The doping program joke of the ITF!!!

Nadal, with the gamestyle he plays, will get knee injuries throughout his career.
It is inevitable.
Most predicted his knees will finish him at 23.

Amritia3ee wrote:Nadal, with the gamestyle he plays, will get knee injuries throughout his career.
It is inevitable.
Most predicted his knees will finish him at 23.

Ferrer plays a relatively similar style, is older and seems to be fine.

NITB, you did not reply, do you think Djokovic is doping?
Tenez said he would 'strongly suspect' this was the case- what do you think?

Amritia3ee wrote:Nadal, with the gamestyle he plays, will get knee injuries throughout his career.
It is inevitable.
Most predicted his knees will finish him at 23.

His game style is also very likely to benefit from PED though.

noleisthebest wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:Nadal, with the gamestyle he plays, will get knee injuries throughout his career.
It is inevitable.
Most predicted his knees will finish him at 23.

Ferrer plays a relatively similar style, is older and seems to be fine.

Ferrer and Nadal play quite differently NITB.

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:Nadal, with the gamestyle he plays, will get knee injuries throughout his career.
It is inevitable.
Most predicted his knees will finish him at 23.

His game style is also very likely to benefit from PED though.

Well I'm guessing it would enhance his performance (hence they are called performance enhancing drugs).

Tenez wrote:Correct and a few of us consider ourselves belonging to As and Bs while clearly some unsure logic makes you a typical C.

The Tribe of A and B.

Unsure logic is much better than paranoia and fear. I do not need a seal of any tribal approval including this forum.

Tenez wrote:

Amritia3ee wrote:Nadal, with the gamestyle he plays, will get knee injuries throughout his career.
It is inevitable.
Most predicted his knees will finish him at 23.

His game style is also very likely to benefit from PED though.

... as well as the player across the net who mimics the same style and plays matches lasting ~10 hours.

If ITF/WADA cannot catch Nadal, neither can they catch Djokovic, Murray, Federer, ... (by the unsure logic of C ).

@ Laverfan
If there is no evidence to contrary image doctoring then why are you so keen on trying to prove that that picture is photoshopped.Surely if it was photoshopped there would be evidence of it.I have photoshop,Im not good at using it but I can tell if a picture has been air brushed or altered
But for the sake of the argument,if you think one picture could be photoshopped why isnt it making you suspicious of every picture out there? If one picture could be photoshopped then surely the possibility that many more are photoshopped but yet youre ok with using one picture to support your argument (??)
Thing is I am glad you used that picture cause its completely consistent with what I have been trying to say all along.In 09 I believe Nadal cycled up to win AO which meant his summer season would be a total disaster as he would have to cycle down during the spring ( when he does his basic preparation for the summer) and then perhaps try to cycle up during the summer slams,it wouldnt work properly cause the break between cycled wouldnt have been long enough plus he ran the very high risk of getting caught.
Surprise surprise,there he loses at RG,doesnt play Queens or Wimbledon return to tour in Canada but fails to make much of an impact for the rest of the season
This indicates that he would have cycled down from RG all the way to the WTF,through the off season and up to the AO where he conveniently had another joint injury which gave him a reason for PRP treatments without a TUE
This would have meant that he had cycled down for near on a year.That would explain the muscle loss while cycling down nand it would also explain why his improvement when he cycled up during the spring of 2010 is was almost as fantastical as his 08 season cause the break between cycles was much longer then usual,also resulting in him
bulking up. a lot more,or there being a clear difference in his weight It could also be that he was using a new drug in 2010,which I think could possibly be true cause Nadal has never been able to make the finals of 3 straight majors before,he was usng something that was allowing him to cycle up for 3 straight months and not get caught
But the main point here is that he had been off the drugs for almost a year form the 09 summer till the 2010 spring which is why the drugs were so much more effective whn he cycled up in 2010 and explains muscle atrophy towards the end of 09
So as you can see the picture you used makes complete sense,that he could be so skinny at the 2010 AO but then later that summer be bigger then we have ever seen him

As for when he comes back on tour,it really would depend on whether winning AO is on the top of his priorities or whether he wants to make a impact during the summer,,as I pointed out above if he choses to try to dominate the AO,then that would most likely rule out the summer and vice versa.We saw a similar pattern to 09 this season,made it deep into the AO,but suffered an unexpected early loss at one of the summer majors which resulted in him being out on injury again

The suspicions on THASP is just opinion,naturally people are going to disagree,they are plausible explanations,not 100% fact.We are all just trying to add things up with the information documented there,no one is going around saying thats the only possible explanation,but you cant expect people not to form their own opinions and conclusions about the information documented there,thats only natural,just like you thinking that photograph was photoshopped

If Nadal was using the gym at home why doesnt he develop a physique like that while he is training? But the biggest question is how is he developing a physique like that with little weight training while doing that much cardio?
It would take no less then 5-6 days a week of serious weight training,an incredibly high protein diet to bulk up and even then it would be no where near that perfect without the use of steroids,but yet Nadal is developing a physique like that while running virtual marathons and little to no weight training

Of course if Nadal continued weight training he wouldnt lose his muscle tone but he is losing his muscle tone not due to cardio,its clearly because he is deflating while cycling down.If lest say he is working out in the gym,why is there still muscle atrophy?

As for Ferrer,I know several people who are suspicious of him,after all he is a part of the Spanish Federation
The only reason I think people are over looking him is because he isnt winning majors but a few here know I have raised my personal suspicion of him on the forum before

As for Murray,yes it was a while ago,in my opinion there are no clear signs of steroid use in recent seasons but that doesnt rule out the possibility of EPO or any banned PED being used.When other PED's are used it becomes a lot harder to be certain which drug he is using,especially when it comes to the various strains of EPO
I wont accuse him of using PED's if Im not 100% certain,I will voice my suspicion but will only accuse him like when I was certain he was using Nandrolone

Veejay wrote:As for Murray,yes it was a while ago,in my opinion there are no clear signs of steroid use in recent seasons but that doesnt rule out the possibility of EPO or any banned PED being used.When other PED's are used it becomes a lot harder to be certain which drug he is using,especially when it comes to the various strains of EPO
I wont accuse him of using PED's if Im not 100% certain,I will voice my suspicion but will only accuse him like when I was certain he was using Nandrolone

I could not be certain of anything. Even less the kind of drugs they would be using. I am not even sure they are using illegal stuff but what I am pretty sure is that it's physically enhancing.

Armstrong's former Discovery Channel team-mate Roger Hammond believes the penalties are too lenient.

"I can't understand why these riders are only being given a six-month winter ban," said retired Brit Hammond, who rode with Armstrong in 2005.

"Usada talk about creating a legacy, and the whole point of this investigation was to create a legacy for the sport. What sort of legacy is being created now?

"To me it says if you cheat and lie about it for several years, and then drop somebody else in it, you'll be alright. They need to be given the same ban as Lance.

"They cheated, they took that risk."
===============================
This guy has a point!

Tenez wrote:

Veejay wrote:As for Murray,yes it was a while ago,in my opinion there are no clear signs of steroid use in recent seasons but that doesnt rule out the possibility of EPO or any banned PED being used.When other PED's are used it becomes a lot harder to be certain which drug he is using,especially when it comes to the various strains of EPO
I wont accuse him of using PED's if Im not 100% certain,I will voice my suspicion but will only accuse him like when I was certain he was using Nandrolone

I could not be certain of anything. Even less the kind of drugs they would be using. I am not even sure they are using illegal stuff but what I am pretty sure is that it's physically enhancing.

Precisely my point Tenez

The system is probably so corrupt that a TUE could possibly legalise any PED.

Veejay wrote:If there is no evidence to contrary image doctoring then why are you so keen on trying to prove that that picture is photoshopped.Surely if it was photoshopped there would be evidence of it.I have photoshop,Im not good at using it but I can tell if a picture has been air brushed or altered
But for the sake of the argument,if you think one picture could be photoshopped why isnt it making you suspicious of every picture out there? If one picture could be photoshopped then surely the possibility that many more are photoshopped but yet youre ok with using one picture to support your argument (??)
Thing is I am glad you used that picture cause its completely consistent with what I have been trying to say all along.

I do not trust any single picture, photoshopped or not, from THASP or not. My links were to show you the fallacy of trusting still images (including the 'ripped' one that you used. TV pictures are another matter altogether.

Veejay wrote:In 09 I believe Nadal cycled up to win AO which meant his summer season would be a total disaster as he would have to cycle down during the spring ( when he does his basic preparation for the summer) and then perhaps try to cycle up during the summer slams,it wouldnt work properly cause the break between cycled wouldnt have been long enough plus he ran the very high risk of getting caught. Surprise surprise,there he loses at RG,doesnt play Queens or Wimbledon return to tour in Canada but fails to make much of an impact for the rest of the season

You are getting the time lines confused. He lost Rotterdam 2009 final to Murray the last set being 6-0 and he was hobbling then, correct?

Also, why does not the same time line apply to 2010 (W/L 71-10, 81 matches) or 2008 (82-11 W/L, 93 matches), just because he lost to Murray at AO 2010. 2009 was 66-14 (80 matches). Notice 2010 and 2008 is different by just one match. In 2009 he won IW but lost to Del Potro in Miami. He has consistently played 80+ matches across 2008, 2009 and 2010 despite the cycling hypothesis. You may also want to check where the other Top 4 were during the break between W 2009 and Canada 2009.

Veejay wrote:This indicates that he would have cycled down from RG all the way to the WTF,through the off season and up to the AO where he conveniently had another joint injury which gave him a reason for PRP treatments without a TUE
This would have meant that he had cycled down for near on a year.That would explain the muscle loss while cycling down nand it would also explain why his improvement when he cycled up during the spring of 2010 is was almost as fantastical as his 08 season cause the break between cycles was much longer then usual,also resulting in him bulking up. a lot more,or there being a clear difference in his weight It could also be that he was using a new drug in 2010,which I think could possibly be true cause Nadal has never been able to make the finals of 3 straight majors before,he was usng something that was allowing him to cycle up for 3 straight months and not get caught

You and I have agreed that bulking up is detrimental to speed. If he 'bulked up' in 2010, after the 2009 'loss' (which conveniently ignored the 2009 USO injury reports, the famous Del Potro beating of 6-2 x 3), the results should have been worse than 2009 or 2008, not better when he did in 2010.

What is the 'something' that he was using that you are not aware of?

Veejay wrote:But the main point here is that he had been off the drugs for almost a year form the 09 summer till the 2010 spring which is why the drugs were so much more effective whn he cycled up in 2010 and explains muscle atrophy towards the end of 09
So as you can see the picture you used makes complete sense,that he could be so skinny at the 2010 AO but then later that summer be bigger then we have ever seen him

The intent behind the pictures was to illustrate the changes the person posting images can make.

Veejay wrote:As for when he comes back on tour,it really would depend on whether winning AO is on the top of his priorities or whether he wants to make a impact during the summer,,as I pointed out above if he choses to try to dominate the AO,then that would most likely rule out the summer and vice versa.We saw a similar pattern to 09 this season,made it deep into the AO,but suffered an unexpected early loss at one of the summer majors which resulted in him being out on injury again

There are other players who do not do well during the Clay season either, are you implying the reverse for them from a cycling up-down perspective.

Veejay wrote:The suspicions on THASP is just opinion,naturally people are going to disagree,they are plausible explanations,not 100% fact.We are all just trying to add things up with the information documented there,no one is going around saying thats the only possible explanation,but you cant expect people not to form their own opinions and conclusions about the information documented there,thats only natural,just like you thinking that photograph was photoshopped

The number of 'anonymous' postings does not lend credibility to a conspiracy website, does it?

Veejay wrote:If Nadal was using the gym at home why doesnt he develop a physique like that while he is training? But the biggest question is how is he developing a physique like that with little weight training while doing that much cardio?

Unless there is a publicly documented training regimen, I am loathe to speculate.

Veejay wrote:It would take no less then 5-6 days a week of serious weight training,an incredibly high protein diet to bulk up and even then it would be no where near that perfect without the use of steroids,but yet Nadal is developing a physique like that while running virtual marathons and little to no weight training

Of course if Nadal continued weight training he wouldnt lose his muscle tone but he is losing his muscle tone not due to cardio,its clearly because he is deflating while cycling down.If lest say he is working out in the gym,why is there still muscle atrophy?

The less injuries, the more training, the less muscle atrophy. It seems a very simple formula, would you not agree? I would also suggest looking at what 5K calorie diets vs 2500 calorie diets do to muscles. They are usually the first ones to disappear.

Veejay wrote:As for Ferrer,I know several people who are suspicious of him,after all he is a part of the Spanish Federation
The only reason I think people are over looking him is because he isnt winning majors but a few here know I have raised my personal suspicion of him on the forum before

This is what I consider generalisations border almost on racism. Someone on this forum made a comment regarding Lopez winning on talent, but Ferrer, with his physical limitations who has never been to a slam final has slipped under the radar.

Veejay wrote:As for Murray,yes it was a while ago,in my opinion there are no clear signs of steroid use in recent seasons but that doesnt rule out the possibility of EPO or any banned PED being used.When other PED's are used it becomes a lot harder to be certain which drug he is using,especially when it comes to the various strains of EPO
I wont accuse him of using PED's if Im not 100% certain,I will voice my suspicion but will only accuse him like when I was certain he was using Nandrolone

If a set of drugs are banned, I am certain the corresponding detection methods are also implemented by WADA, otherwise it would be foolish to try and catch a player. I would suggest looking at Murray as an example now. Also realise, he has Lendl, who was maniacal about physical aspects of tennis training.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:An interesting read on existence of silent bans or suspensions.

http://www.tennisnow.com/News/Doping,-Tennis,-Nadal-Connection.aspx

It is very ambiguous in my view. Provisional suspensions are not what I call silent.

Look at the Kendrick case. He was banned for a year and it took effect in June 17th and was not released to the public until June 29th. We are talking 12 days. He tested positive on 22nd May and still played up until June 12th. So technically he wasn't banned. The Korda one holds no substance either as he was still playing beyond Wimbledon when tested positive!

Good research, but the guy who wrote it, absolutely clueless.

@Laverfan...
Stop dancing around what the point of this debate was all about,it was never about Murray,Ferrer,photoshopped images etc
I merely asked if anyone can give me a plausible explanation how an athlete can develop such a physique by doing little to no weight training while doing that much cardio
Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth horses
Can you answer those questions for me?
And please do not come back and answer me by asking more questions! ( or I will just ignore you)
If you can I will indulge you in the rest of that response,but for now Im not in the mood to keep going around in pointless circles that makes no sense whatsoever

But it says clearly that the ITF is authorised not to release a positive test until the defendant proves he is innocent. A positive test I am pretty sure prevents them from playing the next competition.

Anyway Millers and her explain that it is possible though the term silent ban is not admitted by Millers it's in effect teh same thing.

Tenez wrote:But it says clearly that the ITF is authorised not to release a positive test until the defendant proves he is innocent. A positive test I am pretty sure prevents them from playing the next competition.

Anyway Millers and her explain that it is possible though the term silent ban is not admitted by Millers it's in effect teh same thing.

Tenez both Kendrick and Korda were still playing tournaments after they had tested positive!! They were not banned until after the results were made public. I checked both players playing activity on the ATP. Korda played at the US Open despite testing positive during Wimbledon.

It is farce that when the players tested positive, they were still allowed to compete.

<BLOCKQUOTE>

Veejay wrote:If Nadal was using the gym at home why doesnt he develop a physique like that while he is training? But the biggest question is how is he developing a physique like that with little weight training while doing that much cardio?

</BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless there is a publicly documented training regimen, I am loathe to speculate.

I merely asked if anyone can give me a plausible explanation how an athlete can develop such a physique by doing little to no weight training while doing that much cardio

I feel LF made her point quite clear when asked on this point. She hasn't seen anything publicly that has stated either or neither Nadal partakes in weight training.

go on old man!

luvsports! wrote:go on old man!

wrong thread

Veejay wrote:I merely asked if anyone can give me a plausible explanation how an athlete can develop such a physique by doing little to no weight training while doing that much cardio

How do you know he is not doing weight training? Do you have access to a publicly available Nadal training program? LK also pointed out that I was unwilling to guess. You are willing to trust a public statement by Nadal which says he hates gym work, but yet you are unwilling to accept, at face value, when he says he does not use any illegal substances. This is selective sound-byte approach to a debate. This is not politics, is it?

Veejay wrote:Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth horses

I gave you a very simple explanation. Injuries preclude weight training. Hence injuries lead to lose of muscle mass. It is a very obvious explanation, is it not?

Veejay wrote:Can you answer those questions for me?

This is the second time I have answered these questions.

Veejay wrote:And please do not come back and answer me by asking more questions! ( or I will just ignore you)
If you can I will indulge you in the rest of that response,but for now Im not in the mood to keep going around in pointless circles that makes no sense whatsoever

Yet you are asking me questions as a response. .

If we cannot have a civilised debate, you are more than welcome to walk away. You are not doing me any favours by indulging.

legendkillar wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE>

Veejay wrote:If Nadal was using the gym at home why doesnt he develop a physique like that while he is training? But the biggest question is how is he developing a physique like that with little weight training while doing that much cardio?

</BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless there is a publicly documented training regimen, I am loathe to speculate.

I merely asked if anyone can give me a plausible explanation how an athlete can develop such a physique by doing little to no weight training while doing that much cardio

I feel LF made her point quite clear when asked on this point. She hasn't seen anything publicly that has stated either or neither Nadal partakes in weight training.

I never said Nadal partakes in weight training or not,I went by what he claimed,that he doesnt all his training on court and none on the gym,so I merely asked how is it possible for an athlete to develop such a physique without any weight training while doing that much cardio
How is it possible to maintain such a physique running virtual marathons but yet his muscles atrophy in the part of the season when he does the least amount of cardio,why isn't it happening during the part of the season when he is doing the most cardio?
Laverfan hasnt given me any plausible explanation apart from answering me by asking me more random questions and bringing other athletes names up.The debate was never about that or them
Why doesnt Laverfan just come out and say exactly what it is she/he is trying to imply by playing 20 questions,I dont have the time nor the patients to sit around and try to figure out what the hell she/he is constantly trying to say,by replying to my questions by asking more random questions
Just be straight up,come out and say exactly it is what youre trying to imply rather beat around the bush
The photograph I used as reference did NOT come from the THASP blog,you can google Nadal,click on images and scroll down...it will be there.There are plenty of other picture which proves his muscular frame
Further more I have yet to given a reason why that photograph is supposedly photoshopped,wheres the evidence to support that claim? Its easy for anyone to dismiss anything,but how can you expect me to believe it if you cannot even give me a reason why I should?
I used that picture as reference to prove that me and Mac didnt imagine seeing what we saw
If Laverfan loathes to speculate why speculate that a picture is photoshopped and why part take in this debate if you dont believe one way or the other,then what the hell are you debating,this is precisely the reason why is so frustrating debating with Laverfan

How can you say you havent publicly seen anything to support that a player has or hasnt used a gym? What a ridiculous comment to make,how on earth can someone develop a physique like that without weight training? Just looking at his physique should be enough evidence to prove that technically weight training did ( should have) taken place
The only possible explanation would be that Nadal either did weight training 5-6 times a week for at least 80 days while being on an extremely high protein diet,but even then without steroids he would never develop a physique near on perfection plus it would be extremely hard,near on impossible to maintain if youre doing that much cardio,however it is entirely plausible that he could develop a physique like that using steroids which contains growth hormones,while doing that much cardio and doing little to no weight training,if he is merely substituting it by doing push-ups,sits ups and other kinds of pilates and strengthening exercises on court.Point is without the drugs,it would be impossible
Am I really expected to believe that Nadal still has time to visit a gym at least 5 times a week during the period of the season when he is playing grand slams? Why would Nadal claim he does all he training on court if the opposite was true?Can you give me 1 logical reason why he would say that?

Toning machines perhaps?

The create the 'ripped' look, or so they claim.

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:I merely asked if anyone can give me a plausible explanation how an athlete can develop such a physique by doing little to no weight training while doing that much cardio

How do you know he is not doing weight training? Do you have access to a publicly available Nadal training program? LK also pointed out that I was unwilling to guess. You are willing to trust a public statement by Nadal which says he hates gym work, but yet you are unwilling to accept, at face value, when he says he does not use any illegal substances. This is selective sound-byte approach to a debate. This is not politics, is it?

Veejay wrote:Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth horses

I gave you a very simple explanation. Injuries preclude weight training. Hence injuries lead to lose of muscle mass. It is a very obvious explanation, is it not?

Veejay wrote:Can you answer those questions for me?

This is the second time I have answered these questions.

Veejay wrote:And please do not come back and answer me by asking more questions! ( or I will just ignore you)
If you can I will indulge you in the rest of that response,but for now Im not in the mood to keep going around in pointless circles that makes no sense whatsoever

Yet you are asking me questions as a response. .

If we cannot have a civilised debate, you are more than welcome to walk away. You are not doing me any favours by indulging.

LOL...answering my questions by asking more questions again...
You still havent answered my question Laverfan. Are you ever going to do that?
Can you give me a plausible explanation how a player could develop such a physique doing little to no weight training while doing that much cardio
All you once again did was answer me by asking me how we know he isnt doing weight training
That doesnt answer the question Laverfan
Forget about Nadal for a minute,just give me a plausible explanation how any athlete could develop a physique like that doing little to no weight training and then once you do that we can apply this to Nadal and take the discussion from there...
So please give me a plausible explanation as to how any athlete can develop a physique like that with little to no weight training
Dont come back and answer me by asking more questions just give me a straight up answer for the question
Thats all I'm asking

This :
"I gave you a very simple explanation. Injuries preclude weight training. Hence injuries lead to lose of muscle mass. It is a very obvious explanation, is it not?"

is NOT answering this:

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

If a player is running virtual marathons while playing it would suggest they arent injured
If Nadals muscles could catabolise while doing cardio why doesnt it during the part of the season he is doing the most cardio but yet the very opposite happens,he is developing a muscular physique during the part of the season he does the most cardio
In fact his muscles didnt even atrophy when he was injured like you claim it would,as I pointed out before which you completely over looked and ignored in 09 he was out on injury for Queens,Wimbledon and and the few weeks after Wimbledon,why didnt his muscles atrophy right then and there,why was it not till the end of the season that it did,i.e at the WTF..he wasnt injured then,he was certainly fit enough to compete,and if he was hypothetically weight training like you've hinted by asking me how we know he doesnt do weight training then that would never have happened
People think Nadal was out and injured for the whole of 09,that is not true,he only missed 2 tournaments Queens and Wimbledon so Im sorry but your excuse that it was because he was injured doesnt hold up for me,plus its not consistent if your explanation as to how he would develop a physique like that is because of weight training
That in itself is a contradiction,because you'd be implying that his muscles atrophy while he is doing weight training....thats impossible

I was the one who started this debate with Ameritia,I asked him some questions (not you) you chose to join the debate
Instead of answering the questions I asked him,you decided to try and answer them by asking me more questions
All I did was ask you to give me a straight plausible answer rather then answer me by asking me questions which doesnt answer anything
Once again you have done that
Try for once to give an answer without asking one,can you do that?

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

http://www.livestrong.com/article/435701-how-long-can-you-go-without-exercise-before-your-body-starts-to-lose-muscle/

Maybe this will answer the above question.

legendkillar wrote:

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

http://www.livestrong.com/article/435701-how-long-can-you-go-without-exercise-before-your-body-starts-to-lose-muscle/

Maybe this will answer the above question.

Yes. LA knows the answer.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

http://www.livestrong.com/article/435701-how-long-can-you-go-without-exercise-before-your-body-starts-to-lose-muscle/

Maybe this will answer the above question.

Yes. LA knows the answer.

But LA is a separate issue and different sport.

The article suggests between 2-6 weeks with no activity would see a decrease in muscle mass though in other cases 31 weeks.

The general consensus on bodybuilding websites is that muscle can be put back on in 3 weeks.

Bizarre timescales that I can't begin to get my head round.

legendkillar wrote:

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

http://www.livestrong.com/article/435701-how-long-can-you-go-without-exercise-before-your-body-starts-to-lose-muscle/

Maybe this will answer the above question.

From the link you posted:

"Competitive athletes detrain quicker than recreational athletes because of their higher overall fitness levels. Competitive athletes could experience muscle atrophy after as little as two weeks of inactivity."

Wouldnt Nadal have experienced muscle atrophy during the time he was injured? So why wasnt it till the end of the 09 season that his lost a significant amount of muscle tone?

But even then we arent talking about what happens when your inactive

The truth is Nadal lost weight while he was active
I dont think anyone really understands the main point here. Running is the best exercise to lose weight,its the best exercise to burn fat,if you have burned all the fat you possibly can and continue to do cardio that equals to running marathons your muscles will naturally start to catabolise.This is why marathon runners have very lean muscles and small frames
Tennis is very much an endurance sport,playing grand slams can be compared to running a marathon,you could easily cover the same distance running,which is why most tennis players have fairly long lean muscles,they dont have such a muscular frame
If Nadal could catabolise his muscles like he did at the end of 09 why did he do it during the part of the season when he is doing the most cardio,ie the summer slams,why did it only happen towards the end of the season when he is doing the least amount of cardio
My answer for that is because his muscles deflated due to cycling down,this is what happened when you use steroids which contains growth hormones,it wont deflate while he is on the drugs or if the drugs are still in his system working ,only start to deflate around 3 months after he stopped cycling down
If the possibility to lose weight was always there he would have lost weight when he is pushing his body to the max not the end of the season when he is doing significantly less cardio

Veejay wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

http://www.livestrong.com/article/435701-how-long-can-you-go-without-exercise-before-your-body-starts-to-lose-muscle/

Maybe this will answer the above question.

From the link you posted:

"Competitive athletes detrain quicker than recreational athletes because of their higher overall fitness levels. Competitive athletes could experience muscle atrophy after as little as two weeks of inactivity."

Wouldnt Nadal have experienced muscle atrophy during the time he was injured? So why wasnt it till the end of the 09 season that his lost a significant amount of muscle tone?

But even then we arent talking about what happens when your inactive

The truth is Nadal lost weight while he was active
I dont think anyone really understands the main point here. Running is the best exercise to lose weight,its the best exercise to burn fat,if you have burned all the fat you possibly can and continue to do cardio that equals to running marathons your muscles will naturally start to catabolise.This is why marathon runners have very lean muscles and small frames
Tennis is very much an endurance sport,playing grand slams can be compared to running a marathon,you could easily cover the same distance running,which is why most tennis players have fairly long lean muscles,they dont have such a muscular frame
If Nadal could catabolise his muscles like he did at the end of 09 why did he do it during the part of the season when he is doing the most cardio,ie the summer slams,why did it only happen towards the end of the season when he is doing the least amount of cardio
My answer for that is because his muscles deflated due to cycling down,this is what happened when you use steroids which contains growth hormones,it wont deflate while he is on the drugs,only start to deflate around 3 months after he stopped cycling down
If the possibility to lose weight was always there he would have lost weight when he is pushing his body to the max not the end of the season when he is doing significantly less cardio

The average distance a BO5 match can cover on average is 2.2 miles. The recent lung bursting AO both players covered 2.9 miles. A marathon is 26.3 miles. A big big difference and no comparison can be made of that at all. It's like comparing speed between an F1 car and a milk float.

Your asking why didn't Nadal do this do that? If I don't know, how on earth can you be expected to draw a conclusion which you believe should be the view which is widely accepted? I don't know what Nadal does on his time off or what he carries out in a recovery from injury.

It is pure speculation.

legendkillar wrote:But LA is a separate issue and different sport.

But we have all the same physiology. And what the LA story taught us is that super heros don't exist. Our muscles are very much the same as the monkeys which inhabited the earth 60 million years ago.

Tennis players all looked alike from 1880 to 2004 roughly...small variations but then suddenly...one comes along as if photoshoped by LF.

Tenez wrote: Our muscles are very much the same as the monkeys which inhabited the earth 60 million years ago.

One of these days you'll give me a heart-attack!

Veejay wrote:Can you give me a plausible explanation how a player could develop such a physique doing little to no weight training while doing that much cardio All you once again did was answer me by asking me how we know he isnt doing weight training
That doesnt answer the question Laverfan
Forget about Nadal for a minute,just give me a plausible explanation how any athlete could develop a physique like that doing little to no weight training and then once you do that we can apply this to Nadal and take the discussion from there...
So please give me a plausible explanation as to how any athlete can develop a physique like that with little to no weight training
Dont come back and answer me by asking more questions just give me a straight up answer for the question
Thats all I'm asking

This :
"I gave you a very simple explanation. Injuries preclude weight training. Hence injuries lead to lose of muscle mass. It is a very obvious explanation, is it not?"

is NOT answering this:

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

If a player is running virtual marathons while playing it would suggest they arent injured
If Nadals muscles could catabolise while doing cardio why doesnt it during the part of the season he is doing the most cardio but yet the very opposite happens,he is developing a muscular physique during the part of the season he does the most cardio
In fact his muscles didnt even atrophy when he was injured like you claim it would,as I pointed out before which you completely over looked and ignored in 09 he was out on injury for Queens,Wimbledon and and the few weeks after Wimbledon,why didnt his muscles atrophy right then and there,why was it not till the end of the season that it did,i.e at the WTF..he wasnt injured then,he was certainly fit enough to compete,and if he was hypothetically weight training like you've hinted by asking me how we know he doesnt do weight training then that would never have happened
People think Nadal was out and injured for the whole of 09,that is not true,he only missed 2 tournaments Queens and Wimbledon so Im sorry but your excuse that it was because he was injured doesnt hold up for me,plus its not consistent if your explanation as to how he would develop a physique like that is because of weight training
That in itself is a contradiction,because you'd be implying that his muscles atrophy while he is doing weight training....thats impossible

Muscle catabolization is dependent on other factors, not just training or lack thereof. Nutrition plays a role. Lack of proper nutrition can speed up muscle catabolization. Other factors like lack of sleep or lack of training (weight or cardio) also impact this process. You seem to focus on weight training and ignore other factors.

I still have not read this entire link, but hope to read it next week. http://josepharcita.blogspot.com/2011/03/guide-to-ketosis.html#33II

Veejay wrote:I was the one who started this debate with Ameritia,I asked him some questions (not you) you chose to join the debate
Instead of answering the questions I asked him,you decided to try and answer them by asking me more questions
All I did was ask you to give me a straight plausible answer rather then answer me by asking me questions which doesnt answer anything
Once again you have done that
Try for once to give an answer without asking one,can you do that?

No questions in this post, correct? (Is this a question, though? )

Tenez wrote:
Tennis players all looked alike from 1880 to 2004 roughly...small variations but then suddenly...one comes along as if photoshoped by LF.

Absolutely.
There is a reason Nadal's body is a ruin at 26. And that ain't just because he runs a lot.

legendkillar wrote:

Veejay wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

http://www.livestrong.com/article/435701-how-long-can-you-go-without-exercise-before-your-body-starts-to-lose-muscle/

Maybe this will answer the above question.

From the link you posted:

"Competitive athletes detrain quicker than recreational athletes because of their higher overall fitness levels. Competitive athletes could experience muscle atrophy after as little as two weeks of inactivity."

Wouldnt Nadal have experienced muscle atrophy during the time he was injured? So why wasnt it till the end of the 09 season that his lost a significant amount of muscle tone?

But even then we arent talking about what happens when your inactive

The truth is Nadal lost weight while he was active
I dont think anyone really understands the main point here. Running is the best exercise to lose weight,its the best exercise to burn fat,if you have burned all the fat you possibly can and continue to do cardio that equals to running marathons your muscles will naturally start to catabolise.This is why marathon runners have very lean muscles and small frames
Tennis is very much an endurance sport,playing grand slams can be compared to running a marathon,you could easily cover the same distance running,which is why most tennis players have fairly long lean muscles,they dont have such a muscular frame
If Nadal could catabolise his muscles like he did at the end of 09 why did he do it during the part of the season when he is doing the most cardio,ie the summer slams,why did it only happen towards the end of the season when he is doing the least amount of cardio
My answer for that is because his muscles deflated due to cycling down,this is what happened when you use steroids which contains growth hormones,it wont deflate while he is on the drugs,only start to deflate around 3 months after he stopped cycling down
If the possibility to lose weight was always there he would have lost weight when he is pushing his body to the max not the end of the season when he is doing significantly less cardio

The average distance a BO5 match can cover on average is 2.2 miles. The recent lung bursting AO both players covered 2.9 miles. A marathon is 26.3 miles. A big big difference and no comparison can be made of that at all. It's like comparing speed between an F1 car and a milk float.

Your asking why didn't Nadal do this do that? If I don't know, how on earth can you be expected to draw a conclusion which you believe should be the view which is widely accepted? I don't know what Nadal does on his time off or what he carries out in a recovery from injury.

It is pure speculation.

Ok so you multiply 2.2 miles by 7 matches you get 15.4..half a marathon if you wish,is that not long distance running?
You add that over a period of a summer...and what do you come to? Lets say you make the finals of RG and Wimbledon then youve run a marathon within a couple of weeks. How many miles will be covered from lets say playing March through to end of September if you play every tournament on tour and you make the semi finals or better? Then exclude that from the amount thats put in during practice and what players do to help increase their their stamina and endurance level
One of the only true ways ( legal) I can think of that helps with endurance and stamina and breathing is to do more cardio
Bottom line is youre doing a lot of cardio on a consistent basis when you're playing tennis,theres a lot of running being done sometimes more then the average match,sometimes less
If youre doing that much running on a daily basis and if youre that muscular you will start running your muscle tone away,that is a fact. So how is it possible to maintain such a muscular physique doing that much running,forget about even asking the same question of someone who isnt doing weight training.But lest say he is,what then explains muscle atrophy at the end of the 09 season if he wasnt out with injury and he was continuing with his weight training?
Why didn't nadal lose his muscle tone while he was injured,the link you posted says you can start losing it in 2 weeks.Laverfan says the same thing,are we now going to twist it around and say he is doing weight training while he is injured?
If you dont know thats fine but you decided to get involved in this discussion so what do you expect me to do,not ask you?

Veejay wrote:I dont think anyone really understands the main point here. Running is the best exercise to lose weight,its the best exercise to burn fat,if you have burned all the fat you possibly can and continue to do cardio that equals to running marathons your muscles will naturally start to catabolise.This is why marathon runners have very lean muscles and small frames

Where are you getting this virtual marathon notion from?

Here are some screen shots from the AO 2012 final. Notice the score on the screen. (No photoshopping has been on these. )

Distance for a point in the fifth set - https://imgur.com/qpvoo

Distance for the entire tournament - https://imgur.com/1mG2n

A marathon is ~26 miles.

Veejay wrote:Tennis is very much an endurance sport,playing grand slams can be compared to running a marathon,you could easily cover the same distance running,which is why most tennis players have fairly long lean muscles,they dont have such a muscular frame
If Nadal could catabolise his muscles like he did at the end of 09 why did he do it during the part of the season when he is doing the most cardio,ie the summer slams,why did it only happen towards the end of the season when he is doing the least amount of cardio
My answer for that is because his muscles deflated due to cycling down,this is what happened when you use steroids which contains growth hormones,it wont deflate while he is on the drugs or if the drugs are still in his system working ,only start to deflate around 3 months after he stopped cycling down
If the possibility to lose weight was always there he would have lost weight when he is pushing his body to the max not the end of the season when he is doing significantly less cardio

The corresponding nutritional intake is being ignored in this line of reasoning.

Whether we are discussing if the draws are rigged, there is doping in tennis, or it's Friday today, some will always choose to believe that people are getting better, faster, stronger etc.
And while those people exist and pay for the tickets to see records broken, people being faster and stronger, there will be draw fixing, doping and Fridays will still be happening on Fridays.

What is the difference between Rod Laver and Rafael Nadal?

The answer does not lie in the theory of evolution, that's for sure, it's in the good old Bible which says that the love of money is the root of all evil.

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:Can you give me a plausible explanation how a player could develop such a physique doing little to no weight training while doing that much cardio All you once again did was answer me by asking me how we know he isnt doing weight training
That doesnt answer the question Laverfan
Forget about Nadal for a minute,just give me a plausible explanation how any athlete could develop a physique like that doing little to no weight training and then once you do that we can apply this to Nadal and take the discussion from there...
So please give me a plausible explanation as to how any athlete can develop a physique like that with little to no weight training
Dont come back and answer me by asking more questions just give me a straight up answer for the question
Thats all I'm asking

This :
"I gave you a very simple explanation. Injuries preclude weight training. Hence injuries lead to lose of muscle mass. It is a very obvious explanation, is it not?"

is NOT answering this:

"Give me a plausible explanation why an athlete can maintain such a physique for several months while running virtual marathons,and that their muscles would not catabolise in the process but then suddenly would catabolise when what would normally happen with someone who uses steroids which contain growth hormones"

If a player is running virtual marathons while playing it would suggest they arent injured
If Nadals muscles could catabolise while doing cardio why doesnt it during the part of the season he is doing the most cardio but yet the very opposite happens,he is developing a muscular physique during the part of the season he does the most cardio
In fact his muscles didnt even atrophy when he was injured like you claim it would,as I pointed out before which you completely over looked and ignored in 09 he was out on injury for Queens,Wimbledon and and the few weeks after Wimbledon,why didnt his muscles atrophy right then and there,why was it not till the end of the season that it did,i.e at the WTF..he wasnt injured then,he was certainly fit enough to compete,and if he was hypothetically weight training like you've hinted by asking me how we know he doesnt do weight training then that would never have happened
People think Nadal was out and injured for the whole of 09,that is not true,he only missed 2 tournaments Queens and Wimbledon so Im sorry but your excuse that it was because he was injured doesnt hold up for me,plus its not consistent if your explanation as to how he would develop a physique like that is because of weight training
That in itself is a contradiction,because you'd be implying that his muscles atrophy while he is doing weight training....thats impossible

Muscle catabolization is dependent on other factors, not just training or lack thereof. Nutrition plays a role. Lack of proper nutrition can speed up muscle catabolization. Other factors like lack of sleep or lack of training (weight or cardio) also impact this process. You seem to focus on weight training and ignore other factors.

I still have not read this entire link, but hope to read it next week. http://josepharcita.blogspot.com/2011/03/guide-to-ketosis.html#33II

Veejay wrote:I was the one who started this debate with Ameritia,I asked him some questions (not you) you chose to join the debate
Instead of answering the questions I asked him,you decided to try and answer them by asking me more questions
All I did was ask you to give me a straight plausible answer rather then answer me by asking me questions which doesnt answer anything
Once again you have done that
Try for once to give an answer without asking one,can you do that?

No questions in this post, correct? (Is this a question, though? )

Laverfan,Im sounding like a broken record here...
You still have answered my question..why not? Why are you ignoring it?

"Muscle catabolization is dependent on other factors, not just training or lack thereof. Nutrition plays a role. Lack of proper nutrition can speed up muscle catabolization. Other factors like lack of sleep or lack of training (weight or cardio) also impact this process. You seem to focus on weight training and ignore other factors"

We are not talking about catabolisation due to lack of popper nutrition,we arent saying Nadal is losing muscle tone because of a lack of proper nutrition,I am specifically talking about catabolisation due to doing endurance sports which requires a lot of cardio.Sure your muscles can catabolise for some of the reasons youve mentioned above but the point here is that we are talking about athletes who are doing a sport which requires a lot of running,not about kids starving in Africa

Why do you keep twisting things around Laverfan,stick to the subject
Im still waiting for your plausible explanation to the questions I asked

laverfan wrote:
Where are you getting this virtual marathon notion from?

Here are some screen shots from the AO 2012 final. Notice the score on the screen. (No photoshopping has been on these. )

Distance for a point in the fifth set - https://imgur.com/qpvoo

Distance for the entire tournament - https://imgur.com/1mG2n.

We miss the key data here. How much have they run in that very match?

I am not surprised Djoko ran a bot more than Nadal in the tournament data. Nadal has had relatively easy rounds whereas Djoko has had to battle longer sets versus Hewitt, Ferrer and Murray, those 3 woudl have most likely send Nadal's running figures well above the marathon. Instead he had the help of Federer shanking a few rallies short!

noleisthebest wrote:Whether we are discussing if the draws are rigged, there is doping in tennis, or it's Friday today, some will always choose to believe that people are getting better, faster, stronger etc.
And while those people exist and pay for the tickets to see records broken, people being faster and stronger, there will be draw fixing, doping and Fridays will still be happening on Fridays.

Like the draw fixing where Murray is in Federer's half @ Shanghai 2012, while Nadal is absent.

noleisthebest wrote:What is the difference between Rod Laver and Rafael Nadal?

26 vs 70+.

noleisthebest wrote:The answer does not lie in the theory of evolution, that's for sure, it's in the good old Bible which says that the love of money is the root of all evil.

Do you pay for Internet access, NITB? Does your church ask for financial donations to help the poor and needy and homeless?

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:I dont think anyone really understands the main point here. Running is the best exercise to lose weight,its the best exercise to burn fat,if you have burned all the fat you possibly can and continue to do cardio that equals to running marathons your muscles will naturally start to catabolise.This is why marathon runners have very lean muscles and small frames

Where are you getting this virtual marathon notion from?

Here are some screen shots from the AO 2012 final. Notice the score on the screen. (No photoshopping has been on these. )

Distance for a point in the fifth set - https://imgur.com/qpvoo

Distance for the entire tournament - https://imgur.com/1mG2n

A marathon is ~26 miles.

Veejay wrote:Tennis is very much an endurance sport,playing grand slams can be compared to running a marathon,you could easily cover the same distance running,which is why most tennis players have fairly long lean muscles,they dont have such a muscular frame
If Nadal could catabolise his muscles like he did at the end of 09 why did he do it during the part of the season when he is doing the most cardio,ie the summer slams,why did it only happen towards the end of the season when he is doing the least amount of cardio
My answer for that is because his muscles deflated due to cycling down,this is what happened when you use steroids which contains growth hormones,it wont deflate while he is on the drugs or if the drugs are still in his system working ,only start to deflate around 3 months after he stopped cycling down
If the possibility to lose weight was always there he would have lost weight when he is pushing his body to the max not the end of the season when he is doing significantly less cardio

The corresponding nutritional intake is being ignored in this line of reasoning.

I believe I already answered that to Legendkiller,have a look above,15 miles...half a marathon-same difference ...is that not long distance running Laverfan?
So when are you going to give me a plausible explanation to the questions I asked?
It must have about a 100 responses by now since I first asked these questions and still nothing,why not,why do yuo keep dancing round the subject?
If you had an answer,then surely it souldnt be so hard to give it
Im not ignoring anything re nutrition,a marathon runners muscles will catabolise due to running marathons regardless of nutrition otherwise how do you explain a physique like this?

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=paula+radcliffe&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1154&bih=513&tbm=isch&tbnid=EqlIKCwMDMJ7TM:&imgrefurl=http://www.venividiblogi.com/2011_01_01_archive.html&docid=IupBpy-OaaAkYM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8RUq9xapio4/TSIklUSEYQI/AAAAAAAAA7Y/EARDbK1EJYE/s1600/radcliffe2.jpg&w=300&h=300&ei=ukN4UNW1CeqP0AXB2oAo&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=363&sig=113819094801944464436&page=2&tbnh=148&tbnw=148&start=14&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:14,i:223&tx=82&ty=72

Why is a physique like this consistent for most marathon runners?

Veejay wrote:Laverfan,Im sounding like a broken record here...
You still have answered my question..why not? Why are you ignoring it?

Yes, you are sounding like a broken record, despite what I have suggested as possible explanations.

Veejay wrote:"Muscle catabolization is dependent on other factors, not just training or lack thereof. Nutrition plays a role. Lack of proper nutrition can speed up muscle catabolization. Other factors like lack of sleep or lack of training (weight or cardio) also impact this process. You seem to focus on weight training and ignore other factors"

We are not talking about catabolisation due to lack of popper nutrition,we arent saying Nadal is losing muscle tone because of a lack of proper nutrition,I am specifically talking about catabolisation due to doing endurance sports which requires a lot of cardio.Sure your muscles can catabolise for some of the reasons youve mentioned above but the point here is that we are talking about athletes who are doing a sport which requires a lot of running,not about kids starving in Africa

Why do you keep twisting things around Laverfan,stick to the subject
Im still waiting for your plausible explanation to the questions I asked

Catablolisation occurs because there is no alternative source of energy for the body to rely on. And steroids do not provide a source of energy, do they?

laverfan wrote:

Do you pay for Internet access, NITB? Does your church ask for financial donations to help the poor and needy and homeless?

Ignorant and spiteful as usual.

Veejay wrote:I believe I already answered that to Legendkiller,have a look above,15 miles...half a marathon-same difference ...is that not long distance running Laverfan?

... so is 5KM, 10km, 20km, 42km... same difference

Veejay wrote:So when are you going to give me a plausible explanation to the questions I asked?
It must have about a 100 responses by now since I first asked these questions and still nothing,why not,why do yuo keep dancing round the subject?
If you had an answer,then surely it souldnt be so hard to give it
Im not ignoring anything re nutrition,a marathon runners muscles will catabolise due to running marathons regardless of nutrition otherwise how do you explain a physique like this?

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=paula+radcliffe&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1154&bih=513&tbm=isch&tbnid=EqlIKCwMDMJ7TM:&imgrefurl=http://www.venividiblogi.com/2011_01_01_archive.html&docid=IupBpy-OaaAkYM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8RUq9xapio4/TSIklUSEYQI/AAAAAAAAA7Y/EARDbK1EJYE/s1600/radcliffe2.jpg&w=300&h=300&ei=ukN4UNW1CeqP0AXB2oAo&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=363&sig=113819094801944464436&page=2&tbnh=148&tbnw=148&start=14&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:14,i:223&tx=82&ty=72

Why is a physique like this consistent for most marathon runners?

Marathon runners do not use their arms to wield a 300+ gm racquet and hit a ~56 gm ball at 90+ mph, do they?

noleisthebest wrote:

laverfan wrote:

Do you pay for Internet access, NITB? Does your church ask for financial donations to help the poor and needy and homeless?

Ignorant and spiteful as usual.

... or I do not belong a specific tribe...

If money is root of all evil, the whole world is evil. Remember that.

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:Laverfan,Im sounding like a broken record here...
You still have answered my question..why not? Why are you ignoring it?

Yes, you are sounding like a broken record, despite what I have suggested as possible explanations.

Veejay wrote:"Muscle catabolization is dependent on other factors, not just training or lack thereof. Nutrition plays a role. Lack of proper nutrition can speed up muscle catabolization. Other factors like lack of sleep or lack of training (weight or cardio) also impact this process. You seem to focus on weight training and ignore other factors"

We are not talking about catabolisation due to lack of popper nutrition,we arent saying Nadal is losing muscle tone because of a lack of proper nutrition,I am specifically talking about catabolisation due to doing endurance sports which requires a lot of cardio.Sure your muscles can catabolise for some of the reasons youve mentioned above but the point here is that we are talking about athletes who are doing a sport which requires a lot of running,not about kids starving in Africa

Why do you keep twisting things around Laverfan,stick to the subject
Im still waiting for your plausible explanation to the questions I asked

Catablolisation occurs because there is no alternative source of energy for the body to rely on. And steroids do not provide a source of energy, do they?

You havent given me a plausible explanation,asking me how we know Nadal doesnt do weight training doesnt give me a plausible explanation how someone can develop such a muscular physique without little to no weight training while doing that much cardio

Your explanation to the other question holds no weight cause Nadal wasnt injured at the time his muscles atrophied,plus when he was injured his muscles didnt atrophy and the link Legendkiller posted suggest it could have in as little as 2 weeks

" Catablolisation occurs because there is no alternative source of energy for the body to rely on. And steroids do not provide a source of energy, do they?"
Not necessarily,catabolism can be attributed to the type exercise too.Even athletes who are using the right diet and nutrition will develop a body that is consistent with the kind of exercise youre doing

laverfan wrote:
If money is root of all evil, the whole world is evil. Remember that.

AH! That type C logic is at it once again!

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:I believe I already answered that to Legendkiller,have a look above,15 miles...half a marathon-same difference ...is that not long distance running Laverfan?

... so is 5KM, 10km, 20km, 42km... same difference

Veejay wrote:So when are you going to give me a plausible explanation to the questions I asked?
It must have about a 100 responses by now since I first asked these questions and still nothing,why not,why do yuo keep dancing round the subject?
If you had an answer,then surely it souldnt be so hard to give it
Im not ignoring anything re nutrition,a marathon runners muscles will catabolise due to running marathons regardless of nutrition otherwise how do you explain a physique like this?

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=paula+radcliffe&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1154&bih=513&tbm=isch&tbnid=EqlIKCwMDMJ7TM:&imgrefurl=http://www.venividiblogi.com/2011_01_01_archive.html&docid=IupBpy-OaaAkYM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8RUq9xapio4/TSIklUSEYQI/AAAAAAAAA7Y/EARDbK1EJYE/s1600/radcliffe2.jpg&w=300&h=300&ei=ukN4UNW1CeqP0AXB2oAo&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=363&sig=113819094801944464436&page=2&tbnh=148&tbnw=148&start=14&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:14,i:223&tx=82&ty=72

Why is a physique like this consistent for most marathon runners?

Marathon runners do not use their arms to wield a 300+ gm racquet and hit a ~56 gm ball at 90+ mph, do they?

Laverfan your arguments are becoming pathetic,what does that have to do with the argument about a particular type of physique?
No marathon runners dont use their arms to wield 300+ gram rackets and hit 56 gm balls at 90+ mph,if you attribute this to the reasons why Nadal has such developed arms and biceps then why doesnt every single player in the draw have similar biceps or definition in their arms?
In fact looking at Federer,for someone who uses their arm to wield 300+ gram rackets whole hitting 56 gm balls at 90+ mph,his arms aren't that much more defined then someone who runs marathons.Now while I may say this I am not saying that automatically means a marathon runner has similar strength and skill in their arms as a tennis player

As for the distance covered,how much distance do you reckon a player covers from the start of a season to the end of the season if they are making the semi finals or better of every tournament they play is?
If the answer doesnt equal long distance running then what would you classify that distance as instead?

Veejay wrote:

laverfan wrote:Catabolisation occurs because there is no alternative source of energy for the body to rely on. And steroids do not provide a source of energy, do they?

You havent given me a plausible explanation,asking me how we know Nadal doesnt do weight training doesnt give me a plausible explanation how someone can develop such a muscular physique without little to no weight training while doing that much cardio

You can continue this eternal search for a plausible explanation without me. I have nothing further to add to the muscle catabolisation topic.

Veejay wrote:Your explanation to the other question holds no weight cause Nadal wasnt injured at the time his muscles atrophied,plus when he was injured his muscles didnt atrophy and the link Legendkiller posted suggest it could have in as little as 2 weeks

"Catabolisation occurs because there is no alternative source of energy for the body to rely on. And steroids do not provide a source of energy, do they?"

Not necessarily,catabolism can be attributed to the type exercise too.Even athletes who are using the right diet and nutrition will develop a body that is consistent with the kind of exercise youre doing

If you hit a ball with a racquet and do it repeatedly, I am pretty sure, arms build up, correct? I know of cases, where Tennis players can have asymmetrical muscular builds. Ambidextrous players develop slightly differently.

laverfan wrote:

Veejay wrote:I dont think anyone really understands the main point here. Running is the best exercise to lose weight,its the best exercise to burn fat,if you have burned all the fat you possibly can and continue to do cardio that equals to running marathons your muscles will naturally start to catabolise.This is why marathon runners have very lean muscles and small frames

Where are you getting this virtual marathon notion from?

Here are some screen shots from the AO 2012 final. Notice the score on the screen. (No photoshopping has been on these. )

Distance for a point in the fifth set - https://imgur.com/qpvoo

Distance for the entire tournament - https://imgur.com/1mG2n

A marathon is ~26 miles.

Veejay wrote:Tennis is very much an endurance sport,playing grand slams can be compared to running a marathon,you could easily cover the same distance running,which is why most tennis players have fairly long lean muscles,they dont have such a muscular frame
If Nadal could catabolise his muscles like he did at the end of 09 why did he do it during the part of the season when he is doing the most cardio,ie the summer slams,why did it only happen towards the end of the season when he is doing the least amount of cardio
My answer for that is because his muscles deflated due to cycling down,this is what happened when you use steroids which contains growth hormones,it wont deflate while he is on the drugs or if the drugs are still in his system working ,only start to deflate around 3 months after he stopped cycling down
If the possibility to lose weight was always there he would have lost weight when he is pushing his body to the max not the end of the season when he is doing significantly less cardio

The corresponding nutritional intake is being ignored in this line of reasoning.

what you don't know is that in the last 8 games of that match they clocked up another 15 miles or so