grass and a few other things.
He was brilliant!
I didn't see it, but would like to, do you have a link?
No, I don't, but if you want more details, look at the Ask Tenez thread.

Cheers, I'll check it out.

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:12 pm

Nice performance so far by Rafa, Berdych has been good though.

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:15 pm

It never fails to fascinate me how Berd almost always manages to somehow implode!
Now he gets broken because he was upset with Nadal baing allowed too much time for chalenge (on Berd's 1st serve), and it turns out that the same umpire denied him serving underhand last week in Montreal Yikes

by N2D2L Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:17 pm

Winner Count in first set, this one is for Tenez:

Nadal 18-9 Berdych

by noleisthebest Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:23 pm

9/10 Nadal's winners are "a blindfolded player couldn't miss" sitters.

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